big deer / little deer
Massachusetts
Contributors to this thread:
So I've been eating that big old doe I shot at the end of the season. I aged her teeth at 5.5 years old but it could have been older cause this was my first time aging. I will say, this is the worst eating deer I have ever had. Even the tenderloins were tough. I tried marinating, frying, grilling, etc. Its just really tough meat, Even the burger is tough. So this got me thinking... Next time I have to choose which deer to shoot, which one am I going to pick? I always pick the biggest one but that didn't work out well this time. I mean, I'm not putting a doe on the wall so what is the incentive to shoot the biggest one if its over 4.5 years old? Bragging rights? who cares about that though. I'd rather have delicious meat.
Would anyone else here shoot an average or smaller doe if they had to pick between a an old doe or a younger one? I wouldnt shoot a skipper so im talking in the 1.5-3.5 yr old range when i say younger doe.
I'm definitely going middle of the pack in the future. It was pointed out to me that killing the matriarch can cause the deer to leave the area. Basically you down big mamma, and the rest completely abandon the area, forget how to get back to it, and then develop new areas to eat and rest. If you down one of the younger ones, other than the matriarch, well she's old enough to do cost benefit so after a little bit, she's likely to come back, and lead the others back.
Also, I was going to recommend a Sous Vide. It's changed everything for venison.
BWB22... Not sure. I like the idea of shooting the alpha doe, because she's so dang good at busting me :). I guess, I'm spiteful :) ha!
That said, the only doe I've shot that was close to that old was a 4.5YO doe years ago and she was great to eat.
Oddly, the worst tasting and most rubbery was a 3 pointer I shot maybe 2 or 3 years ago. I dont know what that thing ate, but he tasted more gamey and rubbery than any deer I've ever had. Oddly, the 3.5YO buck I shot in the same spot this year, and a 2.5YO doe from the same spot a few years ago were probably the best I've ever eaten. So, no idea on that 1.5 and why he was not so tasty.
Was there a difference in how you handled her? warmer when hanging, colder? Shorter hang time or longer? Longer life before death (IE, gut shot)? Maybe those things factor in.
That said, people seem to always say that younger deer taste better. And I have to admit, I have shot a few skips over the years, and they were fork tender and amazing to eat. Likewise, outside that 1.5 from a few years ago the sub 2.5 year old deer I've shot were AWESOME eating.
So... Looking over my response... I have got nothing here. No pattern for you at all. Maybe some of the guys with more years (I think) than a lot of us have at this like, BrookTrout, BC, Jimbo, Fran, Muzzy, MRW etc could lay down some much more meaningful info here...
I can't claim to have much wild deer butchery experience, just the one I have killed so far, but I've butchered probably an uncountable number of farm raised animals. The few times we had toughness or flavor issues I was able to trace it back to a mistake in our handling process, not saying that's what happened with your doe, but that's where our issues developed. Also, my parents ordered a 1/2 pig from a local farm last year, the meat was beautiful with a great fat cap, but it was unbelievably tough. The only thing that would cause such a beautiful pig like that to be so tough is lack of aging. I'd bet that pig meat was frozen right in the middle of rigor. Do you or your butcher let the deer age before butchery and freezing?
A couple simple solutions that might help with that doe meat are smashing the hell out of it with a meat mallet, slicing it as thin as possible with a razor sharp knife against the grain, then cooking it like "stir fry" style or try braising in wines with higher acidity's to help denature the protein a bit as it cooks very slowly.
Nothing wrong with killing a yearling doe. Unless you only have one tag and you're trying to maximize meat. I feel like it would be really hard to tell the difference between a 2.5/3.5 yr old doe and a 5.5/6.5 yr old doe
So I can totally rule out the handling/butchering part. I do all my own butchering and I did this one the exact same as all others. It was real cold from trigger pull to freezer too, never got above 32. I didn't gut shoot her either and she died pretty quickly too.
I'm thinking Will might have shed some light here. Maybe its what she was eating? Wouldn't that just make the meat taste not as good though? Who knows. This meat tastes fine, its just super tough. Like nothing ive ever had before. I mean its even hard to cut with a regular knife. Its very odd. I agree moons in that it would likely be hard to tell a 3.5 from a 5.5 but I don't know what else ot contribute this to other than age since a lot of people say big old deer are tough meat. Maybe she was older than 5.5? This was the first one I ever aged so I could be wrong for sure. I'll tell ya one thing, she had a massive body for how much she weighed. Literally not a drop of fat on her anywhere. Another thing that makes me think she was really old. Giant head too. Like a really noticeably giant head on her. Now I really am thinking maybe she was older as I type this. Who knows. I should have kept the jaw.
I like the idea of hitting it with a mallet, much like how you tenderize chicken. I'm going to try that.
Great thread- firstdeer I ever shot (shotgun) was a Button Buck. Good thing because my family fell in love with venison!
Second deer (shotgun) was big 8 point seriously in rut. Trophy deer but meat was as tough as shoeleather. My kids and wife said this is not like the last one! Older deer I only keep straps whole, grind rest with beef chuck and everybody is happy!
I have nothing to base this on but I have also suspected how fast they die has something to do with toughness. I have always suspected a quick kill yields better meat than one that took hours to die.
I have had mixed experiences with deer meat toughness and flavor. Some of the best eating came from an older buck that took 4 arrows to kill. One tough and strong flavor deer was a young buck that was shot through the heart with the 50 cal. and died 50 yards away. ( he had a wound to his upper back missing a patch of skin) Another average tasting buck was dropped where he stood at fist light ( spine and heart shot). Some does have been great and some just good but not great.
What is it ? All things being equal, ( good shot and proper handling of the animal), I think it has to do with just how active/stressed they have been prior to being killed. An animal with very little fat reserve is stressed by something ( age / bad teeth or environmental ) Some Bucks may have been running hard for weeks before we shot em. Some older bucks seem to slog along and don't get worked up. Some places have a lot of disturbances from people, coyotes etc. Maybe it is also the food source but I will bet on stresses that an animal underwent in the year or weeks prior to the day killed.
Jaccarding ( punctures ) will help tenderize, then you could further add a Marinade with chemical tenderizing elements for several hours kept in fridge. I saw that salt ( course grain like sea salt) heavily applied and left at room temperature for an hour to two hours works well. (Rinse and pat dry then cook without added salt .)
To be honest, I’m a deer hunter. I’ve killed a few good bucks over the years but never because I targeted one particular big buck. I love bowhunting and I normally kill any legal deer if I have the tag. Not a lot of room to scout out here in the suburbs.
Diet is a cause of different tasting / texture in the meat. Friend goes to PA every year and brings back lots of venison. Corn fed venison!!! He used to say to me " here take this hind quarter and throw away what you killed up here ". I would laugh and say there isn't much of a difference. There is!!
Also what time of year was it. I seem to remember a big old doe that someone shot during muzzy season. Was that you? That doe was huge too. Big frame but not a lot of fat and meat. If it was you the deer could have been stressed and on a different diet of just browse. Big difference in diet and temperment can change things drastically
Older deer tend to be better for roasts and stew meat or sausage. Something you can slow cook and break down the fibers in the meat.
I shoot a deer every year behind a friends house that lives right next to the ocean. The deer will go down to the beach and snack on the seaweed that washes up on shore. I would assume for the salt in it. Venison never really tastes right from those deer. Family says it's great but I notice a slight difference in taste compared to others from different areas
I like to shoot a 1.5 year old deer each year. Or more. Nothing better to eat than an old buck or doe
DFA - that's interesting. My A spot the last 4 years or so has a bunch of McMansions against it. From what I'm told, many of the stay home mom's living in the area enjoy feeding the deer. So they dump bags of sunflower seeds - one bag for the birds in feeders, one on the ground for deer (and the neighborhood bear). Maybe that why most of those deer taste so good - sunflower seeds. Then again the gnarley tasting little buck was from there too, but that was November, he could have been from 4 miles away wandering through?
Proline's point has hit me before as well. I've noticed all but one of my archery deer have tasted good been pretty tender. But when guys gun shoot deer and give me meat, it seems generally a bit gamier or less tender.
I always pondered if I was seeing something that wasnt there, or, if the higher stress of gun season may be a factor... Anyone else notice that? maybe a clue there for BWB22...
Will , I would guess it is the rutting action and being pushed around by the invaders of the woods that is making later season deer less tender. Less fat reserve and far more physical activity by that time.
Early season deer and well fed deer are likely not as physically worn down which must translate to more and then less tasty as the season depletes the body.
Farm country deer are well fed and less stressed , I presume. That would likely be the difference in taste and tenderness.
There's always an old massive doe that falls to someone in our group in Ohio, and they've always been good to eat. Worst deer I've ever had was an old Nh buck my dad shot 3 years ago. It was no lie inedible. Tough as leather, and gamey like nothing you'd ever wish to eat. It all ended up become jerky. It was the only way it could be stomached.
big ol' bucks make great burger and sausage!
Sosso, what is this Soud Vide you speak of?
I want a deer that eats in a cranberry bog to go with turkey at thanksgiving. WILL TRAVEL!!!
B&M the deer taste no different than the foraging woods deer. 70% of my stands are located off bogs
Do deer eat cranberrys? No bogs out this way...
Generalities with exceptions. Young deer are less tough. Quick drop em in their track kills are less tough. After that I suspect the habits of the individual deer make a difference. A deer that likes to roam and climbs mountains every day will be fitter and therefore tougher than a lazy deer that stays in his 5 acres of swampland.
Just sayin !
Just sayin !
Moons. Yup it's a tasty treat at the end of the night. When the acorn crop is low around here the deer key in on the berries. There is a new kind of berry out that one of the bog owners has planted in a couple of his bogs. Can't keep the deer off of them!!!!! They prefer that kind to the others. Now take into consideration that bog owners are supposed to take a certain percentage of berries and not pick them. Now you have the deer coming and eating another percentage of the bog, never mind the plants they will injure when stepping on them and the leaves that are eaten which results in damaged plants. These bogs can get picked clean in a hurry. Years ago the cranberries drew a good price per barrel, not so much anymore. The profit margin is a lot lower than it used to be. Lots of bogs down here, but lots of hunters too!!!!
Bigwoods, sous vide is a cooking method where the item you're cooking is vaccum sealed then cooked in a water bath at the exact temperature you choose. Sosso is right, this could really benefit super tough meat that you still want to serve medium rare, because you can let the meat swim, vaccum sealed, at say 130 degrees, for 6 hours and it will never go beyond 130 degrees, but will become more tender over that time frame. You can also infuse your food with whatever flavors you choose in the bag. Want rosemary bacon infused venison? Season your meat, put it in the bag with a sprig of rosemary and a scoop of bacon fat, drop it in the water bath at your desired temp, pull it out after a couple hours then put it in a blazing hot pan or on the grill to sear the outside. The lack of oxygen in the bag will actually help suck the flavors deeper into the meat. The most consistent way is to buy a computerized sous vide machine which heats and circulates the water so the entire water bath is the consistent temperature of your choosing, but you can also macgyver a thermometer to the edge of a pot on your stove, over low enough heat that you get your desired temp. It requires stirring every 5-10 minutes to avoid hot spots, but when you find that sweet spot with your stove dial you can usual hold water at about 130 degrees for medium rare red meat.