Get the Popcorn
Connecticut
Will be curious to see where this goes. I bet it won't pass. Maybe on the UP, but hunting in parks in Detroit and Flint? Sure. Politicians will love that.
Here is why the bill came about. The Boogeyman WB is doing a combination sterilization/sharpshoot in Ann Arbor. Funny though that they're ramping up the lethal component.
So let's look at how to STOP the deer from over populating city property, or at the very least some less costly alternative methods.
According to Doc, if you let a few hunters in these areas and cause them pain, the deer don't stick around,....problem solved. How about you have the city plant vegetation on it's property that deer don't eat, therefore there's no food, they starve, die, and the city's parks are still intact? How about putting deer fencing around the parks, it's a permanent, yet costly (no more than paying WB year over year) solution, so deer can't feed, they starve and die. What if you put up deer crossing signs and reduce the speed limits where the collisions occur? Probably not as effective, but a lot less money and the politically correct thing to do, right Doc. Rather than dart and sterilize, the city could dart and place electric fence collars on the deer, you know Doc, like the example you gave in another post about how deer get trained just like your dog. The bottomline - WB still won't tell these cities and towns that unless they re-hire WB again, in about 3-5 years, you're still going to have a deer problem. But WB is not obligated to provide the truth, they are in it for the money, nothing more, nothing less. They will never provide the information that kills the golden goose.
Bob. Good point about being proactive about deer management. Hunters can do that and maintain populations and keep them from exploding. But it never happens that way. Municipalities wait till deer are in crazy high abundances before taking action because that is when the general public finally clue in and make their voices heard. Your other suggestions are fascinating and so on point that I think you should consult for the DEEP Wildlife Division after you retire. And I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of WB. Do you? Golden goose? Who then is going to capture the animals and “place electric fence collars on the deer?” Do you think city residents will be cool with deer starving and dying as long as their parks are still intact? There is obviously a market for non-traditional management of deer in certain situations, else my good buddy would be out of a job.
Just made more popcorn....
You two would argue about who is prettier..Betty or Veronica..Maryanne or Ginger..
Last word on the WB argument is this - it doesn't work. Pay WB all that money and in a few short years you do it all over. That's one fact you can't argue.
https://youtu.be/kTvKaLW5bu8
Not to digress, but.... Betty. Maryanne.
Yup. Deer management is not a one time deal. I think we can all agree on that. If the cities are willing to pay WB to manage their deer year after year, I don't see the problem other than WB has a good business model. And a willing customer.
Have your good buddy Tony D from WB tell the taxpayers he's taking their money every few years and then tell them hunters are willing to pay to do the same thing. But don't call it hunting call it culling so they can kill deer with all of the restrictions removed, just like WB. He won't because he's lacks a moral compass. Money is the thing he worships.
Dude, give me break. If hunters could manage deer as well as they could, they wouldn't still be in business. Until hunters actually manage deer, WB will always have plenty of business successfully handling overabundant deer for a fee.
The DR has a point...You can't be worry about deer numbers if your in that business....it's like crop damage .....it's not hunting it a eliminating numbers
Doc, give me a rifle, bait, access to hunt the parks, no 500' clear rule, at night with a flood light and brown is down. It's called target practice, not hunting. WB is not good at what they do, they do what any decent shot can do. No hunting skills required. You don't have a leg to stand on and you know it. Quit while you're behind.
Right. It's not hunting, nor is it as easy as you make it to be. No one is disputing that it's not hunting. If hunters claim they can get it done, then they need to get it done. Else, customers will utilize the services of those who can get it done. They don't care how, just want results from anyone who can give it to them. If they're willing to pay, that's at their discretion.
Doc, not hunters, cullers. You know, no rules. And, YES, it is that easy. I could have shot 8 different deer last week with a high powered rifle, and that was going by the rules for hunting.
Bob if you shot 8 deer last week that would make you a POACHER !!!! not a hunter---just sayin !!!
kent - great point. What I should have said is hunting during legal hours with the 500' clear restrictions on approved hunting areas.
WB is a service provider. If there wasn't demand they wouldn't exist. There is nothing wrong with the service they provide.
What WB does has nothing to do with hunting and hunting do have nothing to do with WB.
Comparing the two is silly. I am happy that hunters either choose not to and in many cases are not capable of providing the same service WB provides. The line between the two shouldn't be blurred. If hunters were willing and/or capable of eradication at the level WB provides or claims to provide, they wouldn't be hunting anymore.
Well, I agree that what WB does is not hunting, it's killing. However, where Toonces and Doc miss the point is the MONEY. What I said is,.......hunters would pay to cull deer in city parks and town property where hunting isn't allowed. It's the financial impact of WB that makes no sense to me as a taxpayer. So if Tony D from WB were honest, he would tell these politicians that what he does cost too much and is a waste of money because it needs to repeated year after year. You know, like hunting season. Let hunters do the culling and the financial impact is reversed, it's a money maker for the taxpayers. The city could require a 2 person team for each stand location, one shooter and one spotter. Both would need to meet the minimum requirements for the hunt through a testing process and they could get a special permit for culling to be used in the future. This would generate a large pool for hunters willing to pay to cull. Hunters get meat and the cities get the problem solved for no cost. Tony is the snake oil salesman of years ago. Selling a false promise and a huge expense. Just because politicians are too stupid to understand the flimflam doesn't make it right.
12:25. Sounds like there are lots of deer in NW CT. So why are you complaining so much?
Doc - that's when I know you don't have a valid rebuttable,.....deflect! Gotcha!
Bob, you make me laugh. Bob, listen, hunting isn't always the solution. I know hunters desperately want it to be, but the reality is that it is not. Hunting within NY City limits just can't happen and that's the reality. So, deer management needs to be paid for. WB is selling a service as Toonces states. If the need for that service didn't exist, neither would WB. There is a reason DeBlasio opted to pay $3 million for a non-lethal program over hunting. Instead of complaining about this and blaming WB for selling something beyond the services they provide, maybe hunters should be lethal, stealth killers of deer. Instead of being mad, ask yourself what we can do collectively to insure when a guy like DeBlasio think of deer management, he thinks of hunting first, and not WB. Ask my good buddy, he'd agree with me 100% as he's just one guy and can't possibly manage all white-tails across their range.
BBB if money is the issue, your problem isn't with WB, it's with the government that is paying them. Rail against them. WB is just doing what any for profit company would do, sell their services for the maximum amount that the market permits.
If the governments are dumb enough, corrupt enough or desperate enough to pay for the services it's their fault, not WB's. WB is just trying to make money, like any other business.
Doc - personally I am happy that folks like DeBlasio don't think about hunting first when "managing" deer.
Toonces, Oh I agree it's the stupid politicians spending the money, no argument there. And when they spend my money it's worse. And federal funding is my money. And WB is a non profit according to Doc and the WB website, so I'm guessing Tony D from WB has a salary included in that non profit calculation that is pretty steep. My problem with WB is they don't tell these dopes that their service will not provide the desired results, not long term. I haven't seen that statement in ANY of the sites where they've been hired. I'll bet public outrage would be a bit more evident if that fact was put out there.
And Doc - I NEVER SAID HUNTING!!! I SAID LETTING HUNTERS PAY TO CULL THE DEER!!! My anger is centered around paying my money for these programs when they are not effective. It's waste. It's stupid. I could less if it was WB getting paid or if they paid hunters, I would be against both.
Toonces, you are the anomaly. Perhaps enlightened. If you've ever worked or participated in a cull or controlled hunt, it's not fun. It's killing to kill. Hunters think they want to be a part of it. But really, they don't.
Bob, WB are far more effective than hunters. All the handicaps imposed on hunters are lifted to insure that. I think that's where you and your anger are misguided. You really have no clue what they do beyond the Redding project as reported here by Glen. Do some research on your own. 1000 bucks captured and sterilized over a year in an urban setting? Think hunters could do that? Nope.
I have trouble understanding the obsessive hatred of WB. As I understand it they are a service provider for willing customers looking to reduce nuisance numbers of deer. They are not hunters and don’t claim to be. If the state of CT said they were going to ban hunting statewide and depend on WB to manage the state’s herd I would be first in line leading the outrage charge. But clearly there are situations where just opening a small swath of land to general hunting is not a feasible solution. As I understand it they killed a couple hundred or so deer in the Redding area a few years ago as part of a study. The confirmation number for the last deer I got shows we are at over 13K deer killed this year. It is mathematically impossible that they had any meaningful impact on the state deer population. Whether they are worth the money is determined by the free market. Justin Bieber made over $50 million last year - while I will never understand that its really not worth the effort to try to.
Bleydon - No hatred towards anyone or any group on this site or elsewhere. Please don't mistake my passion for wanton waste of money with a person or group. WB is not what they present themselves to be, that's the only problem I have with them. When other respected biologists state that sterilization is destined for failure, WB should reinforce that before signing a contract, but they don't. I have a problem with that when it comes to taxpayer's money. Politicians are ultimately responsible for being dumb enough to spend taxpayer money on wasted efforts. Doc - never said hunters should sterilize deer, leave that to WB. But anyone good with a high powered rifle can kill deer in the park at night over bait. And if they pay to do it, I'm happy. There are other solutions out there other than spending good money after bad, it's just plan stupid. Put deer fences along the highways where deer levels are high. After you sterilize and cull an area, fence it off. You'll save money in the long run.
If someone is going to be shooting deer in a populated area at night with a high powered rifle I am thinking I want said person to have a very healthy liability insurance policy in addition to a regular hunting license. Just sayin’.
You lost me Bob. Other respected biologists say it's doomed to fail because they too are worried it might actually work and would be a threat to hunting as a deer management tool. Like I've said before, let's see what happens, then if it fails, hunters and biologists alike can point and say it doesn't work. But what's painfully obvious, is that both you, and the Cornell guys fear that this might actually work. Bob you can rail against spending, and you can then go to the ballot box and vote for your candidate, just like the rest of us.
Bleydon, appreciate the input. But it wasn't a couple hundred deer, it was 87, on 2 square miles, over 3 years. Just so you're in the know. And agreed that Joe 6 pack hunter probably should be vetted before being granted permission to use high powered rifles at night over bait in urban settings. That should left to the professionals. Not saying hunters couldn't do it, but they'd need some significant oversight due to liability concerns as you point out.
Doc, your true colors come out when you refer to hunters as "Joe six pack". Those of you who think Doc is here to educate us need to read those words over and over.
And so now it's not only the hunters that are ignorant, but it's also other Phd biologists that are not as smart as you and Tony D from WB. The air must be pretty thin where you point your nose Doc. I'm not worried that it might actually work because that would save the taxpayers of NY more money in the future. If it does you can call me out and I'll admit I was wrong. But common sense tells me WB can't get all of the bucks, and you have stated several times that deer don't know boundaries so other bucks will come to the island, just like they've done in the past, and some bucks have already mated with doe so fawn bucks will be born next spring, and the herd will grow in 3-5 years.
In the meantime I found this article to articulate what I've been saying all along.
"Deer culling is an expensive ($800K) failed experiment that was tried for five years and now we're right back where we started from, this is mainly because of the scientifically proven rebound effect. Yet we still hear our citizens parrot our leaders saying "something must be done". And then our leaders consult with very bias "experts" who's main job is to sell hunting rather than unbiased experts who aren't selling anything, see The Experts Speak article. As our former sharpshooter admitted, once you start, it's like mowing the lawn, you have to continue because the surviving herd grows stronger and reproduces at a higher rate." Very interesting!!!
The article above is from a town in Ohio and notice the quote from the FORMER sharpshooter. I've never seen Tony D from WB mention that the "Mow the lawn" analogy in any of the places where he's been hired. Wonder why? $$$
If government wants to sidestep laws in place for hunters, why don't they just snare deer. Way more effective, safer and cheaper.
BBB,
As I recall you are or were in purchasing for a large company. In that capacity no doubt you sifted through countless RFP responses and dog and pony shows from service providers trying to sell you something. Same for me in a slightly different capacity.
WB is trying to sell their services. They are going to make marketing claims that may not always be 100% correct in the wash. It is up to the buyer to sort through that, get them under a good contract and manage the relationship so that the buyer gets what they bargained for. If the buyer doesn't do their homework, enter into a good contract, manage the relationship and expectations, it is the buyer's fault if they end up unhappy, not the seller. If the buyer's expectations are not met they should have managed the relationship so that they available remedies. It is an arm's length transaction. If you are stuck with a bad contract with a service provider that didn't perform up to expectations, that is your fault, not the service provider's fault.
WB is in a business where there is limited competition and their customers are mostly gate keeping bureaucrats with very little skin in the ultimate outcome and very little knowledge of what they are actually buying. That makes WB smart and good business people because they have the leverage. You don't have to like them, just put the blame where it belongs.
Doc, after researching previous hunts completed by WB I did in fact find where Tony D from WB stated it's not a one and done process when culling deer, that it's like mowing the lawn. SO PASS THE CROW BECAUSE I'M DIGGING IN. I apologize to WB, they do present the facts, and let the politicians decide. Always willing to learn and admit my mistakes.
That makes the politicians dumber than I previously thought,......but I guess I should have known that all along.
Crow Eating Bob
Toonces - I agree with your comments, it's buyer beware, and it's what makes me a bit skeptical of anyone claiming that "This is the only fix" or "The best product in the world". My previous post shows that I've learned WB does present the facts, so applaud them for being hones and upfront. They are not the villain here and I know my comments were biased against them. The bottom line in the argument for me is the money,.....especially my tax dollars. CT is a great example of the political elite thinking that they can spend my dollars on whatever failed project they want, like the bus lane from New Britain to Hartford. Cost millions to build and millions each year to maintain. That's what really pisses me off.
12:15 pm. I never said the other Ph. D. biologists were not as smart as me, in fact I fully admit those guys know more about this stuff than I do. In regard to Staten Island what I said was “the Cornell guys fear that this might actually work.” And you are right, the air is pretty thin where I point my nose, not because I think I am so smart, but because I’m so damn tall.
Bob, that quote is not from an article. That’s from a Google blog on deer in Ohio similar to this message board (https://sites.google.com/site/solondeer/what-you-should-know/culling) where any Joe 6-pack can post his opinion. WB had worked in Solon, OH for years, from like 2004-2009. Mow the lawn? Where is this coming from? Anyone in the deer world knows that once you start deer management, you need to maintain it if you want lower densities. This is not news.
But good for you for doing some research so you are somewhat knowledgeable about the topic you were otherwise ignorant about. Like I said previously, if there wasn’t a market for professional deer management services, WB would not exist.
Doc - appears there's also a market for stupid politicians! Simply amazing me what they do with our money.
This thread is over, and everyone is playing nice!?
Damn, I just bought another box of popcorn....
Well, Doc and BBB...there is always Betty or Veronica...Maryanne or Ginger..
How about Trump and Hillary? I could go on forever about that topic!!!
How about Roy Moore vs Doug Jones???
C'mon, Ginger all day long
Nah maryann will curl your toes while baking an apple pie..
SWK - oh thanks!! Pop that bubble.
Yes, that's Bruce's brother now sister.
