Interesting NPR article on hunting
Massachusetts
Good read on the decline in hunter numbers... https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/593001800/decline-in-hunters-threatens-how-u-s-pays-for-conservation?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20180320
Thanks for sharing, Will. I've been nerding out on this kind of stuff recently. The drop in hunter numbers across the country is certainly scary. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of American's think that conservation consists of entirely leaving wildlife alone, when in reality it takes massive funding and they would be even more surprised to learn where that funding comes from. And I understand that tapping into different sources of funding might be necessary, but I'm nervous about those against hunting gaining a stronger voice by providing part of the funding.
Include crossbow and we will see some new hunters in MA
Include crossbow and we will see some new hunters in MA
Not to start the debate from earlier in the year again GED... But when we discussed this, Pi challenged several of us "against" xbows being in the "regular" season (IE, not for those with a special permit or under / over a certain age) to find research. When looking, the massive majority of xbow hunters were not new. They were gun hunters taking up xbow, and to a far smaller %, were archery hunters trying the xbow. Actual "new" hunters in the other states who's stat's were reported by various folks were almost non existent with the xbow - it was just hunters normally focused elsewhere sliding over.
It could be different here, that's just what the numbers from I think Wis and Ohio and one or two other states seemed to suggest.
That said, retaining or increasing hunter numbers is a player for sure in our long term sustainability. And while I'm not a fan of the Xbow, if it could increase retention of hunters and maybe slide a few more in... that would be a major bonus for it.
The funding challenges are big. I wish the article spoke a bit more about the use of hunter / fishermen dollars to do things like restore NON game animals like the bald eagle, and to protect open spaces for everyone. HFSC, your point is a good one. It would be interesting if suddenly everyone buying hiking boots had to pay a bit more to contribute to managing wildlife - what pressures would change on state wildlife and fisheries folks. That's a unique challenge for sure!
Its more than just a weapon choice GED,.. there is a cultural shift. It scares me too. When we were kids after school we hit the woods,.. today they hit the Xbox.
The article did show strong support for wildlife conservation so lets hope...
Fortunately, my kids actively participate in all aspects of our shenanigans, from camping, shellfishing, Spearfishing, hunting, processing our harvests. My 5/yo doesn't like helping cape or quarter a deer, however, she does help pack/ freeze it all. That being said, when my teen talks about what we do, the majority of his acquaintances think "it's gross, and you guys shouldn't be doing that stuff when there's a grocery store"! He feels like a minority some days and Superior on others when the subject is brought up . He understands it's the ignorance of American Youth but also the parents not allowing the outdoor hunt/ gather experience that he and his sister get to be part of. It's ok to Airsoft another kid, but actually going Outdoor Grocery Shopping is barbaric ( said the baseball Mom at the field last fall) Glad I'm raising my kids the way I am. Proud Dadzilla here...
Eh, if it's one thing the average American doesn't give two shits about it's conservation. Sure, it's a nice thought to not hunt and leave those "poor animals alone." But no one bats an eye when 100 acres is clear cut in order to throw up a Target and a Mattress Warehouse, or a 200 unit apartment/condo development, "think of all the tax benefits it brings in." I understand what the NPR is saying; my point is that no one really cares. We're an incredible minority. Anytime I see discussion on this the only thing I can think of is a sound bite from GTAV "This is California! We have the worst carbon footprint in the country! Everyone goes around whining about the environment while they dump so many chemicals on their lawn it gives their neighbors birth defects!"
Ugh, this news coupled with what I've experienced from the DFW in the last few years and I'm starting to believe that there simply won't be ANY hunting in a generation or two. Jesus Crabst! Even the DFW lead biologist for deer population in the state is a young woman who is trying to wrap up a doctoral thesis (she's three years into it) on deer population...oh wait, she's not. Her whole thesis is about what makes hunters want to hunt and what reward mechanisms (psychologically) are in place that cause them to continue to do so. Her studies have nothing to do with actual deer health and populations. It's all bullshit, and if she's a sample of what the DFW is about; if the nation's wildlife organizations use anecdotal evidence to estimate animal health and populations, it's all a losing game. Their BS can't compete with the promise of tax boons! Our country is so money hungry that we're legalizing psychoactive drugs for more cash, it's all bad bad bad.
I'm sorry, I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. "If you're not flipping out, it's because you don't understand the problem." Teach your kids to hunt/fish/respect wildlife and nature, and to find their place in it. It's the only chance the wildlife actually has. Lord knows that state wildlife biologists, and law enforcement know jack crap about any of it. State biologists just tell scary stories to get more funding "ZONES 10 and 11 HAVE 80 DEER PER SQ. MILE!!!"
Yeah...that's their best right there. ...one of the many reasons I drink.
BB, the PS4 is like crack to my son. I get it, I like video games too but that boy needs to be regulated as do his friends! He generally gets a pass during this time of year, but as soon as it’s nice out that kid is kicked out of the house.
I’m with you, kids need to get off the games....and watching other people play video games on YouTube!! I mean, what the heck is up with that?!
Ok, I’m done. I’m off to go get my blind (or what’s left of it) out of the woods. I completely forgot about it. ...yeesh.
Sosso - is'nt David Stainbrook still the Deer Project leader? I think he's in a PhD program and not done... But I didnt know he moved on? Or is it a different person all together?
Totally with you guys.
First though, Qdriver - dont take this the wrong way, but I could kiss you after reading that :) ha ha ha! That was awesome. Get the kids out there and get em dirty!
My wife and I talk about how, sometimes, we feel like "the weird parents" because we do things like let are kids play in the dirt, take "chances" by climbing trees and running around in the woods. We encourage them to try to catch snakes and frogs and to search for bugs in our yard or the woods. We go fishing and mess with worms and touch "slimy fish". They have been deer hunting a couple times, (only 6, 7 on July 4 :)) fishing a ton. This year they will take up Turkey hunting - well, they will come along with us and try it out. They think eating wild animals is normal. They think owning guns is normal. Hunting, fishing, etc... Normal.
I'm convinced other parents feel like those sorts of things are crazy. As you guys said, there is a grocery store down the street. There are indoor play scapes. There are several town playgrounds. Why let your kids get dirty, rip their pants on thorns and encourage them to be IN the environment?
Because it's frigging awesome...
That's why :)
What gets me is this movement after the latest tragity about raising the age for long guns with no concern for the youth hunts across our country. Back on point maybe they should get a little out of the dog walkers , for not pick’n up there sh... on public land
David Stainbrook, if he’s in a PhD program, has his hands full even more then I realized—this on top of stocking the deer, taking them to their bunkers for the October lull, taking the leaves off the trees in November, playing romantic music to kick off the rut, leading them to their yards when it snows, and so forth. Quite a guy.
I'm going to disagree with you slightly, Sosso. I think most American's do care about conservation, but they have no idea how it actually works and they focus on only the iconic destinations with their conservation energy. As you mentioned, displace an entire herd of deer by knocking down a 100 acre woodlot and no one bat's an eye, but mention selling a dozen grizzly tags in The Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem and people will lose their damn minds. The National Wild Turkey Federations states that we are losing animal habitat at a rate of 6,000 acres a day. None of that is in the iconic locations you always hear people fighting about. It's slowly being chipped away through the sales of public and private land across the country for agricultural and urban development. Somehow we've got educate the general public on the inner workings of conservation in America and get people to focus on saving the habitat, becuase as we all know, development is the greatest threat to our wildlife, not hunting, which is actually the only thing saving the habitat. But how do we show others what we already know?
That was an interesting article, hadn’t really thought about it. Anybody know where Game Warden pay comes from? Probably from general taxes, but if it was from lisence fees that would be a hoot. Because those game wardens deal with a whole lot more than just hunting and fishing. Lost hikers, four-wheelers, etc.
HFSC - that right there is a great point RE loss or wildspaces. Sort of ironic that folks think "conservation" or "green" and they think of Sierra Club, Audubon, Wilderness Society etc... They dont think of their states Department of Fish and Wildlife (or whatever it's called in various states). And that's to bad, because if you factor in all the land which is protected by state dfw's across the land, there can't be a bigger or more impactful conservation group. And "We" pay for that. Factor in stuff like Pittman Robertson and take it national - amazing how powerful "we" have been at improving game AND nongame species populations and conserving wild lands.
For a shrinking group, "we" have built on the work of guys like Leupold and really spear headed modern conservation.
Some how, hunters have externally fallen into the cracks while non hunting groups who do good work in their own right, but on smaller scales, seem to have done far better telling folks what they do.
Makes you wonder if it's the difference of private v public groups. State agencies cant really pitch what they do seeking donations... But that's the mission of, say, sierra group. Interesting to ponder how a group like MDFW could do things.
Seems like these idea's could tie in well with the MA Bowhunters Association thread. If the state doesn't have the resources to promote itself, maybe a group like the association could or already does help pick up some of the slack.
Will, it may be Stainbrook. I'm used to interacting with Dave Wattles (Black Bear and Furbearer Biologist). Stainbrook has a young biologist working under him. I don't know here name but she's been around for a little over three seasons now. She's the one responsible for deer population estimates (more recently notable the deer estimates in the Blue Hills) in MA. For the life of me I can't remember her name. I just remember speaking with her twice and on both occasions she was emphatic about understanding what REALLY drives hunters to hunt, it's the purpose of her whole PHD thesis. I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't trust the DFW to do a good job. I know the deer estimates are doctored before they hit the public for a bigger impact. I understand the reasoning, to get people to react to population issues, but when you have such a little amount of public attention in the first place, you HAVE TO BE honest and forthright. If you're discredited, you're done.
As for people wanting to save wildlife (Huntfishcook), and the land included. I think people like to talk the talk, and that's about it. We'll have to agree to disagree. But to answer the question on telling the public what we already know, commercials. Commercials are the answer.
I'm not all doom and gloom on it though. We may find help from an unlikely ally, and it's completely due to circumstance; Millenials. Believe it or not, Millenials, even well educated college grads, are poor as hell. In addition to their financial woes (poor job market, huge amounts of inescapable college debt), their general spending habits have them shying away from box stores, strip malls, chain restaurants, etc. It's so bad that it's a general cause for concern among economists (yay?). With a high demand for online shopping, and cooking from home (yep), comes less of a demand for businesses that require real-estate. They're also putting off marriage, children, home buying, major life steps in general. So, in a generation, this could be some really good news for conservationists. -No I'm not kidding.
Link to Millenials article: You can also google "Millenials are killing...." and see a laundry list of industries that are going away due to the next generation.
If our deer biologist is doing her PhD on the psychology of why hunters hunt, we’re in trouble.
I would feel better if she would concentrate on appropriate management strategies to insure a healthy sustainable deer population.
Must be a democrat.
Ill sniff round with some friends that work at MDFW to see if I can figure out who she is.
I dont mind if her thesis is in a related area. Thesis's tend to be so narrowed into an area, while the educational process and supporting work create the skill set for more generalized work. For example, you get a PhD in entomology, but your thesis may be how reduced water in the american south east impacts spider reproduction. You still know more about butterflies than most people could ever imagine... Your focus in that study was something else.
If she has an understanding of why we hunt, at a strong level, her decisions relative to management may actually be more hunter centric and reflect the desires "we" have. IE, we like to see more deer :). By the time she's done, she's got 8-10 years (pending how long the PhD takes) of college + level schooling in bio/wildlife bio. That's a lot of understanding.
I've heard little things like that about Millenials Sosso - even that they are, surprisingly, taking up hunting or fishing as a way to supplement food (since they believe in Organic food more than older folks in many cases) and keep food cheap (man, they need to do some math!!!) via hunting and fishing... Even gardening is higher among them. Interesting to see how generations adapt to what they find before them...
Thanks Will for the explanation. Sounds like her focus may also work as an excuse to keep her in the woods. I forgot about the gardening. We have a lot of young engineers at work and I would say there is a fair number that have some kind of garden. Even the kids in apartments have planters galore and latticework on their patios filled with vegetables during the year. There are also a bunch who seem to be raising chickens...as if chickens is the new cool thing. Though I guess it makes some sort of sense; it all provides a massive break from technology, provides a defined reward for a clear effort...kinda like hunting. Thanks again.
So true Sosso.
The good news, I heard back from my buddy and David Stainbrook is the deer and moose project leader. Regrettably he did not give me any info on a woman who may work with David. So Ill shoot another text over :)
In a nut shell Mass put out a license plate to fund outdoor space for hunters and alike, they needed to delay its making for some time do to lack of involvement. Happy to say there booth at the big E posted a sign saying finally made it...
I also remember reading a news release when she was hired about 3yrs ago. Or was that the one who was hired and moved on shortly after?
I listened to the NPR piece and immediately thought of you guys. I think it is safe to assume we are all pretty much in the same age group; 30+ and most of us above 40? If you can pod cast the piece it is worth a listen. You can hear the despair in some of the voices when they are talking about this.
I remember buying some fishing gear when I was young and looking at the receipt wondering why there was an additional tax on it. I asked and when I was told that it went to fund wildlife I kind of felt a little proud.
there are so many points I want to make and my mind is swimming. I think it falls to the govt and the agenda they wish to pursue. not to turn this political but it really is.
I also think it is the people. most people want nice green places with abundant wildlife. so they look at hunting and think it is the opposite of that. so they are 'against' it. not realizing the effort we put into helping to maintain the environment. whether it be through taxes when we purchase products, fees for licenses, or through our voices during town hall meetings or even voting.
