Buck harvest factoid.
Wisconsin
Contributors to this thread:
At a meeting today and saw a statistic that only 40% of the antlered harvest were yearlings. I was surprised by that.
There is a definite trend towards selecting older bucks.
Most states share the same percentage. Why is that surprising?
I would have guessed a much higher number of yearlings.
Where do they find these numbers? If I remember correctly the options are. Buck fawn Doe fawn Adult buck Adult Antlerless
So anything with a 3"or better is considered a adult buck upon registration? I would be curious to know age class proportions but I think the dnr really only can give total numbers bucks and does with any bit of reasonable accuracy
Eric Lobner with the DNR had a slide showing all of the numbers (yearling, 2.5, 3.5, etc) by year from the 60's until now. Obviously the numbers are extrapolated from sampling but the trends were pretty clear. The number of yearlings steadily decreasing and all other age classes increasing.
If I'm not mistaken the trend going away from 1.5 year olds is a fairly recent thing in the last decade or so. IMO it is one of the good things to come from the trophy whitetail craze.
But how do they know? The DNR does not have aging stations any more? Correct? Does the hunter determine whether is it a yearling or not when online registering? That numbers seems really low for yearling harvest unless the state has gone "let em go and let em grow" big time.
Musky, At one of the processing places in FDL county the DNR had a guy ageing in 2016. I don't know if its a yearly thing or not. I just happened to drive by and saw a buddies truck there so I stopped in. It would be nice to know how many places this gets done at. I would think any less than 20, the numbers could really be skewed.
I find a lot of people won't admit to shooting a yearling. Heck most say an obvious 2 1/2 is a 4 yr old. Lol. We have seen a shift in quality over quantity in the last 4-5 yrs which is promising for the future.
I wonder how old the data really is since we lost SAK and have no true numbers of the total deer harvested. No true number of deer registered, and so on.... Only 40% of the antlered harvest are yearlings. More interesting would be the percentage of buck fawns registered..... I bet this number is very low.
Since in person registration and mandatory tagging are both gone how can we assume these numbers are correct?????
Just playing devils advocate.
Mike, I would put money on it that more buck fawns skipped registration when it was in person. Most guys would have been embarrassed to show up at local water hole with the puppy they killed. Now they can register it from the privacy of home where people won't point and laugh. Pay another $12 and take another without ever breaking a law. I fully belive it's more accurate now. Only way to get closer to 100% registration would be allowing until day after season to register as many guys stay at camp without cell service. Also playing Devils advocate
To bad they couldn't eliminate the weather conditions question which no one knows how to answer. Ideal for comfort or ideal for deer movement or ideal for keeping other hunters on couch?? Idk how I'm supposed to look at it.
Replace with some type of aging question if we could expect average hunters to correctly age? Idk
Speculation, not a factoid!
Everyone please look up definition of "factoid" and that will shed some light on the data presented.
"I find a lot of people won't admit to shooting a yearling."
This wouldn't surprise me as there seems to be a lot of hunters that omit they hunt with a crossbow or over bait piles.
85% would be more like it....
I think if you had the statistical breakdown gun vs. bow, you would see bowhunters being much more selective for older deer. I know I am, I killed my first buck with bow in 16 years. Prior to 2001, I would occasionally shoot a yearling buck. If others are like me in the aging population and less younger hunters, that trend may continue.
How can they even begin to say those stats??? They are made up numbers IMO.
Inmyelement's Link
My guess is that many are not interested in this, but here us how the DNR obtains the data.
"Collection and analysis methods Aging data of the harvested antlered deer is needed to estimate yearling buck percent. With the move to electronic registration, aging of harvested deer is primarily accomplished by DNR staff in cooperation with deer processors receiving harvested deer from hunters. At the deer processors, deer are aged based on teeth wear and replacement patterns and it is straightforward to age yearlings (1.5 years old) from older adults (>2.5 years old). In addition, aging data are collected from deer submitted for chronic wasting disease (CWD) sampling. Yearling buck percentage is a calculation of the number of yearling bucks (1.5 years old) divided by the total number of adult bucks (>= 1.5 years old). Due to sampling limitations, yearling buck percentages are estimated annually for 9 county groupings."
They go on further to state....
"Limitations and precautions The number of bucks aged is variable across DMUs and it is difficult to get very large sample sizes in some areas."
The Dnr is trying to attract more hunters by using this type of data. It is data that is very hard to believe, in fact unbelievable is how I will describe it. The only way it is close to being believable is if only archery is included.
Yes. They've (DNR) also been down playing the predators and over playing the slight bump in deer numbers in the north. They do paint a much rosier situation in the deer woods than many of the underwhelmed hunters who still venture north and question is it worth it.
SAK was lost because it was all too easy to manipulate numbers.
I am seeing the opposite...I`m seeing guys getting frustrated at not seeing quality bucks and are taking immature deer. There was even a lot of that talk in some of the threads. Hopefully we are not heading back to "the good ol days". 40% sound HIGH to me....almost half of the bucks taken are "yearlings"....that`s NOT good.
CaptMike - And it's not easy to manipulate the numbers now???
I don't think everyone hunts for "quality bucks" either. Some look for quality hunts and could care less about the headgear if that is what the term means.
Pasquinell, that is part of the equation of what determines a quality buck (hunt). According to some, why is bow hunting in Iowa, (as example) better. It can't be argued, a mature buck is what most everybody wants, That's why they apply and pay for IA points. Same with musky fishing, or almost all fish. Limits on size are in place for quality fish. Is this needed for deer, no. However, one can't argue, a mature buck defines quality buck in most cases.
I've always thought that there are VERY few actual meat hunters...just impatient trophy hunters. Just my $.02 Look at the photo-which one hits the dirt first? The mature doe or the other....
Shooting 'The big one' is in the minds of 99% of all hunters while hunting. If bucks did not grow horns, the antis would take over and their would be no hunting seasons. More hunters are realizing that dead deer don't grow.
so true LC, left to our own devices we can justify shooting that spike or worse yet the doe up north since we haven't seen a deer in 3 days. We hunt a very remote area in Bayfield cnty and somewhat know the other camps and what is being shot. A member of our group ran into a guy from an old deer camp and they shot 4 does?? This camp has been going for 50+ years and know how tough its been... The tags were available I guess from the deer numbers in the lake and ag areas but heres these yahoos shooting 4 does in the big woods and b&tch&ng about not seeing bucks. No patience, self control whatever. One doe could be a young / new hunter or an accident but 4?
The hype for the horns these days is PATHETIC. enough said........
RJN - "If bucks did not grow horns,..." I agree with the direction your premise is moving. But I would like to add, if there were no antlers to measure we as hunters would find some other yardstick by which to compare our field conquests. We all know dam well the next guy is gonna want to find a way to justify saying, "Mine's bigger than yours."
Lame crowndip.--I am living proof that deer meathunting still exists. I would kill both those deer(more meat in the freezer)..cut the horns off n throw them away cuz there worthless 2 me. A trophy deer to me is one that feeds the family...not one that I look at on my wall..
I am now 55 years old. When I was a kid i dreamed of shooting the big buck. The Jordan buck was the standard of the dream. Reality was any buck was a trophy, but I still really wanted the big buck, we all did. If we were lucky enough to draw a party tag we hung a large doe, a fork, and an 8 point, everyone talked of the 8 pt. The doe had a bigger body but even then hanging in the front yard it was the horns. people drove up to look. Nothing has changed other than we don't hang them in public or share with anyone due to jealousy. We shoot does and still want the big buck. Biggest bear, turkey, elk, mulie, antelope, musky, walleye, the desire hasn't changed.
Meathunter- care to elaborate on what you consider a true meat hunter? Do you take any deer that moves? Do you target BB as some say they move miles away the next spring anyways? Do you target yearling does since they likely only have one fawn vs older does more likely to have twins and triplets? Would you take a buck at end of rut while he's down substantial body mass and still discard his horns? (I'd personally find throwing antlers like that away to be very disrespectful)
I'm not bashing you for being a meat hunter, I consider myself one as well. I have a paleo diet and take it kinda seriously. Although idon't kill bucks unless they go on a wall i harvest a substantial amount of antlerless venison. I have some strict rules for myself to not deplete sources. I'd be interested in yours if you care to share?
I notice many guys call themselves meat hunters but they kill anything without regards to next seasons bounty. In all reality a meat hunter is maybe more particular than a trophy hunter?
And if you'd really throw away antlers like those pictured please offer them to someone to use, many uses even if you don't like gold stars or trophies : )
Northbound- ok "throwing them away" were the wrong words, I do give them away n they go to good use. Basically saying my intentions on killing the animal is for the meat. The only strict rule that I have is to harvest venison n with minimal land n very few opportunities I better shoot what I see or I'm depleting my sources.
N no I do not hold off on any buck for the wall. Makes 0 sense to me.
Making a doe seem like its just meat makes me laugh. If a large antlered deer happens to walk the trail I set up on and presents a shot I am going to take it IF I feel like it. I have let a few large antlered deer walk past me and I smiled not shooting. If a spike, fork, six or eight walks that same trail and I think things are right I will take the shot if I want to.
When I fish for walleye I fish for filets and would prefer "smaller". I have released more walleye both large and small than I can count. Unless I am forced to a slot sizing in an effort to make people happy with trophies or because of spearing. I am going to really upset some but I could care less about Musky fishing because its a fish based solely on size and not for eating. All do respect Tree farm but I feel that when people say "quality deer" it means large antlers a lot more than the quality of hunt. Just my .02
I shot one deer this yr. It was enough meat for my family and added a new addition on the wall. I get that some guys will take the 1st deer they see for meat. What I don't get is when they go back to shoot more when the deer pop is low in that area. I also get that some will shoot the 1st buck they see. What I don't get is those same guys complain they never shoot or see a big buck. Lol
Thanks Trapper. I had asked that question awhile back and I believe Smokey said aging stations were gone. My memory is fuzzy on that. And now according to IME's link, the DNR is getting aging data from venison processors??
My rule of thumb: Bucks in the north are often older than many think and bucks in farmland are often younger than many think.
I've seen very little change in the north and the norm is brown is down. I do know a few that are selective and strive to harvest a mature buck, but those hunters are few and far between and all bets are off for gun season. I base this on driving by the same stretch of hunting cabins to see what the camps had shot the past 20+ years and little has changed. There were a couple years where the buck poles were virtually empty. But normally you see a lot of young bucks and a handful of 15 inchers, an occasional big one and prior to the population crash, lots of does.
WausauDoug-I run into those types as well up there. There is a poster here on bowsite that stated that his group of four during gun season was four for four bagging mature does in Bayfield Co. Must be the "ag" portion of the county and I guess I'm hunting in the wrong part of the county.
Sorry, but I call shananigans on this “factoid”... I would like to see where this misinformation is being drawn from. Perhaps, they are talking fawn bucks and not yearlings?!
To quote, “There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.”
Tree again all do respect to you but I could care less about hunting in Iowa. As long as I am seeing deer in Wisconsin regardless of whats on top of their heads I personally am happy. In my opinion they should raise non resident licenses, provide better habitat on public land, lesson the amount of seasons, bounty on coyotes and Feds need to give us a wolf season.
Private land owners will do as they see fit for their liking. Heck I hunted private land in Langlade for years where it was forbidden to shoot does regardless if I had a tag or not. isn't that completely against what QDM people do??
Northbound-1 question.... do u have multiple deer u feed n endless amounts of land so u can pick n choose what u kill??? Seems like most guys that r picky about deer/ horns own all the land n also believe they own the deer. N very few r actually meathunters.
Pasquinell, please don't take what I say to heart. I am not referencing you or stating what you are doing. I give hypothetical examples to help show people situations. No lack of due respect.
Tree I respect you and your knowledge. I have learned things from your threads. Happy hunting and good luck to you in the coming year.
Meat hunter- yes I plant for deer, a little obsessed about improving my properties for both wildlife and income some day. However the deer numbers are low at home so I passed all does here this year. Never had a wall worthy buck on stand at home either. Our mich lands have to many does but zero tags. My first Wisconsin buck in the15 years I've hunted was on public ground this year. Took another buck on Michigan public ground. And 7 does on public access grounds this year. I never take more than one animal from a section of land in a year as I plan to hunt these lands for years to come. I scout a lot, we're blessed with many public lands in Wisconsin, I don't waste my time with hunting lands with low deer numbers, I'd rather see those areas have every deer possible to reproduce. Think Fred bear said something along the lines of- hunt where the deer are, not where they should be. Seems to work for me. And I would quit hunting if I didn't see deer nearly every sit.
I don't take fawns personally but I know many 'meat' guys do as they claim the button bucks move miles away the next spring anyways.
I shoot at any yote I see even if it blows my stand for the day. Less yotes to feed/ easier to keep my freezers stocked.
My exception to limiting my harvests are suburban hunting spots which I'll start on next week. Owners want every clean shot possible taken on does.
I'm all for being a meat hunter, obviously.. but the guys that shoot at any deer claiming their meat hunters and then complain that area has no deer is silly. If you wanna hunt for meat, great' hunt where it's plentiful and within expectations for the area and enjoy the dividends for years to come.
Farmers don't want to deplete there soil of nutrients with unsustainable practices, meat hunters should have the same mentality to have future harvests. Just my opinions.
I for one look for a quality hunt more than anything whether it's taking a doe or buck as long as I enjoy the passion of deer hunting. Just being out there being able to hunt is what I enjoy the most, successful or not. I'm not strictly a horn hunter, but I've been lucky enough to take some decent bucks in my life. I would say I'm a 70% meat hunter as my wife has trouble with domesticated red meat. I don't judge anyone on what they shoot as long as they do it legally.
Northbound- u just don't get it do you.... most people do not have the luxury to hunt wherever they feel the deer r. Most got little to no land n see almost no deer. ( but will not quit hunting cuz that's not what it about either). Problem is that Lotta guys literally go out their way to make sure the deer never leave their land(my deer syndrome) but they shoot the first thing they see??? Then they "quit hunting" and focus their attention back to hoarding n keeping the deer to themselves. These days there r no opportunities unless u can get on the land where the deer r not where their suppose to b!?!? I'd have no problem with a little qdma but do not have that choice / if I let um walk they shoot um anyways. NOW THAT'S SILLY... if u can go from herd to herd n pick what u wanna kill good 4 u. Must have nice neighbors that can share n b respectful to other hunters. People r just to dam greedy these days n if u kill one of their deer it's like they just lost a son.( that's why the bucks have names these days right because it's urs. While their at it why not tag um all with name tags like cows n put up a fence.
THE HORNS RUINED HUNTING AS WE NO IT. hunting use to b fun but now u gotta fight others to just try n kill a deer. THANK to the riches for buying all the deer n won't allow others to hunt them. GREEDY HORN HUNTERS R THE REAL PROBLEM. not the average Joe trying to full the freezer (n hunts harder then any of them to do so)
They call it qdma when really it's qbma. Quality buck management. N the management is for very few. If u think they do all the work to keep the deer on their land and say it's for the future of the herd and hunting--- that's the biggest load of *** I've ever heard. It's for them so they can continue to get the horns every year. U don't feed the deer to give um big belly u feed um steroids to make the horns grow ( by the way nobody wants to eat that).
Everybody has good ideas (opinions) and do a relatively good job at civility. I want to start a thread explaining population dynamics and distribution of whitetail deer. In a nutshell, it is manipulated and in part is driven by money.
One aspect people need to understand is that this issue is very complex and isn't going to change anytime soon. Rather than point fingers and curse what others do (if legal), focus energy on what you can influence.
We all know that hunting costs have skyrocketed and many are guilty of buying into it. The actual cost of the finished product can far exceed grocery store prices after all the gear, gas, etc.. Hunters want return on their investment. There are all shades of hunting ability as well as properties to hunt. Likewise, all shades of economic ability. To paint a brush and say rich people have ruined it is a very broad generalization. I for one was very "non-rich". I embraced that fact and realized I really like hunting. I made a point to understand that I was in control of my own domain. I won't lecture on complacency or what others consider as rich, but people need to understand, you are in control of your own domain and to look down on what others have (or don't have) is very counterproductive. All I can say is, if you don't like where you are in life, make a change and don't look at what others have or blame them for what you don't have.
Pasquinell- no offense taken concerning Musky fishing. In fact that smile that you had on your face when you've let a couple nice bucks walk is the smile that most of us Muskie Hunter's have when we return a big fish back to the water. Different strokes for different folks...
I do get a little upset though when an ignorant angler will declare that muskies have cleaned out their lake.
I think many(most) who do quality buck management are really satisfied with seeing and killing decent bucks in their prime, or near prime. Most are not really record book hunters.
Others manage their land for numbers and will still fill their tags with six and mid sized eight pointers, to them that is an improvement over spikes, three pointers and fork horns. QBM has lots of different levels and expected results. The fun is in "improvement", no matter how small..... and whatever it means.
I like to try for an older buck every year, simply because i dont want my season to end right away. But this whole "big buck" thing nowadays completely rubs me the wrong way. I could care less what anyone else shoots if it makes them happy. And if someone tried pushing their deer hunting agenda on me, Id tell them to pound sand. Who is anyone to tell another landowner what to do on their property? If you want your own cattle operation for big deer, than buy enough property to make that happen. Expecting your neighbors to adopt your hunting philosophy is arrogant. If your neighbor gets as much enjoyment out of shooting a small buck as you get out of shooting a big one, why does that make him wrong? Like many I live in an area of very heavy hunting pressure, and there is no "quality deer management" going on in the neighborhood, but there is NEVER a year where their arent a few big bucks around to chase. You wouldnt think anything could make it past a yearling, but they do..... It seems to me a lot of guys want to create the the zoo like conditions they see portrayed on T.V. This whole thing has turned into a big competition. He with the most big bucks wins....
The last two years I have headed to Missouri to hunt on “Managed” land where there are restrictions on what can be taken.
It’s amazing seeing all the different age classes of deer. The county I hunt in had a 4 Point antler restriction done away with due to CWD, plus the farm has a 130” minimum.
It’s fun seeing all the bucks of all shapes and sizes. I truely hope more and more people catch onto the let them go and let them grow attitude.
Drop tine- do you think the APR's helped make more big bucks? In Michigan we get a 3pt and 4 pt per side tag (if we want 2 buck tags) 3" min if only buy one buck tag.
I had a really big fork. Like I've never seen before and would have had it mounted for sure but had to pass it. Wish i had cam pics of him, was just huge. Yet if I would have seen a young basket rack 6pt I could have taken it. Gives me very mixed feelings on the apr idea.
I think it would to an extent. There will always be oddballs that fit outside the mold.
It would make hunters take a good look at what they are seeing and hopefully more selective.
There are down sides also. The deer in the picture easily had 70” of bone in the right side and could have assumed his left matched and dropped him. But after really looking at him he only had about 25” on the left and deformed.
Age has more than anything to do with antler growth IMOP.
Hypotheticaly speaking... If everyone did let them grow as wanted, at what time will it reach boredom seeing them or hunting them? Would that happen? I moved to WI 20 years ago and the bucks hung on walls would be considered ho-hum bucks today. When the Wensel brothers shot "Woodie" years ago, that was a really nice buck. Huge, nice buck. But when I see it today, although still nice it, is something someone may let go one more year maybe?? I don't know where this will go in the future.
Lots of good points on both sides of the fence here. Personally, I am happy just to be able to get out and enjoy the hunt. My success is not measured by harvast, rather by time enjoyed trying. You will never hear me complain about seeing the wrong type of deer.
North- how rare was that fork or is that common for your area? Also taken 9 deer this yr are their that many deer on those public lands, maybe let others take a few?
That one was just crazy big which is rare however we often get big forks that are certainly older than basket rack 6's. Idk what the deal is but very few bucks in that area ever grow brow tines. Genetics, poor food, lack of mineral maybe, idk... I took a 7 point this year up there (only had one 1" brow) and the taxidermist says it was all of 4.5 old. Very different than my home area.
As for my multiple antlerless deer, the lands I've harvested on had no shortage of deer. Plenty remain. I hate sitting and not seeing deer(I don't need to harvest to be happy but need to see deer or I get frustrated) , I write off many areas if they don't look promising while scouting . I made some drastic lifestyle changes in recent years for better health, mainly going paleo. I know how much meat we need to live on. I'll be filing a couple more tags in the metro season to hit that number. I could buy meat for less than I spend on hunting but it's not about that for me. I do wish they would eliminate the possession limits on small game and birds so I could stock more variety but that limiting law remains. I don't plan on dieing anytime to soon so I harvest from many lands planning on harvests for years to come.
Yeah if everyone did it we'd have a problem. Lucky for me most humans eat grains
I like the excitement of seeing a big buck, grown by mother nature, and getting a good one, is hard work and they come few and far between.... nothing wrong with qdma, but the farm bucks, protected and produced, do not do it for me,,,,,,,,,,,
My one friend shot a nice 9, 232lbs in the UP, nov 9th in the snow, now that is the unknown that I like..............
I take does, and the buck of my choice if I get that lucky.... I like to eat venison, if that is a problem for some, take up golf