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Just starting running cameras on a new farm that I can hunt. I have a buck that is showing up on cameras but I am unsure on his age... I always struggle to age them this time of year. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

Everyone knows that mature bucks don't come to sadness spreader's during daylight hours so...

PS - sitO, you spend a TON of time on here spreading your "sadness", that must be why you haven't killed a deer in the last 5 years!

I spread no sadness...I'm Mr. Happiness don't you know?

hunt verb verb: hunt; 3rd person present: hunts; past tense: hunted; past participle: hunted; gerund or present participle: hunting 1. pursue and kill (a WILD animal) for sport or food. "in the autumn they hunted deer" synonyms: chase, stalk, pursue, course, run down

Definition of wild 1a : living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated b (1) : growing or produced WITHOUT HUMAN AID or CARE

As a quick response to your corn pile hate, this property is 160 acres and has NO food source. It's 100 acres of CRP and 60 of timber. So i went in and cut out an area in the timber to put in a food plot. Its been sprayed, mowed, burned and seeded. I've also been running the boss buck feeder for the last month with protein pellet / corn mixture along side the mineral hole I put in back in April. This is the scene of the photo...

Point being, I work all year long and spend thousands of hours and dollars to get the opportunity to kill a respectable buck. And if you think that I am not a true hunter because I have feeders out, that's your right. But I can assure you this, I do not kill big deer year after year because of feeders. I kill deer because I put in the work and time.

Jeff, unless you start wearing "Affliction" gear, Croc's, or "bling" jeans we can still be friends ;?)

When everyone has corn piles except sito, how do you expect him to have any deer?

Tell you what, I'll make you the same deal I've made others. Put trail cams on any of the aforementioned items in the woods, and compare the number of deer to the pics at the sadness spreader. If any one of them draws more I'll give you a shiney Benjamin ;?)

"hunt verb verb: hunt; 3rd person present: hunts; past tense: hunted; past participle: hunted; gerund or present participle: hunting 1. pursue and kill (a WILD animal) for sport or food. "in the autumn they hunted deer" synonyms: chase, stalk, pursue, course, run down"

'Technically' excludes sitting in one spot and LURING deer with a DECOY.

LURE: tempt (a person or an animal) to do something or to go somewhere, especially by offering some form of reward. "the child was lured into a car but managed to escape" synonyms: tempt, entice, attract, induce, coax, persuade, inveigle, allure, seduce, win over, cajole, beguile, bewitch, ensnare

We'll leave off the jokes about "chasing women."

DECOY: a bird or mammal, or an imitation of one, used by hunters to attract other birds or mammals. "a decoy duck" a person or thing used to mislead or lure an animal or person into a trap. "we need a decoy to distract their attention" synonyms: lure, bait,

Oh hell. There's the BAIT (or should I say Sadness or Failure?) word.

BAIT: food used to entice fish or other animals as prey. "herrings make excellent bait for pike" synonyms: lure, decoy, fly, troll, jig, plug "the fish let go of the bait" an allurement; a thing intended to tempt or entice. "she used the prospect of freedom as bait to trap him into talking" synonyms: enticement, lure, decoy, snare, trap, siren, carrot, attraction, draw, magnet, incentive, temptation, inducement; informal come-on "was she the bait to lure him into a trap?"

Bait, lure, decoy. We've come full circle now haven't we? So much sadness. How embarrassing.

Definition of wild 1a : living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated b (1) : growing or produced WITHOUT HUMAN AID or CARE"

'Technically' excludes every deer feeding on human grown crops in the state of Kansas from being wild.

Only for those that have self-righteously declared hunting deer over bait, I mean lure (wait I can't say that either) or rather decoying them by luring them with bait (wait is that corn or a decoy?) to be something they don't want to do.

Ever heard of a guy named Pavlov? Maybe you could look up the definition of Sustenance for us?

I don't need to eat the decoy sitO, I actually kill deer. ;-) Sorry. Too easy. I'll issue you a better challenge than your trail cam challenge: Put away your trail cameras and your video cameras and your compound bow and your decoys and spot and stalk and kill a mature whitetail in open country with a recurve w/o sights. I did it a much harder way than using decoys and trail cameras and compound bows. I'll put down a shiny $100 you cant do that my way this year. If you can't do it, you have to publicly admit to the bowsite that your way of hunting is full of sadness and failure statues.

By the way, I'd be thrilled if I lose. ;-)

Training animals to come to a pre-determined location is not hunting, and not hard to understand. Artificial baiting has the potential to abolish an endeavor we both seem to care quite a bit about, by painting our "sport" in a bad light amongst those who don't hunt. Couple that with chance of a catastrophic disease outbreak, that could certainly be propagated by congregation, it's just not worth it...my opinion.

You go through this thing one time, you get to choose your path. Heck it's legal here on private land(for now)...so do what feels right to you.

P.S. I grilled a little Pronghorn tenderloin last weekend myself, not hungry ;?)

I don't have straight pipes on my truck, and I've never used corn in Kansas. Though I have tried it with no success in OK. The refreshing thing is I don't judge my success based on the opinions of others. Nor do I care to insult the manhood of anyone who does it different. You should try it. It's liberating. I wasn't the one that started the definition game and started stretching it to fit your own definitions. But the fact that I am pointing out your hypocrisy seems to have triggered you. Sorry.

Your arguments about being dangerous to the sport are arguments at best. Given the constant complaining you also do about increase in non-resident tag sales, you're essentially breaking your own argument about it endangering hunting. Obviously, by technical definition, you're also training and luring deer to come into a location with your own form of bait, so that's false too. You think it's different, because LESS deer come in to a decoy than to a feeder? That's how you're choosing to define a hunt? You're so worried about defining how other people hunt, to fit your definition of what hunting is. And that's the whole point. Hunting is different for everyone. There are plenty that would accuse your method of not being hunting and you'd be absolutely convinced that they, too, were wrong.

Lets talk about introducing new hunters to the sport and lets look at how many tens of thousands of kids, myself included were hooked on hunting when they killed their first deer over a bait pile and decided right then and there that this was something they wanted to explore and enjoy in all its facets, forever. You going to tell me that they and their parents aren't hunting and that they aren't helping improve recruitment into the sport to keep it strong?

So I agree, you do it your way and leave others alone for doing it theirs.

Enjoy the pronghorn! Was it baited with a decoy? ;-)

Point is, you cannot train a wild animal to come to any of the other "tools" mentioned. In fact, they'll eventually learn that there is no "reward" and stop responding, but not food, they can't...does that make sense? I might be able to draw a picture later if it would help?

Baiting isn't "another method" of hunting, it's not hunting in any sense of the word.

Don't be sad.

If I hunt this too much though, I have learned the deer adjust their travel patterns when they know I am there. I asked above, don't they do the same with a pile of bait? They certainly play the wind when they access my food plots.

But yeah, the comparison doesn't hold water. LOL

"My way is real and yours is not, because my way is harder. But you're not allowed to use that argument against me because that's not fair."

au·dac·i·ty ô?das?d?/Submit noun 1. the willingness to take bold risks. "her audacity came in handy during our most recent emergency" synonyms: boldness, daring, fearlessness, intrepidity, bravery, courage, heroism, pluck, grit; More 2. rude or disrespectful behavior; impudence. "she had the audacity to pick up the receiver and ask me to hang up" synonyms: impudence, impertinence, insolence, presumption, cheek, bad manners, effrontery, nerve, gall, defiance, temerity; More

An analogy proposes that two concepts which are similar (A and B) have a common relationship to some property. A has property X, therefore B must also have property X. In a false analogy, the objects may have some similarities, but they do not both have property X. That way, both objects may have the same color, but this does not mean that they have the same size.[1] Even if bananas and the sun appear yellow, one could not conclude that they are the same size. One who makes an invalid analogy or comparison is often said to be "comparing apples and oranges".

The only way you can win the argument, is to impose your own misguided definition of hunting on everyone else. And that is why you will never win.

So your definition of X is the ability to KEEP luring deer to a certain location. That's how you define hunting, at least for this particular pending failure until you post in another 5 minutes with another attempt. Then false because multiple deer will come to a decoy during a set and have even left it and returned.

And by the way you just eliminated hunting over food plots, as well as hunting over crop fields, or even wild acorn trees or whatever else brings deer to a location repeatedly. Including Habitat's excellent example of a secure saddle.

Keep trying, or follow your own advice and own it.

And no it's not a debate over equivalency of baiting deer to deer hunting tools, it's a debate over whether or not baiting is hunting. You need to go back and refresh yourself on what your argument is. Maybe that will help you own it quicker.

"Jeremy can't understand the simple statement that baiting isn't hunting."

We may need to refer back to the accepted definition of hunt (see above).

Okay ready to continue? Definition of keep: 1) provide for the sustenance of (someone). "he had to keep his large family in the manner he had chosen" 2) provide (someone) with a regular supply of a commodity. "the money should keep him in cigarettes for a week" 3) own and look after (an animal) for pleasure or profit. synonyms: breed, rear, raise, farm; More: own and manage (a shop or business).

Definitions 2 and 3 are most applicable in this instance. Pick one.

This makes it so we are no longer considered to be hunting since the animals we are pursuing are provided with a regular commodity provided by humans. The crops you keep talking about are only available at certain times of the year and are available in abundance across the Midwest. Your deer can choose to go any cardinal direction and find food in the wild. Why would they, though, when you have a prepared meal for them that takes little to no work.

K, so now we're back to the fact that I've been making the same point all along, and you keep pissing in the wind because you're upset we don't think baiting is hunting. If that offends you, so be it. That's something you're gonna have to deal with, because life is hard and sometimes people say things that make other people feel bad. Didn't you mention snowflakes earlier?

Talk about false analogy. The irony in that is just... awesome.

The actual definition of the verb keep when used as in keep deer coming to a certain location.

keep k?p/Submit verb 1. have or retain possession of. "my father would keep the best for himself" 2. continue or cause to continue in a specified condition, position, course, etc. "she could have had some boyfriend she kept quiet about" synonyms: remain, continue to be, stay, carry on being, persist in being "I tried to keep calm"

When you put up a decoy and a buck sees it, he starts walking toward it and he does what? He keeps coming.

This is absurd now, but so comical.

So your first attempt to rebut the false analogy post has to be corrected because you caught yourself in a false analogy by comparing a continuing direction (verb) with a noun meant to describe something entirely different than anything we've been talking about. But hey at least you quickly attempted to correct yourself.

But yes, lets get back to the definition of hunting. The Merriam Webster definition of hunting:

Definition of hunting 1 : the act of one that hunts; specifically : the pursuit of game 2 : the process of hunting

Or how about just hunt:

1 a : to pursue for food or in sport hunt buffalo b : to manage in the search for game hunts a pack of dogs 2 a : to pursue with intent to capture hunted the escapees b : to search out : seek 3 : to drive or chase especially by harrying members … were hunted from their homes — J. T. Adams 4 : to traverse in search of prey hunts the woods

That's really all that needs to be said. It's clearly does not exclude any methods to achieve the goal.

You want to move on to wild because you hate losing and the hunt definition didn't help you so you want to claim you only hunt WILD deer and they're only wild because they don't have human intervention? (Like Decoys. But I digress)

Definition of wild 1 a : living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated wild ducks b (1) : growing or produced without human aid or care wild honey (2) : related to or resembling a corresponding cultivated or domesticated organism c : of or relating to wild organisms the wild state 2 a : not inhabited or cultivated wild land b : not amenable to human habitation or cultivation; also : desolate 3 a (1) : not subject to restraint or regulation : uncontrolled; also : unruly (2) : emotionally overcome wild with grief; also : passionately eager or enthusiastic

Now you're at the crux of the argument. Your BEST argument is that the deer are not as wild because they're coming to a human provided food source. And that's also unfortunately where everything falls apart. Because it's everywhere. So either give up hunting in KS because it doesn't fit your limitations, or accept that it's all just different methods of baiting and luring deer in a human affected environment. Some are easier than others, for sure. But it's all still hunting. Or just agree to disagree and then do everyone else a favor and keep your opinion to yourself.

You tell yourself that deer like decoys and camo and calls as much as they like cracked corn if that makes you feel good.

It's not the same and I've never said that it is the same, but it's still hunting.

And by the way, I've not killed a deer over a corn feeder since I was... 12. But it's very telling to see that people like you and Sito immediately make the assumption that because I accept that as a viable hunting method, means that is the method I have to use to succeed or feel good.

If you'd like to say that it's a different form of hunting and that it's easier, then we can agree. (At least partially, because I've never successfully killed a mature deer over corn since I've been an adult, despite trying some. ) But you would then be contradicting your original statement that technically baiting is not hunting.

You want to push legislation to change it, more power to you, but what's the point of coming on a post with a guy that has a pic of a feeder and joining in on the 'failure pile' bashing? You think that's helping your cause?

And I'll take exception to the staring at a feeder comment since I consider my children to have a conscience, and some of the best times we have had have been spent sitting in a blind staring at a feeder. When my father got me into hunting, he was smart enough to take me where I was guaranteed to see deer and enjoy the experience. I'll do the same for my kids, thank you. And yes, it's still hunting.

It is a choice. That's the point to be made this whole time. Now please leave others alone when they make a choice different than yours.

What's the point of me debating it with fellow hunters? I guess just the fun of it. I like to argue. And lose badly obviously. But in all honesty, I think lots of people around the state read this stuff, and that may have more impact than me, a nobody, lobbying to a state representative that only cares about what makes the most money. Which is baiting. Why do you feel such a strong urge to defend the honor of the baiters out there? If I want to publicly divulge the fact that I'm an outspoken jerk, shouldn't I have that right just like the old boy coming up from Louisiana has the right to pay 3K to shoot a booner over a pile of corn?

I'll raise my kids how I want, and hunt how I want. Thanks.

Not to change the subject but how many of us non-residents were issued 2 buck tags again this year? That means I can shoot one over my failure pile and one in the tree next to Sito while he's on his 100th day on stand. ;)

Keep arguing boys until someone's deemed the winner.

People know where deer bed, they plant a 1 acre foodplot, they set a couple stands for different winds and can cover the entire plot with a compound, crossbow, ml, or rifle.

Why do you wear camo? To hopefully blend in and beat the vision.

Why do you wash your self, your clothes, and spray down with scent killers? To hopefully beat the nose.

Why do you sneak to a tree and try to be quiet? To hopefully beat the ears.

Why do you hunt water? To hopefully be there for the desire to drink.

Why do you hunt acorns, apples, planted crops, or bait which you placed on the ground? To hopefully be there for the desire to eat.

People hunt soybeans, move to acorns, follow the milo,..deer love sunflowers and standing corn.. i have waited 3 seasons for the property to get back to milo which i will hunt this fall.. i dont need corn for my bait..i prefer standing milo.

Deer drives by rifle hunters kill more deer than any cornpile.

Jeff, i noticed how you mentioned that the Feds ban the baiting of migratory birds.. You do realize it is legal to plant a crop, then flood that crop and hunt it..many people raise and burn standing wheat in a strategic location to shoot daily limits of doves.

Foothold traps for Raccoons are "Baited".. It is also legal in Ks to bait Turkeys..

Are we just trying to ban baiting of deer? Or all animals which we hunt with a bow, since this is a bow hunting forum??

"There is currently no known treatment or eradication method for CWD, so preventing the introduction of the disease into new areas is of utmost importance to the health of local deer herds. Baiting and feeding deer tend to concentrate deer at small point on the landscape, often with the trails leading to the feeding sites resembling the wheel spokes of a bicycle. Anytime animals are concentrated at this type of "hub," the likelihood of disease transmission increases in a deer herd. More alarming, the transferring of CWD prions to healthy deer is not the only concern. Diseases such as bovine tuberculosis, foot rot, and fungal infections; and a host of detrimental parasites, including exotic lice, flukes, mange mites, lungworms, and barberpole worms are transmitted more efficiently when deer are concentrated in a small area, especially around feeding stations."

So, not only does baiting make you weak...it has great potential to make the animals we pursue weak...don't be weak.

If there was just one would it matter? Would it make it "ok" until an outbreak, or the death of "X" number of cervids? We don't even know what CWD prions can do to humans at this point...if anything...but is it worth a chance? Do you know why CO, KS, and other states are taking core samples of brain tissue from infected areas? Do you care about your family or friends or other humans in general?

Tell me Forrest, why do you bait?

25 years ago no one baited and this never happened. And the success rate was much lower back then and hunting pressure was half of what it is now.

Should be a huge market for a corn price comparable deer feed which doesnt cause acidosis.

If you guys think that deer in MY area flock to feeders, you are very confused. There are more feeders in any given section of land in NE KS than you have in your entire county! Majority of the mature deer are creatures of the corn. That is why I generally do not get pictures of mature bucks until the corn gets cut. But i am sure you guys know that already...

The feeders are not the problem, the limited cover in our area and the overall deer density is the problem. You guys out west have no idea the number of animals we have around here! I bet more deer get killed by cars in Johnson county than rifles out west!

But I know that you will have your thoughts and I will have mine. So, to bring this thing full circle, I asked about a deers age. I never said I was going to hunt this animal over a feeder or at all for that matter. Chances are I will not even pursue him because he is to young.

So i guess that makes me a trophy hunting, master baiter with no conscience that HAS to take the easy way out. =)

You just keep doing what you do and I'll do the same.

You don't "have to take the easy way" ...you choose to.

You guys put your helmets together and see if you can come up with more excuses to justify your shortcomings...it's quite entertaining.

Snowflake