Bowsite.com

We will continue the fight, ans that being said, we continue to grow with more and more wanting this. More or more people reaching out to their state reps…..

It was said by the director early in this process he only hears from the people wanting change and those that are satisfied normally don’t speak out. Been watching a lot on some Facebook pages a lot more of those of us who are satisfied are speaking up - so we won’t be running away as well.

Remember what I said about 514 - time will tell - LOL it just told.

Didn’t you all get like 800 to 900 people to send messages in after the time period was extended? Again you all did a great job of rounding up the troops.

If no one kills 3, why not make it. 4 buck limit? Because we both know those 3 bucks killed numbers would jump way up….because people know they have 1 more tag…

I will ask again - didn’t you all have like 800 or so people respond to comments period after it was extended?

890-900….absolutely not….were some sent in after, yes, but most of those were from your side saying no….so the time frame was extended …..

No only about 200 comments were made during the initial comment period - then it was extended and the majority of your all’s came during the extended period if I recall correctly. You all did a running count during that time and you got people to respond - again good job.

It is true that we are getting better. To that I say you are welcome. We all owe thanks to the Better Bucks and QDMA movements for that. However, I don't see the fact that hunters in WV are embracing lower limits and letting young bucks walk as "evidence" against lowering limits or letting young bucks walk? Quite to the contrary. Let's align the bag limit with where the majority of WV hunters are at and show that we are all in together on a Quality focused management plan. Let's be the best WV we can be.

What nonsense - please explain? Just stating the truth! There was a running count of the comments. There were about 200 plus comments during the initial period. The period was extended and you all rallied the troops and got 800 plus more comments - good gracious how is saying that upsetting you so much?

E-mails kept coming in. McDaniels asked his bosses what to do. He was told that since e-mails kept coming in to take the vote off the agenda for May meeting and move it to August meeting. They wanted everyone to have the ability to let their voices be heard. They felt by giving an additional 3 months for public comments that everyone that wanted to could let their voice be heard . I think the total comment period was open about 5 months. That is as fair as it can be done

Which brings us to now…..u can say there was no corruption in the commission, side deals and such…..but it was brought out in the one…..look no further than the catxh ans release issue….straight up corruption.

Funny, everyone on your side JayD say they practice what we preach….sounds like you all just like to stir the pot…..to keep your sites open….because without BBm, your sites would sink…..all u all do is BBM this, BBM that….80% of all content is us….and by looking, tide is turning there as well…..until u all delete and ban those members…

Makes more sense for u all to jump in, embrace this , help set the stage to making deer hunting better in the Mtn state..

It appears to be well accepted for their scientific approach , data collection, and data analysis by most state Game agencies including WV DNR.

Do you have insider information on why you’re not so sure how scientific it was ? Please share your information for your informed opinion . Im sure multiple state fish and game agencies would be interested to hear your analysis and opinion if it is correct . If you are correct then maybe every state has been using the wrong company?

It appears to be well accepted for their scientific approach , data collection, and data analysis by most state Game agencies including WV DNR.

Do you have insider information on why you’re not so sure how scientific it was ? Please share your information for your informed opinion . Im sure multiple state fish and game agencies would be interested to hear your analysis and opinion if it is correct . If you are correct then maybe every state has been using the wrong company?

First off Greg didn’t mean the upset part for you - just the 2 other guys seemed a tad irritated about me asking about the extended period. Again it was fine to extend but was it really because they were overwhelmed? Again keeping track of post on Facebook and seeing the running count that was being posted and then watching the totals on the automated response - it looked like about 800 to 900 of the post were done during that time period of the extension. Which meant there were about 200 or so comments before it was extended - so that was overwhelming? Again it’s great you all rallied the troops to respond during the extended period. I see it as though you got about 5 percent of the group to respond? A group that is so passionate about change and you get 5 percent to respond. Like the director has said several times before - he will normally only hear from the people who want change and not those who are satisfied. I think you are going to see that change - I just hope that if more people start saying they are against lowering the limit - the commission will listen.

Jeremy get all the screenshots you can - it doesn’t bother me at all because like I said I made some post but I really didn’t make a huge effort to rally people I had too much on my plate with wife’s recovery and work to try to rally many. . I will tell you though that has changed and you will see me and quite a few others start rallying more people on this matter. Been talking to more legislators as well. Again I may be wrong on this but looks more like to me more people are speaking out against you all then are joining ya.

BOJ you keep speaking all this stuff about banning people and everything by my side LOL I have not banned one person. Every time I have had the chance to approve someone requesting to join a site I have accepted all. If your side wouldn’t ban and block everyone who does not agree with your one dimensional thinking and some of your outright untruths that you throw out there - well some wouldn’t be so much against you.

Again I have told Jeremy this several times - I think you all have good intentions- but I feel your way is doing more harm to our sport than good.

And I will agree with ya I think there has been some questionable stuff done as well with the surveys and comment period - and that’s all I will say about it.

So let me ask you a question who would you suspect to be the majority of the people who did not return survey? My guess would be those who are satisfied with the way things are. Think I am wrong on that?

So maybe I am wrong here but I thought I heard or read where about 1600 or so sent the survey back in - how many were sent out?

And I just don’t put too much faith in surveys anymore to be honest with ya.

To be quite honest with ya I think it was a waste of money to do. So since you asked me this commissioner- are you telling me I cannot have opinion on the subject since you are trying to be sarcastic with your questions of me?

They do email, snail mail, and phone to make sure they get a representative cross section of the population.

Your making an assumption that people satisfied will not reply. You have the right to make that assumption but that does not mean your assumption is correct.

Statistical analysis is a science.

2500 people can be surveyed that will represent 250,000 people with a confidence interval of 95% with a margin of error of +/- 2% , which is the industry standard

Can you say my assumption isn’t correct?

I think you may just be surprised here over the next few months and maybe I will be the one surprised. Like I said about 514 - time will tell just like it did with 514!

So if my assumption is right and the commission starts getting quite a few responses on not lowering the limit - will ya listen to them?

As to the manipulation, rigging, stacking and conspiracy stuff - will just leave that stuff to you all - that’s normally your go to stuff. You all never want to have a honest truthful conversation/debate anymore.

For years we have had to listen to your myths and lies about what truly is going on. LOL I did get a great chuckle though on the one post saying that now all of us need to say thank you to your groups for all the nice bucks being taken this year and the improvements being seen. That was just too rich - yep our DNR, great mast for a couple years in a row and all of those working on better land management had nothing to do with it! It was just you guys and your groups that you kick everyone out of for not agreeing to your one dimensional thinking that has resulted in this! LOL whats even funnier - you all admit improvements are happening and guess what we still have a 3 buck limit and it’s happening!

LOL let me jump on the bandwagon and do this as well ————— SMH

Just remember fellas your group was the first to start banning people who didn’t exactly agree with you. Now you get all whiny because others have done the same to you. I could care less what group it is - I personally don’t like it!

So gobbler I have a favor to ask - will you ask wv BBM group for me to be unblocked? What about you BOJ will you ask? I loved the reason the one administrator gave me for being block - it wasn’t because of anything I had done but what I might do! ROFL

Can’t wait to hear your responses. LOL

Gobbler if you recall - you got upset with me of all things - when people were asking about your bear kill - I said from what I saw you said you stalked and had no reason not to believe it and that I congratulate you. Then you made a big deal out of it saying I should have let them report. Somehow you tied me into that.

You both come on here whining about this stuff - I have been one of the only ones to stand up for either of you - even though we disagree on the limit issues.

Nice to see you won’t stick your neck out for me gobbler - shouldn’t have expected any less.

Tell you what I will continue to push for each of you to not be blocked - let’s see what you all do????

I’m not whining. You asked if I would look at all opinions , I said I would, but I have to be able to see the opinions . It’s hard to evaluate opinions if I’m blocked from seeing them

Shouldn’t be any reason why ya can’t debate and ask each other legitimate questions.

Logically, that looks suspicious and odd to me .

Tell me where I’m wrong ?

It’s simply not. Let me give you some history. Back when the DNR commission was formed WV had 6 Congressional districts. At that time it was felt there should be a commissioner from each congressional district plus 1 at large for a tie breaker if needed. Thru the decades WV lost population thus lost congressional districts. Even at 3 there was a large swarth of WV from OH border to VA border that had no Commissioner close. All of DNR district 6 and 3 had no Commissioners living there.

Then with the 2020 census results it was known we would lose another congress seat. That set up what was likely to be a northern and southern congressional district . Using previous law there could be a situation where there could be 6 commissioners in a northern district and 1 in a southern district or visa versa. That would not be a viable situation and would not be equal representation.

The powers that be felt all regions of WV should have representation.

Since DNR already had 6 districts it was decided the best and most appropriate remedy was to have 1 commissioner from each district plus 1 at large. That would be the closest plan to what the initial plan was when the commission was first formed. They wanted state wide representation. Congressional districts worked when there were 6, it wouldn’t work with 2.

Commissioners from a DNR district could more easily travel to spring sectional meetings throughout the state, plus that is required now. Again, more involvement with the public in all areas of the state.

The director has the ability to recommend people to the Governor . McDaniels could have just hand picked people but he didn’t do that. He felt it would be more appropriate and transparent if he let his staff vote. He let 2 people from Wildlife services, 2 from DNR LE, 2 from state parks, and 2 from administration vote on the candidates. Those are the 4 main divisions of DNR. He recused himself from the administrative vote.

Then they voted on candidates for each district and the at large position. The winners of the votes were then sent to governor . These were only suggestions, as the Governor has the final say in appointments.

That’s why the commission bill was done and how it was carried out.

You have every right to continue to believe in conspiracy theories but these are the facts as to why the commission was revamped and how candidates got sent to the Governor to either approve or appoint anyone else he wanted . Commissioners serve at will and pleasure of the Governor . WV state code gives the Governor the ability to appoint anyone and get rid of anyone at anytime of his choosing with no explanation required .

Let me give you a little history:

1- Before 514 - stated by quite a few of you it had nothing to do with buck limit vote.

2- then a few even stated don’t know if or when the limit issue would ever come up again.

3- 514 passes - 2 no votes to lowering the limit do not get reappointed

4- 2 new commissioners are both on the BBM page.

5- 3 months after new commission selected - someone brings the lower limit back into it(we all no who). LOL must admit I was the big loser on the bet - I said it would happen at the very first meeting with the new commission - but I was only a bit off….. LOL

Sorry I haven’t come up with any answers from the group but again I am just someone who requested on to the page - don’t know who the administrator or moderators are. It’s not like I can twist their arm. If I knew though I would tell you and not give you the run around like has happened from others on this forum.

If you want you can ask Jeremy if I have been trying - I think he would back me on that I have been.

I just found out at this last meeting that at least one maybe both joined several FB sites after being appointed to see what sportsmen are talking about. 1 had a background in fishing and 1 in trapping and they wanted to expand upon that. I think they are taking their position seriously and want to see what all the outdoor groups are talking about. I think that is a good thing . Both told me personally they want to look at both sides on the buck issue. That’s what should be done. Decisions should be based on biology, public opinions , and finances, not what someone tells you to do. It would be nice if I could see the other side too, but , whatever

Nayarit, I know you don’t believe it but I for one hate the blocking crap - I like communicating - it’s the only way we will ever agree or at least to agree to disagree. I have been trying to communicate with the page and plan to do one more thing this evening. That’s all I can I do.

And I may be wrong but I think one has been a member of the One Facebook page for several years. I could be wrong.

482 for reduction 104 against

Mirrors that of southwick survey , the call in survey and most BBM is banned / blocked from that site, and it run by a fake person who deletes anything pro reduction….not sure how this made it.

Change is coming…..

482 for reduction 104 against

Mirrors that of southwick survey , the call in survey and most BBM is banned / blocked from that site, and it run by a fake person who deletes anything pro reduction….not sure how this made it.

Change is coming…..

Again how many people in WV don’t have the internet. How many who do are on these pages? I think the more passionate ones will be and these numbers don’t surprise me at all. Troops are rallying though - I don’t think the fight is over just yet.

Again tell me why it should be lowered? Let’s see you first told me that too many hunters were killing 3 bucks and they were all spikes. Buzzzzzz wrong!

Then you say well all these people will hold off and not kill a small buck and hold on to their tags. Good old NDA report shows even one buck states the majority of hunters still kill 1.5 and 2.5 year olds. Pretty much the same stats as here in good ole WV. If all these hunters are going to hold on to their tags why do young bucks make up the majority of the harvest in KY, OH and TN? LOL more fake news

I believe there will be a photo album of all these nice bucks being harvested and they will be sent to our politicians and commissioners - just so they can see what’s out there instead of the ole fake news report that like to be touted by some.

Good gracious everything you guys put out there as fact always comes back as not being true…..

I have been meaning to ask you - the project you started several years ago - I believe it was for a yellow warbler - how is it going? Are you see anymore of that bird at your place? I don’t know if you heard and maybe it was across the state but I think it was mainly here in the eastern panhandle - we were having quite a few bird dying . I do love some of the projects you have started! Land and timber management is where it’s at!

Now we have a few years of a not so good mast crop - bet we won’t see as many nice ones harvested.

Also over an 18 year span the buck harvest has dropped by 60,000! Happened without dropping the limit to 1 or 2. During that time period we have added more trophy areas for those who like to hunt more mature bucks - even though mature bucks are being harvested all across the state.

I think you all have good intentions I really do. I think if you all would open your eyes a little wider and see what is actually going on - you would see the things you wish to happen are happening.

The bird issue was limited to the eastern panhandle. Crum told me they sent the dead birds off to be tested. They tested for every disease known to man but still couldn’t find anything. 90% + were juvenile birds. Rest of state didn’t have the problem

The question is why. The last couple of seasons the buck kill came in 10-15 thousand bucks lower than predicted by DNR each year. That’s 20-30 thousand bucks that survived.

Those deer lived and continued to grow and get older. Instead of getting killed at 2.5 or 3.5 they turned into 4.5 and 5.5. They actually got a chance to mature and with that maturity came larger antlers. That’s what happens . We are killing good quality mature bucks throughout the state. That proves we have the habitat and genes to produce good quality bucks if only they can make it to maturity.

This year should put to rest the thoughts we don’t have the genetics or habitat that’s required to produce good quality bucks IF they can live long enough.

There’s a lot of excitement among hunters because of what they are seeing, getting on cameras, seeing on FB etc.

That is a good thing. It would be nice if that happened every year and it could with a different management plan.

Unfortunately, we’ve seen this happen several times in the past .

For whatever reason, mast crop, bad weather , etc., we’ll have a couple of years of decreased harvest then get a year of mast failure, good weather , and since deer are out in fields and moving more to find food we get a big harvest then we’re back to ground zero. And the cycle starts again.

I think it would be better for hunters, license sales , etc. if it weren’t a cyclical occurrence but a yearly occurrence.

I haven’t seen any dead birds but just going by what I see around here - it seems like we are not seeing as many birds.

Sleepy Creek WMA over the past 30 years has seen a lot of habitat improvement projects - has helped all animals not just the specific animal they targeted for the project.

Again that is what I would like to see more of.

I like seeing the habitat projects you have done on your place.

What is the long term plan for these areas? Re cut every so many years?

How did you go about determining where to do them?

I think you are going to get your wish and the limit will be reduce but when we get those couple of years in a row where mast isn’t so good - because of it some areas will get over browsed and we don’t see the numbers of the kind of bucks being posted the past few years - i bet again we will see oh we have to lower the limit again instead of open your eyes to what is really happening.

As to the cycle stuff - it’s not limited to just WV it happens in others states as well - just not to the degree it happens in WV because we are almost 80 percent forest.

You don’t think I give age credit - I don’t think you give the habitat, soil and nutrition enough credit as to what is happening. I don’t think either one of us will change. Again just a difference of opinion but I think the numbers support me more! LOL

There’s a program thru NRCS for these projects. DNR works with and gets paid by NRCS to provide a biologist for the programs.

They have criteria for site selection, minimum size, trees to save, trees to cut, etc.

2 things I’ve learned, you need a forester that is trained in wildlife management. It’s not all about volume of timber but the main goal of wildlife management with a secondary goal of timber.

2. You need to find a logger that is willing to work with you and within parameters of program. One of the programs for cerulean Warbler you save the best and biggest red oak and white oak. Which is what most loggers want .

Those last 2 pictures were from last year. This year the forest floor has exploded with green browse

Thinking in terms of the terrain and where you have good access to stand locations for certain winds and such?

I’m spreading these out across the farm to provide prime habitat and sanctuary areas for the future

With the next cut planned to start first of Dec. I’ll have about 50 acres in early successional habitat. That’s a little less than 10% of farm. For now I think that will be a good mix. I have about 12 acres in food plots . Diversity of habitat is the key and early successional habitat is probably the most important. Early successional habitat beats food plots hands down for browse production on a yearly basis. Foodplots definitely have their place at certain points in a year.

I agree with diversity being key. Sounds like a great setup. Hope to do some of that type of work around here someday.

And I'm not sure that cherry picking the best deer from each county for a photo album is a great way to prove your point.

What we said would work, a lower buck kill, has worked miraculously this year.

There is only one thing that hasn’t changed and one thing only and that is the limit has been 3 all during this!

We have had low harvest before! Like I have stated before - our gun harvest has dropped by 60,000 per year over an 18 year period.

We have had good mast crop for about 4 years in a row. I have never witnessed a period of 4 years of good mast in a row! And when we get those few years of low mast - following years won’t be so good.

It is amazing how ill-informed your group is and how some have mislead people. Again you shouted from the mountain top for years that every bubba and every non-resident killed 3 spikes. Numbers came out and has shown about 1/3rd of 1 percent of hunters kill 3 bucks. Heck a lot of the people on your page still believe we have huge numbers of people killing 3 bucks! Of course some of you have instead turn to the answer of - well since hardly anyone uses the tag let’s just eliminate it. It’s Just too much how you flip answers when the facts do not back up your stories!

Then it was - oh well young bucks make up the majority of our harvest. Numbers from NDA show that even in 1 buck limit states - young bucks make up the majority of the harvest! So much for that - oh we lower the limit and hunters will hold on to their tags for a big one and let those young ones walk!

Just once it would be nice for you to come up with at least one thing that is factual!

You are trying to correlate three buck limit with the better year we are having and lower harvest, then why hadn't it happened before? Why is the bow harvest the same? And don't tell me the oak mast because oak mast lowers bow harvest typically.

I do feel many hunters kill any buck they see then hunt for something else. I'm pretty sure the three spike argument is yours, not mine. I'm pretty sure the one buck argument with me is yours, not mine. Straw man's to fit your rationale.

Seriously you think the only decline in buck harvest has been the last few seasons? Again since 2003 or 2002 - the buck gun harvest has dropped by 60,000! It’s done so and a 3 buck limit has been in place. Now am I correlating into it’s been the reason why - NO!!! Again NO!!!! What I am saying that it has happened with a 3 buck limit though!

And once again for about the past 4 years we have seen a pretty good mast crop - when one type of mast has been lower there has been several others that have done well. I have not ever seen that for 4 or 5 years in a row. Normally I have seen spaced in there at some point years where there was just low mast across the board. So yes it has made a difference the past few years.

I was going to make a comment in return on your straw man’s comment but I will let it pass.. Just once would like to see a debate without the smart butt comments.

So going to post some numbers from a screenshot of a message sent to me - I have not had the chance to verify yet - but if true that lowering the limit to two will help with more mature bucks for all - ummm why has TN seen a drop in trophy entrees since they lowered their limit? Umm from what I have seen on social media - it looks to me like WV has seen more trophy killed - ummm during a time that we still have a 3 buck limit. Going to see if I can find the number of trophy entrees for WV here the past few years. Over the next few days.

The numbers in the pic are what was sent to me on TN’s entrees.

I will admit you have looked at the TN numbers much more than me so does this guys numbers look correct for the previous years?

After I get thru this busy period of work and November hunting I am going to dive into these numbers.

With all due respect I’m going to put more validity from the Chief Game and Fish Commissioner from TN Game and Fish on this matter

I will however reach out and see if I can get permission to do so .

But I would think you could say what would be disputed without showing what he sent.

Jeremy let’s start with me and you and try to get the conversations more civil. I know you want that as much as me.

746 for 164 against

I actually got a reply back from the one moderator earlier today and he said that the Jason fella is a real person and not made up. I will tell you exactly what he said - he said it is lies from BBM that the guys account is a fake one. That was him and not me. Said that the others were jealous because their page is growing so fast.

Take that for what it is worth. Again the guy reply to my query those are not my words. Again I am just a member - so have no clue if it’s the truth or not.

Again the poll doesn’t surprise me at all - I am actually going to do a little h polling on there want to see just how much these fellas know.

However, I’ve heard Greg make declarations that there will be a buck limit change. All of us here has heard it. There maybe a copy or two of it stored away or floating around. Even after he deleted the comments. Are we supposed to believe he cares about anything but that?

We watched the politics with previous crossbow votes to get this cornered. And, then read here where the commissioner we supposedly cares about what other hunters want? I don’t believe that no matter how many millions of times he states it. He’s declared that. So, I’m forced to believe him. I’m not being hateful or mean. I’m simply regurgitating his own words.

With all that said, I truly don’ t care about lowering it. I think it’s economically stupid to suggest it. I think it takes a know it all attitude to over rule the data that suggests it’s economic madness to reduce it. I think it’s beyond common sense to see the harvest data and still insist we try it. Blatantly, it’s just selfish.

But, I’m not going to argue about it anymore. Nor am I trying instigate and argument. But, I do believe in living by your words. And, not what you want people to feel.

If people have changed their outlook since then I’m willing to concede it’s possible. But, I’m a two weapon hunter and I intend to ensure I get that ability in the future. As well as all the up coming hunters.

Financially , the Commission got the fiscal report along with all the income sources, grants, PR money, gas lease money, revenue from wildlife endowment fund, etc., etc., budget, total income and total expenditures. Not sure where your getting information from about economic impact but reasonable minds can disagree on what is economic madness. I think you may be surprised as to what the actual percentage is in relation to total budget with the loss of 3rd buck tag sales .

DNR is not a stock that has to pay dividends to the owners. The dividends are the sportsmen and sportswomen receiving what they want.

Again, I’m not wanting to argue or be smart but we got the actual numbers .

I think the numbers of who wants what is likely where the poll says it is. It’s impossible to get it wrong unless it was cooked from the beginning. Which I don’t believe it was.

Like I said before, there are reasons the bucks limit is likely to change. And, it has little to do with what any survey says. You politicized it from your appointment due to your own priority. There is no denying it. It isn’t a gotcha point. It’s what you said. And, it’s reality. Regardless of the validation you are using now.

That isn’t a smart guy response. Nor an arguing point. It’s the truth in black and white print.

Good hunting gentlemen.

You routinely state how few people kill a third buck. So few it just won't work. You state you are a two weapon hunter. For every two weapon hunter, after they shoot their first archery buck they have to make the decision if the second buck with archery is worth missing out on gun season for bucks. Every hunter who kills two bucks in archery is done. That number greatly surpasses your number if third bucks killed being the only deer we are saving. We simply don't see in harvest data what is actually protected. We can't see with kill numbers what someone else decided to pass.

I just don’t understand why Southwick is regarded as the gold standard by every other state including WV DNR on every other survey and statistical analysis they do on public opinion , EXCEPT, what people want for a buck limit. When it’s the buck limit , it’s not accurate, doesn’t include enough people, is biased, etc., etc., etc., .

It just seems odd that everything else they do is great and awesome except the buck limit survey .

Maybe it’s more about the survey not turning out how some people wanted it to turn out rather than it being a bad survey . Just a thought .

You can look it up, a truly RANDOM survey of 2500 people can give you the same results of surveying 250,000 people down to +/- 2 with a confidence interval of 95%. That’s the standard any survey company goes by

I am not saying that is good or bad. I am glad people are out enjoying the outdoors. It is just something that I have noticed. Who knows, all of them may have been killed anyway if all of the hunters were using compounds. I can’t speak to their intentions for being selective or not on any additional bucks either.

However, I can say that all 10 bucks were at least 3.5 but most were most likely 4.5 +. So they were not killing the first 1.5 year old bucks they saw.

As to the Southwick survey - how many surveys were sent out? How many were return? Oh do you know if a person can contact the dnr and ask for a copy of the survey questions and get the results as well?

My big question is why can't our DNR send out simple email to people who buy licenses - saying something like X number of people deer hunt in WV and this is the number of deer we estimate to be in WV - this number of people kill 1 buck and this number kill 2 and this number kill 3. Then ask if they feel the limit should be lowered. They can send out an email just like they do the email letting people know about the gold rush. Give people accurate info instead letting all these people think every bubba and every non-resident kill 3 small bucks. Heck I had a conversation several weeks ago with a fan of one of the pages you like and are active with - the person said out-staters kill more bucks than West Virginians! LOL its not even close!

I just love how reducing the limit is going to have all these people holding on to their tags - my question is if this is true - then why do 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks make up the majority of bucks harvested in states like OH and KY? - I wish someone would come out with how many people hunt and how many bucks are killed. How many hunters buy an extra tag and compare it with how many hunters kill multiple bucks. Wouldn't those be some interesting facts?

DNR has many sources of income

Not only will lowering the limit hurt the sale of the extra tags - wouldn’t you say the people buying them are probably hardcore hunters - will probably go to other states and spend their money there on food, gas and whatever else - instead of putting into the WV economy? It’s not just the lost of tag revenue.

Of course I find it strange that now it’s not the money - I could have swore I remember that being one of the points in favor of lowering the limit - that the DNR was losing funds from hunters leaving to go to other states to hunt bigger bucks.

People forget about the sociology aspect of the initial white paper the DNR wrote about lowering the limit. People will likely change their mindset on what they will kill with a lower limit. They can still kill what they want if they chose but are more likely to be more selective. That is where the difference will be, not the 700 or whatever 3rd bucks killed. There’s some studies that suggest that by being more selective ( either self imposed or regulations imposed ) that hunters actually stay in the woods longer and hunt more.

JayD, have u ever hunted out of state ? I may be wrong but I thought I had remembered something about that from years ago ?

Let me tell u a story about Missouri last year. They have a 2 buck limit, 1 archery, 1 gun. The county I was hunting had antler restrictions. I was talking to a lady hunter in her 50s one night after hunting. We were talking about their antler restrictions. She asked how many bucks we could kill in WV and I told her 3. Then she asked how big they had to be and I told her 3 inches. She burst out laughing and said that’s funny, really, how big do they have to be ? She actually thought I was joking. When she finally figured out I wasn’t she said that’s crazy, no wonder you drove out here to hunt . That’s embarrassing, and it’s not the first time I’ve got that response. I’ve gotten it several times hunting out of state without saying anything when they find I’m from WV. Deer hunters know about the bow counties and the deer coming from there but think the 3 buck limit with no ARs in the rest of the state is crazy and I’ve had several tell me that is why they would never come here to deer hunt. It’s embarrassing to me and it’s embarrassing for our state that deer hunters think that.

Our hunters want it, why deny or fight against what the majority of our OWN WV hunters want ?

Some studies huh - ok - any studies been done yet asking the hunters who buy the extra tags if they will go to other states and spend money there instead of spending it here in WV?

It sounds good to say kill more bucks to keep risk low.

But it’s more complex than that. Bucks are twice as likely to have or express signs of CWD the older they get. Last study I saw was like a 16% incidence rate in 4.5 yr old bucks. I think that was in a Michigan study. In same study a doe at 4.5 had 8% incident rate.

So if you had 100 4.5 year old bucks then 16 would have CWD

If you had 100 4.5 year old does you would have 8 does with CWD

Even with a fairly good 4 doe to 1 buck ratio that would give you 16 bucks and 32 doe out of 500 deer ( 100 4.5 bucks and 100 4.5 does).

So even with bucks having higher individual incidence of CWD because of more does than bucks there’s probably more does overall with it.

Older bucks tend to get selected and removed because each year they get larger antlers up to 6 or 7.

That doesn’t really happen with does 99% of hunters can’t tell the difference between a 2.5 yr old doe and a 5.5 year old doe.

The Michigan study suggested that older matriarch does in a family group may be infecting younger deer because of the constant grooming and licking they do. They theorized that yearling bucks may be getting infected then when they disperse from the family group to set up their own home area may be responsible for spreading the disease.

So, maybe focusing more on does rather than bucks may do more to slow the spread ?

Whatever happens , if the entire focus is only on bucks then you’re only focusing on half the problem .

I think to really have an effect on limiting spread there needs to be more emphasis on does because bucks tend to get all the focus because as they get older and bigger they get taken out already by hunters .

I don’t think there is a 100% perfect answer because we don’t know enough about CWD yet

We have lots of 2 weapon hunters. My biggest concern is the number of bucks being taken out of the herd before rut. The crossbow is DEFINITELY playing a role in that. There HAS to be enough bucks to breed does to sustain a population. Contrary to popular belief a single big stud buck doesn’t breed dozens of does. The average buck (big or small) successfully breeds about 3 does during the rut. But the crossbow is here to stay because Legislature got involved. That’s why I don’t want Legislature getting involved in setting buck limit.

I honestly don’t know if it’s too many right now. IDK how many deer we have. I asked the DNR 2.5 months before this last commission meeting to provide the commission with a population estimate per county. They do spotlight surveys and have estimates based on the number of deer checked in. That’s how they determine if a county is open to doe hunting, the number of does allowed, and whether it’s an “earn a buck “ county. Despite asking for the information with plenty of lead time no population data was presented.

I used data from a couple of years ago and it was something like 35-39% of bucks killed were checked in before rifle season started.

IDK where the cutoff is as to what percentage would have to be before reproduction was affected but it’s something I am concerned about . I’m not saying it’s there yet, I honestly don’t know but it’s something that’s going to have to be watched closely .

I do know that if 35-39% of gobblers were killed in the spring before breeding that would very likely affect reproduction . I do know I’m seeing more and more crossbow kills every year. They have as much right to hunt with crossbows as anyone with any legal weapon . I do know the archery/crossbow kill is buck heavy and with the efficiency and distance of the newer crossbows I don’t see that trend declining.

The buck kill in 2020 was 38,785 , the archery/ crossbow kill in 2020 was 31,594 and was buck heavy. You do the math .

I think it would be foolish not to be looking at that. I had other commissioners expressing the same concern to me at last meeting .

As to crossbows and all these deer being killed according to the numbers that isn’t happening. I must admit I was shocked by that as well - I seriously thought much more would be killed.

Since 2000 up until last year about 1000 more bucks are killed each year. I was shocked as well when I heard that number. In 2000 around 18,400 bucks were killed now it 19,400. Oh for those wondering the total bow kill for deer in 2000 was 30700+ and in 2020 it was 31500+. I think this sort of shows that at least archery is staying stable at least.

So once again the facts are that since around 2000 up until 2020 the gun season rifle harvest has decline by more 60,000 and the archery went up by 1000. Some of ya can say it was for this reason or that reason but the fact is the buck harvest has dropped drastically.