Deer Management 101
Wisconsin
Contributors to this thread:
Do not harvest yearlings. After only the first year, everybody will be shooting bigger better deer, EVERYBODY, even you.
This falls out by simple logic. If no one shoots the yearlings, all the bucks harvested will be adults ... 2.5+ YO. This would be self sustaining.
Every year after it will keep getting better and better. There is no downside.
After year 1, just as many bucks will be harvested as before, even more.
Ever notice how the guys who shoot the yearlings complain/justify that they never see any big bucks? They actually shoot plenty of big bucks, only they consistently do it a couple years too soon. In order to harvest an adult deer – first and foremost – it has to exist.
At 3.5 YO the bucks around here are usually 200+ pounds. So it doesn't have to be about the rack. You would need to shoot that yearling and a doe to get equal meat. And it would be more trouble to get.
What have you got to lose? What do you claim is the advantage of harvesting an adolescent? Take a 2.5 or better YO doe instead. More meat than that yearling.
Every deer can be harvested only once, make the most of each.
Hear! Hear! Hard to get everyone to think this way though!
I agree, not one reason to shoot a fawn.
First people would have to stop shooting fawns, and since that is way too much to ask for many "hunters", getting them to lay off yearlings is a pipe dream.
RJN, do you know what a yearling is?
Not everyone's situation is like yours. So your perfect answer may not be theirs.
IF you trying to improve the age structure on the land you hunt AND you actions will not be nullified by the neighbors, then, yes, passing 1.5 year old bucks creates 2.5 year old bucks next year. In some areas passing that 1.5 year old buck creates an awful slim chance of him becoming a 2.5 year old.
For those where family or other obligations means they measure their hours in the woods in hours not days, holding out for a 2.5 year old on heavily hunted public land is "never gonna happen".
For those who hunt the right deer habitat and spend days or weeks in the woods. Letting the little ones pass, makes a lot of sense.
Which of those two groups do you think has more hunters in it?
DoorKnob, for many years a lot of people have called deer that are in the first year of life, (fawns), yearlings. I understand though what you are trying to say though. Holding off on younger deer get you older deer. Nice, but hard to tell young hunters with few or no bucks to their name to hold off on antlered deer. I try not to tell people what their standards should be as long as they are legal.
Why would anyone care what size deer someone else filled their tag with?
First of all I do not agree, and I will tell you why,,,,,explain where you hunt, and what your winter conditions are........ I am a big fan of John Ozogo, retired 40 years wild life manager for MI and a specialist for the UP.... to be honest in severe snow country you would be better off shooting off the fawns,, than you would any buck or mature doe,,,,,,,,
that is never going to happen, but that is a fact
I also consider a fawn a yearling. I also agree I'm not shooting any small doe (could be a nubbin) or a small buck. I'm looking for a buck 3 1/2 or older.
However when I was young 12-early teens any deer was a trophy to me. I was super excited just to see a deer. I would explain to a youngster that we don't shoot obvious fawns with momma, but any small buck or doe it's go time for them. When they get that 1st small buck or doe it will hopefully be a memory they never forget and make them a lifelong deer hunter.
Also depends if your hunting private or public. I know my choice as to what to harvest. But some people are happy with whatever. That's fine....more time in the tree for me
Razor- I've heard that theory before and am trying to understand. If you shoot all the fawns where is the future deer herd? How does a doe become mature and produce fawns?
I don't think Razor was saying shoot all the fawns. In high snow country, or in the instance of a harsh winter, I would assume fawn mortality rate would be higher than that of mature does and bucks. If one was hunting for the purpose of filling the freezer, shoot the fawns that already have a high natural mortality rate, and let the mature deer with a better chance of survival walk. I have nothing to back this up personally, but it appears to be a sound theory if the numbers show mature deer have a greater chance of survival.
Grunter- there are obviously exceptions to this theory. We let all young bucks walk on our property, but of course a young hunter, especially for their first deer, can take whatever they please and I will be just as excited for them as they are. Anything that keeps the younger crowd into the sport is worthwhile.
Its true, not all locations and properties are created equal. Depending on predation, neighbors, and harsh climates, it may be hard to let a 1 1/2 year old buck walk. However, I don't feel using neighbors that shoot everything is a justifiable reason. If a hunter is happy with any deer and has no interest in antler size, by all means, harvest whatever you please, and its still going to be an awesome experience! But if the worry is that "well if I let this young buck walk, the neighbors will just shoot it anyway"........it doesn't really matter does it? The chance for the buck to grow up was just taken away by your decision before the neighbors even had a chance to get a shot at it.
Its personal preference, there is no right or wrong answer. I just know that a dead young buck is dead regardless of how it died. Maybe the one young buck that you chose to harvest would have been the one that made it after the neighbors, predators, and snow killed the other 3 in the area.
Do as you choose. Hunt legal. Don't concern yourself with what others do.
I think most people already use their own APRs and deer age/size restrictions. Some just hunt for the meat and the younger deer work fine for them. Everyone has choices.
Yes, Razor is talking about taking off the surplus that wouldn't make it through because of limited carrying capacity.
Better in your freezer than getting weak during a deep snow event and an easy dinner for the wolves. Make the wolves work for their dinner.
You should harvest no more than 10% of each year class to properly manage the herd. This being said, it is impossible to correctly know what the herd is because they are mobile. I have never made anyone pass on a deer they want to harvest nor looked down on anyone who harvested a fawn. They are an easy target and the smile on a new hunter's face tells the story. Hunt safe and legal, harvest what you want and be proud of it!
Whatever it is, be happy. Once the arrow sets sail. there is no taking it back. I care more about ethical shots a hunter takes vs what age class they take. I'll pursue them in the way I choose.
The OP makes too many assumptions.
Isn't "no more than 10% of each year class" going to depend upon your age structure and carry over. Hard and fast rules, often may your life hard but not better.
If 90+% of the deer die each winter, taking 10% will be hard to do. But if you do it, then 100% are dead. Next springs fawn crop will not exist. And next years hunting would be unproductive.
It also depends upon recruitment. If a doe has 2 fawn each sprint and they all make it through the winter, then cropping of 10% will cause your deer population to nearly triple each year. That is not a good scenario either.
Per48r- 10% aren't going to make it anyways so why not just "harvest" that surplus 10% rather than going to wolve, coyote and eagle food?
How do you know it's going to be a hard winter? We typically don't see descent snowfall until Dec. We also don't have wolves. If someone shot a fawn and said it was going to die anyways I would think they were joking.
You can't stockpile deer thinking that will help in a bad winter. The higher the deer population, the higher the percentage of winter kill will be.
That is what so many do not understand about the north, you can not stock pile deer'''''
what allows deer to survive a bad winter, is going into winter in good shape, and no, that does not mean, having a belly full of corn,,,,,, deer need wood, its that simple, they need young growth, and they need decent yards, and that old big doe, will stay off the wolves, or anything else, if she can have a chance, to go into winter, in good shape....
Its all about habitat, but no truer words were spoken, than what skook, just said
Ding ding ding!! X2 skook
What's up with this 90% talk on deer dieing in the winter? lol
I am always amazed that some people truly do not understand deer management, especially effects of hard winters and habitat. Just a few years ago after a couple of hard winters, we lost a lot of deer, especially one age class, yearlings. That age class carries through for years. No one can predict how severe the winter will be but with years of data to establish carrying capacity numbers we know roughly what level the population should be going into winter to keep the high crashes from happening.
In reading some of the posts above it seems like horn porn is still on a lot of hunters minds. If that is what you choose to do, it's your hunt, do as you please. Just don't expect others to feel the way you do or try to persuade them into thinking how they hunt is wrong. I'm just as happy for the guy who shoots a fork horn as I am for the guy who shoots a 140+ class deer. Now with that said, I am not advocating shooting every young deer on the landscape. You as a hunter need to manage the resource.
Good post Konk. I might also add that those discussing winter kill in the north have valid points but do remember the north is not a homogenous landscape. There are small parcel subdivisions, large parcel subdivisions, cities, villages, small farms, logging and in some areas plenty of people. Deer can do well in these areas even in the severest of winters, mainly due to plowed drives, wildlife feeding, gardens, etc etc. Yes, in the big and remote woods, many many deer die, even in mild winters, but some areas, especially subdivision herds fare pretty well. I think that is why hunters always have vastly differing opinions of how the deer herd is doing in the Northwoods, it simply is highly variable.
Deer don't die in mild winters due to weather. It takes a pretty bad winter to cause winter kill even when the population is drastically over healthy numbers.
Missouribreaks, I have lived and worked in the north all my life. I know the area well and with some education and work experience, I understand the dynamics of herd population here. Yes, there are some cities and farms but large parcel subdivisions? Around the cities there are some deer that do well due to the feeding. Logging areas will help if the logging is happening all winter so the skid trails get deer to some browse but after the sale is over and if deep snow deer cannot get to all the food possible for survival. Some homes feed deer but only a few actually benefit since supplemental feeding often is not done correctly; many issues such as proper nutrient balance, the timing of food, calories spent to get to the food, calories spent fighting other deer, etc. There is a lot of areas in northern Wisconsin that is big and remote.
I have seen deer die in isolated pockets in winters that were not classified as severe. Remember, snow does not fall in a uniform pattern all across the Northwoods, which is why hunters should not reach grandiose decisions based on what they experience on their "forty". I have seen 10 inches of snow fall by the Willow while none falls in Manitowish Waters. IMO, hunters should stop making huge generalizations, then speaking as if it is fact all across the Northwoods.
I realize that Smokey, I lived in that area for over 40 years. Hunted, fished and trapped from Ashland to Land of Lakes , to Gleason and Ladysmith. I broadened my horizons and moved on. Great area is the Northwoods.
South Farm, what assumptions?
Missouribreaks, I agree that hunters should not make "huge generalizations". Deep snow, prolonged cold, snow crusted or not make for variations. Not long ago deer were managed by units somewhat defined by highways, rivers, landmarks, habitat etc. but now divided by County. I think it is better to manage at the small level and land features but...
So … ya see … this is how it is ….
Two guys. Lets call them: Q and Z. Each gets equivalent packets of seeds bestowed upon them. Q decides without foresight to just cook them up and eat them for the little they provide now. Z instead cultivates them.
Lather rinse repeat.
For years in the future Z reaps redoubled rewards while Q sucks wind.
Q whines and complains that he has not, while Z rides the gravy train, and feels he has been wronged/shorted.
Tis true. Albeit by his own hand.
Q, it is up to you what you do with your next packet. Please don't let yourself - and everyone else - down … again.
Be Z.
That is all.
Ps, not shooting an old gray mare has never in all the history of the world (recorded or otherwise) produced an adult buck in less than 3 years. Even then, given the fawn sex ratio it is a 50/50 crap shoot and the average lag time becomes six years minimum if he survives recruitment and all else!!
Yearlings that don't get shot (if they survive all else) are an adult buck next season. Go figger....
First off yearlings are not the same thing as a fawn. I'll shoot yearling does all day long. Second, shoot what you want but don't complain about it. Third, stop trying to cull bucks in WI. Not gonna work. I think most people claiming to shoot cull bucks are using it as an excuse to shoot small bucks....just stop already.
Carrry on....
DK, You forgot the ending. Where Q complains to his legislator that he doesn' t have the same opportunity anymore that Z does. Z is a have, Q is a have not. So said legislator then passes legislation to level the field for Q to have what Z has.
Alas, they only way to level it is to take away from Z, unless Q is educable, so that none have.
Who is in on this management 101 ? I'm thinking the gunners for sure . The pulley poppers and cross gunners probably will have to be in also . Basically all guys that squeeze a trigger can live the draining life sucking burden of management 101 . Lets pop a cork and celebrate the idea of limiting ourselves in a backwards way . I mean everything is OK , any method , no limits , except lets limit what you can shoot ??
Did you really think about it before you made that decision?
Shooting 'any' deer that comes along that you happen to have a tag for is NOT any sort of management.
Management requires cognitive application of intelligence to the science, based on good data, TO A GOAL.
What is your herd management goal? Not your "I'ma hunter and I'ma gonna shoot something" position.
The distinction between deer herd management and any hunter's behavior is similar to the difference between global climate and local weather.
That aside .... I have yet to hear anyone say they would prefer to have the youngest possible age distribution in the herd they hunt and what they harvest, even if they refuse to admit they would like to harvest older deer but are not willing to behave in a manner consist with facilitating that result. Let everyone else do it for me. What a stand up kinda person.
Harvesting only mature deer will result in exactly the same number of deer in the herd, as well as harvested, as the current practice, only difference being all deer harvested will be older and bigger. I do not see any merit in the idea of doing otherwise. Got some? I have yet to see a logical argument against managing for an older herd. Got that?
If someone has an issue with population goals that is clearly a separate AND unrelated issue to age structure management. Just about the only management thing that can effectively affect population is the doe harvest. Notice I didn't say 'antlerless' ( because of the nub kill). You wanting more deer in the heard is no reason to shoot any yearling. Want less deer, shoot an old doe. Still no justification to shoot an adolescent male .
WDNR apparently considers primarily ONLY goals regarding population. Control it (mostly) or prevent it's demise. Nothing about the quality of deer regards older larger individuals per tag filled.
Management for adult harvests can harmoniously layer atop whatever the population goals are. Only difference being that the herd will consist of older and larger individuals, increasing the harvest per tag filled - to each and every harvested deer across the state. Yes, even your county, town, and back 40. This also helps the herd survivability in a harsh winter. That yearling you pass on will survive the winter and come out in better shape than fawns, who hurt most with increased WSI, facilitating a quicker recovery of the herd.
So what exactly is the well reasoned goal based herd management argument FOR killing off yearlings? I'd be willing to hear it. We all are.
In a completely unrelated matter, anyone know where I can find a unicorn?
"What is your herd management goal? Not your "I'ma hunter and I'ma gonna shoot something" position. "
I'm guessing lots of people hunt for reasons that don't include any herd management goals, especially those on public lands. Many are 9 dayers who simply want to hunt with family and friends a weekend or two and get some venison for the freezer. Nothing wrong with that because people do hunt for different reasons.
...and even those people would benefit from proper management.
Doorknob, you got it nailed!
Thank you addict. Pass the pipe I am running out!!
I think bottom line, a hunter is going to do what a hunter wants to do. If they don't believe in trying to create a more mature herd, that's alright. Whatever makes a hunter happy, good. I'm glad I have the neighbors I do ;)
The flaw in your "system" is that you are only moving harvest pressure from 1.5 years old to 2.5 years old. there would be no increase in bucks older than 2.5 year-old.
Smokey, I disagree with that because there are less 2.5's and they are more wary and harder to kill than 1.5's. The first few years would see lower harvest numbers but it wouldn't take long at all to build in an older age structure. This is why having something like a min spread would help to ensure the 1.5's live.
I know, I know, don't tell me what I can and can't shoot. Blah blah blah. There I said it for you so you don't have to. Some like how it is, some see how easy it is to make things even better.
Unless enforced, most people are going to do what they want anyway. The topic is a nice discussion point but that's it. Most on this board, being avid bowhunters, already have their self-guided rules and APRs. One is simply preaching to the choir on this board. You have 600k of rifle hunters to convince and that will NEVER happen. I'm sure there are also bowhunters out there who don't hunt in high density deer areas who are happy with any kill (and they should be).
One should actually consider shooting 1.5yr does versus older ones because the older ones will typically carry more fawns and take better care of their fawns.
I agree with Smokey,,,,, think about it, you do not own or control enough land to control the general age structure of a herd....................
However I can tell you a better solution, and its one I like, and I see the difference in the woods,,,,,, if not for hard winters and wolf harassment which causes lots of stress, I like MI rules on deer........
You can shoot 2 bucks any weapons if you want, but one needs to be a 3 and the other a 4, on one side,,,,,,,, a lot of guys jump at that, regardless if they get any bucks, and I have seen better deer in the public woods because of it.....
The smart part of their plan, is they still allow the one deer tag, legal spike or up, but so many jump on the 2 buck license, which most do not fill.....
Wis allows 2 bucks, but they are weapon specific, which never made any sense to me, dead is dead,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Crusader Dad, if the 1.5 year bucks are protected then how can there be less 2.5 year bucks? My point is you will just be shooting off the 2.5 so there won't be many to move up to older ages.
Around here there is not always a big differance in that one year age.
This is an interesting discussion so let's keep it going. Some good thoughts here. Here are some things to think about. I have a few bucks over 200 lbs. A few P&Y bucks and a lot of nice racks that are a bit shy of P&Y. Some of those were 5.5 year old bucks and over 200 lbs. dressed. What is it you are looking for? A deer over 2.5 years of age? Over 200 lbs.? A P&Y or B&C buck?
What gets me going is big body deer, not the rack size,,,,,,, Both org are great, but when you need a score, to satisfy your hunt, you are missing out.......
What I was trying to get across was that there are less now but if we pass the 1.5's there will be more 2.5's in a couple years. More of them will make it to the 3.5 and older class because they are smarter.
I like seeing lots of deer. I like shooting a doe. What really gets me going though is a big bodied big antlered older buck. I think if you took a 1.5 skinny basket rack 6 pt and put it next to one of those big bodied 3.5 bucks with 115 in of antler 95% of hunters would choose the big one. They just aren't willing to hold of pulling the trigger on the young ones. They prefer instant gratification and usually shoot whatever walks in front of them. It's not their fault, that's been our states culture for years.
Get what your saying Shane. I agree with that too. There are a lot of hunters who care about score. Like razor said about big bodied bucks. It's almost mesmerizing seeing a big ol cow with antlers working his way across a swamp. To me they are so elusive I almost have to pinch myself to see if I am indeed living it. :$ I chase that feeling all season long.
I agree that if two bucks, one basket and one larger most would choose the larger but that is a rare occasion. Usually, the first buck that walks by is shot even if they know there are larger ones out there. Many of us on this site would likely hold off but we are not like most. Especially gun hunters.
I tend to go more for a larger bodied deer knowing that it is an older animal with more experience, (smarter?). Not necessarily higher scoring rack. A 4.5 regardless of antlers size is still an older buck But is that what a lot of people are thinking when asking for age or antler restrictions?
I think the antler restriction guys know that the older bucks tend to carry bigger racks. To me (someone who supports a min spread restriction) I think any buck over 3.5 is a trophy and if you can kill a 5.5, that's something to really be proud of no matter the rack size. This would benefit guys like me who want a horse with a decent rack and possibly a very large set of antlers as well as the folks who are simply looking for the biggest rack they can find. It will also benefit Joe Shmoe because there would be more deer on the landscape and who doesn't like to see lots of deer? We keep our population in check by killing does.
This is why Buffalo co is so good. It's not forced on them but they get it. They have a healthy herd, good age structure and healthy deer. Everyone benefits. If everyone "got it" like they do, almost our entire state has the same potential as Buffalo co.
Ole logic like some are preaching are the main reason Wisconsin's deer herd is shit. My area I would say 90% on all 1.5 year old bucks are shot. Due to the old timey "if it has horns". Shoot wolves, one problem solved.
All the older age classes would have greater populations eventually because for any given age class some survive the hunt each year. Given that after the first year the population of 2.5 will equal more than what used to be harvested as 1.5, many more 2.5 will sneak through to 3.5 and so on.
Doorknob, it has been tried and proven that you will limit and not recruit to more older age class with the next age harvestable. You will still only see a few and lessening in each age class. I like big bodied deer but are all able to judge size with equal skill?
Minimum spread; what is the minimum? What if areas vary in typical spread?
I like to see deer, I do not need a steady parade of deer since I hunt big woods and usually don't see many in a day but I know deer are there since I scout and know the habits. In truth, I only need to see one deer, the one I shoot ;-) Seriously though, I do enjoy watching the deer that I don't desire to shoot. You are right that we control the population by doe harvest so there will not be more deer by limiting age class. Hard winters and predators are a big factor there.
Age the buck in this trailcam photo. Shoot or no shoot?
Most accurate aging is by teeth I suppose. But for this ... I'd guess 2.5 min on that one making it an adult. Good looking body structure/mass and the white is pronounced around the eyes and nose which around here is on the matures not yearlings. Also I have never seen a yearling with antlers that far outside (wide) of the ears.
For me, I pass on the land I "hunted". That would be a legal buck for 100% of the people under my rules though. He's a big deer though and I think he's 2.5
I'm guessing 2.5 too. Rack goes up, then out and into Y shape, rather than out and up. Body has muscular form, without any belly sway or sag. Nice deer and many would get real excited and shoot right away. Would be more of a stud in another year. Some depends on area he's in and genetics, as to how he measures up. Taste of the meat may be better than an older deer, though.
nice big buck, nice day, in the big woods, I would take him in a heart beat,,,,, nice photo
some guys get it, some guys don't,,,,,,, glad I get it
Razor, good points. Style and how you're hunting may impact your decision to shoot or not as well. Big woods, on the ground, ect vs private, lots of ag, out of an enclosed blind may make a big difference. Or preserve, game farm, etc. Many factors in satisfaction from a hunt.
+1 razor!
Nice buck and I don't think twice. I shoot him.
Smokey, I guess him at 3 or 4. I am guessing a northwoods deer that lacked the spring nutrition during horn growth that seems typical in your neck of the woods. Here in Rock county, the rack alone would indicate a 2 year old, and possibly a yearling, even though he has a bigger body. A shooter deer is a personal thing. If I was hunting up north, I'd consider him. Hunting here, he gets passed.
It is very personal and up to the hunter. For me he gets passed also.
So on or about exactly 5 pm opening day I plugged in the spare chest freezer and headed out to a stand. Had to sneak up into it with an antlerless only 30 yards away. Had to freeze every time it looked around. I was very pleased with myself for pulling that off.
Various furry critters ambled along and wandered around. Passed up all the yearling bucks and antlerless. The heat was nuts, walked out shirtless and hunted in only under pants and socks.
One doe went on alert for why I don't know and the yearling 6pt went scouting upwind to see what she was on to. He went almost to the house and encountered 3 big coons who seemed to want to stand their ground but one at a time he convinced them to head off into the swamp. He lowered his rack down at them as if to toss them which helped their decision process. Just before 7 two new old does came grazing along - sort of materialized in the prairie grass. They had to have either been bedded right there or managed to sneak up on me across over 200 yards (unlikely), followed by the adult buck.
He got to my distance marker and was met with stainless razor blades. Came right at me, went right past showing me the fletches poking out of his heart lung area ... then went half the way to the house and veered off the lawn only to briancase himself breaking off a 4 inch tree branch. Piled up right there. So my season was about 2 hours. His was about 20 seconds. Now I need to buy a gun buck tag, which can be filled with a bow.
Worked like a maniac to get him off bone and into coolers. Sweating the whole time. I had made several half gallon and gallon ice jugs last week. I didn't get the inside loins cooked until after 1 am. I actually forgot to take them at the end and had to go back out to the garage to get them.
And I know, I need to get a photo up.
"I love it when a plan comes together"
"I love it when a plan comes together"
Doorknob, looks like you're the first to report taking a deer this season, congratulations. We're waiting for a picture,...as you sort of stated. Again, congrats! Way to go!
Way to get things done, doorknob! I shot a doe last night that came in for a drink of water. 23 yard shot with my compound, 40 yard recovery. Shot was a pass through with a Ramcat mechanical which are new this year. Quartering away, caught the front of the belly and came out the lungs. I heard her pile up, so I got down quickly. Had to put another arrow in her because she was still moving. Had her skinned and on ice last night, butchered this morning. Tomorrow with be my first hunt with my longbow from the ground. Hopefully I can send a Strickland Helix true for my first traditional kill.
Thanks case. Do I win the office pool?
You get an "ATTABOY" for the day!
Hey!! My first attaboy !!
FYI, five "ATTABOYs" = A Gold Star! (Then you've really got somethin'!)
ATTABOY Doorknob.......thats two.
Pretty soon this might amount to sumptin!
All it takes is a pail of magic apples ... actually I didn't place any, there are trees right there. I just picked some for the photo :)
Good for you. Looks like a nice rack. Any idea of his age? Weight? .....wait, scratch that, it doesn't matter. A nice bow & arrow buck taken, I believe, under the rules of fair chase on opening weekend. Way to go!
Fair chase for sure. And not really worth measuring. The guy helping me to the point of getting the hide off wanted no part of weighing him. I didn't even take a photo till days later.
"Now I need to buy a gun buck tag, which can be filled with a bow."
My understanding is that yes a gun buck tag can be filled with a bow during gun season, but can not be filled with a bow during archery season. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that.
Congrats on getting it done DoorKnob.
You are correct HunterR. It can be used during gun season.
Yup. 19 days of using that gun tag on a bow buck.
The down side to this management thing ... bow season got real boring after opening day !!
well at least at the end of the season you wont be holding your empty tag. Ive been there