Bowsite.com

But the devil is in the details . If I'm a nonresident looking to spend a week hunting in a mid Atlantic state and I dig for details here are my options for picking a state where I have a chance for a BC buck utilizing data from last 5 years . Here are my options :

KY- 201 BC bucks OH- 204 BC bucks WV- 15 BC bucks

WV data utilizing the .00066 per square mile and total sq. Mile of WV. If we are happy with that along with decreasing license sales each year keep doing the same thing. If we want to try and be more competitive and try to slow the decline of license sales or perhaps increase license sales then maybe try something different.

This is how a NR would pick data apart in looking for a place to hunt BC bucks.

Again , I'm happy we're getting publicity but we have to be aware of details because I can assure you that potential clients(license buyers) look at the details before choosing where they want to go.

So here's my question , do you keep doing all the same things and hope something changes or do you change what you are offering to see if it can slow rate of decrease, stabilize it, or hopefully increase sales?

Before someone says it I'll say it, yes license sales are down in all states but ours is worse.

You can just say it's the economy keep your fingers crossed and hope it gets better. Or you can do what a smart business does and change your product to be more competitive in the marketplace .

The one thing I don’t understand about why everyone who supports a one buck limit always mentions KY and OH but says we can’t count PA because of too many hunters. Well why do we count KY and OH where in KY 97% of the land is private and OH is 97.5%. Little Ole WV has twice as much public land as either KY or OH and WV is only a little over half the size as either KY or OH. I would think that would have something to do with the results - heck even more so than them being a one buck limit state. Pretty sure when we start comparing forest to ag land the percentages are pretty much different as well - why don’t we figure those things in to the results instead of just saying its because they have a one buck limit? I mean wouldn’t you think you would have bigger bucks when you basically have very little public hunting land? I know here near me - we pretty much have bigger bucks on the private land compared to what is up at Sleepy Creek.

JR - your hunting on your private land up in Pendleton county and decide to pass on a young buck - would you give that buck better odds at surviving then a young buck you would passed on at Sleepy Creek???

Yes, we have a lot of public land but latest survey shows only 6% of hunters are hunting National forest or state lands.

Resident. Nonresident. Total

2004

WV. 288,098. 174,657. 462,755

KY. 349,951. 54,534. 404,485

OH. 426,856. 17,723. 444,579

2017

WV. 219,990. 141,825. 361,815

KY. 353,098. 100,058. 453,156

OH. 394,598. 99,873. 494,471

We've lost about 35,000 NR while KY has doubled their NR sales And OH has went from well less than 20,000 to almost 100,000

These are USFW numbers. It appears that KY and OH are gaining hunters especially NR hunters and we are losing both. In my humble opinion they must be offering something we are not offering.

And again numbers that do matter such as private land to public land gets ignored.

JR - didn’t you kill a pretty nice one on your land last year? Let me ask you this question then: do you think a buck could survive longer on all that private land in KY and OH or on the twice as much public land WV has?

Only thing I am trying to point out is these one and doners try to make it seem that the reason for the monsters bucks of KY and OH is because of the one buck limit - all I am saying there are many reason for it. And I can tell you this there are places one buck limit did not make a difference and there are places where there is a multiple buck limit and they equal or excel over KY and OH.

KY and OH both have depressed areas from the downturn of coal. They also have much bigger urban areas where the population probably doesn't hunt much either.

I'm not going to say it's one thing or another because I feel there are several reasons, but numbers are fact and the fact is we're loosing resident and NR hunters at a fast pace and KY and OH are gaining NR hunters at a fast pace . People can deduce what they want from the facts.

Whatever the reason is WV has lost about 30 some thousand NR hunters in that time span while KY and OH have gained about 130,000 in that time span.

20 years ago hunters were concerned with quanity , today , if given an option they appear to be more concerned about quality.

Some parts of the country simply produce bigger deer than others. Each state, regardless of regulations and hunting pressure, has areas that grow bigger antlered deer at maturity than other parts within that state.

I recently watched an episode of Grant Woods' online show, Growing Deer Tv where he talked about how and why he classified mature deer on his farm in Southern Missouri. He classified mature deer as 4 +. He felt for his habitat that MOST deer expressed their full potential by age 4. With that being said, the racks are not what most people would expect to see on a mature deer in the Midwest. 120-140" on average probably.

With that in mind I was talking with a friend who runs a lot of trail cameras within a mile or two of where I live and hunt. With a couple years of history, we are very confident that they have 5 bucks on camera this year that are at least 4 and one is 7 (neighbor has sheds from when he was 5 and they measure right at 118" with a conservative spread estimate) all based on camera history. Largest of these bucks is probably only 120". Knowing their ages, it is clear to compare back the pictures and see the different body characteristics as they have matured.

Reducing buck limits may or may not change anything. If it is true that most people hunt private ground and most people are killing fewer bucks. Would changing the limit have that great of an impact? I don't know. Just raising the question. It is very possible that the age structure isn't as bad as people think... they just assume it is because they haven't been educated on identifying an older aged buck and simply judge him by a smaller rack?

Not taking a side either way, just offering g additional thoughts.

Next - let me tell you why I have major concerns about some of the numbers you have provided. Not that I am saying anything wrong about you but it is from where the numbers are gotten. I believe you said in an earlier post that Ohio has a higher hunter density than WV. And if you look on some info that QDMA provides I believe OH is like at 12 hunters PSM and WV is at 10 hunter PSM. Now lets look at the numbers you gave gave from the US fish and Widlif page for 2017 Ohio at 494471 hunters and WV at 361815. Now for those that don’t know Ohio 44,825 sq miles and WV is 24038 sq miles. I am going to round off right now so I get for OH 494/45 =10.9 hunters and WV 362/24=15 hunters PSM . Why should I believe QDMA? And onc again lets look at the NR hunters number - yes WV has loss some numbers I will not doubt you there but once again WV being about half the size of KY and OH and we have over 40,000 more NR.s coming here to hunt! You really want me to take the drop serious to say oh its because of the quality of our deer! Just not buying theory and still believe our license sales drop is because of loss of Jobs and a population that is old and dying off. And again - 8 states have declined in population and if you look at th numbers a majority of them have dropped in hunting licenses sales. Prove me wrong.....

But low and behold a one buck limit will change everything for us. And again prove to me that the other factors in OH and KY such as basically being all private and much more ag land, with tracts of land being larger size ( you know that as you move west land tract sizes increase) - are not key factors in buck size - let alone pretty sure the subspecies of Whitetail is different as well.

JayD, iDK where the hunters per sq. Mile data comes from. QDMA has told me they rely on each state for providing data for their annual report but iDK for sure.

I just know our R and NR license sales continue to decline for WHATEVER reason but any business person will tell you that if you have a 13 year trend of decreasing sales it's probably time to do or offer something different in order to try to gain back some market share.

As said before, areas within each state vary greatly, so I don't think it is fair to try an mimick any other state either. Can we study them and possibly take some of their best practices? Sure. But I don't think we can say to do this or that just because it is what another state does.

I see a couple of things... if our age structure and heard health improved, therefore creating more mature deer in that 120-140" range all across the state and not just the 4 bow only counties, then I think that would draw more non resident hunters back to WV.

At some point does it make sense to bring back the earn a buck system to get more does killed? It seems the younger generation that is into "management" buys into shooting does more so than folks used to, which is good but there again numbers are down so it isn't having a large enough impact.

This is only my guess... but I am assuming the crossbow season is not adding that many new hunters and most are just existing hunters that are switching over from a vertical bow?

WV is also battling declining revenue on an already tight budget and limited NR officers to be out enforcing game laws.

Gobbler has said it best, after 13 years it is time to try something new. The very definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over expecting the same results. Hunters may not like change and may or may not agree with what they are, but hunters don't agree with everything now..

Let’s look at NR sales - yes OH and KY have show great increases and should they not have - if you go back and look at the numbers I think one had less than 20,000 NR hunters and the other around 50,000! Where wv had 171000! So we have lost some NR - I think about 30,000. Do you really think since we are half the size of those two states the numbers should be like that? Now throw PA in the mix and I forget what the numbers were 15 years ago for NR hunters but if I remember correctly it’s something like 122,000 Now. Once again are WV numbers looking that bad? So why have PA and OH declined in resident hunters? One and done sure doesn’t seem to be looking so good for that?

Yes I would love to see a increase in license sales again but one and done in my opinion will hurt more than it will help. And I have been in favor of the earn a buck program for years.

I am just saying that we can look at other states until we are blue in the face and whatever they have done or have going on doesn't match WV enough for it to really help change anything for the positive. Whether it is OH, KY, or PA.

Among the reasons you mentioned, I would include competing demands for our time as reasons people aren't hunting as much also. Too many smart gadgets, sporting events and things like that are taking away our kids from hunting like they used to and in turn also taking their parents with them.

So, we can do things to help turn that around but I personally see it as problems that will continue on this path. So, how do we adjust our regulations, bag limits, and license fees to work around the problem? Maybe that is a reduced buck limit for both residents and non residents, even if it isn't equal. Possibly using the earn a buck system more. As Gobbler stated above though, we are killing more bucks than does which is not good for the heard structure and health.

Would more advertisement for the hunter's helping the hungry program help? Maybe? I know people that don't like shooting does because they don't need the meat and don't put any effort into finding anyone to give it to.

On the flip side of that, let's say you have 20 hunters who kill three small bucks a year to feed their families. That is 60 dead bucks. If you reduce the limit to two you save 20 bucks and reducing it to 1 saves 40 bucks. So, those hunters then have a choice to kill more does or buy meat for their family. Even if they kill 1 or 2 young deer, there are still many more that live another year. That creates diversity in the age structure. That along with a more balanced buck/doe ratio would create a more intense rut and better hunting experiences I believe.

As to killing more bucks than does - we are not the only state with this problem . I believe KY pretty much has the same problem. Whats the answer is - I don’t know. I agree that before killing a second buck I would love to see the earn a buck program in place across the state. I just don’t think saying since we are not killing enough does then we should not kill so many bucks is a very wise decision either. Heck I would love to see our gun season shorten by a week myself and maybe have a 2 week muzzleloading season to be truthfully with you - If i recall more does are shot during the muzzleloading seasons than what bucks are harvested.

Maybe with some kids new technology is a problem but with my daughters and pretty much all there friends - even though they all have smart phones- that is not the problem. My youngest daughter has gymnastic practice 4 hours - 3 days a week and she is on the varsity squad of the high school cross country team. They practice each evening after school except for the day of a meet and they also practice every Saturday. Let alone all the other clubs she is in. Oldest daughter does not do sports but she pretty much runs a babysitting service and also works on helping with donations for the local woman’s shelter. Both are in the honor and gifted classes at school and have homework constantly. Most of their friends have the same type of schedule. Way back when I was in school - our schedules were nothing like this and I played year round sports and started taking college courses my junior year of high school - but my weekends were mine. It is not that way now. Lets talk about Football - those kids will be playing their regular season games thru about the end of the first week of November and then if they make the playoffs it could possibly go into December! Not much time to hunt there! So do we do like Virginia does and have some form of a doe season in until March? Wish I knew the answer!

i'm willing to come down and try for a couple does and see what the weather feels like if someone wants to host maybe point me to some public areas nearby, I cover all the costs and fees and don't mind talking about hunting and fishing the whole time,I'm more worried about out of state plates and getting tires slashed things like that..

There are out of stater's that did come to WV bow only counties, years ago, that don't now due to finding what they seek closer to home. its not the quality of deer that stops them now. It's more likely due to less hunting, easier hunting to get those bucks closer to home, and less access. The absolute bottom line that no one mentions is that most of our neighboring states have increased their quality of bucks, through better nutrition and less hunting pressure versus 35 years ago and, those people are never going to come back. Simply because they can get what they seek closer to home and, in terrain that doesn't average 70% slope. That's the reasons for it and, no buck management is going to change that. For these reasons stated.

Resident sales are down due to an aging and decreasing population. Not one bit of that has an ounce to do with the deer quality we have here.

wv_bowhunter is on to something too. Most hunters truly do not realize they are killing deer that are older than they think sometimes. Unless these deer are living around agriculture, their racks and body size depends 100% on the condition of their woods environment 365 days out of the year. Bad winters, low precipitation rates in the spring and summer, stress, bad mast years, etc... all lead to deer not fulfilling their 'potential". It isn't genetics. affecting our deer size. It's nutrition, age in some places, and based on factors we simply cannot control. Throw in a herd size that is simply too large for best habitat and, you get what we got.

This isn't going to be fixed by regulations of decreasing buck numbers. Because that really isn't the problem statewide. Check in data backs that up. There just aren't that many people killing a second or third buck.

Another problem keeping us from maximizing our deer herds potential is that every time the average hunter doesn't see as many deer as they think they should, they bash the DNR for liberal doe seasons. Four years ago, 90% of the men on this board whined like babies because the deer had a bumper acorn crop state wide and, they weren't seeing them. These are men who claim to "know" deer management. Yet, they have an off season and whamo, our DNR is a bunch of dumb heads that just want to slaughter the deer. In bed with the insurance lobby, etc......

So, what needs to be done first to increase our horn quality, likely isn't going to change in anyway because hunters simply do not understand forest ecology. It is multifaceted but, on the wildlife side, hunters need to flat out shoot the pee out of the does. And, keep doing it until you have an environment that will healthfully support the deer you keep. And, keep doing it to maintain that. However, We've all heard and seen what happens when "bubba" deer hunters don't see the number of deer it takes to make them happy. So, that isn't going to happen even if the DNR got on board. Because guys won't shoot them based on their opinions.

Its complicated. And, I know many here think I am a loud mouthed idiot because I don't play patty cake with the cool crowd. But, I'm not here to play patty cake. I come here to discuss WV deer hunting. And, while it is pretty much the norm to jump on the outsider, many here have expressed they don't really care about any of the defining things. Instead, they choose to believe what they think. Well, numbers don't lie. And, the numbers say that we do NOT have a problem here in this state with deer hunting. You just simply can't get mustard from turnips fellas.

We are never going to grow deer like KY, OH, VA, etc... Because, outside of the western part of this state, we do not have the same playing field as many of these states or, big parts of them do. So, until we see the harvest data suggesting that we are killing too many bucks, it is simply a feel good idea. I agree, we do need to kill a lot more does. And, do it every year. But, that isn't likely to happen either because most hunters I talk to say there isn't enough deer as is. God Bless

HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE KILLING ANY BUCK BECAUSE THEY HAVE TWO MORE BUCK TAGS IN THEIR POCKET?

As far as habitat, yes the coal fields has poor habitat in relation to some areas. But, if you would be fair when you read my post, you would see where I stated age was the limiting factor in some areas. Also, those area of good habitat are private land owned by many different individuals. Yes, a blanket buck reduction would likely work there with some success. That reality has not been dismissed by anyone.

I don't know how hunters kills a "sub-par" buck because they know they have multiple tags. However, the last time I checked, the DNR estimated about 300,000 licenses sold statewide. Somewhere around 70,000 bucks are killed during firearms seasons plus, the allotted numbers from archery and muzzle loader, depending on the buck ratio. So, while not all license holders hunt deer, it appears to me that some where around 30% of licensed hunters even kill a buck. I'm sure that number is low but, with no way to account for the actual number of deer hunters in the state, its all we have to use.

I sent you a pm Cory.

God Bless