Well Look At That.
Wisconsin
I contacted Kevin Wallenfang at the DNR for some information on bow vs. crossbow. See attached link.
It seems like what I have been posting for the last few months is pretty much fact.
While the success rate for crossbows are marginally higher. The higher buck kill is attributed to simply more crossbow licenses sold. While at the same time bow license sales are going down. I think you guys are smart enough to realize that more of one type of hunter means more hours afield which means more opportunities.
Again, proof that bow hunting is dying, while crossbow hunting is increasing. The P&Y Club has a real problem brewing.
What is the problem for P&Y?
I see that they are listing the CP holders separate, which is a good thing. I would like to see them do away with the "upgrade" and make a hunter choose hit tool when purchasing a license. Either a Crossbow license or an Archery license. Not both!
I also see not buck harvest success rates, which is the real issue. This appears to me that it it the total harvest, not broken down into buck vs antlerless.
They already have that data, why not release it???
They do not allow crossbow entries therefore their support and potential bowhunting base has to be in decline. They may not admit it but it has to be true. Both Michigan and Wisconsin were two former huge bowhunting states that are no longer. Both have become crossbow hunting states.
Bowhunting is dying!!!
Missouri, start your own thread for your drivel.
Look at the median age for each user group. 55 for crossbow, and 39 for bow. Yes there has been a shift by mostly older users. But bow hunting is alive and will remain alive.
True bow hunters will remain just that while weekend warrior types will bounce back and forth between weapon types.
Maybe the crossbow users need a William Tell club for their records.
There are roughly half as many bowhunters ( as defined by the P&Y Club ) in Michigan and Wisconsin than there was 7 years ago. This has been well documented in articles already posted on this forum and can further be substantiated by Wisconsin license sales, also already posted on this forum.
Bowhunting, as defined by the P&Y Club, is in a steep decline, while crossbow hunting is thriving.
As mentioned, one of the key metrics that seems to always be left out is the success rate on bucks with crossbows. It has skyrocketed. There isn't an easy way to look the numbers up, but I did a quick check of the Rusk and Taylor Counties. In rusk county over 56% of the bucks killed under an "archery" tag were with crossbow, and in Taylor County 64% were killed with a crossbow. Those numbers have been going up exponentially since the trial for crossbows was introduced and they aren't going to slow down.
Maybe I am not reading this fully, but do we not check a weapon upon registering the kill? If I shoot a buck with my bow the graph should have that kill included under archery not a Patron license. Another way to ask my question, do we register by license or license type. 2015 I bow killed a buck during the gun season and thought I checked it as archery kill. Would this kill be in the graph under archery, gun or Patron.
Weapon authority is part of the record.
Missouribreaks. If P&Y is about the money they can start a cross bow club. If they care about is Vbows then they just carry on happy as can be.
Perhaps, if all bowhunters would simply register their kills as crossbow kills, the numbers would eventually have to push the legislation to reduce the crossbow season. People might have to pay that $3 upgrade (patron owners would not) but it could be worth it if it helped force the change. The number of upgrades would also make it look like many more people have converted helping further skew the numbers that could help force the change. Heck, one does not even need to kill a deer to register it. Now, please understand that I am not advocating this behavior that the existing system easily allows.
If your not advocating it why even bring it up? The intention is there.
Skewing data to get what you want is a sure way to loose trust of a user group (bow hunters) to the NRB and DNR along with state legislators.
Hap, then the VB Numbers would drop making the case for HB being the salvation and only way to control the heard. unintended consequences.
Glunker, you re correct. When you register your deer you are supposed to select the tool that you used to harvest the deer. That fact is one glaring item that has been left out of the report.
No need to skew the data in any way, we just need to get "ALL" of the correct data into the eyes of the hunters.
Another reason to be a member of WBH; strength in numbers. We will need strength more in future years.
Hap. That would be a pretty hefty fine. Not many of the real bowhunters even own a xgun if they get checked out. However most xgun assassins do own a real bow so I'm guessing with the embarrassment of using an xgun they might register it as a real kill. Just my opinion which is worth 2 cents.
I have yet to see anyone with a Xbow in the field or in the area. I don`t believe bowhunting is "dying" if ANYTHING it`s leveling off. For the longest time it was a niche type of hunt...then it seems every swinging pecker bought a bow. If it levels off and the wannabes go away....fine with me.
Look at the sale of crossbow licenses vs bow licenses.
DT, those are some twisted and numbers. I would not be surprised to see a retraction from the department regards that misleading info.
Mike F, I think the $3 option to use either/or is perfect for some of us older guys with rotator cuff/back problems. I prefer to hunt with my bow but use the X-bow if shoulder/back acts up. Last 2 years I was forced to use x-bow (did not tag a deer). This year after major successful neck/back surgery last Nov, I plan on using my bow and have new Hoyt ordered. If I didn't have choice I would have to go X-bow to stay "in the game" at 64.
Even if you take the numbers as given in the link. It shows the crossbow as being the superior, more efficient weapon. Yet the crossbow supporters would have you think that a crossbow offers NO advantages over a modern compound.
Yes Rut, even those misleading numbers are not favorable to the crossbow users. However, as greedy entrants into a season designed for more primitive weapons, they really do not care about the numbers, they simply try and use them if they help their position.
I have talked to Kevin a few times. There is not a hunting season he does not like.
Blackwolf - As we age we will all fall into the crossbow stage if we so choose. That being said the "old" rule would work perfectly for us. Again, I have nothing against the use of crossbows under the "old" rule. As a CP license holder I am assumed to be using a crossbow. I do not and have not had the need to ....yet
I agree, the "old rule" would be fine as long as "lesser weapon" applies so I could use bow on "old" or x-bow license.
Mike F.... I also am ok with the old rules for cross guns. I buy a CP so I get lumped in that same bunch. Nothing against fellow archers who grow old and can't use a bow. But I have to be honest I WILL NEVER HUNT WITH A CROSS GUN.
buckmaster69. That is exactly how I feel. That's why they make cameras.
Never is a long time! Have fun sitting on the couch while your family goes hunting without you Buck.
We as bowhunters could of avoided this whole conversation. Back when crossbow aficionados we’re looking at lowering the age to 55. But the selfish bowhunter said no way. So look at what you face today. Crossbows for all that want them.
55 without a disability is a little absurd. My old man is 63, with both wrists completely shot. He has to get cortisone injections as much as allowed. He refuses to touch a crossbow until he absolutely cannot shoot his compound anymore. He was able to take a beautiful 140" buck last year (picture above) using a vertical bow. You can't tell me that a 55 year old that didn't meet the restrictions for a disability before needs to shoot a crossbow. The point I think some are missing here, calling the crossbow haters greedy, is that the crossbow hunters are actually the greedy ones. There are only 2 logical reasons to choose crossbow over vertical bow (unless you are too old or have a disability.) 1: You are too lazy to learn to shoot a vertical bow. No doubt they take more time and skill to learn to shoot. 2: They are easier to kill with. Getting a draw on a whitetail is 50% of the challenge. Range is also stretched out with a crossbow.
Why are so many more joining in the archery season with their crossbows now? Because people are generally lazy. For all those that are worried about their crossbow season being taken away, why wouldn't you just buy a vertical bow and learn to shoot it??
One more thing... If there is no advantage of a crossbow over a vertical bow, why did so many gun hunters who never participated in the archery season before start all of a sudden??
By the way, under the old rules I'm fairly certain my old man would qualify to be able to use a cross bow. Just so there's no confusion, I 100% agree with the old rules.
"DT, those are some twisted and numbers. I would not be surprised to see a retraction from the department regards that misleading info." Obviously, you don't like looking at the actual numbers, do they not further your cause? "Yes Rut, even those misleading numbers are not favorable to the crossbow users." How are they misleading? Those are basically the same numbers I compiled and posted on one of the previous anti crossbow threads. These numbers prove the sky is not falling. You can accurately see crossbows vs. vertical bow and there is not the huge success percentage the anti crossbow people like to portray. By pulling out patrons numbers and those that purchased an upgrade, you can see how successful they were. You can't lump them into crossbow or vertical bow, because there is no way of knowing which weapon they hunted with.
" Wisconsin appears to be retaining and recruiting hunters at a faster rate than most other states as our rate of decline is less than the national average." Sounds like maybe crossbows are retain or adding new hunters, even though the anti argue they are not. Even going so far as to call crossbow hunters liars and cheats.
"The percentage of archery/crossbow antlered harvest began to accelerate in the 1980s. The two most likely influences on this trend occurred shortly after compound bows became popular and hunting from an elevated platform became legal." Hey compound guys that preach unfair advantage, isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? Maybe the state should even go further and differentiate between traditional bow hunters and compound hunters. Maybe the compound guys are killing too many bucks and the traditional guys don't like the unfair advantage compounds give a hunter.
Interesting to see that vertical bow guys kill more on public land than crossbow hunters, 13.9% vs. 15.6%. But I thought crossbows were destroying public land hunting? I found this interesting, "With most of the state in private ownership (85%), the majority of deer hunting occurs on private land where permission is required, leaving the decision of the weapon type used to harvest a deer up to the landowners/leasees." So those that want to control if crossbows can be used during the archery season, still can. Interesting, very interesting.
For the record, I shoot a 50# recurve 90% and a compound 10%. If you wonder why I support this, it is because I support choice to hunt with what you want, and shoot what you want. There is no proof that crossbows are significantly hurting the herd reproduction. If there was I would support the other side. Many I talk to and myself see it as pure greed to attempt to shorten the or eliminate the crossbow season. One thing I find interesting is that the anti crossbow people have yet to come out publicly as to what the new season structure would be. Why is that?
Let's try something different, instead of calling names and belittling others, let's have an adult conversation about the facts. Present your numbers to back up what you say.
As far as some here telling crossbow guys to go to another forum, have those guys seen the sponsors on this sight? Heck there was even a very nice product review on the Bowsite homepage, about the Mathews/Mission sub1 crossbow. Look at other sponsors here, many make products for the crossbow industry. Maybe you should tell them you don't want their sponsor dollars for the forum.
Once again, talk of greed. You insinuate that VB hunters are the ones being greedy. If we were to go back to the old rules, I could care less if the new people that crossbow hunting brought to the sport stayed in it. It's almost like insinuating that crossbow hunters will no longer be able to hunt the bow season if they take crossbows away. Not true at all. Go buy vertical bow.
DT.... I WILL NEVER USE A CROSS GUN. NEVER. I have already caught hell from my family for my position on this and they know when I say this Im a man of my word. When that day comes that I can't pull my bow back I will increase my other activities. Grouse, pheasant and duck hunting for starts. Oh ....lets not forget fishing. Musky , panfish and walleyes. My wife bought me a new boat with a 90 merc. so I can tell you there is no way I will be sitting on the couch if I don't take up a cross gun.
What justifies your post Jeff’s? What data do you have that supports wants?
"Crossbow users have the highest success rate of all weapon types." Straight from the DNR link posted by DT. Of course, what would you expect when a superior weapon is allowed into a more primitive weapon season?
So, bear hunters that sit over bait have a higher success rate than do the hound hunters. Should we look at allowing hound hunters the first week every year? Or better yet only allow bait sitters the last two weeks of bear season?
Some of you are starting to sound like the brats looking to dismantle the 2nd amendment.
Jeffd... congratulations on you dads buck and being a true archer.
This is pulled from the link I provided.
One commonly stated concern is that hunters that use both a crossbow and gun are bagging two bucks at a higher rate than those hunting archery equipment and gun. Data indicates that there is approximately a 1-2% difference between the two groups. In addition, 41.6% of the hunters that held a crossbow license and a gun license bagged 2 antlered deer at least once since 2005 while 47% of hunters that held just a vertical bow and a gun license bagged 2 antlered deer at least once since 2005.
My point is that there is no reason to use a crossbow unless: 1. You have a disability that prevents you from pulling back a vertical bow 2. You are over a certain age where pulling back sufficient poundage is no longer reasonable. I think 65 was fine.
Other reasons that I can think of that I wouldn't consider acceptable: 1. You are lazy 2. You can't shoot a vertical bow because (see number 1) 3. It makes it easier to kill a deer (see number 1) 4. If you can shoot a gun, you can shoot a crossbow (see number 1)
I don't think I need data to back these points up. I think everybody here is smart enough to know that there is a difference in advantage between the 2 weapons. The numbers that were thrown out by the crossbow guys proves that. It might not be a huge difference right now, but the graphs are on an upward trend for crossbow success.
Wallenfang and the Dept biologist will always choose the path of "harvest more deer". We were "way above" carrying capacity prior to the new deer management program and I highly doubt we have reduced. Crossbows are just another tool in their toolbox. I think a few of you forget the SAK population estimates the DNR released each year and how accurate they chose to be with those. I'm skeptical of these.
I think what Drop Tine is missing on this report is: Bow and gun antlered success has pretty much mirrored each other each year. Crossbows on the other hand have been higher and are increasing. The fact bow license are dropping and crossbow are increase is irrelevant as it relates to success rates. The fact the crossbow license numbers are increase with a continued growth in success rate is what causes alarm. In 4 years the success rate has grown 4.2% for crossbows. Even if they only increase 2% in the next 4 years, we are looking at crossbow success rates 10% higher than archery/gun. 10% higher is also supported in the other states after inclusion.
Season dates for weapons are set by harvest success rates for all users to achieve a certain harvest. One group shouldn't/can't take more than its share as other groups.
DT.... brats.... 2 amendement..... You sound like a politician who got bought....... OH yea.... cross gun federation... BHA....
I wonder why the large discrepancy in Wallenfang's numbers. Please review the total harvest from gun, bow and crossbow in 2017.
25,809 antlered with bow w/125,151 bow hunter is 20.6% success rate.
27,406 antlered with crossbow w/67,960 crossbow hunter is 40.3% success rate.
99,638 antler with gun w/536,557 gun hunter is 18.6% success rate.
Maybe the DNR deer harvest summary is incorrect and Wallenfang's report has the true numbers. hmmm
Geitz - Thanks for posting this information. I believe it opens a lot of eyes to the real success of the crossbow hunter vs archery and gun.
The harvest totals over the years have shown that the success rate of archery equipment vs guns was pretty much equal. Those numbers included the people who could legally use crossbows under the old law. Now that the new law is in place we see the higher success rate vs the old success rate.
Each of us can make their own decision up as to if you want to continue down this path of seeing fewer deer during the season and having a terrible gun season, or is it time we take a look at adjusting the crossbow season to allow the chance of the people who choose to use a different tool the same harvest opportunity as they had in the past? Or we go down the path that we have followed since the implementation of the current crossbow season, one of lower gun and archery success rates and fewer deer being seen in the woods??
Attend the spring hearings and vote your mind.
Geitz, If I pay for either upgrade, crossbow or vertical, which I don't harvest a deer with either, what category do you count me in? Am I a crossbow or vertical hunter? Do we count me in both categories?
Sorry Buck but I’m still using my Bowtech 350 that’s going on it’s 7th season.
But you guys all fail to understand the DNR manages the deer as a whole. Right now deer harvest as a whole does not indicate a reason to make change.
Also the reports show that crossbows are predominantly used on private land where only the owners or occupants (lease) have access to those deer anyway.
The traditionalists are the only true hunter that has a legitimate bitch in this whole scheme of things. Anyone that shoots a compound, myself included has chosen a easier path. Sorry to burst your bubble but that’s the honest truth and lumps you and I in the same category as crossbow hunters.
Geitz, By your numbers, combined archery and crossbow gives a harvest of 53,215. Does this include Patrons and those with upgrades? According to droptine's numbers combined with patrons and upgrades it is 61,020 combined harvest. Now knowing what category to put the kill into is pretty simple, by what the hunter registered it as. But since that hunter could be a patrons or an upgrade hunter, we need to count him in both, correct?
Drop Tine.....never would I be in the same category as you or the wanna be archers (cross gunners).
DT, all that effort, just so your wife can kill an extra deer for the freezer?
"Geitz, By your numbers"
Not my numbers, the DNR's. They state the weapons used to harvest the animal and how many animals were harvested. I find it very difficult to skew numbers when you report, "harvested with bow" or "crossbow" or "gun". Now if it was registered as a "crossbow" kill and Wallenfang can pull it out and lump it in CP license or "combined" license numbers, I can see how his numbers were fabricated.
Sorry buck but the truth is there before you that you chose an easier path when bought that last compound.
Capt. the truth and numbers are there from the those that officially track these things. It’s quite amusing watching all the twisting going on.
Dt- yes most upgrade to compounds but the difference is it's still a bow and arrow, not a xbow and bolt. Your trying to justify a superior weapon being used in the archery season because you and the xgunners want it to be easier to kill deer in the archery season.
DT, because you must have missed it the first time; "Crossbow users have the highest success rate of all weapon types." Straight from the DNR link posted by DT. Of course, what would you expect when a superior weapon is allowed into a more primitive weapon season?
RJN...CaptMike.....The worst part about this is soon DT will be telling us the air gun is archery.
Wait a second .... no he won't... till someone lines his pocket
Capt. but the overall kill has not gone up. So where is the fire?
If we’re basing seasons on success rates then the trad guys should get the full 5 month season to kill and deer, compound and crossbow usesers should get abbreviated seasons then.
How many here have even seen someone hunting with a crossbow on public land?
One thing the crossbow lovers don't want you to know. Crossbow technology is pretty much limitless since it does not require a person to draw it. Compound bow tech has basically leveled off and there isn't much more to be done with it. The Raven and Mission sub 1 crossbows are just the beginning of it.
Guys really you lied about cross guns from the beginning. They are heavy , hard to shoot, short range weapon, it will bring more hunters into the sport and its hard to get a permit. ALL LIES. You swore there would be no increase at all in the buck harvest. More lies. You agreed that if kill was increased the cross gun season would be shortened. Of course DT you can't seem to remember that can you. You should be ashamed and resign from the CC. If you were my delegate. I would bring up what a liar you are. Please leave bow site forum and go to a cross gun forum where you and the wanna be archers belong. Oh... I have seen cross gunners on public hunting land in Marathon county.
But I’m not a crossbow hunter. So why should I have to leave? Is it because I don’t agree with you and bring a better argument for them than you do for being against them?
Secondly what have I lied about? I posted a link right from the DNR. It’s not my report.
If you want my volunteer position on the CC feel free to take it. I could be doing a lot more fun things rather than doing some good for the likes of you. I represent the people of my county and how they vote when at the state convention on my Dime and time.
Blow hards are just that. All wind and no action.
"Many I talk to and myself see it as pure greed to attempt to shorten the or eliminate the crossbow season."
Most people I've talked to feel the exact same way as you describe and feel this is nothing other than a small group of guys not wanting to share "their" rut-drunk bucks with other hunters. The few on this forum that can't stand the thought of someone choosing to hunt with a different weapon than they choose are the minority everywhere but on this forum from what I've noticed. I've also ran into several hunters that haven't made the switch yet, but plan to just as soon as they see that the crossbow season won't be shortened. Me thinks there will be an uptick in crossbow sales shortly here but that's just a guess. ;-)
Drop Tine ..... You posted a link then spun it the way you wanted. With delegates like you I can understand why the CC gets the rap it does.
"Me thinks there will be an uptick in crossbow sales shortly here but that's just a guess. ;-)"
Well of course there will be. Lazy is the way.
This has nothing to do with the CC so quit deflecting.
Like I said step up.
I’m first and foremost a bowhunter. 55 years of shooting a bow. I’ve shot a crossbow 3 shots in my lifetime. My wife hunts with a crossbow and I will always support her right to do so.
She only hunts on our land so she won’t be taking away bucks from any of you. So you can pull your panties out if your crack.
The great thing about hunting in WI. The seasons are liberal and let the individual to impose his or her own limitations until someone gets butt hurt and tries to pressure people that his way is the only way.
I’m just glad my wife doesn’t read here because she thinks hunters are a great group. I can’t wait till she meets some of you yahoos at the Pope and Young rondi in Poynette.
The issue I have is that the xgun success rate on BUCKS is higher than gun & bow combined. Kevin W. is all about getting dead deer. He is very pro xgun and is the first to admit it. The figures are including that tremendous advantage the compound users have. The difference is hunting or killing. I also have seen many xgun hunters in the woods & along the roads not to mention trespassing. I have pics. Not to get started on Hmongs but in the area I hunt they all use xguns & start deer drives on opening day. DT, I appreciate your opinion & what you do. Not the first time we have disagreed & probably not the last.
Jeff d x10 on the lazy. All u need is teeth and 1 arm if u want ot bad enough. My dad is 70 and still goin strong
DT... You don't answer questions. You talk about liberal seasons. Thats what archers are worried about. Thats what you don't get.
"With delegates like you I can understand why the CC gets the rap it does." That very well sums up the way many regard the CC.
Yes, Dwight Shue (spelling might be off) hurt his shoulder & shot a nice Mule Deer in a video I have using his teeth to draw & hold the bow. We had a young gal at the Youth Expo with half her arm missing & she was determined to shoot a bow. I worked with her & couldn't figure a way but one of the other instructors that was even older than me had seen it before & there was a bone in her stump that she could pull the string back with. You could see that look of pride & accomplishment in her eyes & I dang near had tears in mine along with her parents. Some of us are just different I guess.
Droptine, I know you don't use a crossbow yourself. Why is that?
CaptMike........I know some good delegates and i know a couple that get on just to push their agenda.
So, since your making the insinuation. What is my agenda I’m pushing?
I’ve pushed through a resolution to eliminate the concealment rule for waterfowl hunting opening up 1000’s of acres of more area for waterfowl hunters and reduce crowding in more popular areas.
It took me 5 years of attending committee meetings and hearings again on my dime and time. I also did it as a citizen as I was not on the CC at the time.
To your accusation I will say I take great pride representing my neighbors in the name of conservation and give back far more than I take.
Buck what you going to do with your buddy leaving for Africa? Your on your own pal. Going to disappear again?
Drop Tine. I think the CC is slowly becoming a waste of time. Look what happened with cross guns voted down how many times. They went around the CC got a season. What did the CC do after they pushed season that was not supported by sportsmen. What did you say when this was done. NOTHING??? You support cross guns after they were voted down by your fellow sportsmen . Your agenda is pushing cross guns with lies. I don't have time to do anything like the CC. And I would not. Family first then I do charity work on my dime and time for 15 years. I do brat frys in the summer for the vets Camp Tomahawk. Just quit this year doing Ronald MC Donalds house because of too many rule changes concerning food preparation. I try to help in my community. Who is my buddy goin to Africa?? What are you talking about disappear again ???? Im not going no where. I will be gone a few days ice fishing.
What? A CC delegate pushing the DNR agenda? Who would have ever thought?
Amazing that just weeks prior to a Spring Hearing question, a CC delegate post a colorful but distorted report from the DNR to deceive the public.
Well, look at that..
Um yea right. All my opinions are just that, mine. Never once have I said this is the opinion of the CC.
I was not a CC Delegate when the voting took place for crossbows. Also when this was all taking place you can check the history of the posts here and I’m pretty sure I was opposed to them being included into the archery season if you care to look.
Also the crossbow was all legislative. If you have displeasure, you need to share it with your legislators. Your state legislators circumvented the CC and the NRB and established the season.
Don’t shoot the messenger. I was asked to share the information and thought it would be if interest here. Do with it what you like.
"I was asked to share the information and thought it would be if interest here."
Winner, Winner...Chicken dinner.
What do you mean the legislators circumvented the CC and NRB? I was unaware of the legislatures involvement.lol
Wait, I do recall an informal hearing which legislators, certain groups, a representative from the WCC and their mouth piece from the WWF attended. More specifically, when the then WCC Secretary stated the stance of the WCC was full inclusion although there never was a vote as such.
BTW, even if everything I wrote was false, I never slandered you.
Drop if you opposed it then why do you seem to embrace or defend now?
Pasq, my wife has an issue with tremors. I can’t even pronounce the name of the ailment. With both hands and arms under stress of holding weight of a bow she can not control it to be anywhere near accurate with her bow.
She still shoots her bow to shoot with me but I see her frustration.
After seeing two doctors neither one would give her a permit to use a cross bow. Shooting one handed off a rest she is very accurate. Shooting one handed she can control one side well enough.
“Possibly” her issue has advanced enough that she would qualify now for a permit. But doctors frown on bringing weapons into the office to demonstrate the issue.
I am in no way doubeing your situation. BUT unfortunately I am skeptical based on my experience working at the Kenosha Gander Mountain and seeing the individuals come in when the doctors notes were needed. It was a laugher. And I seem to remember a certain lady named Mary who brought the bill in saying she was unable to get a doctor's note and every had a good laugh at that. Handicapped parking permits are available to someone who stubbs their toe. Opioid epidemic is in effect because doctors are writing scrips for everything. Again no disrespect to you or your situation but I have always been a doubter which may be a fault of mine but maybe not.
That’s the only reason I’m in support of them. Is supporting my wife’s ability to hunt. Like I said I have only shot one crossbow taking three shots with it at a target.
I have no plans of using one now or in the future. But I’m not one to say never. I enjoy deer hunting to much.
DT,
You can still support reducing the crossbow season. If your wife receives a disability permit, she more than like will have full access to the entire bow season. The DNR and NRB will not take away the season length for disabled and over 65 crossbow users.
Here are the Deer Hunter Success Rates by weapon type (is it really a weapon? I didn't know we were fighting the deer. I think of them as tools.) As you can see the buck harvest success rate for those that use gun or archery equipment is pretty equal throughout the years since 2010. The buck harvest success rate with crossbows surpassed both gun and archery equipment in the first year and has steadily climbed since then.
Again, more information so that you can make an informed decision on how you would like to vote at the upcoming spring hearings.
Does anyone know if all weapons combined is getting close to the magical number where the DNR would consider placing limits on any or all seasons? What is that magical number??? Seems to me, if you want to limit the season, then you should where we currently are in relation to that harvest number.
Mike F, Where did those numbers come from on your graph? Shows totally different numbers for 2017 in regards to archery and crossbow from what Geitz produced and Droptine produced.
The cross bow season was shoved down our throat by political means, by outside groups paying politicians for their votes. Nothing more, nothing less. It was sold to us with the promise to get more youth involved (hasn't happened) and many other empty promises. We were also promised, by the politicians in Madison that the crossbow season harvest numbers would be looked ant and if the success rate was much higher then the season would be adjusted. Another line of BS from the politicians. We all remember the outcry after the past seasons of "there aren't any deer" Who is shooting all the bucks? The harvest numbers are showing us who is shooting all the bucks.
As far as a magical number? There will never be a magical number in Wisconsin unless they magically bring back SAK and in person registration and fill all of the open biologist positions in the DNR. Do you really thin the DNR will put a cap on teh number of licenses sold? No way! With the low success rates and high license sales $$ they are happy and want to tray anything possible to get more $$ out of the hunters wallets into their own coffers.
This change is recommended to try and make the opportunity to harvest a deer equal across the board, regardless of your tool of choice.
So, where did the numbers in your chart come from? It seems as thought the success rate percentages on bucks varies, so I guess we can throw that stat out of the argument. I guess I don't here the cries of there aren't any deer, at least in the last 5 years or so. Aren't many deer units in the reduction or maintain stage?
With the passage of the the new no age requirement, would the crossbow not be the logical weapon for youth and to increase hunting populations?
Lets look at your chart: Archery in 2013 219,842 archers Combined crossbow and archery 2017 234,832.
Seems to me like some new people bought licenses to hunt. Maybe they weren't telling a lie when they said it would bring new opportunity for hunters. The numbers prove it did. These numbers came from your chart so they must be true.
So you are saying that wildlife management has no clue of estimated populations? Hmm interesting. You are also saying that wildlife management doesn't take into account a percentage of how many animals can be successfully killed each year to still manage the population? Hmm interesting. So the state does wildlife management strictly with a goal of selling the most licenses possible. Wow I have never heard of that management plan.
Think for a moment, what if they had an estimated heard population with an estimated plus/minus error figured in. Now if they were to take that estimated population and figure that they could remove say 40% of that population in males and still maintain or grow the population. Now they take that number and compare it to the overall license sales (this number is a pretty constant number or easily estimated for the future looking at previous sales) and the success rate of those license sales. Wouldn't they figure out pretty easily when they need to limit weapons/season lengths or bag limits?
So really what we get out of your statement and many others arguing to limit crossbows, is it isn't fair!!! The guy in the next tree stand over has an advantage over me! Would that be the same advantage the compound has over the traditional archer?
"The cross bow season was shoved down our throat by political means, by outside groups paying politicians for their votes. "
They paid more than politicians. Just look at all the people who voted no and then 3 months later all changed their votes to yes. They sold out for the cash.
It is time to go back to disabled and elderly but that won't ever happen because money will always win.
Sharpspur, to answer your question on wildlife management having a clue about populations, I'd say no, they don't have a clue. If they had a clue, they would have never given out unlimited doe tags and come out with T-zone seasons that decimated the population in the first place. I believe this has been a huge factor in hunter recruitment. Kids as well as many adults don't have the patience to sit all day and not see a deer. I can't say I blame them.
On the other hand, maybe they do have a clue and they skew the numbers on purpose. I could think of a couple reasons they might do this. Insurance companies, sell more licenses?
More archery season hunters prefer crossbows to bows, that is what will win. Hunters want crossbows as much or more than the manufacturers.
"So really what we get out of your statement and many others arguing to limit crossbows, is it isn't fair!!! The guy in the next tree stand over has an advantage over me!"
So using this line of thought. Why have limits on weapons at all? There are some that want to be able to use rifles from mid Sept on. Why not let them. Why not group bagging for everyone? Why not legalize the use of night vision scopes and let us hunt at night. It's too hard to hunt during the day. Why not a weaponized drone season. We should be able to sit in comfort and just watch a screen.
RutnStrut+1
I just want to add that if they make night vision legal, I'd like to put in a request for thermal imaging. Way cooler...
Yes Sharp but us trad guys don't mind Compounds because they are bows and the cross gun isnt.
The numbers are from the DNR Director of Wildlife Management. The numbers I gave were updated in February, 2018 and are the buck harvest numbers, not total harvest numbers. Which I believe those numbers were posted before.
As far as the total number of licenses sold here is that information - 2010 780513 2011 783850 2012 807090 2013 807959 2014 766997 2015 780569 2016 745107 2017 771367 You can see that the total licenses sold in 2017 is down 36592 from 2013, the year before the "blanket" cross bow law was shoved down our throats.
Happy - "It is time to go back to disabled and elderly but that won't ever happen because money will always win." Exactly!
As far as the season length and timing. Again, what we were sold was a false bill of goods. The crossbow season was to be revisited by the legislature after 3 years and the season was to be adjusted so that all hunters, regardless of their tool of choice were given the approximate same ability to harvest a buck. As you can see the buck harvest rate by crossbow users is higher than the hunters who use other tools. I believe that the reasoning behind this was to eliminate the need to go to a 1 buck per year, regardless of the tool chosen.
Big money can only win if hunters buy the scoped crossbow and leave bowhunting, which the majority have done. That is being driven by hunters,..... nothing else!
The scoped cross bow is ? What can we say that has not been said ? When you are young it is said that it's not your fault . You are young , you just don't know . When your older or just old and you still don't know than what are we suppose to do with that ? For just a few years now , actually it is said to be some 60 ,000 + years ago that a bow was first pulled and used to hunt now all of sudden you need a scope on a cross bow just for a deer ? How you start is one thing . How you end says a lot . I can't imagine my last hunt of any kind let alone for a deer with a scope on cross bow . Never .
"Crossbow users have the highest success rate of all weapon types."
The above quote is from the DNR, it is at the bottom of one of the graphs in DT's link.
Sharpspur asked about wildlife managers not knowing how many deer there are. I like to look at their bear count when they decided that there was twice as many bear as they thought. That means someone was 100% off on their job and they kept their job. Besides I wanted to be post number 100 on this thread.
All these comments but I wonder how many will actually vote... My guess will be under 15%
Under "Deer 2000", deer were to be managed to social and biological acceptable populations. WI DNR used SAK population models each year to determine quota/tag to bring populations to acceptable levels. As most know, SAK could easily be skewed and were not accurate in the EAB areas. Also, there was no sound science behind biological goals and different user groups had different opinion on socially acceptable goals. Inflated SAK estimate with lower goals caused increased anterless tags and harvests.....And the position we were in before.
Now, populations are manage at the county level. SAK doesn't/should play a role. The county members with resident opinion choose to either increase, maintain or lower population in the area then decide which "tool" will be used to manage the population.
So managers really don't know what the population is or a number quota.
CDAC is just as bad at cooking the books or using numbers that pertain to certain user groups as SAK was. At least with SAK they didn't pretend to tell hunters and landowners that their input meant something.
MikeF.....Geitz.....RutnStrut...Pasquinell..CaptMike..... You guys hit it on the head !!!! LTLJimBow... Im with you. I will never hunt with a cross gun!!
Until your rotator cuff gets blown up
Sorry DoorKnob Never gonna happen. NEVER
Dang buckmaster, don't forget about me. I would rather play shuffleboard than shoot a x gun. lol If I was that bad that I had to use a gun in bow season I'm guessing I wouldn't be able to put a stand up, gut a deer, drag it out or butcher it. How do they do it? Plus how do they sleep at night?
albino....sorry I missed you on my post. If I wanted to use a cross gun I could get my dads 10 point. My boys are upset with me about my stance. But they know I won't ever have one.
I will never hunt with a crossbow, they are not a substitute for a bow. When I can no longer bowhunt I will make room for others in the drawings.
"Until your rotator cuff gets blown up" Had both of them "repaired" . The first one almost killed me 3 times because of a staph infection I picked up in the OR. Still hunt with a bow-hurts at times but I still get it done. This thing with my dominant eye going south is kicking my butt but if it doesn't work out I guess I'll have to play checkers (or shuffleboard). I AM hoping to find a good coach to help with this but I'm stubborn and giving it my best. I do talk about this quite a bit but, hey, it's right in front of me 24/7.
lame crown dip.....way to go. I get a shot of cortisone in my shoulder as needed plus I cranked my bow down. Tried my recurve last year had a hell of a time drawing it back.
My feelings for sure. Hey, if it were easy every one would do it....wait for it
Love it. The second year of cross gun my eldest son hurt his shoulder and got a cross gun. I told him thats not archery. Many of my friends told me once they go dark they will never come back. After one year he admitted to me just like hunting with a gun . No challenge. Im proud of my son he went back to a bow !!!!
Dang, I got a new bow today. I can't wait till deer season. I am going to the range to sight in. It is just like they used in the old days.
I know a real bow hunter wouldn't have that long sight on top.
"Until your rotator cuff gets blown up"
I'm perfectly fine with you shooting an xbow with tbat
Had one shoulder rebuilt. It is starting to make crunchy noises now. They didn't have shoulder replacements back then. I guess now they put new parts in & put the socket on the other side. I don't know why. I still wouldn't use an xgun. Just my way.
I'm with you Albino-Had 6 surgeries on my left shoulder and one on my right shoulder. Dealing with a vision problem (from 20/20 to 20/200 in two weeks) in my left eye and as a left-handed shooter is a real problem. I'm trying to convert to be a right-handed shooter but it is not going well. I DO NOT see a shoulder-fired, scope sighted weapon in my future as it IS NOT archery.
albino...lame crowndip....me neither boys. I have no problem with older or hunters with disabilities using one. But..... I WILL NEVER HUNT WITH ONE.
