Wow, that was fast?
Colorado
A few months ago, P&W was asking for input on a proposal to move units 41,42 and 421 from over the counter archery to draw only. They mentioned overcrowding as the chief concern. A group of friends and I provided considerable input as we have been hunting those units for some 30 years. Yes, while there are more archery hunters now than 30 years ago, crowding is not a serious issue. Worse case scenario, I figured we would have a few years before they went limited. Low and behold, the 2023 Big Game regs have these units as limited. They obviously had their minds made up prior to any input.
Would like feedback from the group on how things will go in these units the first few years? Will there be lots of left over tags? Thoughts?
Some in our group have 0 preference points and others have 15-16. Thought the high point crowd could go for an antlerless tag but these are private land only.
Don't think this could never happen to your OTC unit. I always thought our units were off the radar and not very popular. Then BAM, from asking for input to limited in a few months.
Charlie
I would look at the draw stats for other units that went draw recently.
The CPW Commission gave the CPW Regions the ability to make yearly changes based on Social issues, like "crowding, and Wildlife/habit issues. Changes out side of the normal Big Game 5-year Season Structure.
We see this currently happening with the High Demand Draw units and the possibility that License Allocation and Limited Draw archery might take place sooner, ie, the 2024 season and one year before the 2025 -2029 BGSS.
Thanks Paul, did not know about the social issue exemption for changes outside the 5 year structure. From what I understand, the crowding complaint came from rifle hunters that claimed bow hunting pressure was driving elk onto private ground prior to rifle season.
Yea, it seems like the surveys sent out were all for nothing.
I seem to recall a survey was sent out by the CBA around the 1st of February and there was also a CPW link at the bottom. There was also talk at the meetings in GJ (Steve Hilde testified) about making archery on the mesa limited. So, between roughly the 1st until now they have made those units draw? Am I way off here? Wrong units? I mean the app booklet just arrived hot off the press.
Two separate issues, though related. See discussion under "CBA Stance" about P&W moving to statewide draw only archery. My issue was discussed in length back in late 2022. P&W has talked about crowding on Grand Mesa (521) for some time now. My units are for the most part, on Battlement Mesa.
I have hunted unit 521 every year for 43 years. I hunt from a base camp, set up along a gravel road, every day and return every evening. Never have really had a problem with overcrowding ever, my son and I spent many days last year doing 10+ mile loops and we never encountered another hunter. Definitely makes me suspect there may be some infiltration of non bowhunting entities in the overcrowding claim.
I hunted 75/751 when it was OTC years ago. Last year it was still 100% draw for a archery bull tag as 3rd choice so might be some hope. With those archery tags being either sex will probably be a higher demand. But I think there's some hope of pulling the tag 2nd choice just depends how many tags they issue.
Push that's because the quota for the 75/751 tags was higher than the number of people who were hunting it OTC. When you have no idea how many people are hunting its hard to set a correct quota
Exactly Orion. There is really no way to know how this will go for 41,42, 421 this year. Unless P&W lets us look into their crystal ball?
It was all grand standing. Just like the wolf meetings.
It's pretty clear that all archery elk tags will be draw soon. CPW is just wittling down a few OTC units every 2 or 3 years. In 10 years (probably less) there will be no OTC archery elk units.
^^^ that’s BS. Either do it or don’t.
Can you imagine how crowded otc would be as they keep eliminating onesies and twosies each year?
Crowding as an issue?? Last year in units 12, 23,24, 33, there were 300 limited archery draw license eliminated because of perceived "crowding", and the complaints came from bow hunters, so stated the CPW NW regional staff out of Meeker Co.
They obtained their data from, 1. in -the- field- survey over three years, and 2. After season hunt survey. I have no idea who was surveyed in the field or was the survey quantifiable. But the results from the after season hunt survey only indicated that 9-14% of those surveyed indicated that there was a severe crowding issue and that the same percentage indicated NO crowding issues. The middle group indicated, "only light to moderate crowding. So it seems, the loss of 300 limited draw licenses was based on a very small percentage that felt, crowding was severe.
I can and I do believe that most of us can live with NO or light to moderate crowding.
"So it seems, the loss of 300 limited draw licenses was based on a very small percentage that felt, crowding was severe."
So that's your set point for action? Don't do anything until it's severe? The way I look at it, the majority said it was a problem, so should be addressed. But, at least where I hunt, the crowding is not coming from too many archery hunters. It's TOO MANY RIFLE HUNTERS in archery season! That's what should be addressed.
Paul - I dont think crowding in LE units is the basis of the conversation. Its more of crowding in OTC areas. [ i.e. Bronco Creek - Remember?]
It is the basis of the conversation. If the CPW Regions can reduce limited draw tag because of some crowding, hell yes it will happen on OTC areas to limited draw. Limited draw tags are designed to limit hunters for a better experience and the number of tags have been set and approved. In the GMUs I mentioned above, the average tag allowed has not increase very much over the past 10 years, and surely not enough over the past 5 years to cause a reduction, because now, a number of bow hunter start complaining of crowding. CROWDING IS NOW THE NEW BUZ WORD.
Well maybe if you wouldn’t have told everyone you hunted the Flattops it wouldn’t be crowded.
Everyone likes to complain about crowding until they realize the only solution is not getting to elk hunt when or where they want.
I'm in my 50's. I want to hunt every one of the 20-30 seasons I have left if health allows. I'm not sure people realize how drastic of a reduction it takes to make a significant difference.
Take a unit like 61. Good hunting, pretty low pressure, a few big bulls but mostly a decent chance to have an opportunity at a 280-310 bull. It's twin unit it borders is OTC. Same size, similar terrain. It takes a 95% reduction in hunters to make 61 what it is. More than a few people don't feel 61 is worth the wait.
OTC is not sustainable you cannot have unlimited pressure on a limited resource and expect it to last
I would argue OTC IS very sustainable if it was residents only, and draw for NR with some limitations placed on their tags numbers.
OTC as it is, with all the states around us limiting NRs, and the fact the CWC is making BS decisions to slowly flip units over to limited is NOT sustainable.
THIS----} "Well maybe if you wouldn’t have told everyone you hunted the Flattops it wouldn’t be crowded." Loose lips destroy honey holes!
Agree with Cazador
Resident OTC archery is absolutely sustainable. Our entire harvest is within the margin of error when estimating our elk population.
Archery maybe, OTC rifle is a joke and should not be available.
If you follow the new facebook group Colorado resident hunters page, Brandon Siegfried did a great job of capturing the participation data for all of the Grand mesa units.
Since 2014, resident OTC archery participation dropped by 20%, yet nonresident participation was up 250%. At the commission meeting, 3 outfitters testified to shut to limit it. If those are the facts, why do residents need limited?
Medicine creek sums it up nicely. What is going to happen on the mesa is exactly what happened in 80/81. No one with preference points will apply as a first choice, 65% of the licenses will go to nonresidents. That's what the outfitters wanted. fewer hunters, mostly nonresident.
No work done by CPW to quantify or examine non hunter participation in a heavily recreated ATV trail system and the mountain bike trail traffic along the ragged wilderness.
First bull I ever killed with a bow was on the Mesa. About rolled my truck off the edge and died in unit 521 out of erickson springs CG. That road is snot when wet, and a long way down over the edge.
The benefit of OTC is you can pick up and move if the hunting sucks. It is a shame that residents are being denied that when we have 309,000 elk and archers don't kill hardly any of them.
The fix is in boys, you are the enemy.
Its to late for legislation this year, maybe next year with a bill to solve what the PWC won't.
20% equals how many Resident hunters? 250% equals how many NR hunters?
Thank you.
This is the whole state, not just Grand Mesa. Again, Grand Mesa had NR's up 250% since 2014.
Data from CORA, pulled by Brandon "no state treat residents worse" Siegfried. Check him out on Colorado Resident Hunters Assoc on FB. Im a fan.
What this chart does not show is archers gained limited licenses when E-16, and the SW region went limited. So while residents are down in OTC we did get more limited licenses.
That said, nonresidents are growing in both limited licenses and OTC, so growth is significant. In units 80/81, they drew 65% of the limited tags because no one applied to spend points and 2nd draw has no cap.
This is Grand Mesa units. See the eastmans article by Brandon at the link, and the typical resident nonresident argument in the comments.
I hunted many units but hunted 74 as a NR for 8 years, and can say with all honesty that I saw no more than a 10 hunters, archery and BP. I had to take a few years off due to shoulder problems, and was sad to see that 74 became a draw area. At 78, I don't think I have it in me to scout out a new unit.
Hey Don, impressive you are bow hunting elk at 78! P&W does not take into account our family traditions when they make units draw only. The crowding excuse (which may apply in some areas) seems to be used even where not an issue. Won't be long before all archery units will be draw. At this point perhaps they need to do it sooner than later.
