Delaware Water Gap Rec re-listing
Pennsylvania
The Sierra Club is heading up a push to have the Delaware Water Gap National RECREATION Area relisted as a National Park. ~70K acres currently open to hunting would be lost. Have no fear BHA is monitoring the situation. Tried to get more info from the what monitoring means, but they gets me labled a troublemaker. At any rate contact your federal rep and senators.
I just goggle BHA & Delaware Water Gap Recreation Area. Here what I got, I copied and pasted the link that Google had on this situation.
If this happened it would affect 1000's of hunters. I'm going to start, researching and learning more on this.
https://www.backcountryhunters.org/delaware_water_gap_nra
So they want to plan it after WV's New River Gorge. That as relisted as a National Park and 90% remained open as a preserve. Don Miles of the PA Chapter of Sierra Club mentioned that the re-listing could grow if state parks are added.
Don’t ever forget that BHA was a prominent supporter of its “Sister Org” Sierra club.
The UBP and neighboring state orgs like NY and Md need to come out IMMEDIATELY against this takeover, and that is exactly what it is. With the millions of acres of land owned by Pa- SGL’s, State Forests, State Parks, watershed orgs, the Sierra Club and the supporters of FEDERAL control, are licking their chops at the chance for Federal takeover of PA’s lands. And effectively beginning a start to the end to public land hunting.
You want rising membership numbers UBP? Get ahead of this NOW!
Dale,
I mentioned on BHA's FB page about being kissing cousins with SC and Western Conservation Fund. It was not well received.
I need to dig around a bit on HuntingPA.com. That is were I originially saw it. I believe there was a PA rep or two mentioned in support of it.
Most of their members today weren’t members when they salivated over the Sierra Club family.
Back in the 90's when I used to write a monthly column on animal rights for the UBP's letter, I warned the membership about Agenda 2021. I received a few letters from members calling me a wackjob conspiracy theorist. I also warned the Bowsite members on the main forum, and was laughed at by most, especially those from the western states. Agenda 2021 was renamed Agenda 2030...and here we are. I venture to guess none of you knew what Agenda 2021 was, nor do any of you know what Agenda 2030 is. Most hunters are clueless. If little ole' me saw this coming 30 years ago, why didn't any of our organizations see this coming?
Isn’t part of this called 20-30-30 where the feds plan to own 30% of all land in the US by 2030? Then it morphs into 30-50-50 where Feds want 50% of US land property by 2050. It’s something like that… yes?
Dale, ever here of the Wildlands Project & Wildlife Corridors, and how those areas would be off limits to humans? Ole' Bob warned of that 30 years ago as well.
What the hell did I know?
https://nwri.org/the-wildlands-project/
Yes Dale, you're correct.
Ever hear of the World Economic Forum & The Great Reset? They're the ones calling the shots for Joe Biden. That's who we're up against.
http://www.agenda21course.com/lesson-3-wildlands-project/
OK guys....Whether Agenda 2021, 2030, The Great Reset is a real deep state conspiracy, is for another thread. This re-listing IS real and deserves attention.
Hey Bowbender, maybe you should take a deep dive looking into it before you dismiss it as a conspiracy theory.
Bob,
Maybe you missed the part where I said whether it's a deep state conspiracy or not, is for another thread. I didn't dismiss it. I said it's for another thread. THIS threat is real.
I'm guessing your hamstrings are pretty sore from jumping to conclusions?? Wear should I send the Advil and Icy-Hot?
No, you didn't say whether or not.
You said, and I quote, "Whether Agenda 2021, 2030, The Great Reset is a real deep state conspiracy, is for another thread. This re-listing IS real and deserves attention."
You emphasized IS using caps. Your words "IS real," insinuates that.my comment isn't real.
Had you actually said whether or not, I wouldn't have replied to you.
Whether
- expressing a doubt or choice between alternatives. "he seemed undecided whether to go or stay"
- expressing an inquiry or investigation (often used in indirect questions). "I'll see whether she's at home"
-indicating that a statement applies whichever of the alternatives mentioned is the case. "I'm going whether you like it or not"
See Karen, it implied an investigation between the alternatives. And no, it didn't imply it's not real. It implied an inquiry or research between the two, which should be saved for another thread. And while your opinion of a deep state narrative may or may not have merit, this one, the re-listing is not an opnion, it's not conjecture, it's real. And it's happening right now. Now hurry up, or you'll miss the end of Alex Jones.
Whether you believe in the Great Reset or not, this needs our attention.
To be honest when I start see political BS stuff. I just loose all interest in what the subject is all about. It would be better if both sides tried to fight it together. Instead of working together, one side attacks the other. I've alway been active with stuff like this, but I'm about done. Years ago we all work together on stuff like this, NOW??? With this and other stuff going on here in Pa. I'm just banging my head against a wall, time to stop. Ed
A second post with insults. Maybe one day you'll meet this Karen...
Ed, if you don't think this proposal is political then you haven't been paying attention. Ditto for you Mr. Kruschinsky. Serious questions. Since hunting, mining, or any other extractive or non-recreational commercial use is not permitted within a national park what individuals, companies, and organizations will reap a financial benefit? Who are we supposed to fight against in regards to this, other than the Sierra Club? Who are all the players? Whose money are we really going against? Which politicians & what political organization, and activists would financially benefit from this? What foreign entities would benefit?
Bob, I don't have answers to everything you you asked. But In Pa this area is mostly in Pike and Monroe counties, which is primarily Republican counties. With that being said, most businesses in them counties are Republican owned. Go ask them business owners how they feel about in becoming a National park. Which will surly bring much higher traffic ($) to this area how they feel. Yes if it becomes a National park it will even bring in more $ from foreigners. Many locals surly don't want to see this traffic, as well as the locals that hunt on this vast area. Some being from the right and some being from the left.. I'm sure that the area politicians will love to see the federal $$$/jobs ( for their friends) coming in if it becomes a National Park. To me I see a loss of a ton of hunting land for others that hunt on it. To this day I never hunted on it and there's a good chance I never of would of. For me if this becomes a National Park it's really not going to chance my life, but was willing to help try to keep it the way it is. I'm tired of all the political & conspiracy bs. I'm out!
To me it doesn;t matter who is behind this, it's just a bad idea! I live about 4 miles from the northern border of the DWGNRA in Pike Co. I've lived here over 30 years and moved here for the rural lifestyle/atmosphere. The last 2 years we saw a HUGE influx of people from NYC and Northern NJ trying to escape the COVID lockdowns where they live. It put a HUGE strain on our resources/infrastructure. I would drive by the parking areas to the hiking trails and the McDade railtrail along Route 209 and you could not find a parking space. ANd not just on the weekends- this was a DAILY occurance (even during the week). The NPS had to put up barricades and traffic cones to keep people from parking on the shoulder of the road. And it was not just a few of the more popular trails- it was every parking area from Milford down to Bushkill.
As things have started to open up, it has eased somewhat during the week, but the weekends are still seeing the hoards of people. IMHO, this is just a preview of what is to come if the DWGNRA is transformed into a National Park. I think what attracts people to this area is the undeveloped natural environment...................they want to get out on a trail and experience nature and avoid the overcrowded, hustle and bustle of the city. But that is hard to do when every parking lot and trail is packed with people! And building new infrastructure and public amenities will just bring more visitors and put more pressure on the infrastructure. Just look at many of our National Parks for examples- they have become little "cities" in the Summer............................with all the problems that people are trying to escape from!
As the one article pointed out, there is still a lot of distrust of the Federal Government ever since they took over the area back in the 60's for the (now)abandoned Tock's Island Project. Much of the land that eventually became the DWGNRA was aquired by Eminent Domain and has been used by the public, very successfully for almost 60 years. But there is still a lot of resentment by the 600 some families that were displaced. So I would not expect a lot of local support for this initiative.
And I would not expect a lot of support for anything that would take any amout of available hunting land away from public use.
"Maybe one day you'll meet this Karen..."
Say When..
Look Bob, you saw this post as a chance to bring up the Agenda 21, Iluminati, etc Bravo Sierra. This is a current threat. It's real. Contact your federal reps. Let them know how you feel about the re-listing. Be sure to bring up the connection to Agenda 2030 or 2021. They'll just smile as they delete your email. You wanna make this thread about you and your opinions on global conspiracies and how no one listens to you. Start your own thread about Agenda 2030. This one is about the relisting of 70K acres.
You haven't a clue as to why I made that post, and you're still clueless about it. You, and the rest of the uninformed can keep thinking we're living in the same world we were in 2 years ago. Go ahead and make those calls & emails to your representatives.
Being that the US Congress has to vote on the change...
US House District 8 is where the DWGNRA resides in PA. PA 8th district is Matt Cartwright. Check out his top donor and look into what they're all about. https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/matt-cartwright/summary?cid=N00034128
https://www.lcv.org/endorsements/
US House District 5 is where the DWGNRA resides in NJ. That's represented by Josh Gottheimer. https://ballotpedia.org/Josh_Gottheimer
https://gottheimer.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1318
https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/josh-gottheimer/summary?cid=N00036944 (If you don't know who Blackrock is and all they're involved in, you haven't a clue).
Will Cartwright listen to you, or, is he going to do what his largest donor wants him to do?
NJ's 2 US Senators are Bob Menendez (D) & Corey Booker (D). We already know how they'll vote on it. PA's 2 US Senators are Bob Casey (D) & Pat Toomey (R). We know how Casey will vote but Toomey is always a wildcard. If the vote happens after the midterms and John Fetterman replaces Toomey, we know Fetterman will vote for it.
Will Casey, or Toomey/Fetterman listen to you?
I know EXACTLY why you made the post. It's an effort to play "I told you so." Please start your own thread so folks can ignore you there and stop pi$$ing on this one looking for attention.
This is a real credible threat to ~70K acres of hunting land currently open. So either take off your tin foil hat and at least make an effort, or go back to your computer and Alex Jones et al websites, where y'all can sit around nodding your heads, mumbling Hmmm, whispering "that's right brother, that's so right..."
Emails and phone conversations to my state reps/Senator. Unfortunately neither Casey nor Toomey, Conor Lamb, nor Fetterman have any interest in supporting any form of hunting in my opinion.
Okay, I tried. Don't follow the money. Don't try to stop the money flow going to those who are receiving it. Go right ahead and complain to the very people who are on the receiving end of the money.
Anybody have any more info on how it impacted WV hunters at New River Gorge? It says 90% preserve open to hunting, but did they lose hunting opportunity or simply name changes. I don't care what they classify the area as, but don't see why hunting couldn't remain. After the leaves lose color in fall and the rafts stop running there is hardly anybody here. If it wouldn't be for hunters there would practically be nobody utilizing. Few day hikers, that's about it. Once you move away from the river and McDade trail, not much to the park/recreation area.
The rec area has expanded some in the last few years by acquiring private land, but I don't see them expanding by gaining state land. Not in PA anyway. Our local SGL and SF have been expanding and seem to be doing well on their own. No way PA is turning them over to Feds. I don't think we have any state parks, sgl, or SF that even border the DWG.
As for the Agenda 21or30 that Bob referenced, you'll have to call me clueless. I never heard of it. Only thing I understood from all those posts was the wackjob conspiracy theorist comment.
Jethro- the proponents of converting it to National Park status say that it is basically a name change with some infrastructure improvements and also Increased funding. But from what I can see, that is NOT the case! I found an article that says Hunters lost 10% of the land with the change at New River Gorge and funding did NOT increase.
I just don’t see the need to make this a National Park. It is more suited as a NRA.....................let’s keep it that way.
You may try to minimize the impact in the winter months Jethro, but you can’t deny the impact it is having the other 8 months of the year. This is much bigger than just a hunting issue. Those of us who live here year round and have to deal with it on a daily basis are very concerned! But if you are only spending some weekends here in the Fall when the impact is lower, you probably don’t get the true impact of what is happening.
I agree with you 100% Rut. I see no reason to change and that especially rings true if a major driving force is more funding and that didn't prove to be the case in WV. At this point I was merely looking at it from the standpoint of we may not be able to stop the reclassification and if that is the case I wanted done in a way that preserves hunting. I believe that is possible, but it has to be a major focus point from the outset, not an afterthought. Locals opposition to the reclassification will most likely carry more weight than just hunter opposition. I sent my opinion to Cartwright, but I don't think much of him.
I don't live by the DWG, but I'm next to it everyday. I'm in my office right now, 150 yards from the park border. Don't hunt it like I used to, but still occasionally. I understand more people, good for business owners, but how many more can we pack in here. We already know large numbers are visiting and enjoying the park, no sense increasing till the surrounding infrastructure can't handle it, and we're close already. 209 traffic is a chit show just from commuter traffic alone. Bushkill area, I rarely get up your way.
OK- so you see what we are facing. Glad to hear it!
Yep- anybody that has travelled Route 209 knows it's a s*** show! It's one big NO PASSING ZONE from Bushkill all the way(29 miles) to Milford. All it takes is one oversized RV or a senior citizen that can barely see, to hold up a line of traffic from here to Dingman's Ferry! Last month I was several cars behind one from NJ. He averaged 37 mph all the way from Bushkill to Dingman's Ferry(in a 45 mph zone). Talk about torture..................... And now we have that subsidence between Dingman's and Milford- it is down to one lane with a traffic signal(alternating traffic). They said on the news it could be til the END of 2023 until it is fixed! THank God I don;t normally drive that section.
I don;t think we would lose the entire 70,000 acres to hunting if it becomes a N. P. but IMHO we should NOT lose a single acre- they should leave things alone. Why do we always have to do things JUST BECAUSE WE CAN???!!!
Perry- Did the PGC limited the hunting acreage? Were they even considered in that decision? Or is it proposed by a National(Fed) entity for which we have zero recourse?
"but IMHO we should NOT lose a single acre..."
This. Over on HuntingPA.com there are several that are willing accept losing 10% of the acreage for hunting. That's 7K acres or almost 11 square miles. No, no, no.... No loss is acceptable. Period. It's time to draw a line in the sand and say no more.
I figured BHA would be all over this. Cuz they're all about hunting public ground and access. No, instead they are focusing their efforts on corner crossing in the west. Which will be nothing but 30 years of lawsuits by property owners.
Dale- this is only in the proposal stage, so not sure if the PGC was even consulted. It already happened though, at the New River Gorge in West Virginia. And looking at the maps of NO HUNTING zones, it looks like a lot of the area lost to hunting is right along the river and the more developed and easily accessed areas. My understanding is there would be land designated PRESERVE and land designated NATIONAL PARK land and the PRESERVE would be open to hunting and the NATIONAL PARK land would be NO HUNTING.
I would imagine that a lot of the area along the Delaware river and the land between route 209 and the river would probably fall within the NATIONAL PARK designation and would be off limits to hunting. THis would include most of the agricultural fields now stocked with pheasants by the PGC and the surrounding woodlands which are also used by deer, bear and turkey hunters. I would assume waterfowl hunters that use the river and the access areas would also be prohibited. This would impact the most utilized area of the park (at least by hunters- waterfowl, small game and big game).
Good point about the waterfowlers. I had not thought of them.
Article out of NJ last week. Sussex won't back the change without more info.
Yep- It was on the local news again the other night. The Mayor of Sandyston NJ voiced concerns over the proposal and cited the possible loss of hunting lands. Sounds like he was opposed to it on a personal level as well, as his family lost 60 acres of farmland to eminent domain due to the failed Tocks Island project.
Seems like there is not a lot of local support for this.............
And a lot of concern over the secretive nature of this from the NPS, John Donahue and the Sierra Club
Hmmmm imagine that. The Nat. Park Service, and Sierra Club being secretive lol No wonder one of our groups is “monitoring the situation” lolol that means no statement until the decision has been made…. Kinda like the wolves in Colorado decision.:) Please refresh me on who is John Donahue?
Right from Sierra Club New Jersey Chapter article:
"Congress only needs to re-designate the park and create the boundary. The change could happen as simply as with the attachment of a rider to an appropriations bill."
I've been pushing HOWL to post something. They seem to have the same attitude as BHA, watch and wait.
Yep- kinda like when the Liberals said we have to PASS the Obamacare bill so we can see what it says...................
John Donahue is the retired Superintendent of the DWGNRA........................and an outspoken proponent of the plan to make in a National Park
Perry,
The fact that this can be attached to a spending bill, which btw is how New River Gorge was changed, makes it very troubling. It's not a stand alone bill. I posted on BCHA PA chapter FB page and contacted a HOWL rep with this info.
"Legislation to redesignate this unit of the National Park System was spearheaded by U.S. Senator Joseph Manchin (D-WV), U.S. Senator Shelley Moore Capito (R-WV), and U.S. Representative Carol Miller (R-WV) and included in the Consolidated Appropriations Act for Fiscal 2021, .."
I agree Tom, this is not good! : (
Hunters will be replaced...
https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/bears-wolves-control-deer/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook
Unreal! And people wonder why we don’t trust the people who think bringing in wolves and bears to an urban area to control the deer is a good idea! : (
Perry, wolves were native to PA at one time. Why wouldn't the powers behind this want them reintroduced when something has to control the animal populations in areas that will be off limits to hunting?
Agenda 2030
Yeah, cougars were too.................surprised they didn’t include them!
And Guess who it will be named after??
Probably John Donahue- he seems to be the spokesperson for the PRO N.P. Group.
The local opposition seems to be heating up. 2 articles in our local paper this week. Apparently there was lots of discussion at the recent County Commissioners meeting on the topic.
Been trying to get HOWL and BCHA to get involved, but they have a wait and see attitude. The HOWL rep I've been chatting with seems to think there will be a sperate bill brought up for the re-listing. He got rather pissed when I told him to read the part slowly where it can be attached to a 5,000 page Appropriations or Omnibus bill as a single line item. This isn't a state issue that they are dealing with. It's a federal issue and as such will be decided by 435 members of Congress and 100 Senators. Let's be honest. A congressman or senator from Washington state aint gonna give a sh!t about it. I keep pushing them to get the word out. Nothing. The SC wants to get it done this year. Congress breaks in August. When they come back, it's time to focus in elections. So there is a few months to get the word out. And BCHA, whose mission statement is protecting access public land, does nothing. Well, they did issue a statement two months ago stating their opposition.
Dont forget that BCHA made their Colorado wolf statement 5 minutes before the Colorado wolf announcement.
