Contributors to this thread:
just don't get it!!!
monday morning open day of bucks season 7:30, first shot rings out. guy on ajoining property wounds first year spike. deer runs to me on property i was hunting. i yell to guy come over here and finish it off. by the time he gets there deer is back over on his property. guy gives me static, wanting to know WHY i didn't shoot it. my response, WHY did you in first place. could have understood if hunter was young and maybe never killed a deer, but this guy was 60+ yrs old, probably killed hundreds of deer in his lifetime. if he needed meat could have shot a doe.
Because he isn't the man in the eyes of his buddy's for killing a doe
And that there is the problem that needs to be addressed either thru education, regulation changes or both.
I don't see the problem? However I wish people wouldn't shoot small bucks either.
This is exactly why it is so important to get the state wide limits and regulations changed. These are the people that counter act the hard work that many die hard hunters/managers contribute to improve deer quality. These same people have no idea that they are counter acting what some are trying to do on there own. These people that hunt 3 days a year think that when they kill a nice buck that it just happens. Man lately nature has been doing really good for some of these folks. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with people hunting 3 days out of a year and shooting what is legal. I just wish the sheep had better guidance.
The problem I’m referring to is what babysaph brought up, the thought that people “have to” get a buck. IDK the situation here. Maybe the guy has never shot a buck before, and in that case I’m happy for him. In other cases if someone wants meat then a doe could be taken. It’s the “idea” that in order to be recognized as a “hunter” they have to kill a buck regardless of size. If a lot of people hunt for meat ( which a DNR survey recently showed) there ARE other options than a spike.
That option should be available on a base license without having to buy an extra tag for the privilege.
Complaining about what people shoot when they are doing nothing is wrong is what makes me side with the spike hunters (so to speak). Gobbler is right, education is probably the best way to change that mindset. If this guy is in his 60s and has killed hundreds of deer as stated then nothing will change his mindset. It needs to start when they are young hunters.
It is a mind set and it does need to start when they are young. The only way to get immediate change is through the bag limits and different regulations. Most honest hunters will follow the state bag limits and then after a few years they would begin to see the difference for themselves.
My 11 yr old son has grown up watching the effort I put into managing deer and after getting his first buck with a gun 2 years ago he refuses to kill anything smaller than what he has already killed. He has the green light to shoot what he wants but will not do it after seeing what another year will do for small buck. He enjoys watching these deer grow up from year to year and seeing their potential. He has taken a pass on a few good deer that most would shoot and is fine with doing so. He also realizes that if he passes then he may end up empty handed. It is definitely a mind set for the younger generation but the older generation will need to be persuaded with different methods.
It does start when they are young. I don't know how many times of turned on the outdoor channel and have seen first time hunters shooting deer that I could only hope to kill. Nothing wrong with that but they think it should always be that way. Kids want a buck too. their peers are the same as ours. If you don't kill a buck then you are not a hunter.
I like gobblers idea. Antlerless deer on base license. Let 1st deer be either sex where available, and sell additional deer tags that can be used for either sex until buck and doe limits are reached. Could go a step further, if need be and have antlerless deer on base license and sell buck tags for a small fee.
Maybe the guy just wanted to kill a spike. Maybe he wanted the meat and, the first legal deer he saw, he shot. Maybe he simply enjoys the tradition and does not think his hunt quality is defined by antlers. Maybe when you start paying the land payment where he was hunting, you can decide for him what he can and can't shoot, if his target is within legal bounds. Maybe you could grow up a bit and realize people have their own ideas of what suits them. And, just because they don't align with your idea of what that should be, doesn't mean he is dumb, greedy, stupid, or ignorant. And finally, MAYBE you could do something for yourself by going to where this ignorant fool won't ruin your chances of a PERFECT world, versus expecting him to be on board with your idea of how he should have acted.
That sounds a little rough and smarty pants. But, so did you in your rant.
I'm to the place that I won't shoot a buck unless... I think he's scores about 115" and is at least three years old. I'll shoot an older deer if I know he's four or five no matter what he'd score.
Needless to say, I don't shoot many deer any more. :^)
I wouldn't however, expect anyone else to meet my current standards, any more that someone else should expect me to keep his standards.
If it's legal... have a good time, play the game the way you want to and enjoy yourself.
I have to agree with Jim Casto. As I see it the guy did nothing illegal. There could be a number of reasons he shot the spike--he probably just hunts deer. Unless spikes are not legal where you were hunting I don't see where you have any complaint. Poor shots happen. You could have put the deer down for the older gentleman and been a help to him. Where I hunt deer are pretty scarce this year and if I shoot a doe that is two or three deer that won't be there next year.
Guys welcome to the new type of hunter. If you or your deer don’t meet their requirements then you will be what’s wrong with hunting. And this is suppose to be improvement.....
What I don't get is why didn't you put a wounded animal down. Why let it suffer. Cause it was a spike? Why berate another outdoorsman ? You might want to look at your decision making before you question others.
I think you missed it HUNTMAYNARD. If it was legal, what's the problem? I taught my son to put meat on the table and to do it within the law. Way to much importantance on antler size. Rack stew isn't very tasty! We can kill big deer here in the south and then come to the northern counties to fill the freezer. I'm not ashamed of "if it's brown it's down" during gun season. WE EAT DEER. You don't know that mans situation. He may have a hungry family at home and HAD to close the deal. I would have give him a pat on the back and helped him recover his deer. My boys Mingo Co. 10 point and Mason Co. Spike and I couldn't be prouder :)
First off, I'm glad the kid is enjoying hunting regardless of kill.
However, you just said you hunt big deer down south and fill the freezer on us. You quote you eat deer and if it's brown it's down but don't apply that to your own county where you wait for a trophy.
If rack size isn't important and meat on the table is, why wait for a trophy in your home county and kill the first thing you see for meat in another?
We don't know the man's situation and the first thing we point out is he probably needed the meat, however, I bet he probably didn't need the meat when the three day early doe season came along.
For all the hunters in desperate need of meats, one would think that early doe season would be much more utilized.
I don't think meat was an issue, cause he didn't shoot the doe that was with it that probably out weighed the spike by 100lbs. i understand not all neighbors have the same philosophy. but i have killed enough little bucks, that someday i would like to have the opportunity to harvest a nice mature buck before my days in the woods comes to an end. just my opinion you don't have to agree with it. sorry to ruffle someones feathers.
Before you criticize us, know that was my boys first bow kill. We don't hunt for horns. Just so happened his first was a good one. Killed on our property also. It's bigger than anything I've ever killed, so good for him. I kill the first doe that comes along and usually don't even take a buck unless I'm lucky. I don't get enough time in the woods with work. You all complain you have too many deer in the northern counties. Seems to me you would want me to spend money on a license and help thin an "overpopulated" herd. All goes back to what's important to you. Horns or meat? My point is, I don't pass judgment on the way any man hunts as long as he does it legally. Am I doing wrong in your eyes? We buy license even though I'm a landowner and then I travel to a county were I can gun hunt. I target a county where I can LEGALLY kill a doe and a buck. Not an 8 pt or 10 pt, or whatever you deem acceptable, but a buck.
A little sidetrack here, but you guys know good and well NO ONE kills deer because they NEED the meat. If they’re that desperate, all they need to do is go down to the local office of the WVDHHR and get the stamps or call the sheriff’s office and get on the road kill list. It would be a whole lot less expensive than the rifle, ammunition, license, clothes, gas and time. :^)
Getting wild meat has nothing to do with NEED; it’s all about recreation and want. Except, of course for those guys up where Dr. J.R. lives that have to show their buddy’s, they “got their deer.”
Don't give it a thought. I don't think you ruffled any feathers at all. We all have different perspectives and some of us just simply pointed that out. .
I always thought it was ironic that the person in desperate need of meat on the first day of gun season was not in desperate need of squirrel the first day of squirrel season, rabbit the first day of rabbit, or bluegill from the local pond. Probably doesn't even have a garden. That's the cheapest way to eat for the same cost of a license.
Sorry guys, I'm not trying to stir the pot. Im all for quality deer. I'm just not gonna tread on another mans right to hunt within the parameters of the law. Any of you all are welcome to come hunt with me :)
"... I'm just not gonna tread on another mans right to hunt within the parameters of the law..."
... and neither am I. We had a pretty big rhubarb here a couple years ago about that. It's just not a good thing to set standards for someone else engaging in a legal activity.
I am sorry this stuff about hunting being for the recreation point of it is baloney. I hunt to get deer a because I want to put good meat on the table that is healthy and good for me. That is the first and foremost issue - Now is it fun to do that you are darn tootin it is. I don’t want to go get a handout and this is one of the reason hunting is going the way it is because some people look at it as just entertainment and putting mounts on the wall. God gave us these animals because it was good - I think he meant as table fair and not entertainment for us to release our inner predatory instincts to kill something. JMO
Hunting is ALL about recreation and WANT. You apparently fall in the WANT catagory--when it comes to meat. You're seriously not going to tell us you NEED deer meat to survive. You can buy vension down at Kroger's you know, or you can raise your own. That'd be the least expensive way to get that "good for you" meat. Of course you'd miss out on the recreation of hunting.
Way too many wasted deer and animals with antlers cut off for it to be about meat for some people.
Remember, I feed a large family on venison and we kill does because as a sportsman it's my job to be a conservationalists.
It's not by job to use meat as a justification for anything goes.
I hunt em because I like to kill deer with my trad bow. I also like to hunt big bucks. But I go elsewhere for that. I make no excuses.I do eat the meat though. I love me some deer meat. LOL. Now where is that spike I have been seeing on my game camera.
^^^Anything goes^^^ I said within the parameters of the law. For the record, I'm FOR a 1 buck limit. But I think that it should be 1 buck with bow and one buck with a gun. I do what the state of WV allows me to do.
Oh and I kill the spikes because the landowner where I hunt wants the inferior deer kilt. They are called cull deer or management bucks on tv I think.
J.R., there are hundreds of peer reviewed scientific studies that have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that spikes are not inferior Deer. Given time and age they can grow into quality mature bucks. That has been 100% disproven time and time again over the last 15-20 years.
Hmmmm, just ruminating here the last couple of days on the definition of "quality deer". Is that determined by rack size? Body weight? Just what defines a "quality deer" and does "quality deer management" simply mean growing deer with big racks if that is the definition of quality? It appears that an inferior deer would be one with a small rack, but then we are back to the issue of personal choice/definition. Bet the deer just hate being classified that way. :o)
Quality deer usually refers to mature Deer. Maturity is usually defined as around 4.5 years of age, although some would argue that 3.5 could be a mature Deer for their area. In the purest form, age trumps antler size. However in the majority of cases rack size does increase with maturity. There is ample evidence that the deer herd itself is more healthy with a more balanced Buck age structure and there is little doubt that more mature bucks in a population leads to higher hunter satisfaction. A deer with a smaller rack is not an inferior Deer 99% of the time. It is usually just an immature Deer.
Growing deer just for large racks is termed Trophy Deer management and is another whole ballgame.
There are essentially 3 management styles
1. Traditional deer management, which WV has been doing although lately as evolved with concurrent buck/ doe season and “earn a buck” counties.
2. Quality deer management, which is what a large number of states have evolved to in order to balance the buck/ doe ratio and increase buck age structure and as a byproduct increases hunter satisfaction
3. Trophy deer management which is usually performed under controlled situations such as high fence operations and is usually not practical and feasible for state game and fish agencies.
My good friends grandpa was 92 years old and shot a five point buck with a rifle on his farm several years ago. He had shot hundreds of critters over his lifetime including a 160 class buck which hung in his home. His grandson and i had to get deer out of the woods and do all the necessary things. When we got back in the field the old man cried while thanking us for the help. It was his last deer and i have not met a happier hunter in my life. If its legal to take a spike and it makes the individual happy then i see no problem. I know its frustrating for the neighbors to shoot those little bucks but i try to remember the old man.
Thanks, Greg. I was not aware of the difference between quality management and trophy management.
Dave, I like to equate buck age on par with human age x10. Meaning a 1.5 yr old buck is like a 15 yr old, a 2.5 is like a 25 yr old, etc. like humans Deer have a societal structure in their herd. It is healthier and natural for them to function as such. Much like the world would be a more chaotic and disruptive environment if 15 and 25 yr old men were in charge of everything the same holds true for Deer in THEIR world. Age and maturity matter to the Deer herd because that is what is natural to them. Mature Deer are a different animal than an immature Deer . Much like a 45 yr old man is different than a 15 yr old man.
I read an article a while back written by a guy who used to practice qdm. He said and was originally structured to get bucks to 3.5. I read so many magazines I do not remember which one. He also said he thinks it is now geared towards bigger antlers and not necessarily healthier herds.
Read mission statement on QDMA. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If I wanted to learn about an orginization or a type of management I would research it out myself , obtain as many opinions as I could and form my own opinion. I wouldn’t rely on one persons opinion on anything.
For information purposes only
Mission Statement and overview.
Since 1988, QDMA has worked to promote sustainable, high-quality deer populations, wildlife habitats and ethical hunting experiences through research, education, advocacy, and hunter recruitment. QDMA teaches deer hunters how to improve local deer populations, habitat and hunting experiences.
To enhance the fun and excitement of deer hunting, QDMA encourages the protection of most or all yearling (1½-year-old) bucks combined with an appropriate harvest of does, when necessary, to maintain a healthy population in balance with habitat conditions and hunter desires.
We also believe hunters who have never killed a buck should be able to choose any buck that makes them a happy hunter, and most QDMA staff members killed a yearling for their first buck. When a deer population is socially and nutritionally balanced, hunters witness the full range of social behaviors. “Bachelor groups” of bucks can be observed in summer. Rubs and scrapes are more common in the woods. Hunters witness more buck fights, see more bucks chasing does, and more often hear vocalizations like grunting. Calling techniques like rattling are more productive. Overall, the rut is more apparent and intense, leading to a more enjoyable hunting experience and higher hunting success. Other benefits include dramatically increased success at finding shed antlers, which also leads to greater knowledge of travel corridors, bedding areas and feeding habits. Working with habitat and planting food plots increases a hunter’s connection to the earth, to wildlife and the outdoors, and many QDMA members report happily that hunting becomes a year-round pursuit instead of being limited to hunting season.
Of course, there is also the benefit of having a better chance of seeing and harvesting a mature buck, because more are present. Given good nutrition and other benefits that are part of a socially balanced deer population, bucks can express their full antler potential in each year of their life.
In today’s North American hunting culture, antlers are the most common and easily visible symbol of hunting achievement, but for QDMA members, many other rewards and benefits are equally cherished. That’s why we at QDMA measure success in memories, not in antler inches.
Jim if it ever comes down to me not wanting to get a deer for the table and I just hunt to get my jolly off - I believe I would quit hunting. Too me it is sad that we compare our deer to food stamps or going to Kroger’s to get venison. You know there are other forms of recreation then just shooting an animal to have fun - ever think about just carrying a camera? Just because we can run to the grocery store and buy something does not make that the right way or the only way or the standard way to obtain our produce and meat. With all the crap that is pumped into our food now - I prefer going out and harvesting as much wildgame as I legally can. AgAin you guys are bringing me down to think this is what hunting has become.....
JayD, the locovore movement is slowly gaining steam :^)
Gobbler - I guess so I am just going on what my parents and grandparents taught me. I guess they were more hip than what I thought! LOL
Who says we don't want to use harvested meat? Actually, killing does is almost all I have in wv because of brown, it's down mentality and management.
You've apparently misread something along the way. Your analogies have been completely out of context of what my point was. All in all, you don't hunt because you HAVE to. You hunt because you WANT to. You made my point twice already. :^)
sorry Jim I am not buying your ideology of what we have to do compared to what we want to do philosophy. Life isn’t about having to do anything or even wanting to do anything it’s about choosing how we live. From what I am reading one of your choices is to hunt for entertainment and kill something my choice is to hunt for the table and have some fun doing it. Sunday - come up to the Panhandle sometime - I will take you to some places where you have the opportunity to get what you want - last time I checked we hadn’t succeeded from the state yet.
Thanks JayD, you just confirmed again that you only hunt because you want to and have fun doing it. That's called recreation. That's the choice you've made. I hunt when I want and for recreation, just like you. I'm glad we agree.
Oh and btw, my kids were raised on venison.
We are called sportsmen and sportswomen for a reason. It’s nothing new. The American Sportsman was on TV in the mid 60s. Sports Afield and The sporting life magazines have been around for decades. Hunting is synonymous with sport hunting.
In the US virtually no one hunts for survival except for maybe a few Eskimo tribes in Alaska, though most people hunt and supplement their diet with wild game which is a good thing. I seriously doubt anyone is going to starve to death if they don’t get their deer for a year.
I hunt because I enjoy it and it is a sport or recreation for me. I do enjoy the meat it provides but I’m not going to starve if I don’t kill a deer.
In your mind Jim in your mind do whatever makes you happy
Thanks JayD. You do the same.
Gobbler - I am well aware of qdma philosophies and ideas. And I know how to navigate the internet to look at their website. I was just pointing out not everyone is on board with the same ideas and ideas can change. It is kind of funny I have posted some statistics in the past that were gathered from information posted on the qdma website and they are still disputed by people on this site. Ideas can be stated and discussed without making unnecessary comments like I shouldn't rely on one persons opinion. You think that article is the only time I have ever read about qdma?