NYT Article on Staten Island Deer
Connecticut
Looks like there are in the 800s now. . .
This is my favorite quote "“A family of females is social,” he said, meaning they travel in a group. “So after I shoot one, the others will watch her tip over. They learn pretty fast that this bait ain’t so good.”" And that my fellow hunters is exactly why deer quickly learn to come to bait at night. It's because we teach them to do so.
From the NY Times article:
“The city oversaw 720 vasectomies last year, when the project launched, and they estimate that about 92 percent of the sexually active male deer on the island were sterilized.”
No, they didn’t; remember, White Buffalo requested the City Parks employees be removed from the vehicles they used. Further, as you can see below, the procedures were performed in the field-no Parks Employees were there to oversee ANYTHING.
“After you dart a deer, they can run three or four hundred yards before it’s going to be down,” Dr. DeNicola said. His team operates on them where they fall: in industrial parks, cemeteries, or near the side of the road.
In the past, Dr. DeNicola and his team would sometimes carry the deer to a car and then drive them to a trailer for the surgery, before releasing them where they were knocked out. So far this year, his team has performed all the operations in the field, which he said is easier on his team, both logistically and physically.
So, what we have is a private contractor removing oversight, allegedly performing procedures in the field away from prying eyes and then reporting numbers that to this date remain unconfirmed.
We also have the contractors reporting of 78 yearling bucks sterilized which would place the deer herd at between 730-860 at most, nowhere near 2,000 plus.
At present the “photographic evidence” of each deer sterilized has yet to be presented.
Is this like BigFoot? Staten Island,.. deer ? Ya they take the commuter rail in for the rutt right?
Belchertown, incase youve never ventured past the demarcation line, heres kinda sorta the skinny on this touchy and confusing subject in a nut shell...
Denicola runs a non profit hunt for hire sniper orginazation called white buffalo (coming to a woodlot near you,if not already there)..with numbers manipultion and naverious tactics they doupe communities on deer density numbers on the premise of exterminating ticks at taxpayers expense...the magic 8 ball is consulted on a deer kill number. When that number is reached the hand of payment is greased..studies are conducted,the all knowing eye of sauron is again consulted on the ever growing number of ticks with less deer of middle earth and the struggle begins anew..at again taxpayers expense...for the good of the people
Wait a minute! "Hunt for hire?" They're killing these poor deer on Staten Island??? What?!! The article says they're sterilizing them. This is clearly more liberal media "fake news." Has to be. Right?
If someone wants to pay me 3 million to sterilize bucks I'd gladly rip some nuts out period.
I'd like to know how it is that they can track a buck 300-400 yards through summer vegetation.
Then I'd like to know why a deer hit with a dart would run a quarter mile, unless they're chasing them down somehow... Maybe with drones??
And how is it that an arrowed deer that runs 100 yards is a traffic hazard, but a darted deer that runs a quarter mile is not.
???
Pretty sweet gig, though, considering that this has such great, long-term profitability baked into it. A job that will never be finished....
Coffee break time.
Spike. Nuts remain intact. If they were ripped out, they would be neutered, testosterone levels would drop and they would not engage in mate-guarding or breeding behaviors. The vas deferens are removed surgically thus preventing sperm from being passed from the testicles to the urethra and hormone levels remain unaffected.
GF. The darts are barbed and contain a small radio transmitter that can be tracked with radio telemetry equipment. His point was that once deer are hit with a dart, they can travel some distance before succumbing to the drugs. They do not chase them and there are no drones involved. If you chase a drugged animal you run the risk of the adrenaline countering the effect of the drug and then you have a partially drugged out deer stumbling around with a $250 dart in its rump posing a threat to public safety. You approach a darted animal just as you would an arrowed one, downwind and cautiously. An arrowed animal you presume would be dead when you approach it. Darted animals are always alive and often behave unpredictably, particularly if they only received a partial injection. The issue is not really the arrowed deer posing a threat to public safety in NYC, it’s the arrow that poses the perceived threat.
Doc, why do they want the bucks to have testosterone? No point is their?
Lunch hour. They want the bucks to have testosterone so their breeding behavior remains unchanged. They still rut and do everything they would do otherwise, just shoot blanks. A neutered buck would be uninterested in breeding and would just take up space and allow fertile bucks to do all the breeding. So in that case, the one fertile buck would likely impregnate every female, if all other bucks were disinterested. Where competition and social hierarchy exists for breeding, that is not the case. It’s not like the bucks know they are sterile. They are just doing their thing as if nothing were different.
https://youtu.be/zF1oXOitedE
Off the clock now. Glen. You are under the misperception that WB is a government agency and has to answer to you as a taxpayer. They are not working for you and don’t have to “prove” anything to you, me, or anyone here. They are currently working for the taxpayers of NYC of which I presume you are not one. Please explain to the readership how WB sterilizing 78 yearling bucks “would place the deer herd at between 730-860 at most?” Given that, the 2016 Deer Program Summary states on page 15 that the statewide yearling/male fraction was 35.8% in 2016 for shotgun/rifle season. On page 26, it shows that 2,446 bucks were taken during shotgun/rifle. That means 876 yearling bucks were taken in 2016 during shotgun/rifle (2,446 * .358 = 876 yearlings). Given this information, can you please tell us how many deer there are in CT?
Scott,
Under NY law, WB (White Buffalo) as a contractor for the SI Parks Department is required to provide information under FOIL, the New York version of Connecticut's` FOIA.
I have no interest in anything but a discussion of the facts; lets stick to those and lay them out:
This project was designed with Parks Department Employees riding along with WB to provide oversight. Literally just before the project begins that oversight is removed at the request of WB.
Those are facts Scott, not in dispute.
Here's another fact:
The NYT article quotes Sarah Aucoin, chief of education and wildlife for the city’s parks department as stating that they (the Parks Department) "oversaw 720 vasectomies last year". Given that the Parks Department employees were removed from riding along (by WB) this statement is false.
What is factual is that the Parks Department cannot vouch for anything other than a handful of deer that have been claimed to be sterilized actually having been captured; this despite assurances that ALL deer would be photographed. Again, these are facts; you know, those things that have tangible, physical evidence that can be examined by you, me, or anyone on the block.
Doc - are you seriously justifying spending taxpayer's money and NOT having any oversight on the validity of the numbers being presented?? NYC should be demanding full oversight of all of the work being done, including a employee documenting each deer that is fixed. And is it a good idea to have the fixed bucks RETURNED to the island, NOT removed, and have them CHASING doe all over the island?? You know, the CROWDED island you described where deer/car accidents are the main concern. So the only thing NYC gets for the $2mil+ is a bill from WB. The deer are still there, the deer/car incidence is still an issue, and in a few years the herd will return to current levels or higher, unless you want to pay another few million to WB. Quite the racket WB has going. Can't blame them though, it's the STUPID politicians to blame!!
I want to clarify that I think sterilizing deer, is a horrible idea. I despise what it means for the rest of us if it works - setting a precedent that a community that doesnt want the act of hunting to be done, could decide to spend money to have a group come in and do this, is brutal to me. It does feel like wasted money as well - and while it's not my money if it's totally paid via NYC folks - it still irritates me because it just feels like a really bad management choice.
I dont know SI very well, but my hope would be that a system including archery / xbow hunting could have done some damage to the deer herd there... Situation wise it would be really hard given human population and lack of understanding of that population towards hunting.
Just being clear that I think this is a bad idea.
But, it's happening. So if I look at it from the other side, it feels like oversite would not be best done via literally witnessing every single task. The park would have to literally have employees constantly with the sterilizers and that means they would have to pay more per deer "fixed" than they already do. Seems like an even worse way to spend money. Possibly a legal issue as well thus requiring more insurance cost for the parks or WB, again, increasing cost.
Can't oversight be accomplished other ways. It has to be in other activities. I mean, there are health inspectors that may check out a couple restaurants a day, but that may mean any given restaurant my only see an inspector 1X year or 1X 2 years or whatever it is. Paying for an inspector to be at the Kung Pow Palace daily would be hugely cost prohibitive, and the actual inspections would lose quality as the inspector started "knowing the drill" and thus glossing (unintentionally) over things they may see if the situation was new. Feels the same way to me on this. Big additional cost to NYC to have someone there constantly.
Hey, I think the whole thing is ridiculous, dumb, and as noted earlier, stooopid... I just dont see the conspiracy or illegality of it. Bad ideas are often implemented by the public and politicians, especially in areas they have minimal real understanding. Doesnt make it good, or validate it... Just noting it happens. Then again, I dont hunt SW CT at this point and thus perhaps should just say nothing on this subject.
Will - simply solution. Give the contractor serialized ear tags and put a statement in the contract that each tag must be videoed while being affixed to the deer. All unused tags must be account returned. Cost - about $100 for large SD cards for the cameras.
Lunch hour. Well Glen. That’s between NYC taxpayers and their contractor. Not you. Not me. Not Bowsite. If you feel empowered by FOIAing NYC as a CT resident, knock yourself out. Why don’t you take a ride to Staten Island and count how many tagged bucks you see? So you think they are down there, running around the city, darting animals and not actually sterilizing them? Why would they do that? That doesn’t make sense. I am still bewildered by your previous statement “We also have the contractors reporting of 78 yearling bucks sterilized which would place the deer herd at between 730-860 at most, nowhere near 2,000 plus.” The fact that you are able to estimate deer abundance based on a handful of captured and sterilized animals is pretty incredible. And why do you believe in the “contractors reporting of 78 yearling bucks sterilized” but not the 720? Do you have photographic evidence of those 78 deer or does using that number just come up with the number you are looking for, which is 200-300 more than VisionAir counted BTW (http://www.silive.com/news/2016/07/staten_island_deer_count_2016.html)? Can you do the same for CT deer where WB is not working? So if you want to talk about facts, you have no proof of anything, just more conspiracy and resentment. Right?
Bob, why would we need video documentation of each ear tag? Remind me again what the incentive is for WB to make up numbers like Glen does? Additionally, the ear tags are serialized. They started at 1 and according to the NYT article, are up to at least 804. That means if they got 720 sterilized last year, they got at least 84 so far this year (804 – 720 = 84).
Doc - 804 tags handed out, 350 thrown in the trash, 200 put on bucks,.......you get the point? Didn't really think I needed to spell it out for you. Why video tape the process? PROOF! When I pay someone a couple of million dollars (THAT'S A COUPLE OF MILLION DOLLARS!!!! Damn that's a lot of money) I don't think it's too much to ask for PROOF that you're actually providing the service that we paid you for, is it? What's the incentive for WB to inflate the numbers? Tony D will say "NYC, this is only going to slow the process for a year or two, with this many deer you really need to consider a repeat visit or even the use crossbows by our trained marksmen. Of course, that's a bit more expensive, so plan for a $4mil bill to exterminate the deer." Tony continues - "What's the NJ, you have the same problem? Let me count your deer and give you the real number. Let's see, where's my multiplication table???"
After Jdrdeerslayer bagged 2 deer in Redding in like 2-3 sits I ain't listening to Glen anymore lol. Just kidding Glen.
I didn’t say that that is how they were keeping track, I said the tags were serialized. How they are keeping track is between them, you have nothing to do with it. Nothing. I am not sure why you guys are making such a fuss about this. You are making up stuff with no basis or proof cause you don’t like it. You have zero say, stake, or money in the matter. Nor do I. You just cannot fathom that one firm can capture over 800 deer in 7 months and sterilize every last one of them. WB did not seek out NYC to tell them they had a problem. They put it out to bid and WB got the contract. If NYC is not happy with the work, I am sure they would terminate the contract, but that is not going to happen. Bob, do you have to video every tape measure that you screw together? More tape measures = more money. . . Remember, follow the money. . .
Scott,
Try to follow along; any citizen has the right to request information under Freedom of Information whenever tax dollars are involved-ANY CITIZEN. As to 78 yearling bucks and 720 deer I haven't said I believe either number; you see Scott, that's where the oversight or corroborative evidence comes in. WB removed the oversight and WB has provided only a tiny fraction of corroborative evidence.
Try to stay on point here Scott; the topic is SI, WB and the lack of any supporting evidence of the number of deer sterilized. Bob already covered the issue with serialized tags; it does not guarantee serial application of the tags; that's again where the photographic evidence would have come in handy. Bear in mind Scott, it was WB that offered photographic evidence in lieu of direct oversight by SI Parks Dept employees; now again Scott, those are all facts not in dispute.
Perhaps you'd care to explain why you feel a contractor's promises should not be the yardstick they're measured by; I'm sure everyone here would love to hear that excuse.
And Scott, this is your thread so please try and stay on topic with just the facts.
Coffee Break. Glen, do you have any “supporting evidence” that there are not over 800 deer sterilized on Staten Island? As I said previously, if you feel FOIAing state and city governments empowers you, then knock yourself out. You certainly have done it plenty with me and my agency. Have we been anything other than fully cooperative with your requests? So again, you do have “facts” for what you are claiming WB is doing or not doing, right? Otherwise, you have nothing but a keyboard and an unproven conspiracy theory. Remember when you KNEW that WB’s aerial survey contractor was flying over Fairfield instead of Redding in some attempt to deceive the state and its hunters? The “fact” was in that case, that you were unable to properly interpret latitude and longitude coordinate pairs which were clearly stamped on the video feed, which you obtained from me via FOIA. I am intrigued that you too now are suggesting that a certain firm’s aerial survey underestimated Staten Island’s deer herd. You said by your “math” that the 78 sterilized yearling bucks “would place the deer herd at between 730-860 at most” and she said there were 527 deer on Staten Island (http://www.silive.com/news/2016/07/staten_island_deer_count_2016.html). So, while your “math” is nonsensical, her surveys clearly underestimate deer herds by your own admission and “math”, so perhaps WB really just has captured and sterilized over 800 bucks? Wouldn’t that be the simplest solution instead of the craziness you guys are concocting based on fake “math” and no “fact” whatsoever? Again, whatever arrangement the City of NY made with WB is between the City of NY and WB, not you, not me, not Bob, not Bowsite, just those two entities. Why do you feel that WB needs to provide you with photographic evidence of captured and sterilized bucks in NYC being paid for by the NYC taxpayer nickel? Because you pay taxes in CT? Sorry, it doesn’t work that way.
Is there anyway of finding out who the other guys were that bid and what their bids were...usually the high/low bid gets canceled out then figure out from there...
Scott,
Once again you just can't seem to stay on the topic; pay attention this time-we're discussing SI, WB and the lack of oversight or, in lieu of that oversight the photographic evidence WB assured the SI Parks department they would provide. Those are the facts we're discussing Scott and those alone.
Once again, try to address these facts:
1. WB removed SI Parks Department oversight at the last minute
2. WB assured the SI Parks Department they would provide photographic documentation of every sterilized deer; to date that number is about 30 out of a claimed 804.
3. The claim made by Sarah Aucoin (SI Parks Department Project Coordinator) about "overseeing all 720 deer sterilized" (the number at the time she was quoted) is FALSE (see #1 above).
Now if you can manage to address the facts above, great; by all means, please do. I'm still waiting for your justification for a contractor not living up to the terms of their contract, either as originally written or as amended.
You see Scott, the only question that really matters is were millions of dollars spent on a project that had oversight removed and has not had promised confirmatory evidence provided?
The answer to that question is YES.
You initiated this thread Scott; no one here was talking about it, you wanted to bring it up. If you don't like the direction the thread has taken you have no one to blame but yourself. FACTS, Scott......just the facts.....
End of lunch hour. NYC seems happy with their arrangement with WB as they are still out there sterilizing deer as reported in the New York Times. So if WB removed Parks oversite from the contract last minute, doesn’t that mean they are not violating the terms of that agreement? Do you think they need to be babysat by Parks staff all through the night into the morning as they capture and process all these deer? They have like 6 or 8 guys working there now. Does each one of them need to be babysat by a Parks employee? Why? Who is going to pay the Parks staff overtime? Where is that money going to come from? Why do you care? What stake do you have in this game? You are not a NYC taxpayer. It’s not your tax money. This is how NYC decided to spend their taxpayer money and they seem fine with it. You are a resident of an adjacent state. That's a FACT.
Scott,
Removal of oversight was permissible with the consent of both parties; SI Parks consented when given assurances of each sterilized deer being photographed; that would constitute program oversight. Pay attention-THIS STIPULATION HAS NOT BEEN COMPLIED WITH.
I'm glad you asked what my stake was in this Scott; let me clarify; EVERY TAXPAYER has a stake in this (see graph "State Health Agency Funding by Source"-note a sizable chunk comes from FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS!)
It doesn't matter what state you live in when it's FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS-and that's a FACT!
The proper term is "THAT'S A FACT JACK!" airrow - I think Doc has a problem understanding that the local, state and federal governments don't make money,.....they take it from you and me. I tried to explain this during his "waste of time tick study" and got no where, so save your breath (or fingers). Let's say Doc is hiring a contractor to strip the 2 layers of roofing shingles, replace any bad sheathing, drip edge, flashing, ridge vents, soffit vents, and install a new architectural shingle, top of the line. The price is $2 mil because it's a huge roof with several valleys, spires, curves, and junctions. Now, since Doc's house is 3 stories high he can't see any of the work being done on the roof. What Doc is saying is that he would trust the contractor to do exactly what's in the contract because we all no everyone is honest when it comes to money. There's absolutely no reason why someone would cut corners, use less then specified materials, poor workmanship, etc. I don't see a problem with that ;<)
Again, what does it matter to you if a subcontractor in a different state is in or out of compliance with their funder? That seems to be between the two parties involved in the signed contract and not with a private citizen in a different state. Again, NYC seems pleased with the arrangement as WB is actively working and sterilizing deer. They must be doing something right. Clearly the “problem” you are trying to highlight is not really a problem.
It is good to know where state health agency funding comes from. It is too bad it is not applicable here as the funds are coming from the NYC Parks Department and not the Health Department.
“The city Parks Department will pay White Buffalo and DeNicola $2 million this year to perform hundreds of vasectomies on Staten Island bucks as a way to curb the borough's out-of-control deer population.” (http://www.silive.com/news/2016/06/anthony_denicola_staten_island.html).
This is why Sarah Aucoin, Chief of Wildlife and Education at the Parks Department is the spokesperson for the project. So again, you have no say in what goes on for deer management in an adjacent state as your tax money is not being used. Your only recourse is to write in capital letters in frustration on Bowsite.
Bbb,labor only $110 sq...go over $250-300 sq...tear off $300-$350-+sq..+cost plus...(rotted facia,freeze boards ect) $20sheet of plywood..+ height fee(nobody see that) aggrivasion tax (if i sense your an a hole)..sounds like an old victorian probably around $20,000..give or take..usually give...lol
Bob. I don't disagree with Glen's post on state health department money, but the PARKS dept is running the show, which makes his point entirely moot. If SI residents and city officials are seeing bucks without ear tags, WB is not doing their job. If virtually every buck is tagged, they are doing their job. Easy as that.
NY State receives about 33% of it's total funding from the Federal government. In the case of the SI program we would be looking at approximate - $1,000,000 over three years in Federal funding.
Bottom line is there isn't a single line item in any state's budget that doesn't have federal dollars in it.
That's great, but the City of New York's Parks Department is paying, not the State of New York. Try as you might, you're not paying for deer management in NYC. City taxpayers are.
Wow,
And here I thought economic ignorance was confined to Hartford and our legislature.
OK, here's the "paint-by-numbers" version so maybe everyone can follow along:
States receive funding from the Federal government.
States apportion out funding to every city, town, village, whatever, usually in 2-year budget cycles (in addition to the obvious fiscal obligations of the state being funded).
Each of those entities then develops their own budget for the various departments and programs/services they offer/provide.
The question isn't are some of the dollars flowing into the Staten Island Parks Department of federal origin; the obvious answer is yes. The only question is the exact breakdown (or ratio of Fed/State) of the dollars going in.
Somebody remind me again who it was that was clamoring for an update on Staten Island? Probably the same people dying for population estimation threads......
If you wallow in the mud with hogs expect two things to happen; 1)you'll get dirty and 2) the hog likes it......
You got me Mike. You have shown us irrefutable proof that Glen is fully funding non-lethal deer management on Staten Island. He clearly should be dictating the terms of the contract. Thank you for clarifiying.
Looks like they're up to 875 sterilized now.
