Mathews Inc.
Proposed changes to the license draw
Colorado
Contributors to this thread:
Grasshopper 13-Nov-17
Glunt@work 13-Nov-17
Orion 13-Nov-17
PECO 13-Nov-17
Ucsdryder 13-Nov-17
oldgoat 13-Nov-17
Orion 13-Nov-17
Grasshopper 13-Nov-17
MathewsMan 13-Nov-17
Glunt@work 13-Nov-17
Aspen Ghost 13-Nov-17
CO Oak 13-Nov-17
ZachinCO 13-Nov-17
CO Oak 13-Nov-17
KHunter 14-Nov-17
tobinsghost 14-Nov-17
Aspen Ghost 14-Nov-17
cedahm 15-Nov-17
wkochevar 15-Nov-17
Sandbrew 15-Nov-17
sticksender 16-Nov-17
wkochevar 16-Nov-17
Treeline 16-Nov-17
Quinn @work 14-Dec-17
MathewsMan 15-Dec-17
tramper 15-Dec-17
MathewsMan 15-Dec-17
txhunter58 17-Dec-17
txhunter58 17-Dec-17
Ski & Skin 25-Dec-17
Ski & Skin 25-Dec-17
Seahorse 25-Dec-17
Mathewshootrphone 25-Dec-17
8pointer 28-Dec-17
Orion 28-Dec-17
8pointer 29-Dec-17
ColoBull 29-Dec-17
huntingbob 30-Dec-17
txhunter58 03-Jan-18
ZachinCO 04-Jan-18
swampokie 08-Jan-18
txhunter58 08-Jan-18
ZachinCO 11-Jan-18
From: Grasshopper
13-Nov-17
If you look at the November commission issue papers, there is an issue paper we should all be aware of that will be 2 stepped into possible change on how the draw works. The change will have financial benefits, but also some potential serious consequences.

CPW is proposing that when you apply, you won't be charged the full amount of the your license fee, UNLESS YOU ARE SUCCESSFUL IN THE DRAW. The proposal is projected to save up to 3 million annually in merchant fees they must absorb that they currently pay only to refund the money back when the applicant is unsuccessful. As well, they will save the cost of refund overhead on labor, etc, etc. I think everyone would support CPW saving money to spend on other more important issues.

I apply annually in Utah, and this appears similar to their model. I pay a few bucks to apply in Utah, but have never and may never draw in my lifetime.

One concern notated in this issue is applications may increase significantly, I would believe primarily for non residents, but perhaps residents too. This will lead to preference point creep, and it could be significant. This could mean will all have more challenges to draw the licenses we seek.

Another potential relates to credit cards. My credit card company cancels my cards, and reissues to 2 to 3 times a year over hacking and fraud fears. If a party apply succesfully with a card, but the card is denied upon succesful draw, you would be given a chance to update your payment method. If you do not do so, that license is considered surrendered, and then goes to the leftover draw instead of the next in line. Personally, not sure I like that, especially if it is a high point license.

If you care to comment, send an email to CPW commission.

From: Glunt@work
13-Nov-17
Probably the better way of doing it but it will increase point creep.

From: Orion
13-Nov-17
draw odds will tank, especially for non-residents, as well as for resident sheep, moose, and goat because everyone will put in if they don't have to front the money

From: PECO
13-Nov-17
When will this take effect? Do I need to dump my points for the 2018 season. Which is another problem. Mass panic when this goes into effect, everyone dumping their points there won't be point creep it will be a heck of a spike.

From: Ucsdryder
13-Nov-17
I always wondered why Colorado doesn’t make people buy a hunting license similar to most states like Idaho. Seems like a good way to increase revenues. Make everyone buy a hunting license to partake in the drawings.

From: oldgoat
13-Nov-17
Really really don't like that the licence would go to leftover instead of next in line if people don't update their credit cards or just decide they can't afford it now.

From: Orion
13-Nov-17
Seems like they should stick with the 5+ rule they adopted this year. 5 or more resident points next in line, 4 or less leftover list

From: Grasshopper
13-Nov-17
It will, I was in a hurry. Sorry.

Another thing to consider, if you surrender a license because you failed to pay, all your points are forfeited.

From: MathewsMan
13-Nov-17
I've been told that next year (2018) Colorado will have in place Credit Card application availability for Non-residents just like they do for Residents.

The proposed change is to allow the card to be hit for the fee if successful, and only billed for the application expenses on the front end. Most Credit Cards do not allow you to have a $2800 cash refund without the additional fees- which is why they previously did not allow Non-residents to apply via credit.

It won't have an impact on Residents since they are already permitted to apply with credit, the Non-resident applications will certainly spike up as it is easier for most to put that on a card than to write a check.

From: Glunt@work
13-Nov-17
I think it will effect residents. Yes we can use credit cards now but its still a big purchase for many even though you get the majority refunded in a couple months. This would make it easier and I am sure it will increase applications. Also, many avoid credit cards and use debit cards so they have to front real money currently.

From: Aspen Ghost
13-Nov-17
MathewsMan, Nonresidents have been able to use credit cards to apply for many years. I'm pretty sure that happened with when online applications started.

From: CO Oak
13-Nov-17
NR have not been able to apply for moose, sheep or goat with a CC. Paper application only.

From: ZachinCO
13-Nov-17

ZachinCO's Link
Somewhere in the link provided? I've looked through a few sections, couldn't find it doing a quick search.

From: CO Oak
13-Nov-17
Pg 7 of regulatory item 14.

From: KHunter
14-Nov-17
I like paying up front and at least marginally thinning the herd of applicwnts.

From: tobinsghost
14-Nov-17
I know at least 5 guys who don't put in now for more expensive hunts but I'm sure they would now!

From: Aspen Ghost
14-Nov-17
Thanks for the clarification. For some reason I had elk on my mind.

From: cedahm
15-Nov-17
"I know at least 5 guys who don't put in now for more expensive hunts but I'm sure they would now!"

This is where I think we'd see a large jump in apps. Everyone knows 5 people that also know 5 people, etc, etc that would throw down on everything for a (relative) handful of dollars.

And the current refund-by-check thing is certainly ridiculous from a business process perspective on CPW's side, but I don't mind it since then I accrue points/miles on the card (which you don't on a straight refund).

From: wkochevar
15-Nov-17
In my mind if they go this route and the application rate jumps, which it will, then they need to convert the draw process for Moose, Goat and Sheep to what currently exists for elk, deer, etc., whereby the tags go to those with the most points and no more of this weighted random first year(s) eligibility winners crap... Just my 2 cents! Carry On! :-)

From: Sandbrew
15-Nov-17
whochevar-

You do realize if they went to straight max points draws for example on ram tags (at current 200ish/per year) it would take more than 34 years to clear the backlog of everyone everyone with 3 points or more? I would suggest converting to a system similar to Nevada and where a point is equal to chance and your chances are squared as you gain points. That way you could draw at any level. It might also be worth investigating if the current system where your draw # is divided by your weight points could be converted to divide by your weighted points squared. This would give afar better advantage to the top point holders and still allow lower point holders a chance at a tag.

Any way you do the draw everyone can't get a tag.

Sandbrew

From: sticksender
16-Nov-17
This was the bad news that I was anticipating after the announcement last year that NR could apply on-line for Sheep & Moose & Goat in 2018. Draw odds I assume would take a bad enough hit if they merely allow on-line apps with the full license fee up front. Much easier than having to mail a check, as we NR must do now. But the huge added cost in Merchant Fees that CPW would get hit with for those thousands of NR $6000.00+ CC transactions is hard to get around. Unless the full license fee is no longer charged up-front, as they're now proposing. Which in turn means an even more dramatic hit to draw odds, as apps will surely go up significantly.

My preference is to make no change in the NR apps for the Big-3 species. I'll gladly continue to mail in a check for the full amount of the license. Otherwise the one remaining western state with half-decent NR odds for sheep and goat and moose is probably going to be toast. I'm guessing there'll also be an expansion in the applicant pools for residents, especially for the Big-3 species.

From: wkochevar
16-Nov-17
Sandbrew, I have no idea what the correct system is, however someone with 20+ years of points should NEVER, EVER lose out to a person in their 4th, 5th or 6th year, plain and simple!! But it happens all the time. How many tags are given out for deer, elk and antelope in the premium trophy units that take 20+ points to draw? I would guess those numbers are not far off from the 200 ram tags you stated...I'm curious. And I repeat...just my opinion

From: Treeline
16-Nov-17
The weighted points system needs to go. Whoever came up with that whole convoluted math for that system anyway?

I do prefer Nevada’s system to Colorado. Much easier math.

The reason G&F departments do this is because they think it will keep new people applying for tags with the chance of drawing in a short amount of time.

This new application system will probably increase applications.

I’m just trying to get out of all the points races for different species before I die in all the states I have points... Sitting on piles of points in many states and wondering how I got this far into it...

From: Quinn @work
14-Dec-17
Don't know if it's been posted here or not but it looks like not having to pay the entire tag fee when applying is now a reality. Just got the new turkey proclamation and it says this is a new change.

This sucks!!! Now everyone with $3 can apply for hunt. Draw odds just got worse than they already are. I feel bad for the non-resident moose, sheep and goat point holders as their odds just got a lot worse than us residents. This is what ruined NR odds in Wyoming and Utah many years back.

Also make sure if your credit card number is stolen that you update your profile with the new card number or when they do hit your card when you draw the payment will be denied.

Sad day for Colorado hunters, both residents and non-residents.

From: MathewsMan
15-Dec-17
I had heard from CPW staff last year that in 2018 we would have a system like WYomiing. You get application fees hit, and then if you draw later they hit your card for the tag.

This saves the Division from all of the refunding checks and holding people's money as well.

I don't think its sad, just getting with the times and how other states are already doing it.

From: tramper
15-Dec-17
This will decrease resident sheep, goat and moose draw odds, but I wonder how much? I know people that would not apply for these tags because of the big hit on the credit card. I'm glad I've drawn most hard to get tags already, though I would have like to have had another shot at sheep. Maybe not now....

From: MathewsMan
15-Dec-17
Jeff, residents have been able to use a credit card for a long time now, only difference will be that your card is not charged the whole tag fee unless you draw-

From: txhunter58
17-Dec-17
Correct but it costs me over $1000 out of pocket to apply every year to apply. Even though you get it back in about 3 months some people don't have that much they can put on a credit card. Now they can do it for less than $50. I suspect application fees will go up though.

From: txhunter58
17-Dec-17
Correct but it costs me over $1000 out of pocket to apply every year to apply. Even though you get it back in about 3 months some people don't have that much they can put on a credit card. Now they can do it for less than $50. I suspect application fees will go up though.

From: Ski & Skin
25-Dec-17
I know residents that have not applied because you have to front the money, so now yes they will apply and odds will get worse.

From: Ski & Skin
25-Dec-17
However it is helping all residents?

I think the draw should change to the

For each point you get your name in the hat then

first 33% straight points and second 33% double points and last 33% triple points.

The longer you put in the better your chances. Idk.

From: Seahorse
25-Dec-17
It may wreak havok on the point system, but it's about time that one thing doesn't come down to who has the most money, excluding those who could use the meat most. Having to pay, months in advance, for something you probably won't get was always ridiculous anyway.

25-Dec-17
I'm glad I got the hard tags out of the way . I budget for the draw expenses . Guy's look at the AZ, Utah see how hard a elk tag is to draw Colorado not far behind

From: 8pointer
28-Dec-17
Glad to see this changing. I didn't apply for goat or sheep on purpose the last 3 years because I didn't want to extra $500 on my credit card. Paying 20% interest for 3 months for something I wasn't going to get most likely. An extra $25 on my credit card bill in interest.

From: Orion
28-Dec-17
why would you pay interest when there are literally hundreds of 0% cards out there

From: 8pointer
29-Dec-17
I'm not going to sign up for a new card every license draw.

From: ColoBull
29-Dec-17
We'll start putting in for moose.

From: huntingbob
30-Dec-17
Purely a financial savings for CPW. the rest is left up to us! Good luck to all!

From: txhunter58
03-Jan-18
Every time you receive a new credit card, it also reduces your credit score for a while.

From: ZachinCO
04-Jan-18
"Purely a financial savings for CPW. the rest is left up to us! Good luck to all!"

Hasn't everyone been asking for an increase in resident fees because CPW has money woes(allegedly). So, with that thought process, going to this system should be applauded by all those in favor of resident increases.

Above comment not directly at huntingbob but a general group discussion.

From: swampokie
08-Jan-18
If I draw a tag in Colorado can I turn it back in and get money back minus app fee and preference pt if something comes up and I cant hunt? kinda new to Colorado draw

From: txhunter58
08-Jan-18
Yes, but only if you turn it back in at least 30 days before the hunt.

From: ZachinCO
11-Jan-18
"Yes, but only if you turn it back in at least 30 days before the hunt." I believe there are exceptions with medical/health issues, etc. Your best bet is to contact CPW directly if the situation arises.

  • Sitka Gear