Cubed preference
South Dakota
I like the idea of cubing preference in East and West river firearms unit but not so much for the elk and high demand deer seasons. Someone new to any high demand draw may never get one. Your thoughts?
My thoughts are that I am in favor of it. Also, it's still a lottery with a chance for anyone to draw a permit. It would significantly weight to those with the most points but certainly not guarantee a tag. Making one or two types change point draw formats vs. all at once muddies things and creates more internal work for GFP and software programmers setting parameters on the draw. Could it be done? of course. I definitely don't like true preference systems, as that is what creates situations where people will never draw (see Colorado). PPs (no matter what you think of them) do provide a better chance of drawing for those that have applied the most times and (most recently) paid for those points. As with any of these topics, I encourage any resident hunter to voice their informed comments to GFP. We will see where it all goes in the end.
I don't like the idea of cubing the points, especially for elk. The way the drawings are currently structured people with more points have a much much better chance of drawing. I like the idea that kids and people just getting into hunting still have a "realistic" chance of drawing. Brotskys daughter got to to on an awesome unit 2 elk hunt this year, she drew with only a few points I believe. The chances of this happening if they cubed the points would be almost zero. I currently have a boat load of points for everything except rifle elk, I drew in 2013, so I'm not worried about me. I'd like to keep it realistic for my kids to draw, they get excited every year when the draw results come out. I'm not sure who it is who proposed this idea, but I'd guess it is a group of older gentlemen who get frustrated every year that they didn't draw their Custer elk tag. My dad has been saying for years that he thinks they should add your age to your preference points for the draw, which is a horrible idea. That would really ensure that we don't have a next generation of hunters in South Dakota. I think people just need to realize that there are certain tags that you will probably never draw in your lifetime, and that's okay. I'll probably never draw a sheep, or goat tag but I'll keep trying. If they decided to cube points I'd stop even applying for those tags for my kids, it just wouldn't make any sense to throw that money away.
I think it is an excellent idea. People who have applied a long time should have a better chance. The reason for upping the odds is at some point age will be a factor. People do not live forever. Check out what Maine does with the moose preference points. Bonus points that accelerate.
People that have applied for a long time already have a far better chance. This just makes sure that those that haven't applied for a long time have almost no chance. Also, the people that this rule would harm, the kids, won't be commenting during the public comment period.
Yes, my daughter was the recipient of a lucky draw and it was a special hunt. As lucky as she is it wouldn't have mattered if points were cubed or not, she still would have drawn! Ha! I was 100% in favor of cubing however as I've considered this over the past week I'm starting to lean the other way. I like the idea that everyone has a chance. I do feel for those guys that have gone on for years waiting to draw a coveted elk tag. I'm one of those guys. I have terrible luck in the draw. Hell it took me 8 years to get a muzzleloader tag! I think squaring the tags or maybe some kind of improvement on the tiered structure could be put in place to solve both issues. Our draws are going to be going through a lot of changes in the coming years. Please make sure your voice is heard.
Those of you who are saying that this cubed system is bad for kids should think about this from other perspectives...............
My "kid" who is now 22 years old has been applying for a CSP turkey tag since he was old enough to apply at age 12 and has never drawn. He now has the highest number of points (10 points) of anyone in the system. Do you think it is fair that we should be MORE concerned about a new "kid" entering the system losing a chance to draw than a "kid" who has been applying for 10 years? He has already invested 10 years and $50 for a turkey tag.
Another scenario...........I have been applying unsuccessfully for a CSP tag since I was a 12 year old "kid" 40 years ago.
I have done the calculations for some of these high demand tags and it really only "very slightly" increases the odds for the high point holders. For example, I have the max points in CSP archery system (29 points). My chances of drawing the 15+ points tag go from 0.254% to only 0.556%, my chances for drawing the 10+ points tag go from 0.128% to only 0.387%, and my chances for drawing the 0+ points tag go from 0.085% to only 0.353%. These are not "drastic" changes for the high point holders.
You're right, there are very slight increases for the high point holders but it almost eliminates the chance for a low point holder to draw. So it's of very little benefit to you, but does enormous harm to low point holders. The fact that you haven't drawn an elk tag in 40 years is irrelevant. Last year there were about 16,000 applicants trying for 8 tags for the firearms elk season in CSP. Most people will never draw that tag. It's a lottery. As for the case of your son and his turkey tag you say "Do you think it is fair that we should be MORE concerned about a new "kid" entering the system losing a chance to draw than a "kid" who has been applying for 10 years?" With our current system we are already MORE concerned with your son who has been applying for 10 years. He has five times the chance to draw as someone with 2 points. Why should he get 1000 chances while the guy with 2 points gets 8? Actually you have an even better chance of drawing with our current system than just the comparison of the ratio of your points to another guys. For instance in the elk draws. If you have 10+ points they reserve I believe 80% of the tags for you. If you don't draw there you are put in a draw with every one with 2+ points for another 15% of the tags. If you are again unsuccessful you are put in another drawing with everyone who applied for the remaining 5%. In each of the drawings you are given chances equal to the number of your preference points plus 1 for the current year. So if you have less than 2 points you only get access to 5% of the tags. To say that we are more concerned with lower point holders in the current system is a little absurd. Me and my kids will probably never draw one of the coveted CSP tags or the sheep or goat tags, but we have a chance with the current system. I wouldn't even apply for my kids for those tags if they cubed the points.
Did you receive the Draw Probabilities attachment from Dana that was provided to him by GFP ? it indicated that in the Custer rifle draw, the cubed odds dropped to 0% for anyone with less than 14+ points. Who is going to apply if that is the future and the picture will not get better overnight as it would take a long time to clean out some of those heavy point units like H2 and the like. Some of those units probably carry enough applicants that it still would not be a lock for them. I know when I apply that I only have a chance not a guarantee. Sorry your kid is not as lucky as Brots. I like the system as is. Seems like too many people trying to change it for their own benefit. I'm ok playing the lottery.
We must have been posting at the same time grizzly. I agree with you 100%. Where did you get the draw probabilities attachment?
Thanks Brotsky! The draw odds probability comparison was sent to me by a GFP staff member. I e-mailed them all out to the SDBGC and SDBI member e-mail listing that I help with. Opinions will always vary. I just encourage everyone to get as informed as possible, make your own decision and comment to GFP accordingly. Personally, I'm in favor of it but I also know there are many that aren't. It is still a Lottery, it's just a weighted lottery giving extra weight to those that have "played the game" the longest.
Here is the current preference Group Breakdown for CSP permits.
By the way, in case you haven't followed commission proceedings. The Enhanced Preference Point System Proposal is up for finalization today in Pierre at today's commission meeting.
Grizz34:
"The fact that you haven't drawn an elk tag in 40 years is irrelevant. Last year there were about 16,000 applicants trying for 8 tags for the firearms elk season in CSP. Most people will never draw that tag. It's a lottery" I don't disagree about CSP elk tags, sheep tags, and mountain goat tags - the supply of these is too few that very few will draw in their lifetime. I was never complaining about NOT DRAWING an elk tag in CSP. My point was to show that the odds in the cubed system go up only very slightly for the highest point holders. I have in fact actually drawn two BH archery elk tags, one BH rifle elk tag, and one CSP late archery elk tag - I'm not complaining.
"With our current system we are already MORE concerned with your son who has been applying for 10 years. He has five times the chance to draw as someone with 2 points. Why should he get 1000 chances while the guy with 2 points gets 8?" My beef with the current system is that only few extra chances separating a person with say six points from someone with 2 points isn't really fair. if you look at it in a different way, someone starting at the same time as my son could have drawn 3 CSP turkey tags in the same timeframe that he has spent trying to get 1 tag! So no, I don't agree that the current system is "already MORE concerned with your son who has been applying for 10 years".
"Actually you have an even better chance of drawing with our current system than just the comparison of the ratio of your points to another guys. For instance in the elk draws. If you have 10+ points they reserve I believe 80% of the tags for you. If you don't draw there you are put in a draw with every one with 2+ points for another 15% of the tags. If you are again unsuccessful you are put in another drawing with everyone who applied for the remaining 5%. In each of the drawings you are given chances equal to the number of your preference points plus 1 for the current year. So if you have less than 2 points you only get access to 5% of the tags." This is incorrect information. There is no proposal on the table to change the tag allocation. Tag allocation by # of points will not change. For example the 15+ (34%), 10+ (33%) and 0+ (33%) tag distribution for CSP elk and LO (50%), 10+ (30%), 2+ (15%), and 0+ (5%) for other elk will stay in place. Also those for ER and WR deer, those with 2+ points drawing before those with 1 point drawing before those with 0 points would still stay in place. The only proposal on the table is for cubing points.
Grizzly:
"it indicated that in the Custer rifle draw, the cubed odds dropped to 0% for anyone with less than 14+ points". This is also incorrect. EVERYONE has a chance in both the existing and in the proposed system. You just need to calculate to more decimal points than one or two. In Brotsky's example above you can see that even in the current system the few point holders have "zero" chance until about 10 points. However if they showed to 4 or 5 decimal places you would see that everyone has a chance in both systems.
I agree we all have different opinions on what is a fair system. And there is no one system that is best for all when the supply is so far below the demand. I'm at both ends of the spectrum. I'm 52 and I have tons of points for several seasons so I have put in my time, but I also have three sons who are at the bottom of the points game. I knew with points system in our state and all other western states (except NM) that getting in early is critical. I have been applying my sons into numerous tags in numerous states since they were old enough to be eligible so that hopefully by the time they are out of college and get settled into an occupation, that they will have enough points to draw a sheep tag somewhere or draw a good elk or deer tag somewhere. Between the 4 of us I put in 150 - 175 applications every year and we have accumulated nearly 1000 preference points built up in numerous states, but we knew the odds and commitment going in before we started down this long road. We don't expect to draw EVERY tag we are applying for but hope to get lucky and draw a few over the years.
I was planning to go to Pierre yesterday to speak my opinion, but couldn't get away from work. Could someone tell me if the proposal passed or not.
I'm also very curious to see what happened. The email I got doesn't mention anything about the proposal to cube points. I'm assuming it'll pass, as it seems about 70% of the people I talk to about it argue with me:o) I'm okay with that though I still know I right;o)
The proposal to cube all preference points passed the commission yesterday.
Thanks for the info DR. I think we'll come to regret this decision. It's pretty short sighted in my opinion. I wish we had a system like Idaho everybody has the same chance every year, nothing could be fairer. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equal outcome and I'm okay with that.
We will see Griz34, we will see. It's certainly not going to 'fix' people getting a tag they "think" they "deserve". Especially with the high number of applicants for low tag number units (Elk) etc. I feel it will be a more weighted lottery though. Many changes are proposed, we will see what else shakes out in the wash.
We will see. I find it really hard to convince people to do what is right, instead of what is right for them. This is the type of stuff that happens when you have a bunch of pissed off retirees screaming because they still haven't drawn the elk tag they've put in for 36 years for. They still won't draw the tag, but now they've guaranteed that my 14 year old daughter will never draw the tag. Twelve year olds don't sit on commissions, so they don't get much of a voice.
SDBugler, do you understand what this means? "Tag allocation by # of points will not change. For example the 15+ (34%), 10+ (33%) and 0+ (33%) tag distribution for CSP elk and LO (50%), 10+ (30%), 2+ (15%), and 0+ (5%) for other elk will stay in place". It doesn't mean that for example all the people applying for a BH elk tag with 0 PP get to split 5% of the elk tags. What it means is that with 0 PP you finally get your chance to draw at 5% of the tags against all the other PP holders after they've been in two other draws. Our system was already HEAVILY weighted in favor of higher point holders, now I might as well spend they money I would have spent for my family on PP's on Power Ball tickets. I'm glad I apply for all of us in most western states, as it seems SD just overtook Montana as the state with the worst system.
My outlook is this, its not what I wanted but i'll live with it. I do think it will help the East and West river rifle folks get their desired tag earlier. I'm kinda like you Bugler in that I have a boatload of points and will get some advantage in the elk draws. I would not or could not invest the amount of money you spend on all those apps and points. It is your personal choice and I'm glad you can swing it.
I have quite a few preference for that non existent late season archery elk tag that I have never been lucky enough to draw. I remember walking in to our archery club one night and one of the elder gentleman asked the other one if he had got his Custer late archery tag yet. Yes, the other guy replied. I just called out their this afternoon and had them hold the last one for me the first guy says. That will never happen again.
Oh, the times they are a changing. Now I wait and see how the other licensing issues play out. I had a chance and gave my opinion to them. It would behoove all of us to watch the legislative process for things that will affect us. Speak when you have a chance or live with the results.
I have no dog in the fight, but am very sad to see this passed. I sent emails but I doubt, as a nonresident, they even read them. Anyone who supported this is either ill-informed or incredibly selfish. While the top point holders odds will hardly change, kids and new hunters odds will pretty much be impossible. Not only that, but with the way the cubed system works, their odds will likely decrease each year for the first 20+ years they apply. Very, very unfortunate and frustrating to see things like this happen to our sport.
I'm not entirely sure yet either how I feel about it yet either after giving it more thought.. Glad it didn't turn into a full PP system at least.
Griz34 - also agree on a no PP system... I personally think NM is one of the best in the west... Allowing elk, deer, etc applicants to just submit 1 app but mix and match weapons and season (they do a much better job about providing opportunity to multiple hunters in forms of shorter or longer hunts, prime or un-prime season dates, etc) and the biggest thing - no PP's... Unfortunately, once you start down the PP road - there isn't a good way to back out...
If you're over forty and have not started applying for elk tags, you probably should just apply for a cow tag in the first draw as it may the only elk tag you ever get. Once enough people figure this out, there probably will not be leftover cow tags either. The only downside to that would be if in 10 years they finally figure out the faults in cubing and reverse course. Now, you could start buying your 10 year olds preference points so they can hunt in their forties. Ok, I'm done now.
I hope people take your advice grizzly. That will leave more tags for the rest of us to draw. This change isn't going to have the impact you think it will. People will still be drawing elk tags with anywhere from 12-20 points on average depending upon how lucky they are. I can start applying again next year off of my 9 year wait. I will start putting in again and I'll hunt again by the time I'm 60. Good luck on your cow hunt!
Guys, there are changes up for proposal and debate every year. I don't know how all these things will shake out in the wash but things can be changed with enough input. Yes, Idaho and NM have no PPs and some like that. However, nobody can plan those hunts well in advance given that random draw process. Certainly many like it that way and it's what people talking about 'fairness' crave. Those states also have way more elk than SD. Colorado is often mentioned with the True Preference crowd. I am totally against that aspect after seeing what it's done to Colorado limited entry areas and point creep. We can also see that to a point in Wyoming with the 75% max point 'pool'. But again, Wyoming has a ton more elk. We in SD will NEVER have enough elk to satisfy demand. If SD residents want to hunt elk, we have to go out of state or we'll only be hunting elk a couple of times in our lives.
The odds were extremely low before and they still will be for Elk, and of course sheep, goat and CSP. Habitat and population increases are what I feel we can work toward to help increase odds, but those are other topics.
Where the cubed preference will be seen as having a significant impact IMO is with guys who have a very hard time drawing a firearms deer/antelope permit. There are several areas people wish to put in for that may take them 5 years in between permits. For Muzz deer some guys wait 8+ years. Cubed points will decrease that wait time for most. Couple that with the possible changes we see in proposals for deer with combined firearms draws and many will see significant decreases in wait time. Like that possibility or hate it, the goal GFP has stated is to increase individuals ability to get a preferred firearms deer license.
Could we see the same 'combined' draw for elk in the future? I haven't heard that proposed, but I could see the merit. Keep in mind that no changes (save the cubed points) have actually been proposed, much less approved by the GFP commission. IF the proposal for one of the combined firearms deer draws is approved by the commission and people have to make a 1st and 2nd choice, that 'should' significantly reduce pressure in the draw in many high demand (ER rifle areas with few deer, few tags and high human populations) areas. Also, possibly BH, Muzz, CSP, Refuge and high demand WR units.
IF the GFP ever decides to propose combined Elk draws that would do the same...making hunters choose which hunt/unit to put in for. Now remember the current focus group proposal (deer) is to still allow people to purchase individual preference points. Should those changes ever take effect, it would allow people the opportunity to more accurately plan future hunts and rotate their choices based on what points they hold. Lots to think about i know. Of course, when high point applicants (elk) see that it doesn't 'guarantee' licenses just because they have 20+ points many may change their tune. Just offering up for discussion.
Hello everyone, this is my first post on Bowsite. I have lingered around here for awhile, but never had a reason to join as my archery skills are limited. This conversation is actually one of the only I have found regarding this topic, and I wanted to share my opinion.
SDGFP did everything they could to prevent giving a real idea of what this would do to long term draw odds for elk in South Dakota. From the example given in the notice of public comment to the information presented at the commission meeting they did nothing but put a happy face on what they were doing, knowing all along that they were nearly guaranteeing that anyone new to the draw would face an almost impossible task of drawing a bull elk tag going forward.
The talking point of how the draw structure wouldn't change, which has been repeated often here, is disingenuous at best. The current draw structure is already nothing like they present it to be. Take H2A21 for example. In the example posted above by DR it shows the 50, 30, 15, 5% brackets which they and some here hold as a symbol of fairness in the system, the structure that will not change in other words. It is already much less than what they say. For 2017 the 10+ PP group accounted for 76.4% of all the bull elk tags for that unit, 2+ was barely 10%, and 0+ not even 1%. Those lower point categories will now not even be 1% of the total. The way it is written would lead one to believe those tags are being given to those groups, but as Griz34 pointed out above, that is not only not how it works, but the odds for those groups goes way, way down. Pointless, and nothing more that a distraction from how these draws really work. The people with over 10 PP already get 3/4 of the tags, but that apparently isn't enough.
I find it interesting that individuals look at the statistics and assume they know when they will be able to have a decent chance of drawing. Brotsky in particular has stated that he can begin applying next year, and in ten years or so be in the running for a tag. What is missed by people with that opinion is the increased PP of the top group compared to the number of tags given each year. Taking H2A21 again, about 225 people will be awarded tags each year for that unit. There are 2619 individuals with over ten points in that draw for 2017, minus the 225 for 2018. The problem lies in that the 2400 individuals left all gain a point, and 469 people move up into that bracket. Do you honestly think that will not have an impact on odds? There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 8600 individuals in that draw for 2017. every year their odds increase while you as a new applicant decrease, SDGFP certainly didn't mention this in any of their literature. By the time a new person made it to the 10+ bracket there would be 6000 people in the draw with between 11 and 34 points, including probably 1000 of those with between 20 and 30 points. If you think 10 PP at that point gives you a shot you might want to take a closer look at the math.
Loss of revenue was never discussed. Why would I continue to buy points and apply, including the donations that often accompany applications, when I have absolutely no chance of drawing a tag. Bad odds I can stomach. No odds? I refuse to play that game. All the CSP tags are spoken for. It would be pointless to buy points. Not only for me, but for my wife and kids. Individually those points may not mean much, but they certainly add up. Sheep, goat, CSP. Those are all now impossible for a newcomer to even dream of getting. To the poster who said you just need to keep adding decimal places to find your odds, I understand that, but odds and probability are different things. Just because I can find odds doesn't mean they will gain me anything.
I agree with grizzly in that applying for cow tags is probably a best bet. I don't see any reasonable way of drawing a bull tag outside a Powerball chance so might as well do what I can. Which brings up another point, those who like their odds of drawing leftover cow tags can probably kiss that good bye as within a year or two when people realize they have zero chance of drawing a bull tag that is right where they will head. Not a problem for me as I'm sure she will taste good, and yes, I will most certainly enjoy my hunt.
We as hunters are in a small minority. Anytime we put a process in place to exclude demographics for selfish reasons we harm hunting as a whole. Shame on those who would push forward processes that take away opportunity for selfish reasons. If hunting elk matters that much go to Wyoming or Montana, we certainly will. But we are unique in that we have the tools, resources, and knowledge to do so. Many do not, and now this great resource in our home state has been taken away because some people feel entitled to something they were never promised, only promised a chance at.
The whole process felt like a sham to me. They didn't even study the comments, had almost no information to present, and never made any real effort to educate people on what this really means. South Dakota has massive opportunity for those of us lucky enough to live here, but make no mistake, we have lost opportunity with the passage of this regulation.
*I edited this to put breaks in between paragraphs so it wouldn't show up as one massive paragraph.*
I agree 100% Steve but unfortunately it's almost impossible to change the minds of people who want the system more fair for them. I had many conversations with people leading up to the decision and it always came back to the fact that they were getting up there in age and wanted to draw their elk tag before they couldn't do it anymore. When you really crunch the numbers on how long it will probably take to draw an elk tag if you started today it's pretty discouraging. It's not much, but every year I spend about $200 for points for sheep, goat, and elk in CSP for my family. My family is now dropping out of those draws. This isn't the end of the world of course, it's just disappointing to me. Oh well, the Wyoming results come out on the 22nd, and I have a pretty decent chance to draw.
We're really talking about a snowball's chance in hell either way. Prior to cubing you had a 1 in 1,000 chance to draw, now you have a 1 in 10,000. Either way it was going to require a lightning strike to get that tag. My daughter's odds were 1 in 16,000 to pull her tag in H2 and she did it. It wouldn't have mattered if it was 1 in 48,000. You just have to get lucky and have your number drawn. As long as your name is in the hat and they are still pulling names you have a chance. If you don't think it's worth $10 for a chance to hunt elk, sheep, or goats in SD then don't play. My family of 4 costs well north of $300 to apply for all the elk and sheep tags each year in SD and we apply for the leftovers as well which costs more. I'll gladly keep doing it on the off chance that lightning will strike and we'll get to hunt in SD again. I also buy points and apply and in several other western states. It's how the game is played. I'm okay with giving some of these old timers a better shot at a tag. Everyone should get to hunt elk in SD one time before they die, if it gives some 75 year old who's lived here his whole life that chance before my 12 year old son then we can both live with that. His time will come. I'm going to withhold my final judgment on this change until I see what the draw odds looked like after they pull elk this year. I still think the impact will be a lot less than you guys think it will be.
I hope you're right Brotsky and there is really no point in arguing about this at this point.
Always enjoy the dialogue and hearing others perspectives. Especially when informed, thought out and cordial. SteveG, thanks for chiming in, enjoyed your comments. I especially liked the last half of this sentence "Many do not, and now this great resource in our home state has been taken away because some people feel entitled to something they were never promised, only promised a chance at."
I'd wholeheartedly agree with the last half but I disagree with the beginning. The opportunity is still there, it's a lottery and as long as someone puts in they have a chance. I wasn't at that commission meeting and it sounds like you were. Can you expand upon the dialogue and perhaps Q/A during the open comment portion?
I read all the e-mail comments and admit it was pretty split. It's pretty clear to me most of the average guys don't really understand our drawing system. You are of course correct about the percentages, though I guess I'd never heard anyone say they assumed those percentages meant that range of tags only went to those point groups. That part is definitely 'top down' or drawn first then those applications get added to the lower pools as they go, so your odds listed certainly do make sense.
I wasn't personally envisioning a cubed change when we'd talked about things changing previously. Others talked about squared and that would have seemed a reasonable change. We will see how the changes effect things and certainly future changes will happen in many areas.
The older gentlemen who talk about wanting to draw before they can't hunt...well they certainly won't all get tags as your numbers and those listed on the states site bare out. I don't have any answers either really, love hearing all the thoughts from each of you though.
As Grizz and Brotsky were discussing, it certainly may change some folks application strategies. I just keep thinking that we in SD never had enough elk to satisfy the demand, and I don't think we ever will. It's a lottery, someone mentioned it akin to the powerball. I guess the elk, particularly CSP as well as sheep and goat were always that way in my opinion.
I want to hunt elk, therefore I apply in several states and have Idaho, Montana and Colorado as fall backs or primary areas to count on to get a tag and hunt. Certainly, not everyone chooses to apply in several states for various reasons. But I don't think anyone who doesn't qualify as a LO could really ever believe they'd get to hunt elk more than a handful of times here in SD.
Perhaps the answer lies in having NO points, I don't know. But then the generated income and financial aspect for GFP may come back into play. The only opinion I hold for certain is that I never want to see a true top down PP system here. That means NO chance for the best areas unless you were clairvoyant 20 years ago.
As SteveG ended that sentence "... because some people feel entitled to something they were never promised, only promised a chance at."
I couldn't agree with that more. I think the cubed points will be a good thing for firearms deer and antelope apps. I also think it will definitely weight to those who have been in the draw the longest for all apps. How it shapes future elk hunting applications, I guess we will see. I just wish we had more habitat to support more elk so more people could get the opportunity.
i'm waiting to see how it plays out over the next decade. Once you get so far down a road, it becomes very painful to turn back. We will see If the antlerless all start going out in the initial draw once people realize the futility of it. I like to apply for leftover tags as well and that may also disappear. The comment about people not understanding our draw system probably will not change. When they went to the current 2nd drawing leftover elk tags, it took people two years to catch on. Bonus tags so to speak for those who paid attention. Good luck in your draws this year.
I still think they are missing some opportunity for improvements when all they do is focus on the draws... For example instead of focusing on a small amount of tags for super long seasons - I'd rather see shorter but multiple seasons which would increase opportunity (for elk).... For example, an early archery elk season and a late archery season - maybe a 'prime' short early rifle season for the 1st part of Oct with fewer tags but then have a late rifle season for 10 days with more tags... Would give more people an opportunity to get in the field but not overly affect sustainable harvest numbers... Everyone is going to have their preference/agenda's I guess :-)
I am totally against shorter/multiple seasons for elk. In SD, you just have too many people with ZERO experience hunting elk. They need that time to hunt to have a better chance at success. And frankly it just gives more guys who are clueless chances to screw up elk. When I had my tag it was ridiculous what I saw- guys driving on an ATV and bugling every 200 yards, guys sitting on ridges each side of me bugling like kazoos, all while I'm smelling elk and have them within 100 yards. Each time, the elk shut up an bailed. Less hunters and hunting pressure equate to a better quality experience in my opinion.
I am not sure if I am a fan of the cubed preference system. It really changes the long term outlook for someone with few or no points. It went from a long shot to a lightning strike with less than 10 points now. If the changes were put in place due to Unit 2 and CSP a huge mistake was made. There are still tags that are reasonable to draw. And like others have said, once we go down the road it is hard to turn back.
Great conversation here. I as well enjoy hearing others input, and believe we will all know more after this first draw. Sorry to drop a massive post and disappear, but I am in school and life is very busy. I did get an email from SDGFP stating that they are cutting cow elk tags by 1/3.
For what its worth I believe a system more similar to Wyoming would have made a lot more sense. A certain percentage going to the top point holders, and the rest going into a random draw. I think we will see shortly that what we have now is a mess.
Fro
As excited as I was for the elk application to be out I just couldn't do it. Between my wife and I it would have cost $240 to apply for and buy points for the seasons. Prior to the change it was worth it to take a chance, but now the fact is we have no chance of drawing. Better places to put my money. We will decide over the next couple weeks on a cow hunt to burn rifle points on, but we are not even applying for the rest.
Considering continuing to build points for archery, but have yet to take a close enough look at the math.
I wonder how many people similar to us will drop out of BS, MG, and all the CSP drawings. We never really expected to draw, but if there was a chance we would play. Just don't feel like there is any chance now.
How was it possibly costing you $240 Steve? There's Rifle, Archery, Prairie, CSP, CSP Archery, CSP Antlerless, Sheep, and Goat. That's $80 times two is $160. Where is the other $80 coming from? I just spent $310 for my entire family of four to apply for all of them (minus rifle since my daughter is not eligible for 9 years now).
$10 for each application fee and $10 per preference point. This is to continue building points and applying. 6 seasons X $20 per season X 2 hunters=$240
Granted, I could continue to build points or apply and cut that cost in half, i just choose not to do so when I know my odds are very poor. Like, impossible poor.
Steve, you get a preference point with the $10 application fee for elk, sheep and goat. There is not an additional preference point fee for those species. Each one is $10 period.
I stand corrected, thanks Brotsky.
Man, the SD draw system is a wreck. I spend a lot of time trying to understand it, and even I miss stuff. SDGFP wonders why people struggle to understand it. Just wait until next year. Some enterprising young person could make a nice pile of coin helping all the old guys apply online. I'm doing it for free, but there will be a lot of need very soon.
No problem Steve! Hopefully that got you into the draw, you never known when lightning might strike!
I'm going to tell my never have hunted elk nephew to just apply for the cow tag and enjoy the meat. With no preference points at all, it appears hopeless for him but that might help your odds Brots. Some of my odds do not look very good but im in a quandry on the archery elk. I have 7 points. Kind of like no mans land. Probably not enough to win, too many to discard. Ill keep playing for awhile. If we are going to make people decide on which deer tag is most important, why don't we just throw all the big game in a "whats most important to you draw?" Yeah, combine the species and hunts in the sequenced draws. No second tag till the third draw. Good luck in your elk draws.
I'm not for cubing the preference points, but it's what we have now. I was going to pull my kids out of some of the draws but I decided to keep them in all of them. Its only $10 per draw, and even when they don't draw the money goes to a good cause. I love this time of the year. The day the elk draw results are announced is one of the most exciting days of the year! Also, my dad drew in Wyoming so no matter what I'll be hunting elk this year!
Steve, you get a preference point with the $10 application fee for elk, sheep and goat. There is not an additional preference point fee for those species. Each one is $10 period.
IS that something new this year Brotsky? I know I have been paying $10 for the app for elk and $10 for a point the last few years!
James, if you apply and pay the $10 app fee then you get a point if you are unsuccessful. If you just buy a point without submitting an app it is $10 for the point. It is either/or not both. An elk point does NOT cost $20, it costs $10. It has been that way ever since it increased to $10, prior to that it was $5 and the story was the same. If you're paying $20 then you are the only guy in the state that is choosing to pay double and we appreciate your support for our wildlife:)
Well, tomorrow we find out how it went. Of particular interest is that someone with 6 points drew a mountain goat tag. LOL. That is gonna piss off a bunch of people.
I would also like to point out that the sure way to get me to stop bitching would be to give me an elk tag. Just sayin. :)
Well, round one elk is done. How did everyone fair? Nothing for me. It appears like there are fewer leftovers as well.
Nothing for my wife and I. We were not expecting to draw so no big surprise. Antelope, hopefully a WR whitetail tag, and archery mule deer will be our Fall. So blessed to live here.
An older friend of mine who has been a mentor to me drew a prairie elk tag for the Bennet County unit. Limited public land for sure. I helped him with his applications for SD and WY this season, and told him if he can find land and needs the help I will help him haul out his bull. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. He doesn't get around so great these days, but is an accomplished hunter. Holding massive numbers of points for the various seasons so it was nice to see him draw a tag.
If anyone has a lead on land that holds elk and would accept a trespass fee I would sure appreciate hearing about it. I know I haven't been around here for long and it is kind of lame to ask, but I figured it couldn't hurt. Good luck to all going forward this Fall.
Nothing for me or my family. We have lots of points, but we burned our luck up last year! Good luck to everyone who drew! Still have lots of plans in the works for this fall!
Holy cow what a change! The unit we applied for left over cow tags saw a massive difference. Last year there was a 52% chance of drawing a leftover tag with nobody using points. This year 5 people used points and the draw odds dropped to 16% for the rest. Same general number of tags.
I haven't had much time to look at other units, and it is tough to say what one year really means, but I was disappointed to say the least.
It really surprised me. Darn people apparently read the draw statistics this year and many migrated to that 1 out of two unit turning it into a 1 in six unit. Me too! Gotta try man. I did notice that most of the decent calendar date units were used up by people burning their preference to include a few who had over 10 points. Cubing is having an impact already. Good luck in the rest of the draw. I'm a big fat zero so far. Still, I keep donating and help fund this fun.
It really surprised me. Darn people apparently read the draw statistics this year and many migrated to that 1 out of two unit turning it into a 1 in six unit. Me too! Gotta try man. I did notice that most of the decent calendar date units were used up by people burning their preference to include a few who had over 10 points. Cubing is having an impact already. Good luck in the rest of the draw. I'm a big fat zero so far. Still, I keep donating and help fund this fun. Where else can you pay someone to tell you you're a loser nicely.
