KBO booth at Topeka
Kansas
Went to the Topeka Buck Classic and one of my main stops was at the KBO booth. I know lots of posters on here are KBO members and to those guys that pay their dues and support KS deer hunting hats off. But need to make a comment why were most of the pictures of committee members hunting bears moose caribou and out of state? Then they oppose anyone from out of state coming to KS. And spoke with a couple of them talking about outfitters they hunted with in other states but strongly oppose any one making a dollar off their own land in KS. Curious to hear a response.
I don't think too many "outfitters" come to this site. Surely you aren't suggesting that money isn't being made in KS selling deer? All ya need is a 40 and a failure pile.
Mr. Oberg I have openly spoke out against outfitters and I know what you’re talking about. About 8 years ago when my son was around 10 I took him to an outfitter or something like that and paid for a cull hunt. It’s our human nature sometimes to be doing something ourselves that we speak against.
First off though I don’t consider you an outfitter really if you own your own land. I really don’t care for the out of staters that come up there to make a profit off of someone else’s land though. Those are the ones that seem to don’t care about the land or what they’re doing but just to see how much money they can make. I don’t mind the landowners making a profit off of their own land.
I know a few up there that are my friends that disagree with me but that’s alright. I come from a state that people are not very nice about letting you hunt on their land. I learned from an early age that I could either work hard to make some money to hunt or I could just sit home and feel sorry for myself so I chose the first option.
What is KBO? Are we talking KBA?
Painting with a pretty broad brush. Those species you listed can all be done DIY first of all. In the event they were guided hunts there’s a very good chance those guides/outfitters have to adhere to much more strict permitting and/or qualification parameters than any KS deer guide. And generally tags in other states/provinces aren’t given out quite as liberally as the current KS deer system. I doubt many members have much of an issue with the legit operations around the state. The fly by night free for all that much of it has become is the dilemma. Apples and oranges.
Ha! I thought there was some "Outfitter" org called the KBO. Turns out Ken just can't spell.
Ken….I am not opposed to NR’s coming to KS to hunt. However, I am opposed to 30k NR’s getting buck tags each year. I would like to see that reduced by atleast 50%…but that is probably not realistic?
So, let’s say KDWP reduces the current 30k NR tags by 30%. That would equate to 21k NR’s. Up the NR tag cost from $500 avg. to $715 avg. and revenue comes out about the same. I guarantee you the NR’s will dish out another $215 for their KS tag!
Outfitters making money off a landowners land seems like a regular commercial transaction to me. Many Kansas land owners lease their land out for agricultural purposes, and the persons leasing that land makes money, or he/she wouldn’t lease the land. If people leasing the land are trashing it in some way, the landowner needs to have a better and enforceable lease agreement. One thing that would in my opinion solve a lot of the problems with the Ks deer herd is a substantial reduction in non res licenses. I suspect that the state could raise the license price enough to be revenue neutral against the fewer licenses. People will pay a lot to hunt Ks and a few other states.
Why are outfitters and guides not regulated in Kansas? What ever happened to the guides licenses and having to get certified?
First off Ken, or should I say Mr Chairman, it's the KBA, not the KBO. Your comment that we are against people making $ off their land, not true, we are against people making money off deer and thinking they own them or have the right to sell them.
Claiming hypocrisy. I don't think anyone is against the principles of out of state hunting as much as the mismanagement of the KS deer herd, and the loss of accessible land for residents to hunt. In our lifetime both have occurred as a direct result of our legislators regulating for NR hunters.
I've never hunted out of state, but I have fished in other states several times. My assumption is always that my presence in doing so does not hurt any populations nor does it take away from locals being able to fish. I expect those states to manage wildlife in a way that my needs do not outweigh the needs of their own residents.
If you ban corn all this bickering goes away. There wouldn't be 15,000 nonresidents a year willing to pay that much for a tag if they actually had to hunt to kill a good buck. No easy button, less demand, herd becomes healthy again...but would mean less dollars and that's all we care about in this country, unfortunately. We will destroy the entire planet soon enough.
Patrick I was about to tell Mr. Oberg here not to worry about losing hunters when they banned baiting in the very near future. Even though I’m all for Kansas banning bait there will still be a lot of non-residents hunting there. Yes there might be a few that decide not to hunt but there will that many more ready to take their place.
One reason I left Missouri to go to Kansas was because of all the non-resident pressure up there. Missouri doesn’t allow baiting and the number of NRs is unbelievable. Iowa is another state that has it banned and you got people drooling and waiting in line for 5 to 6 years waiting to hunt there.
I’m for banning it because I do think it’s the right thing for Kansas to do. I think it will help the State in a lot of ways.
If banned, the overall pool of NR applicants might drop a little. But my guess is public land will become even more crowded. It’s already banned there and the perception will be that banning corn on private will help improve the hunt across the fence. With 8,000 folks missing out on tags the last two years there are plenty waiting to fill the shoes of those who drop out. Many of which are non-baiting public land guys to begin with.
I will have to say that myself and my late wife are responsible for getting a great many of the pictures from members that are used in the KBA booth and with one exception all photos are from DIY hunts. Yes, there are some non-kansas animals pictured and if anyone says they never dreamed of hunting outside of Kansas, they will probably lie about other things as well. NOT THAT ANYONE IS A LAIR !
Marvin Whitehead +45 year KBA member
If you think that that banning baiting will significantly reduce non res hunting pressure, I think you are wrong. If Ks bans baiting, and allows the same number of non res tags, I believe everyone of those tags will be sold, even if there is a large increase in license cost. Iowa doesn’t allow baiting and the wait list for non res hunting is several years out. What drives non res hunters to come to Ks, or Ia, or some other states is not baiting or non baiting, it’s “trophy potential.”
"Trophy Potential" has taken a huge hit in KS the last 10 years according to most....ask the guys that don't hunt with bait now how hard it is to kill a big deer without it. If the number of mature deer has taken a significant hit I'd assume the NR demand would drop off if these guys are paying 5K and only see 120" 2-3 year olds. Could be completely wrong. Maybe they'll magically learn to hunt without bait and continue killing big deer with a bow.
Cherney, I’m a former resident of Ks. I’ve hunted there multiple times per year since the early 1960s, before Ks had a deer season. I was raised and hunted in west central Ks, when “seeing” a deer was a big deal. In the 70s, 80s, and up to early 2000s we saw quite a few real trophy deer, mostly muleys, but some WT. Since t about 2005 I’ve seen a huge drop off of trophy quality and in the case of muleys, the numbers are hugely down. I’m not a biologist so I cannot explain the reasons. However, my “opinion” is its partially habitat loss (CRP) and the number of deer killed is way to high for the size of the herd and the circumstances ( habitat, drought, and disease). Thanks
I'm not as clear about eastern Kansas but I now hunt mostly western Kansas and the long term DROUGHT has serious consequences. The pastures don't have the grass to protect birds and fawns and predation keeps the recruitment and survival low. Pervasive baiting during drought is even more effective in un-naturally drawing game into areas for hunter harvest......especialy in western Kansas that doesn't have mast like acorns to keep deer browsing in the woods.
Margins are tighter for farmers and ranchers trying to eek out a living during drought and they need more money from hunter lease fees. Hunters paying more and more for tags and lease fees feel entitled and obligated to shoot "a deer" no matter what.
Some traditionally great bird habitat is now leased exclusively for deer hunting with nearly zero bird hunting pressure and bird numbers remain low?
I'm afraid a few thousand licenses that may fluctuate would probably have very little affect. A huge reduction in licenses for a few years to let the deer rebound would be nice but I can't picture that happening in this legislative environment.
Do you think those mature, or "big", deer are being hunted...or just trained and shot over piles of corn Dale? Be honest.
Again....ban baiting statewide and reduce NR buck tags down from 30k to 15k and increase the tag cost for those 15k from $500/avg. to $715/avg. Do this for atleast 5 yrs. and then re-evaluate based on KDWP and Sportsmen input/harvest surveys, etc.
For those in SE KS that claim they have too many deer (which I don't doubt that some areas of SE KS indeed do)....break some of those areas/units down into "special zones" for more focused "antlerless" harvest similar to KC urban zones. However, for those areas to become "antlerless special zones" it should first be proven that they are needed...via KDWP spotlight survey (used to establish density and quota) and harvest results.
Wouldn't take too many years for the public perception to change...I think it already is to an extent. KS isn't what it used to be. Hear it all over.
Wouldn't take too many years for the public perception to change...I think it already is to an extent. KS isn't what it used to be. Hear it all over.
SitO, by your definition, the deer are being trained. I have however not had that experience at all with big (+125 ish or bigger) coming to my failure feeders, except in the middle of the night. As I’ve stated here many times, my 640 acres has 10 small dead trees on it, it’s CRP 4”-4’ tall grass (pre the 2022 drought). There is close to zero chance of having a deer walk by in range of my ground blinds. I’ve hunted the property a long time, I know it. I’ll bait as long as it’s legal. If baiting becomes illegal, I can sit in a ground blind for weeks and have probably zero chance at a bow shot at “any” deer. Or can switch to my 257 weatherby, which will change my odds from bait/archery at about 50%, to probably 100%.
100% that you'd shoot a deer...prolly not that good that you'd shoot a 125+,?
Kansas isn’t what it used to be no doubt. But as stated on the main forum in similar discussions it’s still night and day better than where a majority of the NR’s are coming from. Until that changes, which I don’t think any of us want to see, demand will still be reasonably high.
I understand your perceived dilemma Dale, that wasn't the question.
It’s an “actual” dilemma based on the last 13 years of hunting this property since I bought it. And I do agree with you about “training” deer to be at a feeder, and killing that deer. That’s exactly what it is, training. It’s not nearly as much fun as scouting, finding scrapes, pinch points, fence crossings, mast trees, and other spots that give a guy a decent chance at a deer in bow range. I use those hunting tactics in other states, where they are feasible.
Dale…do you have access to other ground that is better suited to holding, attracting and thus “hunting” deer? What is it about that 640 that is making you keep it? 640 acres (1 sq. mile) can hold and hide quite a few deer….even if it’s out in the middle of nowhere and maybe even a gold mine if it’s an island of CRP cover out in the middle of nowhere. On top of that, 640 acres of 4’-4” tall CRP ( height during good/great years of moisture) sure sounds like one nice big ole bedding area.
Fair enough, I know you get it, thanks
What makes you think it won’t continue trending downward KB? Think the dirt and one buck per person is enough to keep it in the top 15 whitetail states?
What makes you think it won’t continue trending downward KB? Think the dirt and one buck per person is enough to keep it in the top 15 whitetail states?
I didn’t say it won’t continue trending down. Likely will. Just not to the level of many eastern states as far as trophy potential goes. Kansas has 548 non typicals entered in P&Y. If you take out WI, IL, IN, OH and KY from states east of the Mississippi all the rest combined don’t account for 548 from my quick tally. Throw in virtually none from AR and LA and you’ve got a pile of whitetail hunters that think Kansas is the promise land. Long way to go before that changes. And hopefully we don’t get there.
Crestedbutte, I hunt this land cause I can buy a “hunt on your own land non res” license. It’s a mile from where I grew up. I have brothers and. Nephews that live nearby, they hunt it at times and they keep trespassers away. At one time it was a terrific muley spot. I know of three muleys over 190, one was I believe 214” NT, that were arrowed off of it, before I bought it. I rarely see muleys on it and never at a feeder. I’ve seen one decent muley buck on it in 13 years. It was 150” or so and passing through.
Dale….assume you know how the deer on your place were bow killed or what strategy was used to achieve that? Have the muley’s declined on your place like everywhere else? Mostly only whitetails on it now?
The muleys were spot and stalked. I know who arrowed them (not me). He saw them bed, got down wind, crawled to get in range and waited for them to stand. Yes, the muley population has plummeted in that area. I actually saw two decent bucks when pheasant hunting this year, 1.5 miles from my property. Since I’ve owned this property I rarely see any muleys on it.
Everyone should stop hunting mulies until their numbers turn around. Doesn't take a damn rocket scientist to see what is happening, and hunting is a major factor in their decline. I haven't hunted my 6,000 acre permission in Gove County because of it.
Just curious… have you seen an increase of muleys on that property since you’ve quit hunting it Jason?
I know out West is different, but that’s a lot of acres.
I honestly can't say. The one year I hunted it, I only saw one muley buck and a few does. I've been back several years to bird hunt and did well until this year. There was zero habitat this year and there were no pheasants or quail and ive seen no mulies either. That being said, i was only bird hunting a fraction of the property but I could see for miles. The drought has decreased what little grass there was, and farmers are drilling wheat ditch to ditch. From Quinter east to Russel, I saw no pheasant tracks in the snow while driving back roads. I was pretty elated to see these 5 mulie does 10 miles east of Quinter, and they were extremely skittish.
Why stop hunting muleys but not pheasants?
Stop hunting both until they recover.
You can’t hunt wolves, grizzlies, mountain lions or buffalo in Kansas. Have they “recovered”?
We have a couple small isolated populations near me in AK (mountain goat and elk). Both were closed in the mid 2000’s due to population concerns. Fifteen years later the herds are the same size. Hunting for both has reopened with a small number of tags allowed.
From Pheasants Forever - “ Liberal, legal, roosters-only seasons do not harm populations. If seasons work as designed, the outcome is a reduced standing population of male ring-necked pheasants. Extensive research has shown this has little or no effect on pheasant reproduction and subsequent populations.”
From Colorado P&W - Studies show that mule deer herds with as low as 8-20 bucks per 100 does still sustain 90%+ pregnancy rates.
Never understood hunters wanting to close hunting thinking that’s the missing link to “recovery”. I’m on board with tweaking the muley management for sure, but shutting it down won’t do a damn thing in the grand scheme. Especially when we’re already largely taking only males.
Had the same thoughts KB. I quit shooting chickens and quail when their numbers started to drop. Didn't change anything. In those specific cases it seems other factors might be in play.
So what's the answer KB??
Folks, you don't close hunting seasons. The following needs to happen:
1. Decrease tag allotment and thus harvest of male mule deer in order to increase survival of the species in western KS.
2. Delay the 12-day firearm season for adult male mule deer (yes...they get their own season for a while) so it begins no earlier than Dec. 10. Gives them a chance to recover from the late Nov.-Early Dec. rut.
3. Better woodland management out west for areas that have woodlands (river and creek corridors) so there is better understory growth for nutritious forage/browse and thermal/security cover to hide in.
4. More ground with CRP grasslands (knee high or higher) is imperative for fawn survival.
5. Farmers/Ranchers changing practices and not farming/grazing from corner to corner, fence line to fence line. Leave some waste grain and standing crops to provide food sources and thermal/security cover.
6. Pheasants: See #4 & #5 above. Temporarily reduce bag limit. Hope for multiple years of moisture and mild spring stormy seasons.
My answer is moving to a state that values a residents dollar over a non residents. 49 years and I'm throwing in the towel. After being in western Iowa for the last 2 months and seeing how good it is compared to Kansas. It was a very easy choice.
If you want mid 2000’s herds you need mid 2000’s habitat and disease levels. Replant about a million and a half acres of CRP and cure a handful of diseases should do it.
If that’s too difficult and/or unlikely we could attempt to wipe out all the coyotes and whitetails in about 35 counties and take a little pressure off of them that way. Might stabilize things for a while anyway.
And, if we’re talking real scenarios, you tighten up tag allotment/seasons to allow for a higher quality hunt and hope Mother Nature takes care of the rest.
I could have shot chickens and pheasants both this year, but elected not to do so because I saw so few. Only shot 6 quail in the entire season and hunted 3 days a week in January just to get the dogs out.
