NautiBuoys's Link
Really if the xbow law was modified. Minors, and folks with injuries - tweak the law so they can go back to vert bow when uninjured could all use em. Fine. Im worried about guys taking 90yd shots and doing drives during bow...
Maybe i should be more open to others ideas of hunting...
The more i think, the more im pissed that "this" seems to be progressing while things that seem valuable to "us" as a whole seem to be left behind.
"Crossbows have been used for years and this commonsense change will allow sportsmen, who have been unable to hunt, due in part to father time, get back outdoors and do what they love," Gobi said in a statement Thursday.
Archery season is suppose to be different than other seasons. If you aren’t capabable of properly shooting archery tackle without a reasonable injury that keeps you from doing so then maybe it’s just not for you. Seems to me that you are lessening the reason behind bowhunting.
This is a bad bad bad idea.
Also, non-archers (gun-only hunters) will start complaining, leading to more division in the ranks of hunters in general. (The assumption that they all have the interest and $$ to buy a crossbow is over-simplified.)
Man, who comes up with all these f'd up ideas? Does anyone actually talk to the people that are active in the sport? Are they going to make us where hunter orange now as well? I guess I will be getting a CT license for archery, even though I will only be able to hunt designated state owned land.
The top 2 paragraphs were copied off the mass live link. The bottom paragraph is where I stand. I’m not in favor of crossbows during archery season at all.
The crossbow is an effective weapon that would increase shot to kill ratio. Thus, less non-recovered deer. It is likely that more "would be" gun hunters would cross over and hunt with the crossbow but maybe they would stick with the crossbow for the whole season . Maybe the early achievement would lessen the orange army experience later on. I have a gut feeling that it would eventually even out .
There is already some gun hunters that walk the woods because bow hunters have an early start and either they are scouting / setting up stands or trying to lessen the bow-hunters chances . This would likely stop that and even the playing field.
I do not understand the need for crossbows due to father time though. Modern high let-off compounds set at 40# are absolutely capable of killing deer every time at hunting distances. Also if you truly are incapable of drawing a bow you can get the permit already. If father time is part of the equation to get this passed then put an age limit, I believe some states have. PA has a separate primitive season. I know it is Flintlock and maybe traditional bows. That is an interesting option. Tekoa
If this is going to pass make it the first two weeks of archery season.
One advantage : during the gun season it would be a bonus to not be making a loud noise in some spots . Quiet is good. Another fun option would be ground hunting in a Ghillie suit .
I don't think it is a matter of need or not. We can already choose from simple bows to quite advanced compounds and releases . So why not another ancient form of bow such as the crossbow.
People hunting and otherwise using the woods cause this deer retreat and after we are in the woods with them for several weeks they are just about ready to call it quits anyway. So , as you note there is not much use in still hunting with a crossbow in most places and those who push deer are not likely to do so for the slim chance of a crossbow shooter posted down the line. ( pushing early season should not be allowed in most places ). In the end I don't think there would be more pressure overall. Maybe even less .
The trouble (it seems to me) is invading their safe places and interrupting their safe travel with new threats. Doesn't really matter what one is carrying . It's just going to happen when stinky loud people invade their space one too many times. How do we avoid or stop that ?
Just look at the Mission Sub-1 !!! Does this take some of the challenge out of the game. It sure does, but better than have someone else take that deer I have been watching for 2 months.
Yup I said it. The me first mentality but that is what is going to happen if it goes full season. Personal business to run, 3 kids, 2 that demand a lot of time because of the amount of travel required for their sports and constant weekend games or dance competitions. You better believe this will be a game changer for me and a lot of other people out there.
Personally, I probably won't/wouldn't shoot more deer either way . Right now I have all season to hunt and seldom shoot anything early season unless it had/has a big rack and those opportunities are seldom , especially early season. One freezer deer is good enough and two is plenty for my household.
I doubt there will be a great mass movement of new hunters and certainly after they have a few long sits and rough seasons it will settle back down. I like the experience with a bow but I also like the efficiency of other equipment such as this and the gun . It is still one shot or bust and still requires that clear shot and good angle.
I would rather see shotgun done away with in many places that are not "big woods hunting "and muzzle-loader be the gun standard. 1shot one kill idea. (More crossbow and less Shotgun ).
I saw some neat debate about this over the weekend on a Facebook group.
I have been feeling like, overall, anything to keep new hunters coming in is a good thing. Our numbers are flailing, and to keep the door open to our kids or the children they may have, more opportunity is ultimately better.
With that said, I'm still having a hard time with this. Admittedly, I tend to be a slow adopter in a lot of areas, so maybe that's it.
I think some is micro-culture. Archery hunting, historically, has been about trying to really drill into the deer you are hunting, really figure them out, and ambush them quietly, on the deers terms. I love that game. You can do that with a gun... but what you dont experience with a gun, is what I'd argue is the essence of archery hunting - and a crossbow ABSOLUTELY does not possess this. With a deer, very close (generally inside 25yards if you all have similar shot experiences to me over your careers) you have to figure out how to MOVE your body and a device which is 30 to 50~ inches long (think recurve or long bow), and DRAW the bow without the deer become aware of your presence. THAT, is a really challenging part of archery hunting that any precocked shoulder aimed weapon simply does not have.
The only people who can not CURRENTLY use an xbow here to hunt, are kids. If you are old and father time has caught you out, you can get a note from your doc and use an Xbow. If you are 31 and blow your shoulder in a pickup hoops game with the buddies or on the job, you can get a note from the doc and a permit to hunt with an Xbow.
the only glitch in the last scenario, is that if you can PT your way well, even over a year or two, with the current law, you cant go back to vert bow. So ADAPT the law, note that should a doc provide notice you have adequately recovered, you can LEGALLY go back to a vert bow.
Add a second note to the law that until 14-16 xbows could be used (pick a year there, my gut would be 16, I could see 15, 14 seems a little young, I noted the range just for thought sake).
Same law as now, basically everyone can use them, with grownups needing a dr's note.
OR, just say Xbow's can be used during SG and ML seasons. Low noise so better in suburban areas, same mechanics for shot execution, probably not getting a follow up with Xbow or ML given the motion needed. That just makes the most sense to me.
Out of my hands, and if this is a done deal, well... I suspect this old dog will have to learn new tricks to find my peaceful pursuit of deer.
First things first, Ohio killed about 7-8 years worth of the all weapons total MA kill with ONLY forms of "archery" tackle. Wholly smokes. Any time a midwesterner ever tells me "hunting hard here" or what not, I'm going to remember that little stat for them :)
That's almost as good as: the odds a season since 2001 will end with Tom Brady playing in a conference championship game being HIGHER than that Blake Bortles will COMPLETE a pass (high pass completion %) on any given throw.
Back on task... So in Ohio, about 60-65% of the "archery" kill comes from crossbows. That's pretty impressive.
Where one then wonders, and I have not looked, yet, is in states where more recent xbow use allowances passed into action, how did those states archery kill totals change and was there an increase in actual hunter participation - not just interconvertion of vert bow users into xbow users?
Type into search : Crossbow Impact on deer hunting . Many articles to review ...
There would be a slightly higher harvest rate / total or success %age but also a significant number of survivors that carry on to build the population. I see greater efficiency as a net gain for deer numbers.
Did I read that correctly Pi?
I had left the forums for a while after the season,.. and come back and my eyes pop outta my head at what I am reading,..
People never cease to amaze me at what they can believe,..
Murphy - yes, CT has pretty liberal limits. I am pretty sure the unlimited tags require "earn a tag" in SW CT where they are still working to get numbers below 30-60dpsm (if memory serves - not saying those are real current numbers... ) JRDeerslayer hunts a ton in SW ct and takes part in that program, J if you read this have you noticed any changes in CT deer hunting with xbow changes? I feel like the written permission thing down there limits any management strategies effectiveness.
In terms of the "more accurate less wounding" theory...
Maybe, it's an interesting theory. The only way to test it, is to look at states that put xbow's into standard vert bow seasons within the past 15-20 years so we have reasonably close deer numbers, hunter numbers and equipment efficiency.
The argument though assumes something - ethical shot decisions. In other words. Maybe those 3 deer killed 1 found with the vert bow were actually 3 deer shot quartering too because the hunter didnt wait for a good shot angle - nor learned/cared. What if the xbow guy decides on the range he can shoot that thing 90yds pretty well and "it's so powerful" so he decides to take frontal shots. It "feels like a gun" and is "super fast" so he takes running shots. Maybe the wounding reality is the OPPOSITE. Maybe for every 1 the Vert bow guy wounds, the Xbow guy will wound 3-4.
The odds are just as likely to go that way.
Based on experience, I'd suggest they may be higher. But that's nothing more than my gut instinct, conjecture, and theory.
I have recently looked at the Conn Deer Program summery 2016 and unless there is some typo it said that 1% of the harvest is crossbow since 2013 when introduced . About 100 deer per year. But the total kills are going up in other categories as well. Thus , there has been a decline of 8% in crossbow kills over 3 years so far.
I know a few older hunters that should limit themselves to gun hunting because they are successful at it. They averaged roughly 4 un-recovered deer each year (combined) with bow and 1 with gun. Now that they have a crossbow permit the lost deer number has fallen to almost zero.
Over 25 years , even if the lost average is 2 that's 50 deer and all of the offspring that they would have produced. Do the math friend .
I don't take many shots and I have only lost one deer in the last decade or more but I believe it survived. If other hunters were as careful/selective/proficient as this it would be a mute point but you know full well that many deer are not recovered . Crossbow introduction is most likely a net gain in deer survival and thus further reproduction by shot to kill ratio being more effective .
It never ceases to amaze me how myopic and limited some peoples thought process is ...
With crossbows being legal for all, a lot of people who gun hunt will pick it up. Their used to sending slugs through brush and still hitting the deer, might take them a while to figure out it doesn't work like that with a arrow or bolt.
I see more low percentage shots being taken by beginners just because they can see the deer in the scope thinking they can make that shot.
When deer are in the fields feeding 80 yards out, it goes from a compound shooter just watching and hoping they come closer, the crossbow Hunter might try the shot.
I see more shots being taken, more deer being injured and possibly more deer being harvested.
This isn't a good thing for Mass or the deer herd.
You cant fix the stupid and unethical people but with the decent folks we can provide a more effective weapon for them. I think most are decent folks .
a ravin r20 that is a package that includes arrows and scope etc,..
3 inch groups at 100 yards,.. man that is like my BP gun for goodness sakes,..
Sure would be nice to get one of those,.. outta my price range though.
Any source that shows a significant lowering of deer population ? any source such as Mass Wildlife or any State Wildlife agency stating that they desire extremely low numbers of deer ( not the healthy goal number) ? Any reason to believe that those who make their lively-hood from the Hunting folks would want to cut themselves out of a job ?
It is argued from the anti side that just the opposite is true. More deer and more hunters is the goal... I don't give much credence to that either.
The goal is to have a healthy balance that the land can support and healthy hunter numbers to support the same. Or so they say. Revenue returns from the sale of new weapons ( and anything hunting related) and greater hunter numbers is power by financial flow . That in turn supports our pursuit and it is counter intuitive to suggest that there is a conspiracy to screw up the very process that supports the continuation at a healthy level.
Where do those ideas come from ? What state has suffered such problems ? Note a good article please... Anyone ? Hello ?
Not sure how that pans out for the more crowded bunch east,.. ?
And as they said,.. this is likely over time, to be a nationwide thing,..
Curious how the vote goes,..
Crossbow wounding rate is THE SAME as that of compound bow hunters - at least in this study. Sadly that is to say that 18% wound rate with "archery" (vert and crossbow) is what this study found. I believe this one is the study of the two I am posting which noted the LOWEST wounding rate comes from hunters with more than 20years of experience.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/DTR/DTRREGS/TabG.pdf Impact of crossbows being added to MI's open archery season in 2009. Based on this, there was a 13% increase in hunter numbers during the first legal archery season. Total archers using xbows during the first season (09) was about 19%, while by 2011 it went up to 37% of those hunting archery season, using a xbow.
About 25% of the xbow users by 2011 in MI had NOT been vert bow users during the years previous to the addition of cross bows - so they came either as new hunters choosing to use the xbow or gun hunters shifting to "archery".
The number of hunters using crossbows more than doubled during that time frame and the deer harvest numbers of those hunters did the same. While gun season hunter numbers and deer kill numbers decreased over this time frame, but "archery" hunting kill totals INCREASED 24% over the same time frame. So while GUN hunting was fading, guys were killing deer at a faster rate during archery via the increased hunter numbers associated with the addition of crossbow hunters.
AGAIN: While GUN hunting was fading, guys were killing deer at a faster rate during archery via the increased hunter numbers associated with the addition of crossbow hunters.
All I had time at lunch to look over via Google scholar.
The other clear intent is to INCREASE hunter participation to also INCREASE deer kill rate.
Belchertown Bowman's Link
This is what happened in Virginia when they did same thing,..
https://www.buckmasters.com/Magazines/Buckmasters/Articles/ID/3074/The-Crossbow-Effect
I will see what else I can dig up
Belchertown Bowman's Link
Again it does not show increase in deer harvested but does show more hunters and younger ones,..
Note the link below is michigan,.. the bullet link above is another article,.. had a typo moment
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/FinalReport_crossbowSurvey_2013_01_25_410832_7.pdf
Belchertown Bowman's Link
Thoughts of mine not directed at anyone in particular : I get it that some bow-hunters are buggered by the unknown and even for good reason as intrusion is a problem/concern . But the deer and method of hunting in the woods are not ours to decide upon. The resources are the joint and shared property of the Commonwealth and the folks that are populating the same. Their ( the crossbow folks) equal and fair chance at harvest is as valid as anyone's. Perhaps the gun guys in some places are getting tired of us bow hunters having the run of the woods and first crack at good hunting. Maybe its time to make room for other players on the field and to even the playing field for those of other desires.
Keep hunting and enjoy it your own way. But lets not get snobby in our hobby.
What was he shooting with back then ? Not today's zingers , that's for sure.
Why was this study done ?
What if it was reduced just a bit more to 20 compound and 1 crossbow 18 % would be fair for the first group (maybe) but if the crossbow person missed or didn't recover one of his two deer then the average goes to 50% for him. Or if he recovered his two deer then it goes to 0% both are misleading and tell us nothing of any comparable value.
You see that problem right ?
About 70 % were already bow hunting and a large portion of the rest is displaced gun hunters. Call it 20-25 % with some new folks making up the difference I would presume. So ,most are hunters already .
Success rate is greatest with our Archer crowd , to be expected .
If "quality and conditions" are "improved" and success rate is almost 30% greater this supports the "theory" that the x-bow is a more efficient tool and thus less likely to amount to lost animals. Unless Muzzy is correct and all of a sudden these hunters have tossed out their ethics and learning because they are all overcome with the mass hysteria and giddiness that comes with the implied x-bow illusion . I doubt that is a factor of any great concern. We don't lose our values that easily.
Therefore, less loss to the same hunters because it is more efficient and user friendly. Statistics seem to show this ,at least indirectly. ( deer are most likely not catching movement or hearing noise as often when x-bow is used ,to put them on alert etc. ) . Also the influx of Gun hunters would not make a greater loss from bad shots because the x-bow is similar to the gun experience. I doubt most gun hunters are so ignorant as to try to force the shots ... They are not unethical , without knowledge, immoral or stupid. Well ,most anyway.
I'll double down on my impression and conclusion . Less deer not recovered. Same harvest overall and increasing deer numbers ? Must be less loss to the wolves.
This study's (http://www.jstor.org/stable/3781397?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) abstract notes that archery wounding rate is 1.5x that of gun hunting. That would suggest, that if a xbow is more like a gun, there should be a LOWER wounding rate with the xbow given guns appear to wound fewer deer than archers.
Lastly, this paper (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2193/2007-058?journalCode=wild) suggests that archers are ok with crossbow's given they have a separate season, and that homeowners in suburban settings are ok with crossbows and prefer archery (vert and xbows) over firearms.
End point is that with quick lit review, it would suggest that when xbows are introduced you gain about 25%-30% in your archery season, most of that addition comes from gun hunting comrades taking up "archery" hunting via the xbow. And while we have not seen any data the clarifies xbow wounding rate differences from firearm's we have a tiny sample that says xbows may wound at about the same rate as vert bows, both of which then would be about 1.5x MORE than firearms hunters.
If xbows are closer to guns in terms of accuracy, which most here seem to agree, it would suggest that low sample size study we saw above was a wash, and we could say that xbow's may be closer to guns in wounding rate.
The dicey part to me, is that I still can't see how it's the "same" as vert bow hunting. It feels far more like a firearm. It's accuracy would suggest that. Thus implementing them during firearms seasons seems an ideal approach.
Broad examples, but if you take 25% more hunters and add them to archery season in western MA where the herd size is low and reduction is not a goal - even the state admits to wanting to maintain or INCREASE the herd in those areas - how does increasing hunter participation by 25% make sense, but adding Sunday hunting (which would total LESS than an additional 25% increase in hunter man hours) does not make sense? Sunday hunting comes up and some times you hear that we should shorten the season by that number of days - but not here, despite a massive increase in potential take.
I'm fine with Xbows. I wish the addition of them was for juniors, older folks or folks with med conditions (which could be reversed should health allow it) makes sense. Heck, apply those "rules" for archery season and allow xbows through out the full ML and SG seasons which may more comfortably allow hunting in suburban areas during those seasons.
Dramatically increasing hunter opportunity with a weapon of greater performance seems a way to significantly increase deer kill rate which, at least out here, is NOT something I'd like to see. Can't speak to Z10/11.
That's not where I was when this started... but this discussion has me thinking a little differently.
That said, I totally am buying one of those Ravin Xbows and I'm getting a solar powered crank for it :) (he he he :))
I was referring to new hunters, gun hunters with no archery experience thinking that they can make the shot when an experienced archer would know better.
The permit requirements need to be changed, temporary permit for someone who is not capable because of injury or surgery with the ability to get back to normal and permanent permit for anyone who wouldn't have that chance to pull a bow again.
The problem with most study's is the state's doing them harvest more deer than this state even has. I believe Mass is so different when it comes to deer and deer hunting that thinking what works for a state that kills 150,000 deer plus a year is going to work here.
Like Will said, west of 495 the state admits it would like to see an increase in deer numbers. How is getting more hunters in the woods with a more efficient weapon going to help the deer population? Less wounding means less food for yotes, they'll adapt and still survive, they're like cockroaches and will be here after a nuclear bomb wipes out everything else.
The great country singer Jason Aldean hunts with a crossbow. So, done. We all should hunt with a crossbow.
Yes, it's sarcasm. I was watching Buck Commander on TV and saw Aldean get a big buck with his crossbow.
I just saw, to each his own. You want to use a bow, go for it. You want a crossbow, go for it. You want to hunt with a spear, go for it. In the end, you still have to find the deer. That's the same no matter what.
There is not an increase in total kills. So deer numbers do not suffer for that first reason. There is not a great increase in hunter numbers / total. There is the same gun folks that would be in the woods later ,now hunting with a x-bow earlier. There is almost the exact opposite proportional shift from gun to x-bow kills ( Less gun kills and more string weapon kills. It equals out ). There is not many new hunters in Total for the whole season but yes , they are more bunched up in the archery season. Which is long enough but could be made longer. If numbers of deer fall then regulate those areas as we already do with tags. But ,numbers don't seem to be falling , even with this new weapon because total doe kills are not higher then before ,when the x-bow was not made available. Same amount of breeders make it through and produce new furry targets.
In western parts you probably won't notice a 25 % addition to the woods during bow season except for Saturday parking perhaps. In the East it may be a little bit of a bother but we Bow hunters already know the Gun people and it gets worked out. Or it's doll heads and stinky meat all over again... ( memory lane...)
I was being a little silly with the gun folks scenario to make a point but the reality is the same . Not a great influx of new inexperienced hunters rushing into the woods to maim deer. The statistics show that. Just a shift in chosen season and weapon use. Gun hunters practice with their weapon and will do so with x-bow . They will know the best use of the same. These are hunters not morons.
My earlier comment on hunter X and Y is from real experience. The 2 fellas for instance ,are not wounding deer like they did and are having a more "satisfying experience" because of it, which "meets their expectations " of Crossbow use. Hence the extrapolated correlation of hunter comments in BB's post/link , being of this same nature. Think about it . The normal person is bothered by bad shots and lost animals. The data points to the opposite , which is good shots and not losing animals. "Quality of the hunting experience" being the key , success being the reason.
Will , the first study is a dud, forget that one. Bad data gets bad conclusions. The extrapolation I am making is from other states that are found in BB's post / link. It is not clearly defined as such so I am extrapolating from the hunter questioner within that study ,as noted above. "Quality of experience " ,"meeting expectations and success rate", all lead me to believe the x-bow use is more successful in shot to kill ratio . If they are losing as many animals as our vertical form then it would not be "more satisfying nor meet the expectation" of the x-bow sales points.
I rest my case.
I like all that you said except one thing. Getting more hunters involved, be it new or others. I for one don't want to see new hunters. Yes it's a personal reason and here it is.....
So far this year I have had 3 trail cameras stolen. 1 stand stolen and a stand messed with. Have only lost one trail camera in 15 or so year prior. After the first trail camera was stolen I did something smart. I would double up the cameras in an area. 1 would be on the area to be scouted the other would be watching the trail camera. Low and behold I went to check a camera that has been in the woods since nov 10. It was missing !!!! Well guess what the one placed 15 ft up a tree overlooking the other camera was still there. I got a few pictures of the thief a few days apart and the last pic of him was him removing my camera and stealing it. He looks to be a mid twenties male. I will not post a pic of him, but will be contacting the appropriate authorities. Soooo do I really want new hunters in the same woods that I hunt, absolutely not!! Do they have every right to be there yes they do.
I guess just call me selfish because I want to keep the things i buy from being stolen by scumbags with no ethics or a care in the world about anyone but themselves. Are all hunters like him? No, but the less people in the woods the better as far as I am concerned. There are a certain percentage of losers in this world. The more new people who stay out of the woods the smaller the percentage of new losers
Rant over !!!!!
I understand your frustration but a small addition to hunter numbers is not the problem . Also ,not supported by data. Some are hunting longer in terms of years and many will purchase the additional stamp but the total hunter participation doesn't seem to increase much. The problem is not the amount of people , It is crappy values from a spiritually deprived society. The youth offspring of a lost generation... You have the picture !
Now , lets find that puke and give him some OT lessons. (kidding)
This is a battle for territory and your competition is not willing to play nice. Now that you have him on film you have the upper hand . Don't lose that. Let cooler heads prevail and work on your strategy to hunt that spot.
Remember he is just a silly inexperienced misguided kid. This is not life or death , just an opportunity to learn and teach. We wouldn't want to deprive him of this lesson ... would we ?