Any Age to hunt proposed !
Wisconsin
I guess this is for the dad of youngsters who want another buck tag. I need to get me some more girlfriends and make some more tags ASAP !!
I dont see any reason for it. Personally I think 10 is to young for the mentored gun hunt. I have mentored for 4 yrs know for 10 thru 14. Its nice to be in the woods with them at 10, but my experience is they were still to young to shoot properly in most cases. My 10 yr old grandaughter hunted for the 1st time this year and I am kinda glad she didnt get a shot. She did enjoy herself which I thought was great. I just think next year will be more fitting for her. Same thoughts for my grandson when he was 10. Most kids nowadays come from the city life and not much gun use. I always have them shoot the 22 alot when the come up for weekends,so they are decent shots. As far as dads gettting tags,there will always be those that try to get around the system no matter what. I say leave it the way it is.
I also believe 10 is to young for 95% of kids to be even holding a gun much less shooting. Anything to sell more licenses, guns, crossguns, etc
I agree that most kids are too young but I do like the idea of giving that decision to the parents.
I know 8 year olds I'd rather be holding guns than some 30 year olds I know. Pretty sure age isn't an accurate 'cut off'... up to guardian is most reasonable restriction I suppose. Of course some of those 30 year olds that shouldn't have guns happen to be guardians...
Maybe we should let our 8 yr olds drive our vehicles on Friday nights. Lol. 10 is plenty young to be sending and arrow or bullet through the air.
Just another group in the assembly trying to drum up votes any way possible.
Well I've said my bit on this before. Certainly specific to the kid at hand, but using the same line that some 30 year olds are not ready, are the same 30 year olds making the decisions to have their kids hunting at 10. So great reply that will be my argument. With that said, I speak from experience. My daughter, although successful at age 10, was too young to hunt turkeys. It ruined her. I made a bad decision as a responsible parent. Nope, she doesn't hunt. The muzzle blast was too much for her.
I think you should have the cognitive ability to take the hunter's safety test, and field training. That includes handling a gun. Most (I repeat most) do not have the frame to handle a heavy gun. I think it should go back to 12, and only after you pass hunter's safety. Again, an instructor versus that "30 year old" dolt is in my opinion, the better choice to make that decision.
You want your kid to participate? Give him a broom handle, or take him for a hike, or fishing. Way more to the outdoors than killing an animal, where I'm not sure young children have the mental capacity to understand life and death to its fullest?
10 is too young...case closed
Pete hit it right on the head. Say some guy takes off his orange jacket after climbing his tree because he is sweating. Fails to put it back on when he heads out for lunch. A young kid sees something dark moving through the brush. I don't think the first thing through their mind is " is that a deer or a human". I could be wrong, but this sounds really unsafe.
Will it do away with the youth hunt?
Then no way am I for it.
I support it. It is case by case dependent.
This part I don't like-
”Current law also requires that a child and adult on a mentored hunt carry only one gun between them. The Assembly bill would eliminate that restriction, meaning a child and adult could carry two guns between them."
The thing I like about mentoring currently is that it is truly mentoring. Only one gun between them. That means the mentor is keeping his attention on the mentee.
What a convenient way to seek the airbow into archery season. Crossbows are too heavy and 5 year old can't draw 35 pounds. Little Jimmysonofabitch needs to kill things at 6 years old during all seasons, so let's just add airbows, after all, it's for the children.
Full support for the bill.
I still think 12 should be the hunting age. I was in a tree stand or walking the fields with my uncles at the age of 5 or 6. They were always teaching me what to look for or what to do, or not to do. It didn't matter if it was pointing out their mistakes or the mistakes of others. I can still remember when i was 8 my uncle let me carry an UNLOADED 22 in the woods deer hunting. I did this for years, learning muzzle awareness and how to just carry a weapon. When I was 11 i was allowed to bring my bow in the tree and go through the motions. NEVER was I allowed to load or knock an arrow, strictly learning experiences. My point is that most children at young ages do not realize the power or capabilities that they have when when they squeeze the trigger. Kids need know that a lot can go wrong real quick, and need to have mental capability to know what is going on. Yes an adult should be there to help with any situation, but we all know that is not always the case. Needless to say I am not in favor of this.
I think Tweed made one of the strongest points of all. There is no reason for a mentor to carry a second gun. Mentoring should be 100% attention on the child.
As a hunter safety instructor I see 10-12 year old's that are physically not able to hold a gun up and safely shoot it. The answer to that has become the crossbow. The are able to rest it on a shooting rail and shoot it at a target consistently. Few 10 year old's can draw the legal weight for a bow. Again, the crossbow is the answer to that question.
Are young people old enough to realize what they are doing when they kill an animal? Some are and some aren't.
I do not believe that this is a good bill as written. It needs to be changed to keep the one firearm/bow/crossbow/muzzle loader. Once the 2nd bow or gun is brought into the equation the focus of the mentor is removed from their young hunter. The mentor becomes another hunter. Safety first!
Give your elected representatives a call and let them know your thoughts.
Thanks!
My son was one of the first allowed into the Learn to Hunt Bear program as a 10 year old. He performed well when his opportunity came opening morning. He also killed a spike buck with his gun in MI that year because they had the mentored hunt already. I felt he was ready. However, I did not feel he was proficient enough with his bow at age 12 and did not allow him to bow hunt until he was 13. He needed to get stronger and did in that year.
I think this one comes down to the discretion of the parents. I hope the parents would be very honest with themselves and their kids. There is a lot at stake.
I agree with Tweed in that I too am opposed to having multiple weapons. I think one weapon should be the rule with this scenario.
Here's a little snip from the article I read yesterday where I first heard of this.
Interesting to see which organizations support it.
While I still like the idea of giving the decision back to parents, it seems that most sportsmen (here) feel differently. Even if I don't agree, I'd like to see the appropriate body make a decision based on the majority of sportsmen.
I support this proposal. Twelve was a random age, as was 10. I think the parents are most qualified to make this choice. When I hunted with my kids, it was one weapon and it was their weapon. I get much more joy watching them make a kill than I do myself making it. However, I can understand that not all people have unlimited time to hunt so I can accept two weapons, particularly in the case of vertical bow hunting where each bow is set up to fit a particular person.
My son and daughter both could pull back the legal limit at 10 if not before. Both bow hunted at 10. I mentored both of them. I see no reason to limit to one weapon, let alone a bow. Mentoring is not just for the 12 and under. What about the husband introducing duck hunting to his wife? Is only one weapon appropriate?
Everyone is concentrating on deer hunting. Although very popular in WI, there are many different things to hunt. I wonder how many of you used to squirrel and rabbit hunt on a farm back when you were under 10? Grandpa's 22 in the shed? I hear from many on this site that small game hunting interest is dying. Why can't I take my 7 yr old out with 22 and sit under a big oak? He shoots it at a target. In fact, there is no "within arms reach" restriction for him to shoot at a gun range.
I see no magical age for a child to hunt as each matures different. Also, I do not believe government, let alone a hunter ed instructor, knowing any better than a parent when a child is ready to hunt. No state which has lowered or did away with age or restricted the amount of weapons has had any increase in hunting accidents. In fact, mentored hunting continues to be the safest regardless of age or restrictions.
Like the last time this bill was put out, you have about 50 Hunter Ed instructors and their lobbyist, George Meyer, fighting it. Although they like to think they defeated it, that is not what happened. It will pass this time.
The sky didn't fall like it was supposed to when we did away with gun cases, back tags or in person registration. I'm sure it will not with this law change.
I'm a hunter Ed instructor and feel that 10 is plenty early.The crossbow bill was ramed down our throats by the N R A this smels the same to me.Not a good idea.
Well I guess the young kids in these states must be smarter, stronger and safer than our reckless puny little ignorant Wisconsin kids - from what I read here these states don't have a minimum age and I don't hear about massive amounts of bloodshed in their woods: Alabama, Arkansas, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri (starts at age 6), Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, South Carolina, Tennessee (starts at age 6), Vermont, Washington, and West Virginia.
I tried to extract from the list accurately. Apologize ahead of time if I misunderstood what they wrote.
My dad had me carrying an unloaded Daisy in the pheasant fields and duck blinds since I was 4 years old to practice barrel awareness walking or swinging on birds. Became 2nd nature to me in a few years. Shot my first deer, wild hogs, and countless javelina when I was 8 and 9 years old in south Texas. I think it all depends who is training the child and to what extent. My dad wanted these safety things ingrained in my head by the time I was ready to pull the trigger myself. I think lowering the age to hunt would be beneficial as long as there was some sort of strict field test that was needed to be passed.
Well, I'm certainly not making my opinion on safety. I for one feel for the most part, the parents are making all the decisions, while the kids are pulling the trigger. My point of view is almost exclusively based off of the mentality of the child doing the killing. I'm just not sure a kid less than 10, can understand what taking a life REALLY means? I had a friend who's a fellow taxidermist, post a kid's first duck, it happened to be a wood duck. He was 5. Now do you think a kid who probably hasn't learned to lift the seat, or wipe his own ass properly understands what death actually means? Do you think he lifted that .410, and swung on that bird in flight, or do you think he swatted it? Do you think he wanted to hunt as much as his dad wanted to hunt? I speak from experience. My kid wasn't ready. I agree that it should be up to the parents, but at the same time, there are parents having kids, before they themselves have reached adulthood. I can agree with the topic, if the kid can take the test (with no help from the adult), can pass a field trial, and can lift his own weapon, or draw his own bow, or cock his own crossbow, but until then, they simply can play like children do. You ALL waited. You ALL love hunting. Your kid can wait too. Safety? The least of my reasoning. Mental capacity and body strength? Most of my reasoning.
Young kids dont even know what life and death is? Sorry, way to many parents who arent much smarter than their 8 year old. Theres plenty of opportunity in the outdoors for young kids. Absolutely no need for kids to have high powered rifles in their hands at age 6 or 8.
Pete, that was very well stated and a different angle.
My hunting group has always had the following rule for the Gun Season: 10 -13 year old, can join the hunting camp for the second weekend of gun season, and sit with parent/mentor. 14+ can hunt opening weekend of gun season, and with parent's blessing, can hunt on his own. (Of course must have completed Hunter's Ed)
We hunt private land, this system has worked for us since 1971. Of course, each kid is different, and we have had two kids who sat with their dad until they were 16. I myself sat by myself at age 14.
We don't have any particular rules regarding age of bow hunting, but no one under age 14 has ever really tried to bow hunt thus far. However with more women's and kids bows on the market than in the past, younger kids will be able to actually use and shoot a bow capable of killing a deer, so we may need to address this soon.
I'm not sure that kids much younger than 10 are ready for hunting. But it does depend on the individual. As much as I believe that the parents/guardians need to make the decision of when a kid is ready, I do fear that some parents will rush their kid into hunting, when the kid is not ready.
Just a money making sure scheme. In my opinion.
My son is 8, we've been practicing pretty hard on the fundamentals of shooting, safety and ethical sportsmanship..... With his very low power BB gun for the last year. He is very good and understands all of the lessons but all of that pales in comparison to direct supervision. I trust his judgement but would hate to have him afield with the tough decisions that need to be made sometimes related to safety sometimes to ethical practices without me there to guide him. I think there is potential for tragic accidents and lower hunter retention, the mistakes I made in my youth as a hunter stuck with me and id hate to lose young hunters due to inexperienced decisions. I find it almost damaging to our future, it only takes a few bad headlines on the news.
Lots of good points already made here but worth repeating. Number one for me is the one weapon between mentor and mentored should be included. Number two is the idea of some parents that shouldn't be making decisions themselves making the decision putting others at risk. I was for lowering the age to 8 when they changed it to 10 but after knowing of 10 year olds being sent out to stand alone after they allowed them to hunt I am against lowering the age any more. This change is an accident waiting to happen in my opinion.
Lots of good points already made here but worth repeating. Number one for me is the one weapon between mentor and mentored should be included. Number two is the idea of some parents that shouldn't be making decisions themselves making the decision putting others at risk. I was for lowering the age to 8 when they changed it to 10 but after knowing of 10 year olds being sent out to stand alone after they allowed them to hunt I am against lowering the age any more. This change is an accident waiting to happen in my opinion.
Chief, first and foremost in this as well as any other mentored hunting program is you, the mentor, being within arms reach of that child. You as the mentor are his guide, his conscience and his commonsense. That is the reason a mentor is required to be with these kids.
It is fine with me, but do not feel it accomplishes much other than parental ego.
My kids are already 11 and 13 so this proposal would not affect us anymore. I just know that my younger one was ready by 7 or 8, but had to watch his big sister go out for two years before he could hunt. (He came with sometimes, but we all know there is a difference between being an observer and being a participant.)
Times have changed. When I was young, our school gave excused absences to take off the three days of gun season. Now the same school schedules a middle school basketball tournament all opening day!
In no way am I saying lowering the age is a cure, but if hunter numbers drop the next 20 years like they have the last 20, our sport is in trouble. (Quick google search from my treestand here shows our population is up over 10%, but license sales are down about 10%.)
No, it isn't about the money. It is about having enough people understanding what we do and why we do it.
There's a comment above that mentions small game.
That's how I started. It was a progression. As I matured, I got to hunt larger prey.
Started with chipmunks, than squirrels and rabbits, then finally geese and pheasants (which I was most excited about) and finally when I was 13 or 14 deer.
When I look back at my 1st deer season I now remember my grandfather telling me exactly where he was. I'm pretty sure he was within voice distance.
Anywho....it was being able to chase squirrels and rabbits when I was less than 12 that got me hooked for life. I don't think I was ready for deer and shooting a deer rifle at that age was probably too much.
My friends kids uncle pressured him to do the youth hunt a couple years ago when he was 10 or 11, they felt he was becoming too cityfied. The experience turned him off forever.
I know several kids who have been turned of after the reality of blood, guts, wounding and suffering. I mentored a 13 year old bowhunter who spine shot a deer with an arrow, it totally ruined him and he became a Liberal Anti. He never hunted again, even though his dad and brother hunt with guns. All kids are different, no reason to rush the experience. The future of hunting rests with non hunting voters, not child animal killers.
CPT Mike,
Agree with your comments, my point was they need to continue to require the mentorship part, I would not be comfortable turning kids that age lose in the woods with guns alone.
MB says all there is to kids hunting is "blood, guts, wounding and suffering", "parental ego", and "child animal killers" .....
The OP wrote "I guess this is for the dad of youngsters who want another buck tag".
Those are cynical views of youth, hunting and parents in general. Damn cynical.
I guess I am more positive and optimistic on the future of our youth. I am also positive about the parents.
"Take your kids hunting now and you won't have to go hunting for your kids later."
To young. Some parents aren't qualified to be parents let alone make a decision like this, where their kid could affect the lives of others.
Badger Bucks - Good points!
dkbs - Your right. Some parents don't parent properly and those are the ones you will not find in the woods.Their either roo lazy, too drunk or unconcerned to spend the time with the child mentoring a hunt. So no worries there.
Who it does benefit is the responsible parents who for whatever reason, squirrels, turkey or deer believe that their child, under their tutelage/mentoring can responsible enter the woods and have a safe and enjoyable hunt.
Done right - we should not have a problem.
I remember the outcry here for the 10 year old hunt. Someone can correct me, but knock on wood, we have yet to suffer a hunting accident involving a 10 year old...have we?
We have had folks in their 30's and 40's and older involved in "accidents" and improper use of a firearm.
Let's put the responsibility out of the governments hands and back with the parents.
Why have any laws that have minimum age requirement? So we should be able to let are kids drive a vehicle, go drink at the bar, when we as parents feel they are ready? Yes 5% of kids are more mature for their age, 95% are not!!
Bloodtrail - right on.
RJN - Not sure how much you are around kids between say 6 and 10. My youngest is 11 and I have coached his baseball team since preschool. Between leagues and tournaments, I am probably around 250 kids each summer. Not a huge sample, but not exactly 75 year old "Stay off my lawn!" Grandpa either. Where do you get that 95% figure from? Also, big difference between one-on-one mentoring in the relative solitude of the woods, and driving down a busy highway at 75 or 80mph. Also, last I knew, it is still legal in Wisconsin for minors to drink while with their parents, and I haven't heard of any problems (neither have you or you would not have used this analogy which actually runs counter to your argument!! I was a bouncer in college in the 90s.)
Lastly, since RJN tried to take his opposition to the ridiculous extreme, let me take it to the other:
Maybe we need proficiency tests for everyone! I think some countries in Europe have that. You want a license, at any age, every year prove you can identify the game, prove you can shoot, etc. If you pass, then the all powerful government, in their benevolent grace, may bestow on you, the chosen few, the rare privilege of pursuing the Crown's game.
Bloodtrail, If our society was half as intelligent as you claim they are, than you and a whole bunch of other police officers would be unemployed wouldnt you?
I agree with this proposal. Giving parents the right to decide is where the decision should lie. In counter point, since some parents cant handle this lets take away those rights from all. Since a person in Vegas can't handle guns rights lets limit those for those who are law abiding and responsible. Since a man rams a truck into bikers lets take trucks away from law abiding citizens. A chance to restore rights to responsible citizens parents or in my case grandparent they should be given back. I have witnessed many irresponsible hunters in deer woods, elk camp, bear camp. Crazy stupid things. And kids are the irresponsible ones. I have a better proposal for a law. How about here in WI ZERO blood alcohol level to hunt or carry a gun. That seems truly common sense but would never pass either.
I was carrying a 410 or a 16 ga for squirrells and rabbits at age 8. At age 9 my dad would go cut wood and I’d go hunting, alone, with either of those guns. (Keep in mind the age then was 12 to carry a gun.) I didn’t grow up in a killing family but my parents knew what was best for me and gave me a lot of options early on in life. I would hate to see where I’d be without those options. I learned from what I did wrong and moved on. Now days the liberal media has a loud voice in what seed is planted in our heads. I can see on here that seed has been planted in heads who support hunting. I see safety, parents should be able to make this decision, and so forth as reason why there should be an age restriction. Why shouldn’t parents have to make that decision? After all the legislators are not responsible for our kids. We as parents are.
Even more.....the average age of hunters is increasing as fewer are doing gun sports or hunting period. Again the media is at fault. People, many on here, can’t draw their own conclusion about something without having others factor into the decision process. Go back through the years and look at how regulation as crippled us. You will see what I mean.
+1 RJN-- why have any laws at all for age requirements. I mean let's let kids drive at 7 or 8. Let em get drunk at 9 or 10. The reason? Kids can't handle it. As many others have said they can be turned off for life by this. All these new laws are disgusting if you ask me. It's making deer hunting a joke.
I grew up with a bb gun and chasing birds and squirrels. Went on many trips with my dad deer hunting and that created the passion for hunting. I didnt need to kill a deer. But it was creating a foundation. Absolutely couldn't wait till I turned 12 and could finally hunt with the group. I'm all for getting kids in the woods and starting them early. But there is no need for this.
Wow... any age and up to parents? Any of you guys coach sports? If so, how many of you coaches were approached by parents that were unhappy that their son, daughter, grandson aren't the starting quarterback, 1st string, starter etc? IMO there needs to be an age. If your son is shaving a beard by 8 years old, I'm sorry he still needs to wait until he hit's that age where legal. Whatever that age is. 8, 10, too young for me.
Simple. Take a test, closed room, no coaching, no input from adults, except teaching the class. You pass hunter's safety, now take a field trial test, show how you can handle your weapon. Describe how it works, load it, cock it, draw it. Hold it yourself. Seems like a great compromise. While your at it, make your bed, wash some dishes, clean your room, wash your clothes. In other words, we expect a kid to kill an animal, and they might not be able to spell the animal they kill?
Yes, this applies for adults. I was granfathered, but I took hunter's safety. So, yes, make it applicable to any age group, and I'll endorse it. It's been stated that some kids are different. Than prove it!
As far as government goes, I hate government. These new laws lessening the laws, I actually support, but at the same time, you must have some control over who is ready, and who is not. It has been clearly stated it is not an age, and perhaps that's correct. Well, let's equalize the playing field, and require hunter's safety. If your kid can't read or draw up his own weapon, then he's not ready. I believe I was a very safe, very responsible parent, making the right decision. My daughter was 10, was successful, and I blew it. She was too young.
For many children a later introduction to blood, guts, and potential suffering and pain will be more palatable to them. Why rush it?
Pete, I sat through the hunter ed classes that both my kids took. A part of it was actual gun handling, including having to know how to load and work the various types of actions, as well as crossing fences and proper carrying techniques. I understand this is not done in all hunter ed classes and certainly not with the online class. Maybe we need to start with a standardized protocol that requires this of any kid who wants to hunt, regardless the age?
Capt Mike.......how bout starting in 5th grade....hunter safety.
I would be for hunter safety as a required class in all schools in 5th grade and shooting sports as electives all the way through 12th grade. Just think how many hinters we could add .....
Yes, the best think about a discussion, is talking through things, and coming up with alternatives and compromises. Unfortunately our politicians don't understand this ideology.
Yes, captain, that is exactly what my son and I had to do. Seems like a good idea for all kids to be able to do this.
Mike F. That is an incredibly great idea. I'm all for recruitment. I'm afraid our lack of recruitment has much less to do with opportunities to hunt (which I certainly believe are more limited now), but instead, the NEED to hunt. Our grandparents hunted out of necessity, today we hunt more for a recreational value. I for one, love venison. I take around 3 deer a year, and we eat it all, before the next season, yet I could likely just go buy meat at the market. Kids have so many distractions. School is much more demanding today than when I was a kid. Kids are thinking about college, sports, social media, friends, far more than killing an animal. We have humanized animals, dehumanized people, and we've gotten further and further away from our primal instincts to kill for survival. Like it or not, we've become more civilized. My kids have every opportunity to hunt. To hunt on good land, and both choose not to. The eat the venison, but do not have any interest in any of it. Including small game, turkey, duck, and fishing. It's something I feel like I cannot live without?
Go Wisconsin, you made yahoo news. Great press!
Missouribreaks - Garbage press would better define what you posted as far as a link. The articles title tells all -
Showing a photograph of a very young child in possession of what appears to be a firearm without an adult mentor being an arms length away? Really?
The picture strives to show that this small child cannot apparently shoulder the weapon as he's picture clumsily trying to hold the weapon.
Apparently - the author or news agency that printed this garbage is doing so at the expense of others and attempting to send a message. I guess it's all about selling newsprint....
Unfortunately hunters are going to get this kind of press. We asked for it though, never content.
Pat, let's be honest a bit here. This clumsy looking photo is exactly what a kid of that frame would look like. I understand that mentoring allows the mentor to lift the gun for the kid, perhaps sit him on the mentor's lap, load the gun, or cock the crossbow, or tell him which one to shoot, but this is my point. How dependant does a kid have to be on the mentor to make that decision to kill? Yeah, pulling a trigger (maybe with two fingers lol) is certainly something these young kids can do, but isn't that a good enough reason to perhaps wait? Again, I support it, if the kid can test out, or write his name in cursive, but most kids under 10, are simply not ready, and in no way does this support hunter recruitment.
I know it sounds like I'm against it completely. I'm only against it on the premise, that these kids are cognitively and physically not ready, without the support of a third hand and a lap, and an extra set of eyes. Why the need to expose them so early? The answer is because their parents want it that way. Most kids would rather sleep in, if they didn't think they'd hurt pop's feelings. Most have the attention span of (well) a kid. My daughter had a huge smile on her face at the age of 10, when she got her turkey. Yep, I assisted the entire way. You know why she smiled? Get this! Because we were done before 7 am, and she could go back to bed, while dad registered her bird, and cleaned it. Do you see the parody here? Before you reply that some kids are ready, or some kids are bigger, then why not have them test out? For some reason hunter's safety is important, but we are not requiring it under the mentorship program? Coming from a guy who has used the program on several occasions.
Pete, the biggest issue I see with "testing out" is the cost. Think of the logistics involved. Training for the people administering the test. Locations and frequency of testing sessions. Administrative costs for the program and pay for those giving the tests.
That seems odd? Perhaps it's because I live in an area that offers at least 15 classes a year for 5 different places. Even taking it online, which can be cheated, you still need to test out with a field day. I don't think it would require a lot more sessions. I believe most kids today either don't want to hunt, or their parents would prefer they'd wait. I've talked to several friends. Most are on board with the concept of letting parents decide, but believe the age of 10 is plenty young. If logistics is a reason, then that same concept applies for kids at the age of 12, when it becomes a right of passage, because one day, they will be hunting by themselves, and maybe one day they will go out west, where many states make it a requirement. It's a small tradeoff to let those kids who are ready, show they are indeed ready.
Pete, what is the trade-off? I have not heard of any studies or statistics that show that young, mentored hunters are a safety issue. As I was referring to logistics, I was thinking of a seperate, more comprehensive program. After reading your response and thinking more about it, this could be combined with the hunter ed class but as I said earlier, the program would need to be much more defined. I have spoken with numerous people who have said there was no type of hands on training in the classes they attended. I have also heard that in our area, classes fill up quickly and there are not a lot of options available for those wanting to attend. I will qualify that with it is what I have heard and not what I have experienced. At any rate, I'd guess our conversation here is a moot point at this late stage.
"Again, I support it, if the kid can test out, or write his name in cursive, but most kids under 10, are simply not ready, and in no way does this support hunter recruitment." Ah Pete, they don't even teach cursive anymore.
There is a lot to be said for letting dad (and/or mom) decide what is the right age for their child to deer hunt. For anyone on here that choice is probably a no brainer and the kid is probably ready if mom and dad think they are. But how many parents out there are as in tune with what their kid can handle in terms of gun handling, safety concerns, maturity, and the emotions of killing or possibly wounding their first deer? Big difference between shooting a deer versus a squirrel.
Plus, what is the minnimum age to take the hunting safety class in Wisconsin? I think it is 11 in Minnesota and they don't actually get their permit issued until they are close to turning 12. Is the mentor required to be safety class certified no matter what the mentors age is? They should be. Maybe even have a special class for mentors and the kid to take together. Plus I am not at all convinced that the online hunter safety classes leaves the kids with as good of an education as the in person class does.
Many different opinions on this subject. I spoke with my son about getting my grandson in hunter saftey when he was 10. My son talked to an instructor by him and the instructor said that he would wait until he was at least 12, I bought my grandson a 22 at 8 yrs old and he shot everytime he came up to my house. We decided to wait on hunter saftey and just did the mentored hunting with him. At 13 he took his hunter saftey course and did exceptional both on the written and field test. He got to shoot a muzzleloader and thought that was just great. My grandson is a big boy at 6'2" and was shooting clays with a 20 ga at age 12. The instructor was very impressed with his gun saftey. I guess my point is that all kids are different but there is nothing wrong in taking your time with them. At 10 he couldnt ever hold up a 20 ga or a 30-30. He shot his first deer at 13 and was more than capible of handling all the came with it. Myself, I grew up in a different era, shot small guns at an early age, but was never allowed to big game hunt until I was 12, Lots of squirrel and rabitts and grouse but no big game.
Captain, safety is actually the least of my concerns. I believe for the most part, the mentor is calling the shots, and the kid is simply the vehicle to the trigger.
Pete, then what are your concerns? I know you mentioned if they understand taking a life but even if they do not fully comprehend it, at least they are learning where their food comes from. And no, this is certainly not a sure fire way to recruit new hunters but without playing actually football, chess, going hunting or learning a musical instrument, they will have no idea if they like it or not.
What kind of gun do you give an eight year old for deer? 12 gauge with slugs?
Yes they will Jeff. At a more mature age, like 12, like you and I were. This new proposal is designed for parents, not children. I just listened to a radio show on the topic. I'm certainly not alone. Not one single caller (all hunters) were in favor. As a matter of fact, the question was asked, how old were you when you killed your first animal. The average was 13.3 years of age. Most mirrored what I said. Have mentors test out, have kids test out, have them pass a field trial.
You can teach them where there food comes from. Either take them along, or tell them this: See that deer in the back of the truck? I killed it!" "See those groceries in the back of mom's minivan? " She bought them." "Now I know you're only 9 years old, but grab that bag of groceries....or is it too heavy?"
Yeah, as a parent of two pretty strong, free-thinking, independent kids, who didn't raise wimps, I think anything younger than 10 is too early. I don't necessarily agree with mentoring altogether. I believe in hunter's safety, and believe all people should have to take it. I've mentored plenty of newbies. They don't know much. I happen to be pretty versed in the shooting sports, but damn, there are some parents who should have to test out, to be parents....let alone hunting mentors, so I don't think ALL parents are the best people at deciding when their kid is ready.
Mentally and physically fragile at that age. If we have to tell them what animal to shoot, help them hold their weapon, boost them up to shoot over the zipper of the blind, load their gun, cock their crossbow, because most 10 year olds (most) are not drawing the minimum poundage, then they are in my opinion, not ready. I feel like they are not really hunting, and instead, shooting. Almost as if the mentor is doing most of it, and I strongly believe the mentor is the one pushing these kids toward it in the first place. I cannot think of one occasion where any 8 or 9 year old said: "I want to go shoot a squirrel!" This idea is not coming from the mouths of babes. It's coming from an adult who is really not thinking this through to its fullest. I have many southern friends. They are huge proponents of the idea, but their culture (no offense), is a little more like the civil war hasn't quite ended if you will, but I still don't agree with a 6 year old shooting a turkey, so his old man can have bragging rights. "Yeah, my boy can't wipe his own ass properly, but he just shot a 22 pound gobbler!" Yeehaw!
retro, kinda my point too, Unless you go to a small caliber 223,or 7mm youth gun most will never be able to hold it up. Even those guns cant be held and shot by any 8 yr old I know.
I have watched a 7 and an 8 year old both shoot big game animals. They had no problem holding the rifle (a Mauser mod 98 in 7X57) on sticks, take the safety off and kill their quarry. Most of the rest of the world does this, as does a good portion of this country. All I have heard is what people "think" will happen but nothing other than that to substantiate their opinions. Pete has admitted he is not concerned with safety which would be the biggest factor to me. Lots of emotion with this subject but let's hear all the negatives which must be occurring in those southern states that allow it.
Capt, I also am not concerned about the safety. As a mentor,it was always my responsibility to teach safety to the kids I mentored. It was also my responsibility as a mentor to make sure all situations remained safe. I have 8 grandkids all between the ages of 8 and 14. (4 boys and 4 girls). I base my opinion on what I see from these kids and also from kids of my friends. I have not doubt that a 8 year old can shoot a gun from sticks. I am basically talking about pulling up a gun and shooting it. Either way Im not here to try to argue the point, just putting in my 2 cents worth. Like I said before, personally I think 10 works, depending on the parent,I personally think younger could work in some circumstances but not all.
Factory loads? Thats 12 to 15 lbs of recoil. At seven years old? Did either kid have a beard?
What happened to kids tagging along on hunts before they came of age to hunt. Why do we need to put a gun in their hands? I don't have a problem at 10 for mentored hunts
I feel they need to comprehend what they're doing and understand this isn't a video game.
Like Forest Gump, that's all I'm going to say about that.
Xtroutx, while I tend to favor this, I am very willing to hear some valid reasons to not allow it. If the mentor takes the time to set up a blind or stand properly, maybe that kid does not have to throw the rifle up and shoot off-hand. I don't see that as being any different than someone might dofor their 30 year old, 105# wife.
DT, what change happens on the tenth birthday that was not present the day before that tenth birthday?
1 day not much but from 8, 9, and 10 there are huge gains. Have you worked with youth in that age bracket? Between coaching youth hockey and teaching huntersafety Is what I base my opinions on.
Retro, no beard. Maybe you and yours are better suited for macrame?
DT, my girls killed big game animals in Africa at 9 and 10 years of age. No, I do not have the patience to coach or to teach, that is one reason why I think the parent is best suited to choose. As I stated, I have seen kids that are mentally and physically able to do it at those ages. Does not mean that every kid is, but some definitely are.
I'm onboard with my friend CaptMike here - I'd like to add that there are other States that have enacted this law years ago and to my knowledge it has not been a problem as of yet. So I say - let's move forward on this.
Capt, points taken and can understand what you are saying. I have no valid points to condem this, nor would I try. I just know that I will not mentor any of my grandkids before age of 10, because I dont feel they are ready. I have one that is 11 right now and he was not ready this year and didnt hunt. Like I said,every case is different. If the law changes I am glad for those that benifit from it, It wont change my mind on my mentoring position
Xtroutx, that is one of the enefits of this proposal that see. Each parent/guardian can choose when is best for their kid. It is surely not a mandate that must be done at any specified age. Congrats on the grandkids and the time you get to share with them.
I would like everyone to try this.
Bend your arm so that your bicep is perpendicular to your forearm. Now measure from what my wife calls the cubital fossa (elbow pit) to the last knuckle of your trigger finger. Roughly speaking, this is your most optimum length of pull (LOP). Other factors like extra clothing might reduce this, just as a VERY heavy recoiling rifles might push this out a touch. Just for perspective, most youth model rifles sport a LOP anywhere from 12.5 to 13". I my average for size 9 year old daughter is still four inches away from being able to properly fit a youth model. Shooting any big game animal with grossly ill fitting equipment is no longer hunting, it is a stunt. One that I might add, could potentially serve to be disastrous at both ends of the muzzle.
Just read that this passed the assembly and is now on its way to the senate.
7 year olds in Africa? Kid must have a helluva job...... How did his elephant hunt go?
If a kid can't completely handle the weapon on their own from handling and loading all the way up to aiming and pulling the trigger they should not be allowed to kill something. It doesn't matter how mentally mature they are, they need to be able to physically do the work themselves.
Sounds like we are trying to define a "killing" age, not a hunting age.
That is a big part of this whole scenario, are kids under 12 mentally ready to handle the situations that happen once that trigger is pulled? I have a friend who's son shot his first deer at 12 and it was not a good hit. It was a fawn, it went down, and started bleating. Then the doe came over, needless to say it wasn't what the guys son wanted to see and never hunted again, he's 30 now. I used to bring my son trapping with me when he was 4,5 years old. But, I would walk up and look at the traps making sure the animal was dead before allowing him to go check it. If they weren't and I had to dispatch the critter, I would distract him by telling him to watch the one trap while I checked the other. I didn't want to freak him out and put a bad image in his head at a young age .
Liveto, that is a very valid point but once again, who better to make that choice than the parent? Any age, be it 10, 12, 14 or some other number is an arbitrary one, chosen to try and cover the majority. While there is no drop-dead, absolute way of doing it perfectly for every kid, I still believe the parent is better suited to chose than anyone else.
Retro, thanks for once again flaunting your ignorance. You would appear more intelligent if you never said a word.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10210203177905451&substory_index=45&id=100001215633650
I got to admit, everyone is having fun!
Capt, I thought we were having a discussion on real world hunting for wild animals. Then you go and post a picture of an enclosure hunt in Africa to defend your position. LOL! Are you really that delusional?
When I was 6 years old, my dad gave me a Daisy air rifle,,,, I still have it,,,, He taught me gun safety, kept it in his gun cabinet, took it out on Sunday afternoons, when we went out in the country, to shoot..... This continued till I was 9.....
At 9 he gave me a Iver Johnson 410, however he hated hammer guns, but he could not find a hammerless single action, or even afford the Winchester Model 37,,, He let me go on hunts, no ammo, and showed me gun handling, how to hunt with others and how to hunt behind dogs......
When he and I went out, we would squirrel hunt around Columbus, cook squirrel and potatoes in a dutch oven, take a nap in the sun, and we had a glorius time,,,,,,
He gave up a lot of time, with his buddies, so we could hunt together,,,, when I was 11 he gave me a fox double, (still have it), and I felt I had come of age,,,,, at that time he was shooting bucks out on the Apostle Islands, and I dreamed of going. He said I would at 14, but first I had to learn how to hunt deer....
At 12 just he and I went out, with one gun, a double with slugs, and we killed deer, and I was now learning,,,,,,,
At 15 New Guinea had finally killed my dad, I was heart broken, and had a very tough time dealing with it, and volunteered for the service in 68 because of it.......
My father gave me a gift that lasted a life time,,,, that's why it was so important for me,,,, I think fathers, should do the same today.... Too many are too busy for their kids, or they let their kids, live in a world of distractions.......
Take a kid hunting, and watch his smile,,,, You have no idea, of what your putting in his heart, but I know what my dad put in my heart.........
Leave it up to the parents,,,,, Government is not the answer, the answer is within us,,,,,,
take your kids and go have fun
What is interesting is that very few of these very young hunters are bowhunters. They are crossbow hunters or gun hunters, oftentimes vise held. Will be Interesting to see when they join the ranks of bowhunting and a bowhunting forum.
I have no idea of where you live, and you are usually not an optimistic person, from most of your posts, but I see lots of kids, learning early, and getting into bowhunting.... At my club we have Saturday youth leagues,,,, we will not turn any kids away,,,,We are packed, to the point, we had to put schedules on......
lots of us volunteer our time, and weekend day, so they get started right,,,, We raise money and buy bows, and equipment, and lots of it, is donated because some kids the parents can not afford it yet........
lots of compounds obviously, but lots of recurves, since the kids find them easy to shoot with, the right arrows..... some of them have already hunted with crossbows, but still like to come and shoot other bows......
I went to a 4H shoot, 2000 kids, for that one,,,,,, Archery is also big in the schools......
My buddy owns an archery shop, he orders lots of target and field recurves, for the young ones, who want them for school or leagues......
I personally think the crossbow, should be for 65 and over, or those that are disabled, or young ones from 10 to 13,,,,,,, after that, they should have their own season, and not in the rut, should stay in the gun season, or ml season. In the UP, they can not be used in late season, that should tell you something......
But as far as archery goes, I see it as pretty strong, around here in Wisconsin and MI..... Kids love to shoot bows,,,,,,, I run a 22 range at the club, kids love to shoot all day, if and when they can, and they learn more than safety, they learn responsibility,,,,,
If you want to make things better, go volunteer your time, for the kids and new hunters,,,,,,,,,
I was talking about the issue of very young kids actually killing animals, not range shooting. What I am is a realist who likes to put big picture ideas out for debate. I am not one who cannot see beyond a forty acre parcel and a box blind. Bad press out on Yahoo about " Toddlers " hunting and killing game with rifles and other weapons. That should not be ignored. I do have a very pessimistic outlook on real bowhunting vs crossbow hunting, the numbers are coming in.
Retro, thanks for further flaunting your ignorance.
I still think the motivation is another group hunt buck tag.
Capt Mike, Family pictures at the zoo are always nice, but completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Meanwhile back in reality.........
CaptMike-great photo! I really enjoyed reading your perspective, Groundhunter. I agree with many of the points you alluded to. As I said before, it is a case by case basis, and that is the beauty of the bill.
Getting a lot of calls asking when this will take place. Parents are anxious to get their kids/grand kids into the woods. As far as this law, the only bad thing about it in my mind is the ability of the mentor to have his or her firearm along with the youth. I understand the want to have an additional bow if you are mentoring a youth archer because there will come a time that you will need to make a killing shot on a wounded animal. But I still see no need to have an additional firearm in the woods if you are mentoring a new hunter.
Retro, whoever dumbed you down did a great job. Thank you Duke and Missouri, those early times are priceless. And, in every instance that I have been involved in, those young hunters have turned into very capable and enthusiastic young adult hunters.
Looks like Walker signed this bill today. Sounds like the mentor can also have a weapon and fill the mentees tag for gun? What a joke this state has become.
Today's youth is 10 years behind my generation and 20 years behind behind my father's . Mainly do to cell phone and Facebook . It's not a slam its just the way it is .
If done the right way this could be very beneficial to license sales and hunter recruitment. My dad always purchased a hunting license for me when I was younger even though I didn't even carry a loaded weapon in the field with me. But I will never forget being in the field or a blind with my dad and experiencing the great outdoors and the highs and lows that go with it. It is what got me hooked and I am now getting my friends involved in the outdoors as well. Unfortunately, I do think parents will take advantage of this and use it as an excuse for an extra tag. Tough road ahead for us as ethical outdoorsman who want this sport to have a future.
RJN, if you had read the entire bills as they were passed, you would know that part of one of the bills signed by Governor Walker was specifically to prohibit a mentor from filling a mentee's tag.
Wisconsin has gone too far on many issues including non registration of deer, no back tags, and now this. My son's are big boys, 6'8", 6'6", and 6'3" yet at 10 years old they were just barely big enough to properly shoulder a deer rifle and handle reduced recoil rounds. They also got cold pretty fast on our "Mentor" hunts. Parents should be able to make choices for their own children but some parents will overestimate what their child can/should handle. My feeling is a mentor and child only need one gun and younger than 10 should be limited to small game. Compromise is wise.
Tbone+1. Some people have common sense, others not so much.
