If the only "concrete proof" accepted is a dead body then, yeah just one. If you mean tracks, hair or scat (sometimes with confirmed ML DNA), or sightings by honest people of good repute, or pictures said to be taken in the northeast, then no, there are quite a few examples of that.
I don't think every reported sighting is a lion, some people can't tell the difference between a bobcat and and a cougar. Some see a coyote or a dog at a distance, and say "Mountain Lion!". But what about people who get a good clean look in good light? A Mountain Lion doesn't look like any other animal that we have around here.
I have spoken to at least 10 people who say that they saw a Mountain Lion in the northeast who are honest practical people who know what a lion looks like, and know the difference between a lion and other animals in the woods. One friend saw a big cat in WIlton, and observed it for several minutes through the scope on his rifle.
Anyone ever wonder why there are no reports of wolverines or badgers? Anyone question why Mountain Lions are mentioned several times in the CT Hunting Regs, but not a single mention of badgers or wolverines, prarie dogs, or even wolves.
10:14. If we had lions, of all the hundreds of thousands of game camera images produced all over the state by guys on this site, don't you think at least one would have been caught on camera and posted here or elsewhere?
1240. Dan, but I do. So between the two of us, we have definitive proof of bobcats in CT.
V. Mountain lions are not dieties. They kill stuff, poop, leave tracks, and sometimes get hit by cars. God doesn't leave physical evidence of His presence. Lions do.
Check out the picture. I was at Sessions today. That's the skull of the one killed in Milford.
3:11pm. Ace. Show us exactly where in the CT hunting regs that it mentions mountain lions even once. http://www.ct.gov/deep/lib/deep/hunting_trapping/pdf_files/fg2018.pdf. And it doesn’t mention those other animals you mentioned either because CT is outside their range.
V. Angles? Like obtuse and acute angles?
Bob. I don’t follow the “logic” with your statement. Many guys on this site have been bitten and many have had LD, therefore, LD exists in CT. Because you haven’t gotten it doesn’t mean it’s not here. I’ve never seen a humpback whale in Long Island Sound, but I know they have been there.
Show me proof that we have had more than one mountain lion in CT in the past 100 years. Show me a poop, hair, a track, a game camera image, something to show definitive proof of their existence in CT. Ace’s link was just a site that documented people’s sightings of them and offered no proof. They have cougars out west and there are lots of pictures of them on people’s decks, on game cameras, there’s video of them, etc. Yet everyone knows someone who has seen one or seen one themselves here in CT, but no one, I mean no one can produce a photo, a track, scat, nothing. Don’t you find that odd? Additionally, on January 22 of this year, eastern cougars were removed from the Endangered Species List due to lack of evidence of breeding populations. See link.
The one that was hit and killed in CT, that lone individual’s presence was confirmed through DNA in feces and hair samples at 5 locations along its route (MN, WI, MI) and was photographed 4 times on game cameras in WI and MI and was also photographed in Greenwich, CT. That lone individual’s presence was documented on what, 10 different occasions (11 if you include its carcass) across the country. If we had lions here in CT, someone would be able to produce proof of their existence. Not saying they might not disperse here from out west, but to say they are living amongst us without leaving a shred of proof is preposterous.
Uh Dad it’s over 40 cams. Not sure where ya got 16. I have 35+ cams out myself year round. Bobcats lucky if i get one piceverybfew seasons and only 2 bear pics ever. Locations ranging from Greenwich to Newtown. Must not be many bears or bobcats between those distances.
I was totally in the "it's BS" camp RE mt Lions... But I've modified in my old age. Why - that Dakota to CT cat, coupled with MDFW documented tracks, and scat (DNA) here in MA. There was also a documented EASTERN Mt Lion shot and killed in what now is Quabbin in the early 30's - years after they were supposedly extinct... Ive seen the newspaper clipping and I know MDFW has a copy or has seen it, and others in that area have seen it (the paper clipping with the old photo showing a mt lion with a convex v concave face - IE Eastern v Western). Maybe 2 years ago in Petersham MA a horse was attacked, MDFW bios said "gate injury or maybe a bear"... Given a 500# bear was shot literally a quarter to half mile from the spot it seems reasonable... but the home owner sent blood and some "tissue" from the gate to two labs, one in NC and one AZ if my memory is correct, and DNA came back as 100% mountain lion... Walkabout maybe?
That said, it's so rare, that each instance could be like that CT cat - a critter on a walkabout.
Couple that with the number of times people I'd suspect would "know" have shown me a trail cam pic of a bobcat (clearly) or a dang house cat, heck, even a yote, and swore up and down it was a Mt lion. Add the zillion trail cams through out New England trying to find the Mt Lions favorite feast (deer) and not one documented picture - ever? That's tough to square.
I believe sometimes, someone may see one. I believe most of the time, we are fooled into thinking we see one. And I believe now and then, one actually shows up here.
"3:11pm. Ace. Show us exactly where in the CT hunting regs that it mentions mountain lions even once. http://www.ct.gov/deep/lib/deep/hunting_trapping/pdf_files/fg2018.pdf. And it doesn’t mention those other animals you mentioned either because CT is outside their range. "
This article (The Quest for the Eastern Cougar) is some interesting reading. Unless of course, you know it all already, then don't bother.
Link will not embed, try copying and pasting this: https://books.google.com/books?id=uk4RwmyJ-RUC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=puma+concolor+quabbin&source=bl&ots=3t1uq_Npwt&sig=8qmnYd3b83kSZNy_wgABxx2F820&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim_p3olYPZAhULOawKHbjkAf4Q6AEIYzAO#v=onepage&q=puma%20concolor%20quabbin&f=false
Whenever evidence is presented, pictures, scat, hair, tracks pictures or castings, it's called inconclusive or the integrity of the person is called into question. Some people couldn't say "escaped pet" fast enough when that one was hit in Milford. Until the necropsy and DNA testing was done. Oops, then it was a "one-time thing". If the state REALLY wants evidence, offer amnesty for the first person who shoots one.
Ace. There actually used to be eastern lions in CT, 200 years ago. Their status had been unknown for sometime, but without credible evidence of breeding for some time, they were declared extinct by USFWS in 2011 and then removed from the Endangered Species List last week.
And Will, I think that article I posted the link to said the last known eastern lion was killed in 1938 in New Brunswick and the last documented eastern lion in the US was in ME in 1932. Wasn't aware about the one in MA, but seems like that time was their last gasp.
Toonces. That wasn't an eastern mountain lion. It dispersed from the west.
First off Ace, that's a book. Just show us the evidence is all I'm saying. If they're here, show me proof beyond word of mouth. I've never seen an eagle on my property but I have a photograph of a juvenile chewing on my deer carcass. I can even show you the trees in the background of the photograph. I've seen fisher on my property and have pictures too. Coyotes and foxes too. I've never seen a bobcat on my property and don't photographs of one either, but other folks in town have documentation. A wallaby was hit and killed in Marlborough years ago. Does that mean we have a clandestine breeding population of wallabies? Of course not. So why is it any different with mountain lions? What is the obsession in clinging onto and defending the impossible?
Doc - you want scat, come to the dinner next week and I'll have a large bag of it for you. ;) I'm sure some of the other guys are willing to chip in as well.
If doc and bob go to the dinner, can I go too? That would be worth the price of admission alone. Of course Bob would probably chicken out and say his water heater blew up, lol.
If there were mountain lions living in CT, there would be evidence. No photos, no tracks, no kills nothing.
I can’t tell you how many times I have had people bring me to a spot to show me lion tracks no doubt about it they we defenite. Ecxept they were canine tracks or Bobcat tracks. Show me legitimate tracks, show me a kill. Show me a photo. I am convinced that the reason why there are so many reports of lion sightings is people want to believe they live here, but they don’t really know what they are looking at when They see something. I especially enjoy the reports of black lions or finding prey remains in trees
There here I’ve seen one but no one would ever believe me so I just keep my mouth shut it’s easier. I’m still not willing to kill it just to prove u wrong Doc.
Dr Williams. I hear you. I think they walkabout now and then... A population... Unlikely.
That said, there is a guy from my home town who, I guess, I'd call a naturalist. He has a degree in biology, and has done tons of work with Audubon, Harvard U, a few other colleges and various land preservation groups over the years - leading "nature hikes" and what not. He's been convinced they have been here for years, and claims to have seen one in Quabbin. He was involved with documenting tracks and scat in Quabbin in the 90's one time as well. That said, I was getting coffee in the local country store just before the holidays, he was there, so we got to chatting and the topic of Mt Lions came up. He's convinced there is a small remnant population... I asked how, with thousands and thousands of trail cams in the woods, has no one ever gotten a picture in New England. His response: "The lion wouldnt be in the same spot, precisely same spot as the deer, so they are likely not triggering the cameras." I let that one go... When you WANT something enough, you cant change your mind.
Why would he change his mind Will? He has seen one, he KNOWS that there was at least one once in that spot. How in the world does a sighting NOT prove that they are present, yet no game cam pictures DOES prove that they are not present? That is so ass backwards that I really can't even believe that people say it.
As I said, I have spoken to several people who saw one, they mostly don't care whether you believe them or not, they know it to be true.
Pictures, you want pictures? Cats, (multiple) were seen on the bank of the Housatonic River by a fly fisherman. He told some people what he saw and was not believed, was told that he should have taken a picture. He saw them again, took a picture that time, showed it to a DEP Employee, who said "There is no proof that picture was taken in CT".
Believe what you want, but your doubt proves nothing. And that inconvenient dead one in Milford should give you a bit of pause. Usually the doubters will fall back on "escaped pet" or "no breeding population". But then, I never heard anyone say that there were a bunch of them, just that they saw one.
One did walk through here and was killed by a car almost as soon as it arrived. It was seen by many, it left tangible evidence. all that proves is that a lion walked through here. That doesn't prove "they are here" I have never been to an area that has so many lion sightings with no tangible evidence. If they live in an area, it's not a mystery, they leave evidence of their existence. one thing I have not heard any reports of is dead livestock. They are opportunistic, sheep, cattle, goats etc are easy compared to a deer. The dog warden "saw one" in the town I live in. He saw it within a 1/4 mile of a farm with cattle, there were plenty of calves and within a mile of a second farm with cattle, yet no reported predation. That just doesn't add up to me.
My memory is coming back now...didnt a couple of cougars escape in Stratford in the early 70's..they were the ones used in the old cougar commercials..
Wasn't there a news report saying coywolves we're now appearing in new England? Maybe we have bobcougars as well, transgender doebucks and totally f'd up notbbb.
Ace - glad you asked - because clearly I didnt lay out my comment well. I was not doubting that he saw one. I was trying to say, that this is a guy who should know what he's seeing, and who I trust to ID one correctly... But who still cant - in my opinion - explain why thousands of camera traps set through out New England have never got a picture.
Hey, the one from SD that was run over down there, went through a bunch of states. To my knowledge, no trail cam's got him on film either, so perhaps the trail cam thought is not as good as it seems.
I dont buy a sustaining population. But cat's on a walkabout - that happens - as you noted and the CT cat proves. It's unlikely it's just one, and perhaps that's why people occasionally see them.
Ditto wolves - one was shot by a farmer in Shelbourne MA several years ago - it was genetically found to have origins in Quebec (as I recall hearing at the time)... but for some reason that wolf took a heck of a walk. Why it chose to eat a bunch of sheep, I have no idea. I guess MA's deer density just didnt provide enough chow! But that lead to the farmer shooting it and MDFW doing the analysis.
Point being, these critters dont know boundaries and if the wander lust hits, they sure seem to go with it.
One comment. When someone says "there are NO Mountain Lions in CT", they are calling a person who says that they saw one a liar. That happens so often that it discourages people from reporting what they saw, or think they saw.
Ask yourself this: Would you rather see a mountain lion in the woods, or get a Trail Camera Picture of one? I think if most of us were being honest, we rather see one. But then you'd be considered a liar too, because people would tell you that you didn't see what you believe that you saw. If you get a Pic, some would look at it and say "that wasn't taken in CT". I think it took decades to get a pic in Michigan, After a concerted effort to do so.
Anyone getting pics of Moose in CT? I don't think I have seen any posted and they are here in decent numbers.
Everyone has their own reasons to feel the way they do on the subject, but I think that to dismiss out of hand reports from credible people discourages disclosure. Obviously, some, many, heck most, reports are cases of mistaken identity. But when someone that you know tells you they saw one, and that person has both credibility with you, and no reason to lie, why would you question their honesty?
Try this (I have done it), in a group of hunters or fisherman, ask if anyone has seen a mountain lion in the woods. I think that you'll find that someone you know (and trust) will confess that they had. And they'll probably add that they have been called a liar so often that they don't tell the story anymore.
Fascinating subject, one that has interested me for a long time.
10:07. And Will you are right. People want to believe there are lions in the Northeast so much, that they can’t see the obvious, that there has been exactly zero evidence of breeding lions in the Northeast in nearly 100 years. The USFWS declared them extinct and then removed them from the Endangered Species List due to that lack of evidence. Yet people are hanging on despite zero tracks, zero scats, zero hair, zero photographs, zero confirmed predation of livestock, and zero roadkills. This of course excludes the one that was killed on the Parkway in Milford. And the presence of that one animal was confirmed by photographs and DNA on a dozen different occasions in what, 5 different states and it was confirmed it was a male that dispersed from South Dakota. And as BB said, that proves that a lion walked through here and left tangible evidence. Yes, I am a doubter because of all these “sightings,” there is zero evidence to confirm. Ace will now say that that photograph got damaged somehow or DEP confiscated it or something like that so it can’t be seen. If we have lions in our midst and a remnant population is hanging on, show us some tangible evidence beside “I know a guy who saw one.”
All eastern coyotes can be considered “coywolves” as western coyotes crossbred with wolves in Canada on their eastward invasion. There are not coyotes and coywolves, they are the same thing. That is why our eastern coyotes are generally larger than western coyotes in their native range.
This is my favorite proof of a “mountain lion sighting.” A friggin housecat walking across a field in Webster, MA. Give me a break.
That pic is what I'm talking about. People post stuff like that to the interwebs or news outlets and actually think that's a mountain lion. I dont think those who say they have seen them are liars. I think the vast majority of them saw an animal, and their brain triggered: "wholly crap that was a mountain lion".
I mean, people actually think they have seen bigfoot. Believe it 1000%. Mountain lions are way more believable than sasquatch sightings.
Again, I dont think people that "see" these things are lying. I'm certain they believe it 100%. But when I've had "life long hunters" show me that pic of the "Webster mountain lion" in Dr Williams post and swear that's proof... yeah, no, I dont really trust most of the sightings. I also consider wearing orange during archery season and tooting a blow horn exiting the woods for safety :)
Personal example. 2 years ago, I'm in my stand, and a guy "stalks" past with a crossbow. I didnt see him circle back, so wondered where he went. As light's fading (this was in MA - so 30' after sunset is legal) in some bushy baby white pines, I see a shape, just standing there. For 10' I'm convinced it was the hunter, and that he was wearing a ghillie suit and staring at me. I wave. Nothing. I actually said hello, nothing. Getting more convinced this is a guy, and starting to feel weird, I climb down and walk over. It was a shadow that had formed in the pines, and my mind turned it into a hunter in a ghille suit. I'd been 100% sure it was a guy, and gotten pretty weird given his behavior. I think the same thing happens to folks with Lions. They see a bobcat in the distance or across a field or what not, or a house cat etc, and in that moment for whatever reason the brain says: "Lion" and they dont get the relief I did of verification... They go on thinking they saw a lion and the "reality" in their head grows and becomes more concrete.
They are not lying. but I think most of them are wrong... Just a few, I'd say lucky ones, actually have seen a lion in New England.
I don't think the lack of "proof" means anything. I hunted elk a few time in Montana with an outfitter who specialized in mountain lion hunting. These are guys that make their living being in the woods year round in an area with a healthy population of lions and know as much as anyone about their habits.
I think he said that in his entire life of being in the woods he had only seen lions a handful of times himself (when not hunting them). That surprised the heck out of me, but he said they are that elusive and hard to spot even if you have experience and know what you are looking for. There is a reason that even in areas with strong populations the only way to hunt them is with a pack of dogs. You can't track them, you can't spot and stalk or set up in a blind. You need dogs to route them out.
One killed on the road is the only proof I need that there are others.
"Yet people are hanging on despite zero tracks, zero scats, zero hair, zero photographs, zero confirmed predation of livestock, and zero roadkills. This of course excludes the one that was killed on the Parkway in Milford. "
We have one dead lion, 2011. You can exclude it, but it happened, and it's evidence. More Evidence: Scat found in Quabbin in April 1997, was confirmed by DNA Analysis to be from a Mountain Lion. Also found was a cached beaver. Another report: March 4, 2011, Steve Ward, a DCR forester, discovered and photographed a track trail in the snow crossing a frozen cove near the southwestern end of Quabbin Reservoir. The tracks were fresh and the photos, which were of excellent quality, were examined in great detail by professional tracking experts from Massachusetts, Virginia, Vermont, and Wyoming. These experienced trackers unanimously confirmed that the tracks were made by a Mountain Lion.
At the link is a story of a sighting in Maine by two people and the track they cast from where it crossed the road: https://bangordailynews.com/2017/12/07/outdoors/corinna-couple-share-what-they-say-is-a-cast-of-a-mountain-lion-track-made-years-ago-in-northern-maine/
Of course if you exclude all evidence, then there is Zero Evidence. Convenient! You must work for the government.
And how many times have biologists declared an animal extinct, only to have someone find them still living. Absolutes are tough to prove either way. I agree with Doc in that I'd like to see proof of a lion in CT, but I also THINK that it's possible someone saw one that was just passing through.
1220. The one in the Quabbin in 2011 was the same one that was hit in CT. We have only evidence of one lion in CT, there is no other credible evidence of others. But Ace makes a good point. Personally, I have never seen a moose in CT. I have never had moose on my game cameras. I have, however, seen photographs of them on MDC land and have seen their droppings and bark stripping of trees in Tunxis State Forest. And I know a couple guys who have found shed moose antlers. So I do have evidence of them so I know we have them in CT, even though I have never seen one in CT. But I have not seen a lion in CT and know of no one who can provide me credible evidence either.
There were trail cam pics of moose posted that I personally saw from union ct again doc u will always call bs even if there is proof it’s why I don’t chime in on ur conversations u just think ur always right. Here is reality ur not
This is a pretty awesome article on Mt Lions in New England from Mass Wildlife magazine maybe 2-3 years ago. Great magazine in general, this was a really cool article and fits this discussion really well.
Do you guys who keep thinking that mountain lions are actually living on our state understand how frickin big they are? Any idea? They are as big or bigger than an adult deer and they can eat a deer a week.....every week.
Just like the guys that say they saw a coyote that "probably weighed 75lbs"...when in reality, they aren't more than 35-40lbs. Until you actually understand how big a mountain lion is, you will start to understand that even credible people have no idea what they saw.....like when my neighbor says he knows mountain lions are around our house. I just laugh at him and say "yeah Bigfoot too, and grizzlies".
I have seen Moose in CT. Additionally I saw the Moose that was hit by a car on I-95 in Westbrook many years ago. Moose don't live around there but one showed up and was promptly dispatched. Similar to that Lion on the merritt. What makes the concept of Lions inhabiting CT so preposterous is the fact that they are not an animal that will inhabit an area measured in acres. They are an animal that measures their home in miles, they are constantly traveling within their range. given that fact, it seems very difficult to imagine that they can travel such large areas so regularly and sightings, road kills, and tangible evidence is slim to none. When I say slim, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that at least one persons account of sighting one may have merit.
Every 3 or 4 years we have a winter with a lot of snow and the deer yard up like they do up north,I’ve seen as many as 30 to 40 deer at a time . It seems to me if there were mt lions around that’s where they’d be . I’ve seen plenty of coyote tracks in these areas and a few kills, but no mt lion tracks.
Heartshot. There are moose in CT. I am sure guys have them on their trail cameras. I have not, but my point is that I have seen and been shown evidence they are in CT without having actually seen one in CT. I have not seen a lion in CT and have heard and read lots of stories of sightings from lots of different people, but we have only been shown evidence of one. If they are living amongst us, they most float above the ground and not eat, not shed, not poop, not get hit by cars, and know how to avoid trail cameras and cell phones. In this case, I know I am right as I am asking people to prove me wrong with evidence beyond just words and they cannot.
Will. That is a great summary and applicable here in CT as well and echoes what everyone is posting here. He suggests that the tracks from the Quabbin in 2011 were that of the lion killed here in CT only months later. Unfortunately, he got the date wrong on page 17 of when the lion was killed. It was June 11, 2011 not 2012 as printed. So that might cause some more confusion and conspiracy.
Here is the link to the wallaby that was hit by a car on Route 66. Do guys think we have a breeding population of wallabies in CT? Probably not. So if we have the same amount of evidence for a wallaby population as we do a mountain lion population in CT (a single roadkilled individual of each), how do we logically conclude that that is evidence of a breeding population of one species but not the other? Emotion, that’s how. It clouds logic.
Yes Ace. The sighting "data" on that Fish and Wildlife Service blog were so credible that they declared eastern cougars extinct in 2011 and delisted them last week. What I see in that link are lots of words. What I don't see are photos or links to verifiable evidence. Just words.
Here are a couple moose pictures a friend and MONSTER bow hunter (and Bowsite lurker) got on his game camera in northern CT. He says they were running off the buck he was targeting.
There has been plenty of pictures posted here of moose over the years ace, not one legitimate pic of a lion. And I don't see anyone here calling anyone a liar, just saying that people tend to think they are seeing something they are not. I tend to strongly agree with that based on a lot of personal experiences of "credible" people telling me they saw I lion. I'v heard some really ridiculous stuff from plenty of "credible" sources. It's borderline conspiracy theory IMO.
Someone can be mistaken about this without being a liar. I certainly don't think the people I have talked to that have told me they have seen a lion or tracks or any other evidence are lying, I just think they are mistaken. Further investigation of tangible evidence has in all cases proven they were mistaken.
"The lion shows up on Davis Air film. Check it out."
Anyone care to elaborate on that?
A healthy lion will eat about a deer a week... Apart from all of those trail cam pics that aren't getting taken and tracks & scat that aren't being found, you'd think that somebody would stumble across a kill now and again....
It's not that I don't believe that it's possible for there to be a few in the state, it's just that I haven't seen any convincing evidence of one since the one that got road-killed....
Ace - is that dead one the one that got run over in 11? Is the theory that the one in the pic - which I cant identify as a cat due to my screen - it's all pixely - is the one that got run over a few days later (IE, the dead one in the picture)?
That's the "accepted theory" Will. The cat was said to have been seen in Greenwich for several weeks after being seen in Lake George, NY (DNA confirmed); after walking through MN, WI and MI and being photographed on game cams in WI and MI (DNA from scat and hair I believe) after coming from "A population in the Black Hills of SD". Also, this same cat is said to have been in the Quabbin leaving tracks between when he was in Upstate NY and Greenwich, before he went to Milford and got killed.
12:13. Big D. I do not have the authority to arrest anybody. If you are concerned about being arrested, just take a photo. That will suffice as proof, as long as you can take us to the spot the image was taken to verify that it is in fact in CT.
Ace. Yes. We have established there was a lion in CT and that it was photographed and verified in Greenwich days before it was hit and killed in Milford (http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?Q=483778). It is not proof of a resident population, just a single lion that was determined to be from SD. Grizz’s point was that if there were resident lions in CT, they would appear on people’s trail cameras and posted here. Just like images of bears and moose and bobcats. We know we have those in CT. I have posted trail camera images of all three.
12:45. We had a lone, single lion in CT and it was seen, photographed, and verified in Greenwich and a couple days later, was verified in Milford. That same lion was verified 5 times in 3 other states using DNA from fecal or hair samples and was caught on 3 different trail cameras in Wisconsin and one in Michigan and presumably left confirmed tracks in the Quabbin in MA. That’s a lot of evidence for a single lion. So do the lions that you claim we now have in CT not poop? How are they so good at evading being photographed? Why are there no verifiable data? Because they are not here that’s why. If you do not have a trail cam photo, I will settle for a track, a poop, a hair sample, a carcass, or even a cell phone camera image.
Before you jump on the “arrogance” train again, why don’t you reread what I wrote above. I didn’t say he had to take ME to the spot he SAW the cat, I said if he could take “us” to the spot the “image” was taken. Careful Ace, your conspiracy is showing again.
I still dont understand that if a mountian lions range can be up to 370sq mls..how /why would it travel 1600mls to ct.. food,? Ass? To see whats on the other side? Wheres henry lee when you need him..
Yes, I meant pics posted here from trail cams. Not a picture of the famous one dead in the road. I should have been more clear. No one is denying that one.
I find it interesting that trail cam pics of lions out west show up on these forums claimed to be from CT then quickly debunked. Seems to happen a lot, I recall quite a few. Why is that? What is the motivation to try and fake that? No wonder people start to question claims when there are so many that are only attempts to deceive?
Jeez Ace. I suggested he take a picture if he was worried he was going to be arrested for killing one. And if he gets an image of a lion in the woods of CT, there are going to be officials who will want to verify where the image was taken. How is that “arrogant?” That is verifying the evidence beyond “I know someone who saw one.”
You are right there is no evidence to verify that it was the same one in Greenwich and the Quabbin. But let us work backwards on the timeline. Mountain lion confirmed dead on the Wilbur Cross June 11, 2011. A mountain lion was seen and confirmed in Greenwich on June 5, 2011. Mountain lion tracks were confirmed in the Quabbin in March 2011. Connecticut officials believe the Greenwich lion was the same one killed in Milford and Massachusetts officials believe the same of theirs. If we assume that there were 3 different lions, which they likely were not, then there should be 2 more out there leaving sign. So in 4 months in 2011, there were three confirmed pieces of evidence left by a mountain lion in adjoining states, one of which was a carcass. Since that one lion got dead in Milford, there has been no confirmed evidence of a track, a photo, poop, hair, roadkill, nothing. One could logically deduce that all three confirmed sightings were the same animal, particularly after all the evidence compiled on it in its travels through NY, MI, WI, and MN. They think he started out from SD and continued to look for a mate, which are few and far between in the east.
And here is a link to the paper Jason Hawley and Paul Rego wrote about that dispersing lion: https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/97/5/1435/2219047 Click on the PDF link to see the paper
What's arrogant is that you believe that if you, or another Biologist, don't endorse something, then it isn't true. Your "Experts" were certain that the dead Milford Cat was a released or escaped Pet, until it wasn't.
I never once claimed that there are Mountain Lions living in CT. I haven't seen one. But I am open to the fact that when credible people claim to see something I have not seen, or that I cannot verify, they might be telling the truth. I'm old enough to remember being told by employees of Game Departments of northeastern states, that "there are no coyotes around here, must be a feral dog". Then we heard the same thing about Bears. ("Bears in NJ? There isn't the habitat to support them") Next, it was "No Mountain Lions are in CT". And when I ask "why then are they mentioned several times in the Hunting and Trapping Regs" if you are so sure there are none? No answer. When someone does claim to see one, and they are a cop or a person with a good reputation we might hear: "escaped pet". Oops, suddenly a dead one shows up in CT, and now the same experts are using that one cat to explain sightings all over the place, and telling us, that was it, one and done. Forgive my snickering, I'll try to control myself until another body shows up.
Perhaps the "experts" should be more open-minded, and maybe they should admit that they don't know it all. Then when they are proven wrong, they won't look so foolish.
No one disputes there was one here. We have that evidence. And it was logical to conclude it was an escaped pet initially. That was later determined and published not to be the case. If there are credible sightings from credible people, why is there no credible evidence beyond that one roadkill?
The same can be said for Bigfoot, they have shows searching for it, but with all the game camera's, and hunters and hikers, no real credible reports. There are those who want to believe in such things. At least with the mountain lion, there was one confirmed in Connecticut. The one that traveled great distances thru many states left behind few signs and photos. But credible evidence was gathered.
He left behind enough tangible evidence that DNA could be matched up and proven where he originated from and that it was the same lion. That's more than can be said about all the sightings combined in CT. It amazes me that one lion can leave behind enough DNA that it can be tracked for over a thousand miles yet we can't find a sliver of DNA to validate all the sightings in CT.
Crow. Absolutely. If one cat made it here, more will eventually. This was just an incredibly anomalous event. But to suggest they have been here all along with no evidence beyond "I know a guy who saw one" is simply not possible.
I'm heading out for shed hike today, I'll bring back pictures of a lion at the very least, but I plan on catching one and throw in the back of the truck, then release him. Should be back in about an hour with it.
Seems to me if 1 lion could travel and be killed here, than others could travel here and return home intact. So imo, aces sources of people sighting them are legit, but doesn't prove a sustainable population. I'm with the doc. If there was a sustained lion population, even just barely , there would be ALOT more sign. Looks like EVERYONE is RIGHT here. Haha
Just to be fair, I don't think anyone here has made the claim of a sustained population. Just that there is a possibility one can wander in from afar, which has been proven to happen at least once in recent times. Some people seem to believe it happens more often that others. What seems to be the controversy here is unconfirmed sightings happening with some regularity and weather someone wants to believe them or question them.
Just got back, no sheds found, but did come across a lion in her den with twin kits. There was approximately 8 deer carcasses in the area so looks like they're doing fine. Didn't want to take mom away from the kits so left her alone. Post pics shortly
My wife claims to have seen a lion and my lawn guy (who is an avid hunter) also claims to have seen one. I, however, have yet to see any thing resembling a mountain lion, mountain lion tracks or a trail cam photo of one. With all the trail cameras out there, you would assume that someone would have had a photo of one by now. There was a notice on the weather channel recently which said that the Eastern Cougar has recently been declared extinct and now states have the option of re introducing cougars. This could get interesting.
So the 2 confirmations in CT are presumably that photo from Greenwich and the carcass in Milford days later. We all agree that that is the same cat. So where are the confirmations for all the other “credible” sightings?
I assume the other sightings are the others in the New England area. The point I take from this is that cats roam over a wide area, so it's not impossible for someone in CT to see one today, tomorrow, or last week. Do they live here? No.
10:07. If they wander through here but don't live here, where do they live? Those sightings Ace posted are nationwide outside the cougar established western range. The image attached is for New England from the same site. Not sure how reliable the data are as they have 2 confirmations in FF County and none in Milford where we all know the animal was hit and killed.
If you click the info on those 2 CT sightings, they are indeed the Greenwich photo on 6/5/11 and the carcass in NH County in 6/11/11. Not sure why they are not properly georeferenced...
12:37. Ace. Not sure I follow. Those are 952 pieces of evidence from states east of the Rocky Mountains. Not sure what you are talking about with the 11 trail camera pictures and 1 roadkill. The very table you posted says there are 429 photos and 181 carcasses documented. For a second, I thought the site had some credibility regarding “confirmed” sightings. And they got the 2 confirmed sightings in CT correct as well as the tracks in the Quabbin in that same year, all likely from the same animal. The site does say “Note: it is possible that some of the confirmations could represent the same animal at different times and locations.” They also got the confirmed scat sample in MA from 1997 from a cat whose origin was unknown (see link for confirmed MA sightings). But the 3rd “confirmed” sighting in MA, #881 from Worcester County on 6/28/2016 was that image of the house cat in the field that I already shared, but will share again here. Give me a break. Someone takes a picture of a housecat in a field and that is a “confirmed” mountain lion sighting? Seriously?
Ace - What else would you expect from someone described as clarevoant and a fraud; anyone that can manufacture 91 deer in a 2 square mile survey report and then misplace 73 of the deer "on film", should be believed. Question is..... when will we see the conclusive proof of those missing 73 deer on the film ?
3:13. Got it. I see now. One road-killed cougar east of the Rockies. Right. Boy, is that shoddy information or what. In 2017 alone, 23 Florida panthers were roadkilled. See link. And that was just in one year.
And seriously, only 11 trail camera photos? Give me a break. In this link alone from Missouri Department of Conservation they confirmed mountain lions in 48 different game camera photos and had 4 roadkills since 1994, well outside the documented range of lions and that’s one state east of the Rockies! I think the Cougar Network has some bad data metrics, need to check on things, and clearly need more funding… https://nature.mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/report-wildlife-sightings/mountain-lion-reports/confirmed-mountain-lion-reports
Why is it me now pointing out increased mountain lion sightings to you? The list also says “1 mortality?” Are the reported 1 roadkill, 24 harvested, and 181 carcasses not dead too? These numbers stink and were compiled by a rookie. 11 trail camera photos, come on. You know there were 5 trail camera photos alone of the one lion that was killed on the Parkway…. You guys gotta think instead of blindly believing something just because it is on the Internet.
Did doc just call Paul Rego a Rookie? I wonder, if an expert like say a Tick Doctor saw one, I mean really got a good look, and reported it ... would anyone believe him? Would that be "proof"? Of course, credibility would come into question, as well as past propensity to, shall we say fudge numbers.
Ace. Since 1994, the state of Missouri has had 4 times as many confirmed roadkills and over 4 times the number of confirmed trail camera images of lions than the Cougar Network has reported in all states east of the Rockies. That is terrible reporting by the Cougar Network and took me one Google search to undo. I have a lot of respect for Rego, both for what he does for CT furbearers and for his dealings with hysteria like this from the CT public. Rego works for CT DEEP, not the Cougar Network. The Cougar Network's data reporting stinks.
Doc....not sure where you clicked on the MA 3...but when I clicked I saw 1996 scat, 2011 tracks, and 2016 DNA. the 2016 was not the house cat photo, it was the horse attack incident where the owner sent samples off to 2 labs.
Guys, guys, guys. You could place 6 dead cats in front of Doc and he would argue that it doesn't mean a thing. Why? Because he didn't put the 6 dead cats there. He's the only expert when it comes to, well,.......whatever it is you're talking about. Like Great Mountain Forest having so many deer that they're begging for hunters to help them reduce the herd! Except the caretaker said "Whoever said that doesn't know what they're talking about." That one lie alone told me who I was dealing with. It's like dealing with Hillary and Dems.
Ace. There are 2 confirmed sightings in CT, Greenwich and Milford in 2011. Rego did his job for CT by properly but reporting to the Network, obviously he is not responsible for the way they compile their data for the rest of the country which stinks, Curious why the NH County confirmation is listed as carcass and not roadkill....
Hickstick. The scat in MA was in 1997 not 96. The tracks were in March 2011. MA Fish and Game acknowledges both. The 2016 sighting was 6/28/2016. If you look at the cat photo in the T&G, it's dated 6/30/2016. I assumed that was it, but you are right it says DNA. Looks like the horse owner is saying DNA matches puma but MA Fish and Game doesn't buy it. See link.
I'm not going to dive into the "network..."o idea about This is all getting to confusing for my simple brain. No idea, on the date, but, I know that in early summer or late spring of 16, there was an incident where a horse was raked across the front shoulder (I saw the pictures on the lady's face book page) leaving a pretty nasty set of wounds. MDFW went out, and felt the injury was due to the gate of the paddock and OR a bear.
However, the lady didn't believe that, so she paid to have some blood and "tissue" she pulled off her paddock gate, and sent it to two different labs. I think one was U Arizona and the other was some place in the south east - I dont remember exactly. Anyway, both came back as 100% mountain lion.
What is weird in this though. I asked a buddy who works for MDFW about it right after I heard about it (the incident was in my home town, where everyone knows or knows of everyone) via the local "gossip" line. He said once MDFW left her place, she never spoke to them again - they had never seen the DNA data.
So... No idea what to make of that - and no idea if MDFW has now seen the data. No clue.
Yes Ace. Once again, we all agree that there was a dead lion in CT in 2011. There has been no conclusive proof of any other one in over 100 years, despite the credibility of the guys and gals who claim to have seen one. If you know they are here, show us proof of another one between January 1918 - June 4, 2011 and June 12, 2011 - present day. (We know there was one here in the week I omitted.)
Will. We had a horse killed by something in my town in CT back in August. The owner admitted to seeing coyotes in the paddock multiple times so the reasonable culprit, a mountain lion. DEP came and confirmed the attack was canine in nature. Yet, the crazy horse ladies still insist it was a rouge mountain lion. Buh.
Yes Doc - Once again, we all agree that there were 18 deer on the two 1 square mile ITM test sites in Redding, CT, 1/15/2015, (Davis IR film). There has been no conclusive proof of the other 73 deer the CAES are claiming over the last 3 years, despite the credibility of the guys and gals of the CAES who claim to have seen them. If you know they are here, show us proof of the other 73 deer between 1/15/2015 and 1/15/2018 or present day. (We know there were 18 deer on the Davis Aviation IR film; the film you claim to have never reviewed.)............Your clairvoyance ability is amazing.
"Guys, guys, guys. You could place 6 dead cats in front of Doc and he would argue that it doesn't mean a thing. "
"Six!!!! Bob, put one dead CT mountain lion in front of me. Prove me wrong. "
"Not the Milford dead mountain lion though Bob, that one doesn't count! "
"Yes Ace. Once again, we all agree that there was a dead lion in CT in 2011. There has been no conclusive proof of any other one in over 100 years,"
Was the Milford Mountain Lion not 1 dead lion? Someone is still math challenged I see. Here is a little quiz:, If another dead Mountain Lion is found, how many total dead Mountain Lions will that be? Hint: No correction factor is required.
10:09. Round and around we go Ace. If there are credible sightings by credible people, aside from the Milford lion we all agree on, where is the proof?
"Pictures, you want pictures? Cats, (multiple) were seen on the bank of the Housatonic River by a fly fisherman. He told some people what he saw and was not believed, was told that he should have taken a picture. He saw them again, took a picture that time, showed it to a DEP Employee, who said "There is no proof that picture was taken in CT"."
Where are these pictures? Can you post them here for us to see the multiple cats and determine where they were taken for ourselves? Give us some proof of the lions living amongst us that you so claim. We all know we have had 1 in the past 100 years. Where's the proof of all the others?
12:35. You are welcome Crow. But one road-killed cat does not “prove” they have been living here among us undetected for 100 years as many want to believe. It proves that they are dispersing eastward from their current western range and one or two may show up in anomalous places periodically, leaving a lot of documented evidence along the way. That’s all. We had a photograph and a carcass, both documented, and reported to the Cougar Network. That is the only evidence we have had in a while. And if DEEP is hiding evidence of other lion sightings as some want to believe, why would they outwardly confirm these data?
Guys hold on just a minute. Here's is a much bigger mystery to the mountain lion debacle. How in the world did this take place and never once saw war hero Dick Blumenthal on at least one TV station blaming the republicans ? defies all odds!
Ha - that's funny right there. Then again, with all the wild lands set to be strip mined, fracked and drilled as protections are stripped, perhaps that's forcing the lions east and we soon will have a booming population - maybe grizzly's too... ;) he he he :)
(Wow - this may be the greatest pot stirring post ever :)... So I provide a good link for fun and education on this very subject - pot stirring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Uy_iRjAlw
I have seen many. I saw one while I was Elk Hunting in Oregon once. I have done a lot of lion hunting with hounds, I have great video footage on 8mm tapes . I have one tape where I climbed up in a juniper tree with the lion.
BB. To be clear, you were in mountain lion country, saw a mountain lion, and got it on video? Cool. I'd argue that CT is not mountain lion country, the vast majority of sightings aren't lions, and that's why no one has gotten one on video, but that's just me...
Doc, I agree 100%. My comment was strictly in response to SWK’s question which seemed mostly generic in nature and not specific to any particular geographic area, at least that was my take
The parkway lion was from South Dakota, not North Dakota. The one Bob posted is at Cabela's I'm guessing. You can't tell the difference by looking at them, only genetically. Florida panthers are a genetically isolated population now considered an endangered subspecies of cougars, Puma concolor coryi. Eastern cougars too are considered a separate, and now extinct, subspecies, Puma concolor couguar. Makes sense that officials would first assume the lion on the Parkway was a pet cause who would have suspected it migrated 2000 miles, but after genetic testing, that was the case.
Yup. They were worried about inbreeding. They are still a genetically isolated mountain lion population that are diverging from those lions in their remnant range, despite the introduction of the few TX cats.
Are these everyday run of the mill cougars or milf cougars, id like to get in on that..naah second thought,at my age that would put them at least in their 70's..aint a scratch im willing to itch..blaaah..
Dr Williams, I may be wrong, but, I've been told (or read - or both) that western Mt Lions faces are concave (bridge of nose in a little) while Easter Mt Lions were convex. I dont know for sure that's true... I know I've read it some places and been told it by a few folks though.
Wasn't aware of that Will. Seems there are limited sample sizes of eastern cougars with which to detect those differences. In researching this, I did come across this NYT article that says there is no difference genetically. This is always debatable, but interesting nonetheless.
Feb. 19 (UPI) -- A Wisconsin resident's security camera captured the moment a wandering mountain lion walked up to their home and looked in through a window.
The video, recorded by a home security camera in Brookfield, shows the cougar walk up to the house and rest its front paws on the window ledge while peering into the home.
The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources confirmed a mountain lion sighing was recorded Saturday in Brookfield, and the city's police department said officers responded on that day to a report of the big cat sitting under a tree in a resident's back yard.
Police and DNR agents said the cougar appeared passive, but they were unable to capture or kill it due to the proximity of homes and thick brush.
Local residents were informed of the cougar's presence and DNR officers arrived the following day to try to capture the animal, but it left the area in a southeasterly direction and investigators lost the trail.
Officials estimated the cougar was about 1 1/2 years old and weighed about 50 pounds.
Little brighter pic not sure why the first is so dark. I guess the one sighted a few weeks ago was a Mt Lion and the people who saw it were right. Hmmmmm must be the same one from Wisconsin.
I contacted her to see if she will allow me to put some trail cams out on her property. Maybe it’s still in the area. Who knows it’s worth a shot. It’s about 1 mile from one of my other spots that i already have cams.
Just spoke with her, I’ll be putting a few cams out this weekend supposedly it has been spotted by many people in the neighborhood including her daughter who is a veterinarian who deals with wild animals and she said it definitely is not a bobcat.
Hope you get a pic Silverado. I'm going to be the first guy, er, A-Hole, to say I dont buy it. It will be cool if I'm wrong, pretty amazing if that's another one. First thing I thought looking at the pic was that the ground and vegetation I saw did not look like New England, looks like out west.
The daughter should know what she's seeing... and why in the world would someone put a bogus pic of what "they saw" on facebook... But that pic just doesnt look like the north east to me.
I'm clearly the guy that causes people not to report these things :), Ha!
I’m hoping to get concrete evidence that Doc so clearly wants. Time stamp and all. I believe she is getting me permission to access several properties to setup cams since quite a few people in the area have seen it. Also from what she is saying do not be surprised if you hear that it has been stuck by a vehicle on the Merritt. From what I was told there were sightings of it on both sides of the Merritt parkway in that area. One area is roughly a 50+ acre swamp. I’m not sure if that is their preferred habitat or not but i know that there are a ton of deer in the area so it may have setup on a prime food source.
I hope you get proof. I really do. The picture you posted appears to be yet another trail camera image from out west that someone says was from CT. If it's playing Frogger on the Parkway, it should be dead by now.
And it was lifted, from all places, from the Wikipedia page on cougars. See link and scroll down. I am guessing this one is safe from Parkway traffic as this image is from Arizona in 2011.
We shall see doc. I just spoke with her again, her and her neighbors are in fear to walk there dogs there at night. So something is in the area, or at least was. I’m not saying multiples or it’s here to stay permanently it is most likely one that’s passing through. Same as the one killed in Milford.
Good luck. Let's just say based on the lack of evidence and what I've read on FB, I remain skeptical. A bunch of Fairfield County soccer moms being scared of walking their dogs at night due to something they read on FB is hardly convincing evidence. I'll eat crow if you or anyone else can provide irrefutable proof. A few posts back, that trail camera picture was taken in Norwalk. That was quickly put to rest and we now know it's from AZ 7 years ago.
Arlene, the one who posted the image from Wikipedia, who is supposed to be in the know, is referring to them as "mountain lions cougars." Not sure what that's supposed to be.....
My first thought when I saw that pic was I can’t figure where in Norwalk looks so much like Sonoran desert (and I spent a week there a few years back not getting a Coues deer). My next thought was in between the rain and snow and these experts seeing where the cat was walking how is there no pic of a paw print in mud or snow next to a dollar bill, soda can, etc. I saw fresh feline prints nearly the size of my hand by the watering holes in the Sonoran desert where I was hunting. That will keep you on high alert for a while. Don’t get how all the ghost cats here seem not to leave such tracks.
Only time will tell or not. As you stated, mt lions cover vast distances so as far as we know one could have been there and is now in Massachusetts for all we know, or it’s still local. I’ll give it my best put some trail cams around and leave them for a few weeks. See if i get any pics. I know it’s a long shot.
True about one passing through. But with all the people with phones in the most densely populated area of the 4th most densely populated state in the US, you figure someone would get a photo or security camera footage of one instead of having to post an image of what they swear they saw from Wikipedia.
Perhaps I should rephrase my statement about eating crow.....
I’m curious doc how many people got trail cam pics,or surveillance photos, of the one killed in Milford?? Would you have argued that it didn’t exist until there was physical proof?
10:11. That lion was seen, verified, photographed, and scat sampled in Greenwich on June 5, 2011 about a week before it was killed in Milford on June 11th. Ace reported this earlier in the thread. I guess I have made my point many times on the Milford cat; it was photographed by trail camera 4 times in 2 states (MI and WI) and was confirmed with DNA samples on 5 occasions in 3 states (MN, WI, and NY). The tracks found in the Quabbin in March 2011 are assumed to be from that cat and the confirmed Greenwich sighting and scat from June 5, 2011 as well. There were over a dozen verified pieces of conclusive data on this one cat as it made its way over 2,000 miles to CT where it presented to us its carcass as further conclusive proof. If there was in fact a mountain lion in the City of Norwalk, CT of all places, there would be some kind of evidence beyond a reposted Wikipedia image.
I feel better about my observational skills now that I see the pic was from out west. Phew - I'm not the AHole... Well, maybe I am. I dont know.
Go nuts on the cam's silverado - would be AWESOME to actually "catch" one on film!
Crow - I thought it was knees :)
Bleydon brought up a good point. With people seeing this cat all over creation, how has no one snapped a pic of a paw print or something? I know it's possible another is on a walkabout... But after the uproar and number of hunters and other outdoor savvy or animal savvy folks I know (Not here, I'm talking back when it happened) who were convinced up and down that the "Webster mountain lion" (doc posted the pic above some place believe) was an actual lion and not a tabby... I tend to be skeptical.
Admittedly, I have to admit the walkabout animal could happen again, and a few folks I know that I trust have offered feedback suggesting they saw tracks or an animal... So maybe the walkabout thing happens more than we think. Could very well be the case.
Based on the study above, we will likely "catch" those animals enroute more and more often and see evidence.
"I’m curious doc how many people got trail cam pics,or surveillance photos, of the one killed in Milford?? Would you have argued that it didn’t exist until there was physical proof?"
Like Doc said, there was tangible evidence that the Merritt Parkway Lion existed. It didn't take long for him to arrive before sightings and evidence existed. He lasted here a week before he was killed? Trail cams should be telling, I have my doubts but I'm hoping you find one.
Off topic, sort of. Anyone have a trail cam pic of a CT moose? I had one run behind my car at a red light in Plainville about 5 years ago. I then found out with some digging that there is a resident population of roughly 200 of them in CT. I have seen one, confirmed that they are here, but have never seen one since or heard of them anywhere else. Have not come across a single other person in CT that has seen one here...well aside from the folks whose backyard that one got trapped in.
Dude, im really starting to think that these New Cannanites the daily rag is speaking to are sitting in their Baroque style mansions counting the piles of gold bullion..and with the Victorian laced curtians drawn ever so tight a golden ray of sunshine sneaks into the shaded room reflecting off the pile straight into the monicaled eye of said lords causing momentary blindness and madness like the world has never seen before......or i guess its like when they claimed the doo doo bird never existed until one was actually seen
