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Minimum Age Survey RESULTS
Wisconsin
Contributors to this thread:
Tweed 30-Nov-17
Tweed 30-Nov-17
Inmyelement 30-Nov-17
Tweed 30-Nov-17
CaptMike 30-Nov-17
Inmyelement 30-Nov-17
Inmyelement 30-Nov-17
CaptMike 30-Nov-17
casekiska 30-Nov-17
Bloodtrail 30-Nov-17
Tweed 30-Nov-17
Drop Tine 30-Nov-17
Mike F 30-Nov-17
Tweed 30-Nov-17
Mike F 30-Nov-17
Novice 30-Nov-17
Pete-pec 30-Nov-17
Drop Tine 30-Nov-17
Pasquinell 30-Nov-17
CaptMike 30-Nov-17
Pete-pec 30-Nov-17
ground hunter 30-Nov-17
happygolucky 30-Nov-17
CaptMike 30-Nov-17
Inmyelement 30-Nov-17
happygolucky 30-Nov-17
CaptMike 30-Nov-17
Crusader dad 01-Dec-17
Tweed 01-Dec-17
Mike F 01-Dec-17
Bloodtrail 01-Dec-17
dbl lung 02-Dec-17
Pete-pec 02-Dec-17
RJN 02-Dec-17
Drop Tine 02-Dec-17
Bloodtrail 02-Dec-17
Pete-pec 02-Dec-17
Tweed 02-Dec-17
Crusader dad 03-Dec-17
Tweed 03-Dec-17
Bloodtrail 03-Dec-17
Tweed 03-Dec-17
Crusader dad 03-Dec-17
Tweed 03-Dec-17
Bloodtrail 03-Dec-17
Tweed 03-Dec-17
xtroutx 03-Dec-17
ground hunter 03-Dec-17
Crusader dad 03-Dec-17
xtroutx 03-Dec-17
Live2hunt 04-Dec-17
From: Tweed
30-Nov-17

Tweed's embedded Photo
Tweed's embedded Photo
After a little less than 24 hours we've received 61 responses to the survey. I think that number covers the regular contributors and lurkers.

I can check the results each morning to see if we keep receiving additional responses.

Feel free to argue (keep it gentlemanly) about the results here.

Disclosure: I chose "no opinion"

From: Tweed
30-Nov-17

Tweed's Link
Here's the link to the survey if you haven't taken it yet.

From: Inmyelement
30-Nov-17
So the majority of hunters are against it. Just imagine how the non hunting public views hunting.

From: Tweed
30-Nov-17
Should the 54% run rough shot over the 37.7%?

From: CaptMike
30-Nov-17
This idea was brought to a representative, considered, debated, underwent hearings and testimony and was ultimately voted on by the people we voted into office, then signed by the Governor. I don't know a fairer way that it could have been vetted but I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any suggestions.

From: Inmyelement
30-Nov-17
I'd be more concerned with the 85% or so that don't hunt at all.

From: Inmyelement
30-Nov-17
But to answer your question, it doesn't matter. At the Spring Hearings, people continually voted against xbows, they also always voted against baiting. The majority wasn't listened to then and they won't now. I was listening to a NPR shoe that had a couple of the legislative representatives on. They flat out said the no age limit was to get more money in license fees.

From: CaptMike
30-Nov-17
"They flat out said the no age limit was to get more money in license fees." Do you remember who these people were?

From: casekiska
30-Nov-17
Tweed -

The survey results are in. The numbers are what they are, no discussion there. We are free to agree or disagree with the results.

I would like to complement you on your approach, the way the survey was done, and how this was presented to the forum. From one WI forum member to another, WELL DONE!

From: Bloodtrail
30-Nov-17
Inmyelement -

You keep reflecting back to say " Just imagine how the non hunting public views hunting."

Im here to tell you we have bigger fish to fry than a law that is basically split down the middle and will be all but forgotten about like the 10 year old hunt was/is.

Hunter "image" does more to damage our sport daily then this law could do in 25 years!

"Slob hunters", "trespassers wearing orange", "intoxicated hunters in public" ,"people that choose to carry their deer home on vehicles with cavities exposed and blood streaking down the side of the car", "poachers (even those are not "hunters" - some people believe they are), the "clowns that brandish firearms on public streets to see what kinda rise they can get out of the public". - And this list goes on and on.....ALL these hurt the "hunter image" and your worried about this law? Really?

We have so many REAL worries to our sport!

From: Tweed
30-Nov-17
Can't we worry about both? Could even say we have a better chance of changing a law than other hunter's actions.

From: Drop Tine
30-Nov-17
Why change a law that does not effect you? It was proven safe this year.

The smiles I seen on the kids faces all tell me it was worth it. At first I was vocal against it but willing to give it a chance and it succeeded in all aspects.

From: Mike F
30-Nov-17
Who was this survey presented to? I think it is biased towards the answer you want to see. I had a long talk with my 8 yr old Grand Daughter about hunting this year. She spends time on the range on a regular basis and I offered to purchase her license for her. She didn't feel comfortable shooting a deer, so we will wait until next year, or the year after. She spent time with me in the stand this year and watched me harvest 2 does. She also helped gut and drag the deer out. It's her call, when she is ready she will let me know. I won't push her into it. That would wreck it for her. I don't think the law is perfect. They should have left the one firearm rule in place, but I can chose to do that when the time comes. It's only been in place for a few weeks, let's see how it shakes out after next season.

It will also be interesting to see what happens with the those involved with purchasing the licenses for those under the age of 1....

From: Tweed
30-Nov-17
Mike F- It was presented to Bowsite Regional Wisconsin forum.

I can tell you I hold no bias. I did this purely for curiosity and generate conversation on support.

What bias do you see in the survey question? The answer options were simple - yes, no, no opinion. I thought that was about as straight forward and unbiased answers I could choose. I'm open to your suggestions.

From: Mike F
30-Nov-17
Tweed - It is biased toward bowhunters, not toward other hunters and non-hunters. I didn't mean to imply that you hold a bias towards or against the law.

The only suggestion I have for all bowhunters is to support the organizations that support our bowhunting heritage, and not sit on the sidelines.

From: Novice
30-Nov-17
Mike F kudos to you as a grandparent. Sounds like your doing a great job and helping bring your grand daughter up in a healthy way. Good luck to both of you, whenever you guys decide she is ready.

From: Pete-pec
30-Nov-17
Oh Pat, thanks for the perfect analogy.

"Slob hunters", "trespassers wearing orange", "intoxicated hunters in public" ,"people that choose to carry their deer home on vehicles with cavities exposed and blood streaking down the side of the car", "poachers (even those are not "hunters" - some people believe they are), the "clowns that brandish firearms on public streets to see what kinda rise they can get out of the public". - And this list goes on and on.....ALL these hurt the "hunter image" and your worried about this law? Really?"

Are these the same slob hunters who are those same parents who are best suited to decide when their child is ready to hunt?

From: Drop Tine
30-Nov-17
I’m sorry but I refuse to bow and hide what I do so not to offend those that walk around dressed as giant P***Y’s.

From: Pasquinell
30-Nov-17
LMAO Pete! I heard they are lowering the age of falcon ing licenses and criteria for getting the license.

From: CaptMike
30-Nov-17
Pete, I asked before but I'll ask again. What qualifies you to make decisions for other people's kids? If you are not qualified, who then?

From: Pete-pec
30-Nov-17
I'm not. I'm asking that a qualified hunter's safety instructor be the one who's qualified to determine if little Johnny hunter savant is qualified. As similar as a driver's education instructor. As similar as a pilot instructor. As similar as a professor, a teacher to determine that you can move up a grade, graduate, get a diploma or degree.

Pat suggests that slob hunters make us look bad, points out examples from a law enforcement perspective, and doesn't recognize that these slobs are also parents, and you two suggest parents are best at making decisions? Fine, my mom says I'm ready to be a heart surgeon. Are you willing to go under the knife? I mean come on, it's just a scalpel? Honestly, I don't mind having discussions with people that are willing to reason. Unfortunately, too many people either avoid saying you got a point, or are so mind blocked, they refuse to listen, that these discussions that are mostly opinion and heartfelt go nowhere. It's like politics. You have a democrat and a republican in the room. The Democrat says "man, Trump is a narcissistic moron"! The republican instead of agreeing, replies with "oh yeah, well Hillary is a liar" truth is, both are right, but we just have to so damn right, and there's obviously many answers. Me included! I have 8 siblings, I can do this all day! LOL!

Just like you said before. We will agree to disagree. That we can agree on, but if your argument or my argument has no merit (considering our point of view), we must keep trying to sell our point of view, to someone not in the market. I think it's about the silliest damn thing (this rule), a few of you support it, therefore I can't help but think your silly too! No harm. I don't hate anyone for it. I just simply cannot believe people's stances on things.

Be good! Go mentor a kid. The idea itself is wonderful!

30-Nov-17
Okay, to be fair, how many accidents were there this year, with kids? How many adults, shot themselves, or another hunter?

From: happygolucky
30-Nov-17
Very well stated Pete. Not many are able to be open minded and even listen to others opinions.

And no Pete, you may not operate on me even though you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently and are therefore qualified :).

I am not for or against this because I can see the value when this is used properly. By properly I mean by parents who "get it" and would only allow their child to hunt when he/she is damn ready. Ready means having the ability to handle and shoot their weapon properly and understanding and accepting what taking a life means. The latter is a huge one that keeps many youths from hunting. It can be traumatic to some kids.

My biggest issue with the whole thing relates to the fact group bagging is still legal and youth doe tags can be used by group bagging in buck only areas. I don't agree with multiple firearms being allowed with the mentored hunt. I would be OK with non-firearms. I have no doubt that many parents will use this as an opportunity for them to take more deer.

From: CaptMike
30-Nov-17
It is illegal for a mentor or anyone else to fill a mentored hunters tag.

And, for those who chose to talk before knowing, and direct from the rules:

Junior Antlerless Deer Tag (youth under age 18) Hunters ages 17 and younger will be issued a statewide Junior Antlerless Deer Tag with each license. This tag is valid for taking one antlerless deer in any DMU statewide on the land type specified on the tag. It may be used during any open deer season with the appropriate gun, archer or crossbow license and weapon authorized by that license. This tag may be filled ONLY by the tag holder and may not be filled by another hunter.

From: Inmyelement
30-Nov-17
Capt., it was Kleefisch and Stafsholt.

From: happygolucky
30-Nov-17
You are spot on Captain. I did not realize that was part of the rule change. I thought it was applicable to group bagging being allowed for youth's extra doe tag. I stand corrected.

Assembly Bill 455 This bill eliminates the requirement that a person be at least ten years of age to hunt under the hunting mentorship program, leaving it up to parents to decide. The bill also eliminates the current limit of one (1) hunting device that a mentor and a mentee may have while hunting. They both may now carry hunting devices. Finally, the bill prohibits a person who is serving as a mentor in a group hunting party from killing a deer for the mentee or using a deer carcass tag issued to the mentee, in line with other statutes with youth hunting.

This is what I was referring to:

Question 2: If my son, who is a youth, and me are hunting together during the gun-deer season with gun-deer licenses and firearms, can I shoot an antlerless deer and tag it with my son’s antlerless tag?

Answer: Yes, although the spirit of the statewide junior antlerless tag is to promote extra hunting opportunities for our young hunters. Still, yes, you could fill your son’s unfilled antlerless deer carcass tag because it would be under legal group hunting.

From: CaptMike
30-Nov-17
" I thought it was applicable to group bagging being allowed for youth's extra doe tag."

Happy, in your defense, that was allowed when the law was first written. It was brought to the attention of the legislators and was rectified with this most recent legislation.

From: Crusader dad
01-Dec-17
I voted no opinion. Some are getting their panties in a bunch over this and in reality it's not a big deal. I like the two weapon rule. When I take my son or the kid I'm mentoring they are only allowed 20 yds max. If a buck is out at 30 than that gives me the chance to shoot it. Seems fair to me.

From: Tweed
01-Dec-17

Tweed's embedded Photo
Tweed's embedded Photo
This morning we now have 100 responses, with 35% is support of this.

From: Mike F
01-Dec-17
Crusader - It isn't a fair, more like a circus.....Sorry, just had to!

To each his own. No one knows your child and their abilities better than you do.

From: Bloodtrail
01-Dec-17
Pete-Pec -

"Are these the same slob hunters who are those same parents who are best suited to decide when their child is ready to hunt?"

Yes, these are.

As well as murders, rapists, democratic protesters, cross dressers and everything in-between as parents here in Wisconsin. There also are Doctors, Lawyers, Firemen and blue color workers, hard working men and women, flag waving folks as well, making those decisions...

I hope no one is surprised here.

Much like everything else in life, nothing is perfect and that includes parents. Some are better than others and some should have never been allowed to give birth.

But I still believe, that parents who are interested enough in hunting and interested enough in their individual children(s) are more than able to make a safety call. Parents are making "safety" calls everyday when it comes to children.

I think we can look back to the 10 year hunt with much of the same "rhetoric" are seeing here today. These parents as well have to make that same decision.

Why would I expect these parents to make any worse decision on younger children? Mom and Dad have done a great job with our 10 year olds.

Thank the good Lord and Greyhound what people feared has NOT come true to date. But, far and wide the 10 year old hunt has been very successful.

What has come true.... is three (3) adults shot themselves this year while preparing to deer hunt, deer hunting or ending the hunt. Our respective 10 year olds, bless them, once again, went without accident or problem.

So Yes, some Mom's and Dad's are just trashy, terrible folks.

But I also believe that these "types" of Mom's and Dad's don't care about themselves, each other and even less of their children. They are the type(s) that care less about hunting and even less about their kids hunting.

Be nice to live in the perfect world...wouldn't it?

After the dust settles, this too will pass.

From: dbl lung
02-Dec-17
So it would appear those infants who filled there tags showed be ticketed.

From: Pete-pec
02-Dec-17
Pat, wouldn't the better compromise have been hunter's safety for everyone? This discourages the slobs in a much stronger fashion in my opinion. Why do you think they don't make kids under 10 take hunter's safety including the field test? You already know that answer of course. That is all I'm suggesting, even though the rule has been passed. This does not support hunter recruitment, instead, it lowers the average age of the Wisconsin hunter with a fabricated method.

From: RJN
02-Dec-17
Pete+1

From: Drop Tine
02-Dec-17
Aren’t all ways to hunt fabricated methods? It would be hard for kids 10 and under to take and pass the course being it geared for youth 11 years and up.

The only thing I oppose is the two weapons allowed in a mentored hunt situation. This hunt was never intended for the mentor to hunt he/she is there to guide and oversee the youth in their attempt to hunt.

How does huntersafety discourage slobs? There are 10’s of thousands of graduates but yet in WON Cuff and Collars there are many graduates getting them selves in trouble.

The participation rate is always highest in its first and second years when a change is made. It’s proved itself to be a safe hunt.

From: Bloodtrail
02-Dec-17
Drop Tine +1

Actually Pete - they don't "make" anyone "take" the hunters safety course. You can still hunt in Wisconsin without it, under the mentor hunt. This is the same program that would effect those children under 10. But they don't "need" it as they will always be hunting with a mentor until the course is taken and passed - but it's HIGHLY encouraged that everyone attend.

Sop in essence - before that young person hunts alone - Hunter's Safety needs to be in place for everyone.

I see your point!

From: Pete-pec
02-Dec-17
Thanks. I see you read thoroughly lol. Can I say it one more time. It doesn't have a bearing on me whatsoever. I was just thinking aloud. I'm normally one of those people who doesn't get all riled up by change. My wife did daycare for years. I coached kids. I just know the capacity of kids at certain ages. I feel like as a parent, I'd make the best decision for his kid, at the same time I blew it with my 10 year old. I wanted her to hunt more than she did. She simply wanted to make her daddy happy. I didn't recruit a hunter. I could not imagine her not loving it as much as me. I feel with this rule, it's obviously a demand by adults, and are they going to blow it like I did? Well, that's on them I guess. I don't see it as a recruitment strategy. It might just backfire to some degree?

And I see your point as well.

From: Tweed
02-Dec-17
The hunters safety course is the most affordable education that's out there and very accessible to everyone in the state.

Don't really see a reason for not making it a requirement for mentees if they plan on taking an animal.

From: Crusader dad
03-Dec-17
Tweed, what about a situation like mine with my buddy Brian? I had no idea he was even interested in hunting and only found out well into the season. He wouldn't have time to finish a course and field test before the season would be over. He's definitely going to take HS but the mentor hunter law is doing for him exactly what it was meant for imo.

From: Tweed
03-Dec-17
The course is only 6 hours and usually split between two days.

If a kid has time to sit in the woods, they got time to take a safety course.

I'm sure you're providing Brian plenty of training and thousands of other experienced hunters are doing the same but I also know plenty of dad's that force their kids into the woods and show no muzzle control.

The DNR has made it so convenient kids can take the course online.

From: Bloodtrail
03-Dec-17
Tweed - I don't know where your getting your Hunter's Ed courses, but our course is a minimum of 8 hours and we have a Saturday field day as well that is an additional 2 hours.

The WDNR is driving hard to the net to reduce the time of HS program, which I and all other instructors here are against.

Shane makes a good point - the mentor program is a great program and works well in situations like Shane's.

I and other Instructors shy away from the on-line course as in our opinion there is no substitute for on hands training and interaction. Some adults could do well with the on-line course however.

Also, try and find a HS course that fits your schedule or one that is available. Before I taught my daughter and I drove nearly 45 minutes one way to get a course. Not always that easy...just saying!

From: Tweed
03-Dec-17

Tweed's embedded Photo
Tweed's embedded Photo
Looks like we're both wrong BT. This says 10 hours. Are you still teaching?

(edit: 8 course hours +2 field hours=10 hours, my eyes passed over BT 2 hours initially)

Got a busy schedule? DNR addresses that with the online course.

Does it work good for Crusader and many other? Absolutely!

I also believe he can successfully teach Brian and his two sons how to be great drivers....doesn't mean people shouldn't take a written test before getting a learner's permit.

From: Crusader dad
03-Dec-17
The course at shooters is 6 weeks, 2 hrs each class. The one at bong that my boys took was one sat. 10 hrs total. Brian is going to do the online after Christmas and take his field test with the guy from shooters. You are right though Casey, Brian could have easily been done with the online portion of HS by now.

Now, if these darn geese would shut up I might have a chance at hearing an approaching deer. There's gotta be at least 200 an they've been going bonkers since I got here at 5:20.

From: Tweed
03-Dec-17
For me, personally, taking hunters safety made my first hunts that much more special. Lot of anticipation. I studied and read and watched any Sunday morning show there was.

I personally believe this anticipation is what help retain young hunters.

From: Bloodtrail
03-Dec-17
Tweed -

Yes, I'm still teaching and so is my wife and now my son graduated from "Junior Instructor" to his adult Instructor status. It's a family affair!

My Father would not let me hunt until I was 15 years of age. I walked along with him rabbit and pheasant hunting. He'd let me handle the 28 gauge with a couple soda cans and then to pigeons in silo's. My first hunt was a rabbit hunt.! Dad loved to hunt rabbits.

I'm sure he's laughing at me as I now hunt rabbits with hawks!

There was no such thing as "HS" when I was young.

My first year, I was the holder of a "party tag" and shot a gigantic doe.

I was "King of the World" that day! Remember it like yesterday!

From: Tweed
03-Dec-17
You kind of touch on another point I believe. - there's too much emphasis on deer hunting. Pheasant, squirrel and rabbit hunting are much more enjoyable and many, many teachable moments to a youngster other than sitting all day waiting for a deer to come by....just not as much bragging points.

From: xtroutx
03-Dec-17
Tweed, I agree with your above post. Small game hunting is very different from "sitting all day waiting for a deer to come by." Alot can be learned from actually walking thru the woods and hunting. Not so much sitting still and being quiet. To me hunting is just not about shooting, its about the whole experience, learning to navigate thru the woods,game trails,sign,ect.. You dont see youngsters small game hunting sleeping in a chair. I think it is a great place to start.

03-Dec-17
Children are going to hunt like their parents do, after all, they are the mentors,,, for some it is all good, but to me, remembering my childhood, so many will miss out on so much.....

They will not be out cutting country with dad, and learning about the woods and creeks, and wondering where that beaver pond is, and once finding it, saying, boy next summer we are coming back here,,,,, They will not realize, what a trophy that 3 pointer was, and will never forget, the day they either miss or get, a nice 8, and say WOW,,,,,,,

I know today it is different times, but so many, are missing out on so much,,,,,,,

when I sat in a blind, out of natural materials, dad would say, "are you cold?", and we would build a fire, and toast our lunch up and laugh, and not worry so much if we spooked a deer,,,,,, we were there for the fun, and togetherness.....

From: Crusader dad
03-Dec-17
The last few posts have been eye opening. Those are things and opportunities I have not taken advantage of with my own kids. I'm going to make it a point to get back out there and do things like that that I have neglected.

From: xtroutx
03-Dec-17
GH, Your absolutely right . I got my first deer sitting under an apple tree warming my hands over a small fire dad made. The deer came out on the far end of the orchard. Funny thing is, we seen that deer early morning in the woods and chased it all day long. Sat on a deadfall and had lunch, chatted and laughed. Ended up shooting it right before dark in the orchard. I will always remember that day. I was 14 at the time.

From: Live2hunt
04-Dec-17
We would build fires all the time, some of the group still do. There were so many deer taken and seen with a fire going I started thinking it made them curious and would come over to investigate. It does also provide some great cover scent.

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