why quit archery then switch to a x gun
Wisconsin
I just can't understand it
Because like the compound was to the recurve, the crossbow is to the compound. What I learned by the topic "how old are you", is that most of us are middle aged men. With that said, the stages of the hunter as we all know them, puts most of us in the latter stages, where killing a deer isn't as important as it generally is, as when we were young. I can honestly remember being a kid, wishing I could use a crossbow, because I thought it was easier. Is it easier than a modern bow? Yes, and no. Is the compound easier than traditional? Yes. I think the hatred of the crossbow is misguided by many of you, and stems from your passion of the bow, and the stage you are at, but honestly, very few of you are truly being honest about the relationship between traditional to compound, and compound to crossbow, and ultimately it comes from a selfish standpoint. I may not make friends by saying it, but it's true. Personally, I think the crossbow cheapens the hunt, but so does my compound compared to a recurve, and I'm eventually transitioning back to basics. I'm actually surprised at how many people I know who've switched to the crossbow, and yes I pimp on them, but it's within their right, and ultimately, I'm still a good hunter who has no problem killing a deer with my vertical bow. After all, doesn't shooting from a 22 foot stand sort of take some of the mono e mono from the deer hunt? Well, I have no problem hunting from one of my 13 stands? I simply feel like there's some magic barrier we refuse to cross when it comes to the natural progression of the modern bow hunter, and that's the crossbow, but damn, we've come a long way from the stick, string, wood, and flint, and somehow so many feel like this is okay, but that damn "crossgun" is the devil! By the way, crossgun is to the rifle as the compound is to the recurve, and honestly, there's a far bigger disconnect from the compound to the recurve.
I know this doesn't fit many of your hyped up agendas, but think honestly for a moment. Do you really have a good reason to hate the crossbow so badly, besides some sort of selfish reason?
Unless you're legitimately disabled it has to be laziness.
Oh boy. This should be an interesting thread...
Hard to understand especially when you choose to go to a site where the hardcore bowhunters hang out and chastise them for not giving a big group hug...
I switched simply because I can...I wanted to try something new, will i go back to vertical...sure i will. Just like gun season...do you use the same gun all the time? I switch it up..
I can agree LC. Not sure why the topic is so profound, or you'd want to be a poser and pretend they are the same thing? One problem, is more often than not, the vertical archer is the one bringing up the topic 95% of the time. Not sure why we'd even discuss crossbows on a bow forum?
I pretty much agree with pete-pec. We had a traditional only bowhunting season, then gave it away to technology and the compound. Crossbows are only 15 % more let off than the new compounds. Hunters did the same thing with the primitive black powder season, gave it away to the inlines and scopes. Now bowhunters have given their season away to share with the nonbowhunters, in this case crossbow hunters. This is all nothing new, look at history and what hunters do!!
Crossbows are the next logical progression from the 85% let off compound. Hunters are the ones who buy this technology and they are the "big money" everyone keeps blaming. Bowhunting as we knew it is in a dramatic decline... and will continue. Many don't want to hear it, but it is true. Hand drawn bows are becoming the minority, already are in some states.
I do not care what somebody uses, that battle is already over and I lost, twice. Crossbows are not bows and are not a part of bowhunting. Crossbows are crossbows, and for crossbow hunting. An animal killed with a crossbow is a crossbow kill, not a bow kill.
Pete...I agree with some of your points. But the new cross guns are not even close to archery. When you go to meetings and they lie and deceive legislators. There so heavy, hard to shoot, short range weapon and they will bring younger hunters into the sport. For 3 years voted down at the CC meetings. Then... cross gun lobby goes thru legislators. Yea....I don't hate them.... but I would never trust that group.I don't care if someone with disabilities hunts with one. I don't want to be like OHIO. One and done.
I know of 4 guys right off the top of my head that quit bowhunting because it was too hard. They now use crossbows and sit in their shooting houses hunting over bait. Well 4 of them do. The other guy hunts out of ladderstands.
10pt... yes I use the same gun for gun season.
The crossbow is a shoulder-fired weapon that you can rest on something to steady your shot - a far cry from a bow, even a compound bow with high let-off. My 83 year old mom hunts with a Bear compound bow and killed a buck with 13 points with it in Minnesota this year, so the middle-aged men and natural progression argument is BS. Some people want to hunt with an easy weapon and also want to do so during the good weather and rut of the archery season - and as long as it is legal in the state they hunt, I fully support it. Just call it something other than bow hunting and don't rationalize it as some form of natural progression. It just easier.
Couldn't someone do both?
The problem arises when groups represent crossbows as something that they are not and call for them to be intermixed with lesser weapons. Natural progression as a bow hunter ages is not the changing of weapons, but instead the reduction of draw weight. I support whatever is legal - but often the legality of some items and practices are gained through partial truths and misrepresentations.
Richard, you're so damn wound up, you are not reading clearly. I'm suggesting that middle aged men don't have the same desire to hunt with something easier. Take a breath lol.
That Wisconsin news article that was floating around on the other thread brings an interesting angle. It noted traditional gun hunters that want more hunting opportunities will often take up crossbow hunting to add to their hunting time in the woods. That is not necessarily a bad thing if it gets more folks into the different types of the stick and string side of hunting.
Pete-pec. I usually agree with your posts but your way off on this one. Hunters are switching to xguns because it's easier to kill with plain and simple. There are no other reasons besides a disability. The archery season is for a bow and arrow and was that way for many years. Now a different weapon all together is included and guys like you try to justify them, sad.
"Not sure why we'd even discuss crossbows on a bow forum?" To make people aware of impending or proposed legislature or meetings that could impact the archery season.
RJN, easier to kill with? If I agreed with you, would agree that your compound is easier to kill with than a recurve? Would you agree that a recurve is easier to kill with than a spear, and a spear easier than a rock, and a rock easier than your hands?
Would you agree that your new modern compound Is easier, faster, better than your first compound? Is your release easier than fingers, is your carbon arrows better than cedar shafts?
I hope you understand my point? I'm not trying to justify them. I'm simply trying to get through to some of you, that your hatred blinds rational thinking. Comparing a crossbow to a gun, is fine, but I firmly believe there's a bigger disconnect between a recurve (finger tabs, cedar shafts, no sights) to a compound (carbon arrows, 80% let off, release aid that has a trigger, fiber optic sights, laser fast speeds), than a crossbow does to a gun.
Do I need to tell you one more time that I don't hunt with one? Do I need to tell you that I firmly believe I have a greater advantage over a crossbow? I'm not endorsing the damn things. I seriously believe my compound is more advantageous, at least the way I hunt with one. I guess with a rest, the crossbow out-performs me, but I'm no chump out to 60 yards with my compound, and I'm the guy who limits himself to 25 yard shots, knowing I can hit a static target fairly easy twice that range.
There's just far greater things to lose sleep over in my life. I'm not sorry we don't all agree. That's what makes all of us unique.
Captain. You prove my point. It's for no other reason we complain, than simple selfishness. That's okay. At least you admit it, even though (for me) the reason was obvious. You wonder why we have very poor recruitment? Listen to the archery populous who doesn't want additional people in the woods killing their deer. We act like we are concerned about the future of hunting, but we are really saying, is we are worried about the future of our personal hunting. I get it.
You and I somehow disagree on the many methods the DNR establishes to try and promote new hunters. Kids hunting at any age, special seasons for example. I have always stood my ground, that these methods do virtually nothing to recruit. The introduction of the crossbow is just another attempt to recruit new hunters. You should be happy that gun hunters are joining the woods with you. Those same lazy gun hunters are picking up that lazy crossbow, and finally seeing how awesome the woods is during that time of year. The only thing I know how to do, is continue to hunt vertical, and enjoy life. I do hope we don't go to a one buck only per season as a result, but if that happens, I'll survive.
With the talk of a one buck state, shorter seasons, just because xguns are proving to be superior and very lethal. I will not accept that when it negitively effects the archery season. Pete- go shoot the ravin at 60 yds and then your compound and report back to us. I already know the results.
I would never use a xbow. If I can't pull 30# I'm sure I can't lift/carry a xbow
Pete, did you know that bowhunting in WI was growing quite well for a number of years BEFORE crossbows were enabled to all? What was especially a strong trend was female bowhunters joining the ranks using a real bow.
Pete-
I have no idea what the heck you are rambling about.
You continuously fail to acknowledge that the superior crossbow will lead to a shortened archery season because of their effectiveness.
Crossbows should be it's own separate season and adjusted accordingly if the success rate is too great.
Please take RJN's challenge. Be honest. Tell us what happens. I am waiting.
Rut. It sounds like we as archers really weren't totally keen with growth after all? Wouldn't you agree, listening to what we are saying here?
"Would you agree that a recurve is easier to kill with than a spear, and a spear easier than a rock, and a rock easier than your hands?" Pete, I'd agree with that. However, it means nothing more than the price of tea in China regards the current consideration to adjust the crossbow season. And yes, it is selfish. Do you also view the crossbow users as being selfish? It is kind of selfish that gun hunters cannot use their rifles during the rut too. Actually, it is kind of selfish that we can only hunt during specified times of the year. Where does the selfishness start and stop?
Kevin. I don't shoot crossbows. Rambling? I don't think I rambled at all? You may not agree with it, and that's your right.
Thanks Captain. I think we as humans are generally selfish. We pretend we are not, but deep down, we are. Maybe in the future, the gun hunters will get to hunt the rut. Then crossbowsite will be up in arms just like we are. Does it suck? Sure. I'm simply looking at this whole thing with eyes wide open. Not much we could do, but vote, be heard, and fight the fight. I'm certain there are many things one person loves, and equally one person hates. While we complain about crossbows, those users are elated, and perhaps this will recruit more kids and woman into the woods. That's what we all really want after all....or do we? ;-)
So what if we want some limitations on who can do what and when. Are we so PC now that we can't want things? Really the "limitations" weren't that limiting. Anyone could have gotten a bow and bow hunted before. It's not that the hunters even demanded a crossbow season. It was voted down repeatedly, but certain legislators knew what we "needed". Well that and palms were greased.
"That's what we all really want after all....or do we?" Absolutely we do. But, data to date does not indicate that crossbows are adding new hunters to our ranks, they are simply moving hunters from one season to another. To me, those are the most selfish of people because they already had an avenue to enjoy warmer weather hunting and the rut, by getting involved in vertical bow archery. Instead of attempting to invest in some learning and practice time, they take the easy, back-door way to get into this season. But please do tell me, do you consider the crossbow people any less selfish than those of us who you have already called selfish?
You know why crabs don’t donate to charity? Because they’re shell-fish :)
This is really getting old. I guess everyone is sticking to their guns. Well maybe just the xguns. I have not seen anyone disagree that a compound is more accurate than a recurve. Yet the gun people keep bringing it up. The stats that are used now are using stats from these new fancy compounds yet the xguns are far superior. Now I guess even the recurve guys are not traditional if they don't use flint heads. Then to say you can out shoot a xgun with your compound at 60 yards is plain stupid. Must have a lot of trophy's & a lot of State championships. Recurves shoot 60 yards also. I started with a long bow. A cheapie fiberglass one. Then I went to a recurve & then a compound. In no way what so ever is it like shooting a xgun. Not even remotely close. This is insane.
Yes captain. Everyone is selfish.
Albino you are not reading my words and you are making claims that I simply did not write?
I promise you I'm not pro crossbow. I'm just not bent over it. I went and voted. I'll not say one more word. I don't intend to change your minds. I get it, crossbows are bad.
Good night, and good luck.
I haven't read every word in this thread but one thing I did read Pete is that you say that opposing the crossbow is selfish.
I strongly disagree, there's much more to it than that.
Yes, the compound is easier than the recurve but two important things they have in common is that you have to draw and hold both of them with your own muscles and you have to practice with both of them to be proficient. Being able to draw on a deer and being proficient enough to hit them are the two biggest challenges of hunting with a vertical bow.
The fundamental difference with a crossbow is that it's already drawn; you don't have to hold the string back with your muscles and you don't have to practice to be proficient. I know crossbowers that only shoot theirs once or twice per year.
For those reasons I am opposed to crossbows for the able bodied. It has nothing to do with selfishness and I think you are being narrow-minded by playing the "selfish" card on everybody who opposes them.
I guess that says it all,,,,,,, could it be made any more plain
Kevin@Wisconsin said; "You continuously fail to acknowledge that the superior crossbow will lead to a shortened archery season because of their effectiveness."
Can you provide and example in any state were archery season was shortened due to the biological impact from crossbow inclusion? I will answer for you. There is none after decades of use in most of the country. It is difficult for folks to acknowledge something that has never happened. In Wisconsin this superior weapon resulted in a decrease in archery harvest numbers.
Kevin@Wisconsin said; "Unless you're legitimately disabled it has to be laziness. "
Is a laser rangefinder a lazy substitute for spending the time to learn to judge distance accurately? Is a trail camera a lazy substitute for spending time in the field scouting? Is a treestand a lazy substitute for learning to hunt on the ground, eye to eye with our quarry, like our ancestors did? Are peep and pins a lazy substitute for instinctively knowing the arc of the arrow? Or do we just selectively pick and choose what is laziness and what is not to fit our personal agenda?
It really doesn't matter what anybody's motive or excuse is or whether its selfishness or laziness...
"In Wisconsin this superior weapon resulted in a decrease in archery harvest numbers." I am all ears. Please provide data that bears this out.
Man we need this snow to melt and the fall to come, this site was a lot more productive and fun last fall
Do we have any examples where the use of a cross bow by someone caused a problem for anyone else that couldn't possibly have been accomplished by a compound?
Doorknob, you really don't get any of it do you?
CaptMIke said; " I am all ears. Please provide data that bears this out."
Are the below number correct?
2011 - 90,200
2012 - 94,267
2013 - 83,628
2014 - 81,701 54,810 vertical 26,891 x-bow
2015 - 89,340 53,004 vertical 34,094 x bow
2016 - 88,053 48,279 vertical 39,776 x-bow
2017 - 92,396 45,166 vertical 47,228 x-bow
A bunch of numbers, even if presented in an understandable form, is not evidence of the contention that "In Wisconsin this superior weapon resulted in a decrease in archery harvest numbers."
CaptMike said; "A bunch of numbers, even if presented in an understandable form, is not evidence of the contention that "In Wisconsin this superior weapon resulted in a decrease in archery harvest numbers."
I cleaned up the numbers for you. If these DNR numbers are correct, then my point that the "superior" weapon you dread did not decimate the deer population nor cause excessive harvest in archery season in the reality of the situation. It does appear that deer numbers and tags are driving harvest, not weapons.
++From: Live2hunt 17-Apr-18
Doorknob, you really don't get any of it do you? ++
I'm all ears, explain away.
Bottom line is this. The majority of crossbow hunters use it because there is virtually no learning curve on it. There is little to no practice time once sighted in. It's just plain EASY.
Good that you can read minds.
Because it's easier to fill a deer tag with a cross bow than it is with a compound or a stickbow.
Just run deer over with your truck, then you won’t even have to carry X-gun to stand.
RutnStrut, then with the same logic why do the majority of compound shooters use mechanical releases? Shooting fingers needs far more practice. Why do stick bow shooters judge there distance and the majority of compound shooters use laser rangefinders. Why do stick shooters shoot instinct which require a LOT of practice and compound shooters use expensive sights. What I am getting at is that you can make the case for easy or laziness for most things. It called progression in the sport. I happens in all sports as time passes by.
Jake, crossbows aren't progression. They are regression.
You are avoiding the obvious. LOL
If compounds and all the technology that goes along with them make things so easy. Why are crossbows the weapon of choice for the handicapped and elderly.
Jake, why aren't you shooting a compound if they are so easy?
RutnStrut; There is no need to get mad. We can discuss this calmly right. You first made the statement of how easy things are and I showed you example of how that can be applied to most anything. As for me personally I shot recurve first and then in the mid 70's took up compound because in all honesty I was not very good at recurve shooting. I shot several deer with recurve but compound were all together improve sport. I shot my share of bucks and mountain lion, elk, antelope, bear boar, caribou and turkey with the compound and I loved it but in 2002 my health failed and in 2005 I lost my business and went onto disability. Now crossbows are what I hunt with and I thank God that I still can hunt and enjoy the woods. Yes crossbows are easier but a lot of things improved in the 50 plus years that I have been hunting. I personal choice for me was that I never used mechanical releases. The compound that I was last shooting was 220fps. Now crossbows are a different animal. Now I am not fond of crossbows either but it gets me out in the woods. They are awkward heavy and one shot bows. for hunting 40 yards is my max and 20 and under is the norm. Oh yes there are ads mostly by Ravin which I bet go out of business within the next few years that you can shoot a 100 yards. YES, you can shoot ANY distance same as a compound at paper but the deer determines the distance and after 40yards which is stretching it the deer can move and there are twigs that you can miss seeing all together. Now I know your next question that I have no dog in the fight. Well I happen to be of German descent so I am stubborn. I have no idea why everyone think that compounds are God's gift to the hunting world when I watch exact same thing happen when stick shooters watch compounds come to be. Same brew ha ha and all. My advise is to let everyone enjoy the woods and let the DNR worry about the population. That is why I am in favor of a one buck any weapon idea. it would put people back where they should be for the right reason instead of one upping. By the way I also believe that since speed sells I hope that some powers that be put a limit on the speed of archery weapon. 400fps would be fine by me. I will never shoot more than 350fps but some think that they need more. Sorry for the long windedness but I love bowhunting. I live for it. Ask my wife.
Jake, you continually turn the conversation to things that do not matter. Compound bows are not in question and are not under scrutiny to have their allowed use season altered. But I regress. As Rut asked, why is the crossbow even considered for use by some when a compound is so easy?
Cap I just explained it and there is nothing wrong with history. Be a little respectful of your predecessors like Bear, Hill Pope and Young. Bowhunting has a lot of favors so savor it. Again Stick bow shooters let Compound into the archery season which are vastly improved so try to not be so hypocritical when something comes into your world. That is essentially what bugs me about your attitude.
"That is essentially what bugs me about your attitude." I really do not care what bugs you. The potential for crossbows to affect my archery season is what bugs me and what I fight against. So, for the fourth time, if a compound bow is so easy, why do you or anyone else choose a crossbow instead? For the challenge of cocking it before you go out to hunt? For the challenge of lifting into your stand before you rest it on a rail to look through it's scope? Just for it's cool look with that AR lower? Don't be modest or shy, embrace your laziness. Flaunt it openly, don't thinly veil it behind some obtuse argument that has no merit or standing. Come out of the crossbow closet!!
Yes, I can see that it is ONLY about you and how it effects you. I hunted with a three weapons and explained it in detail why I shoot crossbow.
"I hunted with a three weapons and explained it in detail why I shoot crossbow." I picked up where you left off.
Scroll up a bit and I have my story and I did that because Rutnstrut asked me. Yes it is a long read but I have been hunting a long time.
Jake they are not archery. Use them in the gun season and Im good.
Gun = stock / xgun=stock / archery bow = no stock
Gun = powered scope / xgun = powered scope / archery bow = no powered scope
Gun = loaded / xgun = loaded / archery bow = manual draw
Gun = rest on shooting rail / xgun = rest on shooting rail / archery bow = no resting
Penqium what matters to you never occurred to me.LOL
Jake said -
"majority of compound shooters use laser rangefinders" - hmmm okay... MAJORITY???? brilliant!! (emotions not factual)
"compound shooters use expensive sights" - hmmmm ooookay.... EXPENSIVE SIGHTS????brilliant!!!! (again no facts just emotions)
Anyone know what scopes cost??? X guns use scopes, correct?
Keep dancing Jake.
Is there something factual in what you wrote??
Is there something factual in what you wrote?? Oh, there was question there. A used scope can cost as low as 50.00 to a good scope like a Hawke XB30 pro for a 160.00. Where you get confused is when you see bench shooters scopes which ate 100's of dollars used. Like I said they are used by bench shooters who are shooting all the way to a 100 yards. Not needed on a hunting crossbow.
Where can we pick up some scopes for archery compound/trad bow bench shooting??? Oh wait...thats right... no such things, only guns shoot from the bench.(thats factual)
Penquin, use the internt and educate yourself. It is obvious your parents failed you. By the way why does the site not have the posts numbered so you can reference them if needed. This question is for everyone accept Penquin. I don't want you to hurt yourself.
Quick question- what is "internt" (Parents dint educate me)
I'm surprised that you caught that. Apologizes to your parents. Now go on the Excalibur, Archerytalk and Crossbownation forums and get a grip on scope prices and hunting shooting distances and let see backgrounds of a few of the long standing members. I will give you one more try. Bench shooters shoot just paper. Crossbow hunters free hand it or rest their elbows on their knees when the shot presents itself. You would understand this if you would take the time to get to know one. Go several posts up and read my LONG post and you will better understand where I am coming from. How old are you? Have you ever hunted with a recurve? Have you ever went for yourself and shot a crossbow? I understand it is your way or no way but man check thing out for yourself instead of parroting others.
In all honesty I have nothing against you Jake personally and apologize. If you are legit in your claims of being disabled, I apologize again. You should use one.
All I hunt with are cedar arrows and a few recurves from a bowyer out of Montana. I shot compound for many years and became bored with the use and my passion was leaving quickly. I went to the recurve and it brought hunting back into my life with killing secondary. I despise the cross bow use in archery and voted against its use many times. I hunt with a group of five guys who are like family and three of them went to xgun purely because its easier in their words.
Happy hunting and you won't see Pasquinell on the sites you mentioned.
You shoot recurve and cedar arrows. Wow! That brings back memories. Shy, I honestly am not crazy about able bodied people shooting crossbow but it is not my business and it is just not my call to make. I started a thread on Archerytalk by the name of "Which is more important the hunter or the bow". That brought on some interesting post indeed. You and I both know that it is the hunter. Next it would be the arrow and then the bow. Most any bow crossbow or compound or recurve needs a bowhunter to be successful. I am truly impressed that you shoot recurve Pasdquinell. My name is Mike. My apologies for being to abrupt with you. Hey, google Agingcrossbower and check out my stocks for shits and giggles. If you got that recurve in your hand you must love the sport as I do. Good Hunting
Are you setting me up for a computer virus? Never trust a crossbower! My first bow was a Bear Whitetail hunter in the mid to late 70's hunting the Adirondack mountains in NY. Switched totally to recurve and wood 10 years ago??? I think??? Went back and forth with a Mathews Switchback for years and finally made the change. I have never looked back.
"Shy, I honestly am not crazy about able bodied people shooting crossbow but it is not my business and it is just not my call to make." You certainly attempted to make it your business with all your posts. Notice I said, "attempted," because you did a poor job of it. And, if you are disabled, the law already had an exemption for you, if you have ever hunted in WI.
Capt you are a dandy. By any chance are you an engineer by trade? Good night
Capt you are a dandy. By any chance are you an engineer by trade? Good night
Jake- you are one of the older fellas that feel guilty for using an xbow when actually if you are really disabled you should use one. They are easier to use and kill with so by all means you shouldn't feel as bad as you do. Please stop trying to justify using them for all hunters because it's impossible to justify pure laziness. Save your time and ours and go back to cbn.
