Bowsite.com

Of course if you are pro-crossbow, don't bother attending as we all know nothing comes from these hearings.

I will be there, I never miss them,,,,, my suggestion to them last year, was to have a microphone for the board member when he or she speaks, to speak up clearly and know how to deliver a sentence,,,,,,,

I also do not believe, that a lot of local issues, should be voted on state wide,,,,, For example, our wild life manager wanted a refuge opened up for hunting, for the whole fall, and for archers and gun hunters,,,,, but it went state wide, and it was rejected,,, what hunter who vote against that????????????

there are some issues that should be voted on by the locals only, heck they are the ones who knows what is going on............................

The NRB is not going to do squat on the cross bow, just look who is on that board,,,,, they will reject any attempt to dismantle that weapons use,,,,,,,,

But I will still go, and vote for a short and separate season for the cross bow, and to get rid of scopes for the ML season, which usually leads to the reaction, of those attending, that they were gut shot

Archers: But more deer are being killed!!!!

Everyone else: Wasn't that the point?

I Have seen more pressure in last couple years during rut season but idk if it's added xbow guys or all the phone apps that make it easier to find public lands/mfl/fcl. I see all the trucks with ten point window stickers driving around but never parked where I hunt, maybe I'm just lucky. I have had a big jump in guys small game hunting on my trail cams this year, that's why I'm thinking the public access land apps are creating more pressure than anything.

My personal experience is that I'm more affected by the added orange seasons than the xbow season. I'd much rather have just 9 days of rifle 7 days ML. And the remaining in bow. If they need more harvests keep bow and xbow if necessary until end of January like the metro units.

I'm doubting the xbow thing changes. If anything maybe they would shorten it by eliminating the late season xbow like upper Michigan dose, realistically that won't do much as not many guys hunt late season anyways.

I would like to see a ML season, about 2 weeks after the general gun season, and no scopes, except for 65 and over, or a medical reason......

Need another? They relaxed baiting bans when the DNR, every conservation group, biologists, and hunters all opposed it.

Working with the WCC, is like working with a snail and a turtle, trying to see, which one is faster,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I will be at the 2018 hearing, as I go every year,,,,The WCC does not want to hear any opinions by the way, they just want to always have their way...............................

Ron thanks for fighting the fight................

Or as the Captain said "Of course if you are pro-crossbow, don't bother attending as we all know nothing comes from these hearings. "

I started my own E-Mail campaign from the Gov 's office down .

In the past there have been issues with two questions pertaining to the same issue having two different results at the spring hearings. This creates a problem because it gives conflicting consensus on the same issue.

I did commit to my personal position that crossbows should not be used by the general public, but as I said that has no bearing on the discussion. I don't know why you are always twisting things to seem like they are nefarious.

A lot of tail chasing going on here. When the questions get printed or a bill gets drafted then we will be able to investigate and give our opinions.

Currently there are 2 separate but concurrent seasons and any one can use either a bow, crossbow or buy the $3 permit that allows them to use both.

Is there something I am missing???

The Congress worked with the Department to get a question on the spring hearing but they unexpectedly decided not to include it. In turn the Congress was going to put the crossbow issue on their portion of the questionnaire. Kaz knew that but added his own question. As I have said before having two different questions on the same issue has typically created problems. Several times essentially the same question was supported and rejected on the same questionnaire. If you ask the same question two different ways and get two different results it's pretty difficult to reach a conclusion.

The Congress is likely going to withdraw their question because of this. I am assuming that Kaz's is available on the NRB minutes but haven't looked yet.

There have been resolutions in the past presented across the state by numerous entities with the same information and they have been shot down every time they have made it to the committee. What makes you think that the powers that be, which are subsidized by the crossbow hunters and manufactures will allow any change to the crossbow season to make it out of committee, much less change the season? You have an outfitter that sits on the NRB that lines his pockets with $$ from crossbow hunters and a politician that owns a store that sells them... The fox guarding the hen house. Are there any politicians that are on our side? At this time I don't see any. All I see are those happy with the status quo and with the influx of money into their coffers.

CaptMike- I agree with your stance on this issue, but are we beating a dead horse and fighting a fight we can not win at this time???? We could have 1,000,000 hunters agree on this, but will the manufactures and the NRA still be against us like in the past?

Drag the play to the 5hour 45minute mark.

I think a balance and realistic compromise (I know we hate that) is to allow the xguns in units where the goal is to reduce the herd but disallow (other than for disabled) in units where they want to maintain or grow current numbers. After all...its all about management right?

Also....I think this speaks volumes to Kaz as a person with integrity. The home page of his website calls them the premier midwest xbow outfitter and has another blurb about price match. He isn't allowing his business interest interfere with his sportsmen interest.

One question remains in my mind - Will outside entities come back and spend thousands of dollars to influence our deer seasons??

Tweed- In counties where the population is over goal crossbows do not make a difference. The harvest numbers already show that. They have been in the hands of hunters for a number of years now and the quality of the hunt has declined do to hunter pressure and the antlerless harvest has not climbed to numbers needed to reduce the herd. If you want to reduce the herd size it still comes down to land access in a lot of the areas. Private land access is and will always be the issue.

This again raises the issue of the tools needed to manage the herd properly, EAB and other tools need to be given back to the DNR. That's a whole other thread....

Pasq - If it comes down to Wisconsin turning into a 1 buck stat I believe that many will support the change. Or we will see a major drop in gun license sales and a minor growth in crossbow sales and the number of deer poached will continue to rise dramatically. Very few hunters will want to choose between harvesting a busk with a gun, bow or crossbow. They should also do away with the automatic crossbow permit for CP license buyers.

Now that's just my 2 cents worth

What they need in doe problem areas is EAB,,, pretty simple huh,,,, it worked just fine

Skook, thanks for the answer............................... Wait till the airbow gets here,,,,,,

Again, no reason for a 1 buck rule, unless for biological reasons, not political science

Tweed, I do not think that either archery or the crossbow users are a very viable method of herd control. The archers have a rather static success rate for quite a long time, and the crossbow users have demonstrated they are in it for a buck, which is not the main target when addressing herd reduction. In my opinion, as it relates to archery, it is not all about management but rather it is about opportunity.

It's possible he is doing this out of integrity. It's also possible that it's a very calculated move because he knows there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that anything gets changed.

Does any one think that even if we have a 100 to 1 ratio that the crossbow season will change for those younger than 65??

I have been attending these meetings for many many years and I know what it takes to get the laws changed and 1 or 2 people have the ability to stop any change they don't like.

Were going to meet at the WBH convention & I will E-mail them info as I get " stuff " .

I still like EAB................................

Are we to believe the trolls or public record on what we read and hear from those sites, or what a banned member and his minion (Sorry Steve) has passed on?? Ron sent the first email to me too, but I refuse to pass others stuff on without knowing the truth behind it.

Until we read the proposal we know nothing of what the question will be, or if there will be one presented at all.

Smoke and mirrors.....

Just saying

When the public votes for or against something the WCC should support that vote,,,, if you don't vote, well too bad, you don't get a say,,,,,,, I mean this should not be that hard......

There responses was a little sad,,,, They said that cat is out of the bag, no way will it change, but many thought it should..... They were more concerned with CWD and baiting issues.............. They had no faith in the WCC, as they do not attend meetings anymore, based on the fact, that they get no results,,,, like one guy said, "how many times did we vote on this and baiting and tell them what we want, and it goes no where"

All of them, know that the NRB and our legislators, are going to do what they want anyway, that the sportsmen do not have a voice, but need to be a politician to get what you want in,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

All of them are disgusted, with the down grading of the DNR, and real science, and lack of funding for CWD, the use of bait, statewide, and what they really hate is the complex deer regulations, and the micro management of each county, and more cdac members who spend little time in the field, and there results are obvious,,,,,,,,,,,,

So this is a short sample, from guys who do not or never have been on this site, but I can assure you, are all hard core hunters,,,,,,,, Both the WCC and the NRB has its work cut out for them, if they want to gain the respect from these guys, and they are not alone

You see where this is going? A few years back Ruger 10-22 said this was coming and it would be the norm,,,, at that time, I did not believe it thinking that most cross bows would be 30 yard weapons, like my temporary one,,,,, Well I was wrong, heck if I wanted to, with my experience, I could redo the scope in this Parker, and get 80 yards out of it I am sure...........................

You watch, the "air bow " is next, and it will be some politician with someone crying to use it, that he needs to pay back, that will get on this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Captain Mike - Respect is a show of support,,,,,, I know they are going to the spring hearing only for the reason to vote on this,,,,,,, also all of us should get the word out, and get people to come to simply, vote on this.......................

Captain Mike - Do you have any idea, on when the vote will be taken up, any ideas on how the agends will work, I mean when the NRB resolution will be taken up?

If the DNR wants to do any of these or similar suggestions, or those above they can easily do it. Apparently they are not doing it because they simply do not want to or pressure from legislators or special interests that are making big money off all the $2000 Mission and Rage bows plus accessories that are made in and are being sold in Wisconsin.

Retro - Ruger 10-22 is one of the finest hunters in the state,,,, he is a combat hero, and cares a heck of a lot, about the future of deer hunting, not for himself, but for his grandkids and others,,,,,, if he says something, you can pretty much take it to the bank

I hear this all the time, on the job, "Why does the DNR set these fines so high"... I tell them the DNR just is doing what the politicans set,,,,, if you have a complaint call your legislator

Not that it would matter if there was. Biologists don't get to make decisions in WI, just politicians and special interest.

I don't see the 2017 Metrics on dnr.wi.gov yet (1/29/18 last I looked) but this 'which kind of bow' needs a season restriction discussion should include a serious analysis when those metrics come out.

If it is merely that peeps who used to be VB, or 'would have been VB' are now HB, then so what? How does one justify denying others for the benefit of themself? There is no extra buck tag for HB. Just like for Wheel Bow over Stick Bow. Bows in general get the bonus buck opportunity. You wanna screw that up? I see that around here bow hunters have historically taken out many of the big guys before gun season.

If the overall deer harvest is not skewed off of management goals, so what? For example, most of the HB harvest could very well be merely a direct replacement for what those individual hunters would otherwise harvest with any other weapon.

The argument against other weapon types seems to be based in an assumption VBs have some sort of mystical magical moral superiority or some such. The other weapons types could just as well make the same baseless argument favoring their weapon(s) of choice. Why was it OK to go to wheels but not beyond? Who beside the individual hunter considering his own desires should draw that line?

If you want to argue that weapon effectiveness should be the deciding factor season allotments then it would be intellectually disingenuous/dishonest to not demand this season order: SB, VB , HB, primitive muzz, modern muzz, all firearms. Now, given the established 'traditions' of the 9 day firearm season dates and more recently lessor included weapons: this puts everything but all firearms in the rut (unless we move the firearm season). How does that square with the idea of curtailing HB? If fairness is the idea, do it correctly and completely, picking and choosing favorites is not allowed.

Suppose some seasonal restrictions were in place on HB. That wouldn't disallow the permitted disabled, over 65, nor lessor weapons situation and the like. We would need to see the numbers analyzed in that light before an intelligent informed argument could be undertaken and a credible position be developed.

How many HB harvests fall under lessor, disabled, or age 65? That would not change with an HB season restriction. If recruiting young hunters is an issue, then it can not be avoided that the corollary exists that a greater percentage of hunters will be 65 eligible as time marches on.

I know that anecdotal stories are not statistically significant, but let me relay something that is very significant to the specific population I hunt. A retired guy (>65) hunts 200 yards away across the road by granted access from the farmer landowner. I also have permission there but only muzzleloader and only if I still want more meat and don't want to diminish the numbers out back of the house. About every 3 or 4 years I take a doe off there. Always an old gray mare. ( Big old deer, with no fawn of hers present, no producing milk bag is found)

For 2017 he took at least 3 deer in the early archery season that I know of for sure, all by HB. I have not heard what else he might have done for the rest of the year or where ever else he hunts. I know he gun hunts and muzz. A group from out of town hunts there 9 day gun. HB season limitations would not have prevented any of his HB harvests.

It seems there is an expressed fear/claim that HB is hurting the populations, but that has yet to be shown in the Wisconsin data I have seen. If I missed it please do show me. That idea is conflated with the dislike that someone else harvests the deer you wanted with some other legal weapon of their choice which you yourself are eligible to use if you so choose. You want to limit others to have that which you desire. No one is being slighted in this. Everyone is on equal footing. Everyone has the right to chose their hunting weapons, harvest choices and style (within the law), but not to enforce that on others.

We need to see data differentiated by how many harvested deer would have been affected by a season limitation ( I don't think I have even seen proposed dates yet so that we have something on the table to actually consider) on the unpermitted group ONLY. Then we also need to see the harvest DATE data for that group to consider potential impact of particular season date implications. Can someone lay out those numbers for us? Until then this is merely perception. That which does not exist does not need to be defended from, right? The argument of make believe shouldn't prevail with unbiased informed intelligent jurors.

There is no point in undertaking uninformed arguments, nor in pursuing/promoting concepts not supported by facts and data.

Certainly DNR knows the ages, who formerly pulled disabled, and who harvested in times where lessor qualifies. Not sure to what extent they can disclose that data or how it needs to be masked. Even then, it is only a minimum estimate because disabled numbers accumulate and would have gone unreported in the 3 years of “HB for all”. The harvest numbers are reported by weapon, but are they broken down by date/season in the metrics? Do the metrics report a HB harvest in gun season as such? Anybody Know where I can find the data distinguished by tag used on lessor weapon type? 2017 I filled my gun tag with a bow, (and reported it as such) how is that going to be represented in the metrics we see? I have shot deer with a .357 mag revolver over the years, but that chalks up as a rifle kill. (or generalized firearm)

The real problems as I see it are Population management (in all its forms, age sex structure included), Access to the deer in some/many situations, CWD, and, Anthropogenic impacts as those evolve. There is a movement out there to reduce the herd. There in lies your ACTUAL enemy.

Curtailing any particular weapon type will not solve those problems. We need to tune up management. Hunters need to herd together HAVING EACH OTHER'S BACKS facing the common enemy, not infight. Have you been played with a divide and conquer? Think.

Some ideas:

1) In areas with poor herd populations put a variable cap date on harvest, like with sturgeon. When the quota/goal is met for any area (not huge units as drawn mostly on county lines ( I see they are changing already/again/still) – but perhaps individual public parcels. ( see below *) Certainly the smaller the areas the better the management for that area and the state in general. It could incorporate antler restrictions either all season or after some trigger – area specific. Lack of deer 'over pop'problems are largely in areas of heavy public access. I see no way to make any significant difference on private land without diminishing land ownership rights. However, there is no reason caps can't be triggered as appropriate for private lands too, you just can't force harvest (so far).

2) In over goal areas there are still public land populations hurting, and even lack of public land. Certainly access to the deer is THE factor. I am not aware of any area with 'too many' deer that people don't hunt if given access. (forget the CWD issue for now).

Look at the metrics and notice how many doe tags were private v public. And the correlated harvests.

I think everyone would agree that we wouldn't be having this conversation if there were so many deer that you were at risk of being skewered in the hinder every time you went downtown because so many big old bucks were there eating the tires off cars. Or you went out your front door and they were eating the vinyl siding off your house. Would anybody be concerned about who used what weapon when? I see we all agree.

This is actually about resource availability/allocation. If AND ONLY IF analysis of the numbers indicate HB is causing over harvest (on public lands only?), then that is where AND ONLY WHERE any potential corrective season limitation should apply. But it would have to be a data supported NEEDED correction. I can't imagine a scenario where it would ever be appropriate on private. They (for the most part) make their own bed and sleep in it. Public land has fallen to the tragedy of the commons and users sleep in beds made by others. This often means that everyone regardless of their style ends up always hunting only last years fawns forevermore.

Real time quota caps and closures would cover this as well. It might mean a whole lot less gun harvest in some public places, but isn't that preferred to limiting any type of bow? Or, perhaps it might mean a cap on early bow if it is allocated by weapon tags purchased so as not to disenfranchise all gun hunters, don't they count? Fair? Should gun hunters be relegated to only doe cleanup crew after bows have their way with the bucks? Same thing for HB? Should each group get a proportional opportunity on bucks? Why not?

*Note. It is conceivable that the entire state could be managed in this manner. You buy a license and have a statewide buck tag just like now. Everybody (is given) can also purchase (cheap or free) as many (or up to some limiting factor) doe tags as desired for statewide application where allowed. Areas close individually as harvest dictates throughout the season for either or perhaps eventually both sexes. You can go hunt any open area you have access to. (this idea is not about weapons or weapon seasons, we still need that) This puts the hunters on the hot spots where deer populations may actually need to be reduced. The only issue left is access.

The dnr web site would show a color coded map and tabulations by county subdivided by smaller areas of open v closed areas for which or both sex. It would also link a table of quota and real time harvest to date so you can plan ahead. Hunters can opt to receive notifications of closure or near closures via text in emails for any areas they desire. This would simplify tags, inform hunters, and, increase opportunity for all.

This requires know hunters where they are hunting – but they should anyway ( if you can't figure out where you are I don't think you should be holding any weapon) . The technology exists. An app could be created so you can report/register from your phone at the point of kill and click the button for read my GPS for location of harvest.

Carry on.

[/ end rant]

In this case they seem to be doing all they can to fight a change that is needed. Without their support a legislative change just will not happen.

This law was written to support change, heck maybe even in a way that allows the DNR to change the season and bag limits on their own. Don't they already set the start and end date and bag limits for every species and weapon used. After all, that is all that is needed, a change to the start and end date for crossbow use and maybe the harvest limit.

Just thinking outside of the box here...

When deer management was taken away from the DNR for the most part and given to legislators. As far as special interest crossbows and blaze pink are perfect examples.

Correct me if I am wrong but legislators have been able to legislate laws forever as that is their job. Every agency and entity needs some sort of supervision and oversight. For the DNR that would be the DNR Board and the politicians. For the politicians, that would be the voters. During the crossbow issue, the DNR chose to not take any stand, they only appeared or commented for information only, none of which was negative toward crossbow use. I really don't think a biologist has any more or less insight than anyone else on what color of camo is more or less visible.

"This law was written to support change, heck maybe even in a way that allows the DNR to change the season and bag limits on their own." Jeff, you are correct. The issue is that the DNR has shown no interest in addressing the issue. That is why we need to reach out to those who supervise them.

I'd appreciate seeing your source of the data about that. Ever see that poacher Ted Nugent's vid where he takes an 85 yard shot? And don't get me started about the gun hunters who haven't a clue what bullet drop is not to mention the trajectory of what they shoot. Then we have distance estimates. Ever wonder why you hear so many 3 shots or clip unloads?

Besides, what you key in on (as important as it may be to get all hunters to shape up) was not my point. then consider that for the most part - at least for successful hunters - we hunt until we get our fill. Shortening the season might not limit the number of risks fools take or their harvest. Did anyone ever propose some sort of date structure? It really has to be before gun to be anything at all, and there in lies the rut.

My appolgies that it was cumbersome. Looking back at how big it is I can understand that if you don't have time to type the four words it might have been downright depressing to be faced with all that. No hard feelings. Maybe tonight when you can relax with a beverage and you can help get down to the nitty gritty on this issue. OK with me if you don't.

I do like all the feedback available, agree with this part and not so much that .

Note: dates aside, the testimony for SB602 is identical.

When hunters march to Madison with a very weak case, which this is, it sets up hunters for future failures. The reality is there is not enough data to prove any harm. We need at least a few more years to see where this goes. I agree that it will probably get worse, but let the numbers show it and bring a strong case in the future. Doing it now with the weak argument just makes archers look whiny and discredits their arguments in the future, because they have already established themselves a whiny group.

The problem is the horn hungry people that believe that if they feed n grow the deer they should b the only ones to kill them. REALLY GUYS LET'S NOT BLAME THE CROSSBOWS FOR OUR SELFISHNESS.

Just admit that nobody else is suppose to kill "ur" deer--and it certainly doesn't matter the weapon choice---

-it's a simple don't kill my deer thing these days......... n it's pretty pathetic/sad to see the way of hunting these days. HORN HUNGRY PEOPLE RUIN HUNTING FOR ALL......

FYI--- I don't use crossbowS I'll stick with compounds until I can't pull um back anymore. Makes me more disciplined as a hunter. Just wish it wasn't such a battle just to get some land to hunt without all the their my deer crap.....

Optimally, it would be great if xbows were brought back to the disabled or elderly only. A modified season would be a great win though too.

You can also use MI as an example of a state with seasons not mirroring the vertical bow season. In MI, xbows are not allowed during the late season in the UP. They are not even allowed during the muzzleloader season in the UP. If WI wins this, I hope MI would be a quick follower.

As some have stated above, if the overall kills (all seasons) have not exceeded the norms prior to xbows, that argument could hold water against changes. Everyone needs to vote.

Gets worse b4 it gets better...

The land will be select cutted, it will be farmed in some, but the conservation practice will be more old school and give the land, a better chance for all wild life, to thrive.....Proper water conservation and farm application will be followed, and good erosion control practices will enhance the spot

If someone asks, we will allow someone to turkey hunt or deer hunt there late season, when we are not there, just like we got permission from people in the area, in years past, there are a lot of good people out there

We do not consider any deer to be "our" deer, but we do believe in being good stewards of the land,,,,,,, we will develop real habitat, and the deer will come, and work is on going at this time,,,,,,, Next week the forester is coming, to check the health of some trees for us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

We want to restore prarie area also, which it already has a pretty good start, but needs my partners touch,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,its all a lot of work..................................

My small chunk in the UP, all I did was select cut it, and plant apple trees,,,,,,

I bought the land many years ago because the "gang" of guys that would March in shortly after daylight.. REALLY THE ONLY REASON U BUY LAND IS TO KEEP FROM OTHERS. SHOULD B ASHAMED OF URSELF.. N HE SAYS THEY AIN'T HIS DEER. LMFAO

I don't allow just everyone go hunt my land but I CERTAINLY DID NOT BUY THE LAND TO KEEP OTHERS FROM HUNTING.. I CAN SHARE CUZ I WAS RAISED BETTER THAN THAT... and still manage land for nice deer..... One would think that we should b able to allow people to hunt our land without worrying that they may kill a 2 year old buck. BUT IF THE HORNS R UR AGENDA THAN I BET U WOULD B PRETTY SAD. Who the heck crest what othershe use to kill deer n how many or how big there horns r... IT WOULD NOT MATTER IF U DIDN'T CARE SOLELY ABOUT THE HORNS

FYI----Just because some dont care if the horns get huge doesn't mean they don't have any land// it's simply a "my deer" thing because 100% of land bought these days r strictly to grow horns.. the heck with the meat n the memories of the hunts----it's ALL ABOUT THE HORNS.. N MOST WON'T HAVE IT IF SOMEONE ELSE KILLS IT... PATHETIC

MOST want crossbows gone do only to one factor----THE CROSSBOWS R KILLING ALL THE BIG BUCKS AND NOW I CAN'T KILL A BIG MATURE BUCK EVERY YEAR.... REALLY. IF WE DIDNT HAVE THE HORN FETISH// THAN THERE WOULD B NO WHINING ABOUT CROSSBOWS....

Unless land owners have a high fence around their land You are assuming a lot if you think a land owner that practices QDM or some form of that isn't benefiting others in that area even on public land. Those deer don't walk up to the property line with a Gps and then turn around and stay on that private land. I have a friend " upnorth" that shot a beautiful 162 buck this past year. He never saw that buck till the night he shot it. Through conversations and pictures that buck had been hunted 6 miles "straight line" away by others. That buck crossed along of public land before it got to him.

Again Thanks to all the property Tax paying land owners.

I am glad there are guys who only kill really big bucks, lets a lot of them walk, for me to hunt

FYI--I have seen the light and it don't look to bright these days.

Meathunter is hear to stir the pot. Aaron Doe??? That's original

Archery/crossbow= bucks only. Gun= brown it's down.

This may help you ,,Here's the definition of RARE rare1 /rer/ adjective adjective: rare; comparative adjective: rarer; superlative adjective: rarest (of an event, situation, or condition) not occurring very often. "a rare genetic disorder" synonyms: infrequent, scarce, sparse, few and far between, thin on the ground, like gold dust, as scarce as hen's teeth; More occasional, limited, odd, isolated, unaccustomed, unwonted "rare moments of privacy" antonyms: common, frequent •(of a thing) not found in large numbers and consequently of interest or value. "the jellyfish tree, one of the rarest plants on earth" synonyms: unusual

The problem is that if you dared speak against the “Process” you were committing the ultimate sin. The Conservation Congress, Congress Delegates, The DNR, Outdoor Media, & Sporting Groups have for years have misrepresented the "PROCESS" as a voice for the sportsman, all the while knowing they can willing ignore the wants and wishes of the public regardless of the vote. The uninformed masses of sportsmen have sucked this deception up and are now reaping the rewards, by believing that the Congress and the DNR are free of politics. The rank and file employees of the DNR were required for years to pay dues to their union which in turn funneled that millions to their favorite political party, yet we were told they were free from political influence. Now most of the Bowsite faithful; parrot the ever popular “we need our resources free of politics” when in fact they never were. For many Bowsiters as long as YOUR politics result in decisions you agree with its pure as the wind driven snow, when it does not its pure evil.

Not placing fault on any party. What I am stating is a fact that those who manage our resources in the past and in the future have and will have political bias just like anyone else who walks this planet. To assume otherwise is a dishonest proposition. Its when people's arguments lack substance they always throw out the politics and money card. Today many believe that in their mind: their position on an issue is correct, and anyone with a differing view has derived their position from an immoral standpoint, driven by politics and money.

Read into it what you want, and interpret as you may, however it is what it is, if you are willing to open your eyes and ears.

HF43

I do not know why they are so angry all the time,,,,,, geesh its like I have Durking and Bortz in my truck,,,, ha ha ha,,,,,,,,,,

This vote will be interesting, we will see who shows up, I would not miss this for the world, if they allow opinions to be given, it could be a long night,,,

I was at a gun show last night, and if your in favor or not, better get there to vote, because I can tell you, it was the talk around the vendor area,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Chapter 15 was designed by the Legislature to grant the Executive Branch certain powers over government agencies such as the DNR to which oversees. These government agencies are further granted "rule" making authority. "Rules" are made by agencies and "Laws" are made by the Legislature, while similar they are different. The basic distinction is that rule making authority is granted to the departments via the legislature. Legislators duly elected by the people make "laws" while unelected bureaucrats make "rules".

The point is by its very design all departments in the Executive branch that fall under Chapter 15 have been and always will be political in nature depending on the party in power. To claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest. We live in a "representative democracy", not a "democracy". I might suggest that some understand the difference.

As a people we often lose faith in our government, however the government always survives, its when we lose faith in each other we are doomed to failure. Here ends the lesson of the day.

HF43

There have been a lot of comments lately about why the DNR hasn't weighed in on issues at hearings. The reason is because they have been told specifically they're forbidden. Staff are prohibited from talking to the Legislature.

Even in a representative Democracy, the people in the executive branch deserve to have some autonomy and be allowed to do their jobs without being micromanaged. This is true for the heath of any organization.

Not saying what we have now is great, but they shot themselves in the foot,,,,, I know for this a fact, and I am sure you do too, in many ways,,,,,, add than there pro wolf wants, some of there ridiculous trapping rules, and the need to write a lot of citation paper, and their lousy customer service, and you have what you got now......

Attitude is everything..........................

Bottom line the crossbows went away for several years . We can get stuff done if enough hunters raise enough heck with enough people .

I did personally thank Russ but didn't vote for him . After All I am a Republican.

When appearing in public, or on social media, if you invoke your affiliation with the Conservation Congress, you are required to give the Conservation Congress position. Delegates who invoke their Conservation Congress affiliation and promote a view different from the Conservation Congress position will be subject to discipline by the Executive Committee, which may include removal from the Conservation Congress. This provision does not prohibit any Congress delegate from presenting his or her personal position or opinion, but requires him or her to identify such statement as that, and not the Conservation Congress position.

HF43

Bucks, Doe, Total

2016

Bow 28172 20100 48272

XBow 23562 16214 39776

2017

Bow 25783 19251 45037

XBow 27371 19715 47086

Keep in mind that the Annual DNR Spring Hearing/WCC County Meeting-Statewide are April 9.

Delegates are entitled to their own opinion and to share that opinion anytime or anywhere they like as long as it's done as their opinion.

For example, a delegate that wants to weigh in on a question at the spring hearings is supposed to do so from the main floor and declare that it is their personal opinion, not that of the Congress.

I don't have any issue with the concept and it's pretty typical of any position. When representing any entity, a person should represent that entities position and interest.

How Does the CC position vary from that of someone who works for the DNR?

Is there anything that precludes, prohibits, limits, infringes on a DNR employee from doing the same?

It appears that support what you can or can not say as delegate of the Congress, but you take issue with the same limitation on an employee of the DNR.

HF43

Beyond that, it is a waste to not take advantage of the expertise of DNR staff and ask (or even allow) for their input on topics that they are intimately knowledgeable with. I am a forester and land manager and because of that likely have more passion and insight about certain issues and can state my opinion about them any time I like to whomever I like. The fact that I happen to be a Congress delegate doesn't affect that unless I am specifically acting as a delegate. A DNR forester cannot do the same.

Likewise it may well be that once someone Tags a buck they have meet their yearly freezer point and simply do not hunt F. Or do not hunt as aggressively. Many seasons I get to the point where having already scored one nice buck I won't settle for something unimpressive. And that generally translates to no gun buck harvest. Suppose those guys don't even buy that F tag, why should they bother? Do we notice a corresponding decrease in F tag sales? Much of the decrease in F buck success could be attributed to this sort of thing. Who does that harm?

If the total buck kill does not get out of line, where is the harm and how does it matter to herd management if they are shot, or beat to death with baseball bats (ala archie bunker)?

I don't see relevance/value in application of weapon type success rate for any argument about weapon type seasons without better data and analysis. We need to understand with certainty what is going on and why.

I think that at a minimum we need cross bow buck/antlerless harvest data broken down by:

1) Lesser included weapon kill dates. By this I mean all CB harvests at those times, (Firearms season, Muzz , Antlerless/Holiday hunt, Youth) not just for peeps without the CB lic utilizing the LIW allowance.

2) CB Harvest data for people 65 or older.

3) CB harvest data for people who previously held Disability permits. For times before CB use under LIW this should be CB-65, right? And we can look at trends to try and estimate it for the recent years when permits are no longer required.

4) Public land v Private CB harvests

5) CB success rates by if also hold VB license.

6) CB success rates by if also hold Gun license. And the stats on how many harvest 2 bucks.

Half back up this this thread Mike F used these words “fix the current situation”. But what is that? Let us define that with real data and good analysis. Understanding always has to precede solutions. We need to define the problem unequivocally ( let alone prove it exists) before it is reasonable to consider remediation. We are not there yet. So far we have a boogy man story.

Eliminate Firearm group bagging for bucks. And for antlerless outside of herd reduction zones. This is a bigger threat to your buck harvest desires than limiting CB seasons. If bow harvest success is an issue why allow group tagging for bucks with guns? Nobody says there are too many bucks anywhere. Why do we allow this?

I guess I don't see what all the commotion is about. These numbers are from the DNR web site showing license sales and deer harvest for crossbow, vertical bow and gun. Bucks/license sales/percentage of buck harvest Gun: 2014 97,196/609,816/15.9% 2015 99,757/613,165/16.2% 2016 105,186/599,862/17.5% Bow: 2014 30,433/232,718/13% 2015 31,229/227,700/13.7% 2016 28,172/229,880/12.2% Crossbow: 2014 15,768/113,506/13.8% 2015 20,594/131,293/15.6% 2016 23,652/149,348/15.7%

What is the big deal with these numbers? Someone please explain how and why we are worried about over harvest.

I have not seen license totals sold. Even without the number of licenses sold, these numbers are not much different in the grand scheme of things. Guns hunters aren't complaining, biologists aren't complaining, crossbow hunters aren't complaining and for the most part neither are most vertical bowhunters. This seems like a witch hunt from those that were pissed when they allowed crossbows. You show me some real numbers and I will vote to shorten the season, until then it is a witch hunt.

So what if the vote passes to shorten the season, who decides when it should be shortened? What if they shorten it by eliminating the late season, or a later start? The only way some here will be happy is if they lose the rut. If you don't like when it is shortened, will you continue the fight? What happens if it does not pass? Will you drop this rant or continue on? Gun hunters aren't all that pissed, heck many of them took up the crossbow.

Do you live under a rock? Gun only hunters have been whining about bowhunters getting to hunt the rut for years. It was bad before crossbows. A more efficient weapon in archery season only makes it worse.

GEEZ

Capt Mike, good point on the success rate. Which is probably what drove the increase in xbow kills.

I think he answered the question before you asked it.

If it is getting to this point, heck just let stick bow shooters, have the season, and the rest can hunt after gun season, ha ha ha

2) If the gun crowd has been complaining for years, and nothing has been done, why are we now concerned? It's almost like a group that complains all the time with no basis doesn't get listen to, a lesson that some archers could learn from. There's even a book about it , The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

3) Any evidence of the gun hunter outrage that have any substance? I have never heard a gun hunter complain about bow hunters. Any documents, spring hearing questions, sponsored bills or really anything that supports this fear of gun hunters? What's the percentage of archers that don't gun hunt? I would bet that the group of archer/gun hunters is close to the same size as gun only hunters.

Is this bowsite or a crossbow forum, yes it is bowsite. I hunt 90% of my time with my Stalker Recurve the other 10% with my compound. If the numbers actually proved that crossbows were hurting, I would support it, but the numbers from the DNR don't show that. Look back at some previous years when the vertical buck kill was close to 20% and then go back 15-20 years and look at percentages in the 6% buck kill. It could be argued that the technology of bows increased the kill percentage. Were the same guys crying then to shorten and restrict equipment?

There is only one Mission model, the SUB-1 that comes close to the Ravin's and it has a horrible cocking mechanism. De-cocking it is even worse. Price $1700

A friend of mine with a shoulder problem had a problem with is old Tenpoint and wanted to ditch it, or fix it and keep it as a backup. He looked and looked for a Ravin R9 during the season with no luck. Could not even find anyone with one available online. I told him I had noticed they had some at Scheels. He bought one over the phone without ever touching one. He totally loves it.

No one claimed the 2017 numbers are a threshold for anything, except you. They are simply the last set of numbers in a progression that shows a changing trend. Sorry if this passed over your head. What should be done about the years when archers killed more deer? Are you living in the past or just trying to rewrite history? There is a popular metaphor about an ostrich sticking its head in the sand...

Must have struck a nerve......:^)

It’s easy to sit behind a key board and type stupid crap. It’s another to look at that same person face to face and say the exact same stupid crap.

What a selfish bunch. Go to one buck tag. Fill it any way you want with the season peramiters we have currently. Quite simple and problem is solved.

I know a lot of archers, who really had some physical issues, in their late 50's, guys who paid their dues, but could not get the sign off on the permit,,, and these are not lazy hunters.....

my brother in law, combat vet, lost his leg in a snowmobile accident, hit by a irresponsible underage drinking operator,,,,, after awhile, the leg pain got really bad, and the doctors in Milwaukee, at Froedert, tried to fix, what they screwed up, up north,,,, The doctor concurred, that the pain was going to affect his shoulder muscles.....

For a xbow test, they gave him a finger dexterity test, said he was fine,,,,, he quit the archery season, could not pull the bow,,,,,,, he had gone to 2 doctors,,,,, it was a mess,,,,,

I know of other stories, but he wanted the crossbow for 55 and over,,,,, well the state voted in favor of that, but the WCC did not get it passed,,,,,

I said after that, its only a matter of time, for full inclusion,,,,, a lot of stubborn people out there, who lack common sense

DT, sounds like your wife could easily get a handicapped permit. So I don't really see what your complaint is.

Longbow, where did I ask for a change in the archery season? All I want is for my wife to be able to enjoy time in the woods like I do. If that’s selfish then so be it.

I’m a bow hunter only. I have shot a xbow once in my life and that was 3 shots to see what they were like. I have been shooting a bow since 1963 in one shape or another.

A guy with a compound, 85% or greater let off, release, and mechanical heads is just as accurate if not more so than the average guy with a xbow at the same yardage. So “where’s the beef”?

Personally I have yet to see any gun hunters complaining on what the crossbow shooters are tagging on any other forums or Facebook pages.

The only complaints I see are here on Bowsite.

How many gun hunting only wi forums do you visit? To my knowledge there aren't any. Remember years ago when hunters mostly gun only had enough of EAB and showed up in Madison in high numbers? That will happen again. But it won't be EAB they are pissed about. It will be ALL those bowhunters that get a crack at the bucks when they are in rut.

Show me the numbers, the biological reasons for a 1 buck rule, and I will listen

Theres a Forum call Crossbow nation . Go hang out there & leave Bowsite to the Vertical bow people .

“There is absolutely no biological reason for a one buck season.”

Obviously there is if we are talking shortening seasons and taking away opportunities.

The anti hunting crowd must be loving this conversation. All the talk about shortening seasons and taking away opportunity.

Trying to nip something in the ass before it causes a problem like 1 buck.

Trying to nip something in the ass before it causes a problem like 1 buck.

So I agree, if you do not vote, you have no complaint,,,,, I realize that some have to work, etc, but for those who do not, get out and vote........

If you show up to vote it shows your passionate about something and that’s the people they want to attract. Just like the Ferrell cat issue.

I LOVED that set when i was a kid, my Mom not so much. She didn't like suction cup marks all over her clean windows, fridge, mirrors...

Capt, Id let you try my junior Indian guide kit, but I dont think your ready to shoot a bow without let off. LOL!

Them xbowers want that rut, that is the reason they bought them

Not sure. It would less difficult for the voter than showing up at limited locations at specific times. Perhaps DNR could give out numbers to residents for free. Should non-residents be able to vote? Are they? Only if they buy a license?

All of those questions and many, many others have been considered. It is a very complex issue.

There has to be a better system that what we have today. On the other hand today's system is better than we had 40 years ago.

While I get idea that most feel that anyone voting should have to have a license, there is an argument against it too. Not all people who have interest in natural resources and conservation are consumptive users. For example I am pretty sure there is a question on the ballot again this year about requiring all boats to have registrations. If we are going to vote on something that affects people who may just be out paddling, they deserve input. What about bird watchers? The American Bird Conservancy has spent millions in the last few years on habitat projects on private lands. Those projects were specifically aimed at song birds as well as grouse and woodcock. Is it fair to say those outdoorspeople don't get to vote?

As I said there are dozens of different issues that go into the potential idea of online voting. That is why it is being looked into very carefully before any changes are proposed.

We have the Ozaukee/Washington Land Trust, they preserve a lot of land, and work on it, they show up and vote, so not everyone, is a hunter or fisherman......

They all drive cars, they have their drivers license with them, that is all you need, you do not need a hunting or fishing license, to vote at the meeting, just live in that county

This mornings channel 7 news interviewed a dealer who will be at the Deer show in wausau this weekend . He talked about archery & held up a Crossbow & bragged about it shooting 1 inch groups at 100 yards . At 8 $ a ticket I'm not going .

Thursday at a business in Merrill A lady asked if I could setup crossbows for her & her husband . I gave her a price . She said fine . A customer in the store asked if I could setup 2 for her & her grandson . When I got home the 1st lady called and wanted a 3 crossbows .

I'm a small time gun & knife guy in a small town . multiply that statewide .

I did do a survey of the 5 . 1 bowhunter . 2 gunhunters & 2 that never hunted Deer . WOW. . Those peacefull Oct woods are going to get real busy .

They already are. But remember we can't think about it that way, it makes us selfish. Plus according to a few of the know it alls. We are just worried about losing a few of "our" deer.

And yea I was not happy with the dealers comment about a 3 bolt 1 inch group at 100 yards . Thats dumb luck or he's lying . I ' ll challenge anyone to shoot a 1 inch group for a 100 dollat bill .

Yes I setup Crossbows for the locals . I do it the right way for cheap money . Lubed & adjusted properly & sited in for 30 yatds . If you lived in a small town you would understand .

Did I punch you on a playground 60 years ago .:-)

According to your thinking if I was walking past a lake & Nancy polosi was yelling , " Help me " . I would jump in . HMMM .

Much better to wait until the crossbow technology exceeds the sub 2" group at 100 yards that it's at now. Being that there is no human limit on crossbows. There really is no limit on what they can do with them. But yeah they belong in bow season.

Nope. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Compounds have been around for a long time with no negative impact. There is no issue with compound bows but there is an alarming, negative trend occurring with cross bows.

Yes, it did, but there were other factors.

The compound bow was invented and patented in the mid-to-late 1960s. By 1971 there were early commercial models appearing in dealers showrooms and they were being sold to bowhunters and target archers alike. In 1971 release aids for both target archers and bowhunters were becoming increasingly popular and were allowing more accurate shooting. In 1971 the WI DNR legalized the use of elevated devices (tree stands) for deer hunting. While these three insturments were available to bowhunters in 1971, their use rate was relatively low. Still however, in 1971 100,206 licensed WI bowhunters took 6,522 deer resulting in a 6.5% success rate.

The compound bow, the release aid, and the tree stand all combined to greatly affect the success percentage of the WI bowhunter during the decade of the 1970s.

By 1981 an increasing number (as compared to 1971) of WI bowhunters were using compound bows, release aids, and tree stands. In 1981 there were 173,874 licensed bowhunters in Wisconsin and they took 29,083 deer resulting in a 16.7% success rate.

During the decade of the 1970s the success rate of bowhunters more than doubled due to the combined effect of three new and increasingly popular hunting instruments: the compound bow, the release aid, and the tree stand.

It is correct to say the compound bow, after being introduced, did affect the success rate of WI bowhunters. However, the increasingly popular use of the release aid and the tree stand also affected the success rate of WI bowhunters during the 1970s. How much any one of these affected the success rate is impossible to know.

Capt, What do you think was the major cause of this? Warmer boots? :>)

I’ve shown statistics to back what I’ve been saying. You, just unsubstantiated hearsay and barstool talk.

I see many people shooting a vertical bow, that I would say are not archers

Where I hunt most, if I see a deer it’s in range under 40 yards.

I don’t hunt with a xbow I use a 6 year old Bowtech Destroyer 350, HHA slider, QAD rest, Gold Tip Arrows, and Slick Trick 100 grn. heads.

I will always be an advocate for my wife’s ability to use her xbow and be able to enjoy all the things about the fall that I do. I get more thrill out of her tails of that days hunt when we get back to the house than my own.

You can try and twist it all you want. BUT a bow in the hands of a less than a well seasoned archer is a wounding machine. Much more so than a xbow.

Capt, you bring up a good point. We should look at shortening the days a compound shooter can hunt also as they are far superior to the trad. Equipment.

The real issue in my opinion is how bad will the herd be messed up with 100,000 Xbows hunting during the Rut ?

Been looking at my Remington 700 .270. Shoulder fired, scope sighted weapon and very effective....still would not be archery. I still choose to further limit myself during the archery season....

So I should be able to use one of my rifles during bow season?

I don't view a kill rate on bucks with crossbow as higher than gun. In 2016 the number was 15.7% CB compared to 17.5% with gun. When you say I am off topic lol I am simply rebutting what the anti cb hunters are using for arguments in this thread.

She would love to hunt with a virtical bow as she has a nice one but it ain’t happening.

I personally don’t like xbows but I’m caught in the middle and of course I’m leading the charge for my wife. She just wants to go out and hunt. She could care less about all the political BS. I think many others here would be better off if they did the same.

PETA and HSUS must be having a field day with this thread of hunters restricting opportunities of other hunters. It’s what they have been trying for decades to do and it isn’t costing them a dime getting it done.

I think she will find the crossbow, to be a pain in the ass and not so much fun, and not very mobile etc,,,,,,

I had to use one last month for hunting,,,,, not too much fun,,,, you got to walk to your spot, than you got to cock it, then your there, a pain to carry, than you got to discharge it, so you can sling it home,,,, she may find that , that might not be too much fun...

a 30lb compound made today is a lot of fun, she could do it all,,,,

Nice try!

In the October 1956 issue of the NATIONAL BOWHUNTER MAGAZINE, in the "Bluntly Speaking" column by Carl Hulbert, editor, on page 18 Hulbert addresses the issue of minimum bow draw weight in Wisconsin.

Hulbert corrects the false assumption that the WI Bowhunters Assoc. recommended the 30# minimum draw weight requirement and that because of this recommendation it was entered into the statutes. Hulbert explains that a few years ago, probably sometime between 1950 - 1955, the WBH officers recognized that the 40# minimum, in place at that time, was unrealistic due to improvements and changes in bow construction, materials, and draw length. He reports that the WBH asked the WI Conservation Dept. to delete any bow draw weight requirements from the hunting regulations. This was a simple and straight forward request but Hulbert reports the department was fearful of completely elminating a weight requirement due to problems that might arise and further, misunderstood the rationale behind the request. Therefore, the department simply lowered the minimum weight requirement to 30# where it has remained for over 60 years.

Hulbert went on to explain the position of the WBH and many members regarding this minimum recommended bow draw weight. He concludes by saying, "We want to stress the importance of not accepting the 30 # Wisconsin limit as a recommended minimun. Wisconsin Bowhunters do not recommend it."

Hey guys, the above is WI bowhunting history,...it happened over 60 years ago! Keep that in mind when you read it,...a long time ago,...old news now but interesting and fun to learn about.

+1 RJN

Then there are a few guys I know that have "bad shoulders" that had to switch to a crossbow. Mind you these guys can play 18 holes of golf 3 times a week. I'm not saying DT's wife doesn't have a legitimate ailment. I still think he should get her to a DR. that actually knows what it takes to shoot a bow. She would get her handicapped permit no problem.

I wonder if the writers & him are pals . whatta a joke .

My answer to Paul Smith is this,,,,,,,, why not than just open up all the Driftless Area for bait and keep trout fishing, why not just have a free for all on all the streams,,,, I can assure you his crowd would go nuts with that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

My comparison is that the WBH and all archers, did a lot of work, and gave us the long season we have today,,,,,, Sure there was some yelling when the compound came, but you still have to draw it and shoot it, and it has proven to grow our sport........

The trout fishing in the Driftless area, is great, a result of hard work, and some restrictions, to make it stay that way,,,,,,,,,, Well archery also should be the same way,,,,,,

No one is arguing for the cross bow for the elderly, disabled, or those who can prove a need for it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

My guess is that the vote will go in favor, of archers, but than it will be sat on, for along time, and probably never changed,,,,,,,,

I have my own opinions, like we all do,,,,,, This is only going to affect the Public Land hunter, I mean on Private land, you can do what you want, who is going to check anyway,,,,,,,

Why don't we all cut to the chase,,,,,, its not about cross bows, its about using them, during the rut, get rid of that, you got rid of the issue

I could be wrong but I am thinking any crossbow permits that were issued in the past that have not expired are still valid and I also suspect that the age exception is still on the books. Just did not mean anything while xbow was legal for everyone. If the xbow season gets shorter I would think those permits would still be honored during the times when xbow is not allowed.

The greed was unbelievable. Even though they are able to go out and purchase bows and crossbows they don't care. They want the deer to be there for them no matter what!

It’s common human behavior to want the latest and greatest but achieved interest wains with time.

Yes I’m well aware of Ravens ability of their grouping at 100+ yards. The false claim comes giving poeople the idea the same can be achieved in hunting scenarios on live animals. While possible it’s not probable.

Look at the kills in my post above. You can see a clear picture of when compounds came on the scene and the subsequent rise in kill numbers. All of a sudden there is a issue?

How much of this bar room talk of rifle hunters voicing concern has been incited by virtical bow hunters trying to get their wish? Plenty I would suspect!!

Typical lynch mob tactics. (I like old westerns)

4,3,2,1..................

2 guys stopped today so I could look at at 1's Rem 740 Jam-0- matic . Qhile repairing the gun the subject of Crossbows came up . They said crossbows won't hurt them , they have a 80 & a 160 to hunt . I told them I killed 5 nice Bucks when I owned my farm & only 1 was " my Deer " . The rest traveled miles chasing hot does . That got them fired up .

Here is more data in the link. It clearly shows that while there have been ups and downs in Kill numbers by weapon. But the total harvest all weapons show a rather stagnant trend.

Further proving it’s a nonissue and discredits the sky is falling of some here.

Glenn also does a good job of proving my statement on inciting others is true. Bow hunters poking the bear to get them to rise up. The guys were quite content till the pot was stirred.

When gun hunters give up group bagging I might then appreciate their worry about kill numbers.

Basing seasons on social rather than science is a path to the end as a precedent has been set.

Buck NO I and my wife are not for the airbow. BUT there is a bill currently out there to allow the use of them in the gun season as a lesser weapon. So you know where that will go! Buck never is a long time and hope you never have to hunt with one because of physical limitations but to say never you know you are Chitting yourself!

HF43

RJN- Not really for or against, do not own one nor do I plan on purchasing that type of bow. I do however enjoy all of the hype and hysteria surrounding the issue. Not sure if my practice time, club membership, etc. would qualify me for an "archer card", but hey I'm alright in my own skin. I hope this helps.

Keep your stick on the ice

HF43

Then in the next you want the legislature to act on a “social” predicament because the fore mentioned would not support the agenda of the group.

No one over 70 should pay for any license, in my opinion

MN has lifetime licenses. I bought both bow and gun deer licenses. They are good even if you later move out of state which is awesome. Price depends on how old you are when you bought it. Wish Wisconsin had them back in the mid 70's when I was still a resident and in college. Would have bought them in a heartbeat.

I have been carrying a bow for hunting since 1971 and I remember those years. There was much jubilation for the high kill numbers and things were just peachy. We are no where near those numbers and now it’s doom and gloom.

Come on Captmike show me something other than your bullying and personal disdain for xbows and why we need a change.

DT, why do you consider being showed the err of your ways bullying? It is a simple fact, there is no 2017 info in anything you have posted yet.

158812 Bucks harvested.

Fill in the graph yourself. Once again showing total harvest remains stagnant for another year.

CaptMike I’m still waiting on data rather than deflection to substantiate your statements. It’s plain and simple, you can’t!

Do you really want to wait until the DNR sounds the alarm? Do you want the whole states deer herd to be as dismal as it is in the north? The DNR does a lot of great things, but they balance that out with a lot of bureaucratic stupidity.

From 3 different clubs, from predator hunts to rabbit hunts, to club shoots, I believe, that unless your over 55, you will not be at the WCC meeting,,,,,, Most do not care about the issue, one way or the other,,,,, Most of our youth and up to in their 40's only talk deer, like they talk about baseball, its all about scores...................

Sunday at a game farm, where I was hunting with my dog, that is all you hear, scores, or I do not shoot anything under 160, etc,,,, when asked about xbows, the answer was who cares,,,,,, I own private land,,,, I can do what I want,,,, and on and on,,,,,,, that is the attitude.................

I am 68,,,,,, our days are done,,,,,, its a whole new world now,,,,,, I will continue to preach and uplift when I can, the traditions and history of our bowhunting, but for the most part it is falling on deaf ears.................

I grew up learning how to set snares, no plugging in to a virtual world, so yes we are at a change,,,,,,,,,

I think this state is really screwed up in so many ways,,,,,,, I have friends that are on both sides of the political aisle, a lot of them, feel gut shot, from what they have seen, that now stands for conservation in this state.....................

I will ruffle feathers here, but from what I have seen on the CDAC, has not impressed me,,,,, they should listen more to science, than their own personal views, on a changing deer herd and landscape..................

Deer are so over micro managed now, its at the point of being ridiculous,,,,,, I mean come on, oh well, my view means nothing anyway, but that is how I see it,,,,,,

The current "rage" is to use technology to eliminate as much of the effort as you can, while maximizing your chance for success.

While everyone else seems to be worried about who shoots the most "trophies", I hope to be the first guy to shoot a drone down with a stickbow. :>)

If you shoot a drone, use a Flu Flu,

Ground hunter, A new longbow sounds like fun. Turkey season is right around the corner! Pretty soon its time to sharpen a snuffer.....

The only thing I disagree with is using flu flu's on drones. I am more partial to using heavy shot 3" mag #2's, I can reach out and destroy them at 75 yards.....

I do all my hunting on Capt. Mikes land. :>)

The counties get the harvest data, weapon type, public vs private, auto-deer collisions, and licensed hunter info. What other figures are the DNR allowed to collect? Remember the legislature decided not to manage deer by science any more. Now (starting 5 years ago) the politicians manage deer by hunter satisfaction through the opinion of local county boards/councils, with final approval by the governor appointed Natural Resources Board. What ever they all decide; the DNR has to implement. This is what Wisconsin voted for!

My point is, I am not content to simply ask for them to manage by science. The goals of the "science" needs to be defined as it is used here. In this situation, science comes from a compromise of all the various interest groups voicing their interests. Hunters need to continue to do that as the others surely are.

Are the counties thus empowered?

Yes, for the last 5 years......... http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/cdac.html