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Low 2017 Bow harvest X Gun is way up
With all the talk about gun numbers being down has anyone looked at bow and X Gun numbers. Looks like the X gun is for the 1st time going to exceed the bow kill. And not by a little. As of Nov 21 this yr Bow kill is 41,241 X Gun is 42,209.
2015 bow kill was 53,004 X Gun was 34,094. Does this back up the argument gun hunters are changing over to X Gun?
License sales can also tell us. Before X Gun (2013) bow licenses were 266,380. 2014 232,629 2015 227,700 A drop of 38,690 Yet in 2015 they sold 131,623 X Gun license. I have not seen how many X Gun license have been sold this year.
The argument that was used to justify crossbows was that it was going to increase the overall number of hunters by bringing in new hunters. All it has done is convert many archers to crossbow hunters and have a lot of gun hunters buy crossbows. In addition a huge percentage of the young hunters that would have become bowhunters are opting for the simpler crossbow.
The interesting thing is that retailers that loved all the crossbow sales over the past few years are discovering that crossbow shooters don't come back and buy gear every year like archers normally do. At most they go through a bolt and broadhead or two where bowhunters typically buy more gear to try new things or replace what has been lost, worn out, etc.
Skook I was in the sport shop in Ladysmith this fall it was a shame what it looked like vs a few yrs ago. We went in to look at bows hardly any on the wall and they were sighting in a X Gun at the time. In fact very little selection of any thing. I'm not trying to be critical of the owners I spent 20 plus yrs in retail so i get it. Between the internet and many other factors retail is dying. The X Gun didn't help these shops.
Skook, that is something I said from the beginning. Archers are always tinkering with their set up. Therefore they are repeat customers. Crossbow hunters are more like rifle hunters. sight it, case it, forget it. It's a tool, not a fun hobby like archery.
Agree with the above. Well said skook.
Agree skook,,,, no one spends money on stuff they really do not need, than archers, ha ha,,,, each guy must have a million broad heads,,,,,,
I got to give my 2 cents. If people are using what they use. So the buck walks at 5o yrds Durning bow season. He waits till rifle season shoots him. Dead buck. Or now buck walks 50 yrds he shoots him with x gun still dead buck right. Except he got to do it in little better conditions. Each to there own. I wouldn't be proud to shoot mossy horns at 6o yds with a x gun. But if I shot him at 100 with my 270 I would be proud. Makes no sense . But agree to disagree so let's be safe and HUNT ON !!!!!!
Bootspit--because xbows should only be during gun season.
Talked to a guy today, avid bowhunter. He says you wont believe what walked by me bowhunting! I say a monster huh? He says yeah about a 180 incher easy. 35 yards away but i couldn't make the shot. So you know what I'm gonna do? I say what's that? He says going to by a crossbow, I woulda got him for sure. My jaw dropped, I said what?! Why? He says all my friends got them now. I said oh you wana gun hunt then. Pfff laughable and sad
Allowing general use of crossbows has added to the deer are vermin to be killed thought.
Now you have many who treat the crossbow like a gun, not practice, expecting deer to drop in their tracks. You can't possibly take long shots and "hope" to ethically kill a deer.
The one thing that makes an archer an archer is their mindset to resist less than 100% kill shots...period. It isn't a bullet, it kills by blood loss and organ damage.
I have nothing against those with genuine medical reason to stay afield. However, this cross bow thing has really messed up what bow hunting used to mean. You have such mixed skill sets in the woods now that the quality of the hunt suffers from Sept 15 to Jan 3 instead of 9 days around Thanksgiving.
I am a bowhunter because I want the challenge. I can't force that on others, but I can say that including cross bows in the archery season has opened the floodgates to changing archers to "gunners". If more hunters was the intent, that was a pipe dream. It just switched fair-weather archers to gunners. Why does it have to get easier? Why is it necessary to be tempted to have to kill that buck at 35 yards next year. It isn't supposed to be easy. Sorry, old-timer who remembers what bowhunting used to be. What's next, muzzle loader as a lesser weapon during archery season?
Skook and Treefarm, well said.
Friend of mine who's only a gun hunter is buying a xgun to extend his season into the rut next year.
Many people are attracted to xguns like they were to muzzleloaders...as a season extender. Most also don't like to themselves thinking it's bow hunting, they buy it because it is advertised to shoot like a rifle.
Because of this, it should be treated and regulated accordingly.
I'm just about done with Casekiska's book, The History of Wisconsin Bow hunting (great book on bow hunting's history, all should read and reflect on why we wanted to bow hunt) and it brought me back to why I wanted to bow hunt. It was started with a desire of the challenge and a skill that took practice to be proficient enough to ethically harvest an animal. Most went full bore on shooting, gear, anything to better there shot. I went through all the changes in the past years, recurve to compound and now with the inclusion of the x-gun, back to a recurve. When the x-gun thing happened, I had enough. The technology crap, easy way out crap, cost of new equipment, people not wanting to work at something to be good at it, etc. I, was done with all of it. Now I shoot instinctive with a stick and string the way it started and how the season we have now was supposed to be and I feel enlightened again. I love shooting the way I do now, almost more so than hunting.
The only way this stupid x-gun thing will change is if they shorten the season and make the x-gun part of your gun tag. It should not be part of the archery tag, season, or have the length of season it has now. Deer hunting is gotten to be a joke. The passion of the bow is gone for all that have gone to the x-gun and it's sad. Then, I have been bashed for saying this on here in the past, but I firmly believe the wounding/loss rate has gone way up because of these stupid cheater bows.
I am starting to get up there in age now and focus mainly on my hunt and try to block out all the other crap that has happened with our sport. I do love ripping on people at the sport shops that are looking at the x-guns though, that part is fun. But, I lost a lot of respect for those who chose an x-gun instead of the bow.
I told you guys bowhunting(as defined by the P&Y Club) was going to go into a serious decline, while crossbows would flourish. Many of you said I was wrong, bowhunting would grow too and was alive and well. I am calling you out now!!
your right Missouri. I really thought someone in their 20-30's, healthy w/ some pride would not take the easy road, or aloud to by their fathers and friends but here we are. I was thinking much too optimistically. Left alone this will be the trend for the upcoming hunters whom will never by a bow of any kind. Obviously this was rammed down our throats by the mfgrs, shop owners then to the legislators to sell more products. If the X-bow season were shortened then maybe they will buy both? As this is its like others here have said, they are a muzzleloader during bow season.
Select the county you hunt in and do a little research on crossbow harvest and to say that the crossbows have exploded since 2014 is not in the least an exaggeration. This weapon has its place, but we are now to the point that we need find its proper place in the season structure or risk it permanently part of the entire bow season. I vote for it belonging in gun season, unless medically necessary in archery season.
Here's the data for Bayfield County BUCK Harvest:
2014: X-bow 204 V-bow 253 2015: X-bow 269 V-bow 277 (32% increase from 2014) 2016: X-bow 349 V-bow 268 (30% increase from 2015) 2017: X-bow 426 V-bow 297 (22% increase from 2016 (excludes late season)
**Since just 2014, the X-bow BUCK harvest has gone up 109%!!! This is Unsustainable!! I'm sure the data from your county looks similar. Future looks bleak for archers if nothing changes.
Proud to say myself and my 13 yr old son feel its about the challenge not just the kill. It would be interesting to kick the X Gun buyers in the nuts by moving it to ML season. But I don't believe it will ever happen.
*reducing it to run during muzzy season.
I'd give them two weeks in Oct. and put it as part of there gun tag. Maybe that way, they wouldn't get there pink camoed panty's in such a bundle.
It might be worth a letter or email to our representatives and the DNR Board asking them to look at this. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Last nights news paper had the 2017 x-bow license at 149K plus.
Mike F's Link
This would be a time that the bowhunting org's would need to step up to the plate or loose there footing. This train got rolling big time, do you think if it came to a vote among-st hunters it would win? There needs to be viable reasoning's to reduce the season on these things and brought up in a way that heads of organizations should be able to do.
Live2hunt - Just curious if you belong to any of these so called bowhunting org's??
What about the rest of you? The WBH can only do so much to support bowhunting. If you are not a member standing with the WBH you are part of the problem.
The WBH has worked hard and spent a lot of $$ to get what we have and the crossgun law was a square kick in the "balls".
The WBH is and has always tried to get the government to keep their promise to come back to the table and revisit the crossgun season, along with other issues.
I have attached a link to the WBH Presidents message on their website. Take a look and see if the WBH is something you want to be involved in or if you are happy sitting on the sidelines.
This woman would be a good one to voice concerns to: Rep.Felzkowski
She was the representative who pushed this legislation, aided by Scott Meyer of the WI Bear Hunters and a rep from the NRA who no longer works for them. Recently married, her maiden name was Mary Czaja.
Mike, my comment was not to bad mouth on or put down any of the Org's. They have done so much to give us what we have today. Our voices as bow hunters I believe will not be heard being we will be the minority. These Organizations have or should have more power in there ranks to address these issues is what I was trying to say. My local rep is Terry Molton who is owner of a big archery shop in town. They are making money hand over fist with x-guns, do you think he would be a good voice for reducing x-gun hunting? I don't think so.
IMO ads promoting 100 yd range x guns does not help the x gun argument. It should work to archery hunters advantage as it closes the gap between guns and archery and widens the gap between archery and c gun. Not many archers promote 100 yd shots
The deer kill is still down from last year, will be tough to convince anyone we need to make the harvest more difficult. Many of you guys supported crossbows in the beginning and ignored what reality was. Many stated, "hunt how you want as long as it is legal", "crossbows will not effect bowhunting",... as well as many other excuses and uneducated comments.
Here we are...now deal with it!.......... And yes, I told you so!
Live2hunt- I agree that Rep. Moulton would not be a good person to count on to help bowhunters. He is in the business to line his pockets.
You also avoided my question.... Are you supporting the WBH or another one of those that ride the coattails for free???
Are any of you here living in Rep. Felzkowski's area and willing to contact her???
No Mike, I am not a member anymore. I let my membership go. That being said, I am planning on joining WBH or the WI traditional bowhunters Association again. Although the WBH did not support x-gun inclusion, I wish they would have done more for the season structure with them. They basically said they are a viable weapon to use to harvest deer and that was that.
I have everything at home to sign up already.
If you cant beat em, join em! That being said Ill continue to use a compound because I am to cheap to buy crossbow which I cant use everywhere I buy I license for.
I got a very good buck with my recurve on Nov. 7th. Took it to the processor and the guy asked if it was a crossbow kill. I said nope, recure... The guy said they hardly ever see guys like me, I kind of laughed and that most of the deer they had were crossbow kills. So, I 100% am not surprised at Camps posted numbers.
There is no doubt many gun hunters have moved into the xbow season and other archery hunters have converted. However, if you looked at the combined archery/xbow kill totals, they are still right in line with where the archery totals were prior to xbows.
2017 – 83,450 (combined xbows and archery) … …
2003 - 95,607
2004 - 103,572
2005 - 78,450
2006 – 113,918
2007 – 116,010
2008 – 99,284
2009 – 87,241
2010 – 83,833
2011 – 90,200
2012 – 94,267
2013 – 87,628
The combined numbers still appear to be in line (mostly lower) with what used to be the pre-xbow archery totals. Given this, I still don’t see that the sky is falling and that bowhunting is dead in WI. Perhaps my interpretation of this data is wrong. What am I missing?
Bowhunting is defined by the P&Y club. Wisconsin is losing at a double digit rate bowhunters who actually hunt with a P&Y defined bow...... which are hand drawn. Therefore, bowhunting is dying and so will clubs which are supported by bowhunters. Clubs which cater to all archery weapons, including crossbows, are ok and maybe growing at the moment.
The P&Y Club currently only admits animals killed with a bow, not a crossbow. Therefore, their club will be limited in growth potential and will in fact decline as crossbow use spreads nationwide,...... and real bow use declines.
Remember...crossbows are not bows and those who use them as their primary hunting weapon are not bowhunters, they are crossbow hunters. There is a very clear distinction as defined by history and the P&Y Club. Simple as that!
Mb, great info as always. I don't think anyone would disagree with you that xbows are not bows just like compounds are not traditional gear (recurves, longbows).
What is the P&Y membership now compared to each year in the last 20 years? I'm curious at what rate it is declining. It is an important organization that does need growth. Can you provide the same information for WBH too please. WBH also needs to grow. You seem to be well versed in these areas.
I have no numbers. CEO's use simple logic to speculate how to prosper and grow a company, clubs are no different. Anytime there is a decline in potential customers, it is cause for concern. Looking at last month's P&L is past tense . That tells you where you have been, not where you are going.
HGL to me its not about the number of deer killed. That fluctuates with many factors. The bigger story is license sales. Thats what shows the conversion of gun hunters to x gun.
Well this was the first day I could drive, so of course I went to the archery shop.... My friend and owner, had 17 crossbows in for repair,,,, all shooter errors,,,,, talk about some dumb people,,,, He said sales were good, this year,,, however he is selling a lot of compounds......
Interesting information was that he sells a lot of 10 points, or parkers, but was surprised how many want to spend the money on the Ravin, made in Wisconsin, orders backed up from July, on the demand.....
GH, just was watching the Outdoor Channel tonight and saw a commercial for the Raven. It specifically advertised accurate shots out to 100 yds. Wow.
The P&Y club is all about horn is it not? Aren't horn hunters half the problem in this sport?
The orgins of the P&Y club, was to honor the best representative of animals, and to promote conservation efforts to keep the animals healthy and there for all. To raise money, for conservation efforts..... When I became involved in the 70's, it was a very cool organization.....
I would say the last 15 years, it has not changed but too much spotlight has been put on the "hunter" instead of the animal,,,,, any organization is only as good as its membership, but they still contribute a lot to conservation, through monetary means,,,,,
some understand what it is all about, some do not.....
Their monetary means will unfortunately be less as their audience declines in favor of the crossbow. There may be a temporary bump in P&Y membership as diehards weigh in, however it will be short lived as the diehards will die out.
I wonder if the crossbow kill is really that high as I've heard chatter that some guys might be registering their bow kills as crossbow kills because they do not want crossbows sharing the archery season and they think that if large crossbow kill data comes in then the crossbow season will eventually be shortened and they won't have to share the woods anymore with crossbow users that might kill their buck. That same chatter mentioned the possibility of some guys that weren't even successful at harvesting a deer calling "ghost" deer in as crossbow kills, for the same reason. I originally thought that sounds like crazy talk but then thought about some of the die-hard technology/crossbow haters (some of which post on this site) and my thoughts changed and I could see it happening. It should be interesting to see how this all works out.
Yeah, thats why retailers are stocking as many crossbows as they do because nobody is buying them and hunting with them. How can the kill not be high? Its a gun and you have 4 months to kill a deer with one? What a challenge.........
He HunterR “chatter”? Really ? Are you hearing things? Voices in your head maybe?
Ravin advertises their crossbows as "your next rifle". Enough said.
Right on RutnStrut. I agree all the stores are selling a lot of crossbows.aAround here Ace hardware seems to be on the band wagon. They do not belong in the archery season or need a drastically shortened season, period. Its only the tip of the iceberg with crossbows in use now wait another few more years and see.
Do you really call the old archery shops that??? Archery is just a sideline for some.
Lame crowndip check your private messages .Thanks
P&Y is doing very well in a difficult environment. Membership is increasing slightly which is good compared to many organizations which are losing membership. In the Internet age people are not “joiners”.
If you go in the P&Y Website and search the Conservation organizations we financially support each year you will likely want to join. I’m Very proud of this club! C
I like cross bows they are a lot of fun to shoot,,,,, I just think they should be limited, and healthy people, should be able to hunt archery season with them, they can go get a bow, like everyone else........ that said, for gun seasons, I think the xbow for turkeys, are deadly
Hunter R, If you are hearing that chatter, your buddies had better of bought a cross gun license previously.
Holy cow been gone from this site for a awhile. Still comp,aligning and whining about crossbows......funny really ....... I here the same comp,ain't ing Bout compound from by brothers at WTA association saying compound bows are not really bows either. Extreme thinking on either end of spectrum is stupid. Really how many previous compound and traditional archers make up that number of license? You may be surprised. how about age demographic? Over 60 ? How many? Under 16? How many? It's seems funny so many are quick to throw unsubstantiated theory and innuendo. I bought a crossbow incense harvested one deer with GearHead 24" and Slick Trick broadhead. Thought about taking the Shrew Lb out late season but I might use my Kodabow crossbow too. Freedom boys and girls it's about freedom of choice something that is absolutely great about our state and our country. Carry on this is entertaining about as much as the THE VIEW on TV but that show has many of the same charectoristic as this thread ....... LMAO
So if it's about freedom of choice, why even have weapon specific seasons? Have one season from Sept 1st through January 1st any weapon. That's too limiting why not landmine season?
I agree, time for one season.
Not one long season either. Ramjet, you evidently haven't read everything posted. We all know the x-gun is hear unfortunately to stay, but it does not belong with the bow season, and for sure not the length of the bow season. They need to shorten it way down.
Last night I watched a u tube video on a 14th century cross bow they built in the UK, and the music was cool,,,, it is called Mideval Cross bows, and it was no comparison to the long bow, that was quicker and faster ........
So I thought about this,,,,, a guy has a modern cross bow, he can shoot one arrow, I can shoot and reload my recurve, and get 3 shots off, before he reloads it,,,,,,
A guy hates the crossbow, however during ML season, he accepts the in line with scope,,,,,,
sometimes you have to look at the big picture........................
so maybe I am wrong, in my thinking,,,, my friend bought a crossbow, passed 2 shots this year, he will not shoot it, passed 25 yards,,,,, he said to me, I am just no good with a bow, of any kind, and do not want to wound an animal,,,,,, the crossbow is what I needed.......
Maybe it just comes down, to more people in the woods, at prime time,,,,,,, and that is what most of us, do not like,,,,, maybe that is a selfish reason,
just thinking out loud
"Maybe it just comes down, to more people in the woods, at prime time,,,,,,, and that is what most of us, do not like,,,,, maybe that is a selfish reason,"
GH, I do believe it is selfish on our part. My selfishness stems from the ability to spend many days pursuing a deer. The kill is far less important than is the pursuit, but for the pursuit to matter, I need to have some chance of a kill.
The crossbow has the ability to negatively affect both of those things for me. The reduction of mature bucks is one and the potential of a reduced season for me is the other. So yes, for me it is selfish, just as it is selfish for a crossbow user to want the more instant gratification of a quick kill during a time when the weather is nicer and the bucks are more accessible, without the time investment.
Well, how about this proposal: One tag which would be hunter's choice of antlered or antlerless issued for the 9 day gun season, the 4 day doe only season, the Holiday hunt and ML season. Then one tag of the same issued for bow or crossbow season. If reduction in mature bucks is what concerns most, how about one year that is doe only or maybe Wisconsin could just cancel one year of deer hunting.
"maybe Wisconsin could just cancel one year of deer hunting."
That would NEVER happen even if there was only 3 deer left in the state. Too many "hunters" would whine that the 9 day gun is sacred and can't be altered. One of the best things they could do for quality of the hunt, and the herd is move gun season to 1st week of December and eliminate group bagging. But because the gun only crowd always gets their whiny way, it will never fly. Ironically gun only hunters are typically the most uninformed and least serious hunters.
I thought many of you wanted gun hunters to shoot crossbows, an archery recruitment tool. It should now be obvious how dumb some of those thoughts were.
Cancel the deer season in WI! Could it happen?
Yes, because it has.
In the 1920s the deer population in WI was considerably lower than what the WI Cons. Dept. (forerunner of the DNR) thought it should be. As a result, to grow the herd back to previous acceptable population levels the deer season in WI was cancelled for the years 1925, 1927, 1929, 1931, 1933, and 1935.
So, it seems those who govern deer hunting in WI do have the power to and have demonstrated they are not above cancelling the season if they wish.
Close the season? How bout stick the muzzle loaders and crossbows into the 9 day gun season where they belong and call it a day........