NOT GOOD NEWS for AR's
Pennsylvania
Sorry folks - can't get the link to work - I'll keep trying.
Here is the news article in full. Articles / News THE END OF ANTLER RESTRICTIONS? - Wednesday March 8, 2023 - Sara Gilane A state lawmaker is proposing to change antler restrictions for certain hunters. Rep. David Maloney Sr. (R-Berks) sent a memo to House members to amend the Pennsylvania Game Code for senior hunters. At present, senior hunters can only shoot bucks with at least three legal points on at least one side, including the brow tine. The change would give senior hunters the same restrictions as junior hunters, mentored youth, disabled hunters and resident active-duty armed services personnel. This would drop the requirement to either two points on one side or a spike antler at least 3 inches in length. Maloney says the change would help to control the spread of chronic wasting disease, which is more common in older bucks who travel greater distances during the rut.
“I believe this simple change in the law will allow our valued senior hunters to enjoy additional opportunity to harvest antlered deer, and greatly enhance their hunting experience,” said Maloney. A senior hunter in Pennsylvania must be 65 years old or older. Residents who are 64 can apply for a license if their birthday is before June 30 of the current license year.
Just ran across this in the Deer & Deer Hunting weekly newsletter and is dated just 2 days ago. This is not good, and I would urge the UBP and all other organizations and individuals to reject this motion ASAP. This is why we have to keep Legislators out of game management. They are trying to get their foot in the door with trying to switch the first day of rifle buck from Sat. to Mon. and now THIS!! Switching the first day of rifle is neither here nor there for me personally but I’m sure it is to some. I am one of these “senior hunters” and this should be a bridge too far for everyone!!!. In fact, I would like to see them go back to the original AR Regs. that required 4 to a side in the W.Pa. and go to the current 3 up rule in the rest of the state but I doubt that will happen. So, if it isn’t broke don’t try to fix it. ALL Seasons and Management decisions should be left to the PGC BOC and the professionals that advise them. Not clueless legislators. The sooner we can get the Sunday hunting legislation passed the BETTER. It contains language that gives ALL the control of seasons, bag limits and game management to the PGC not just Sunday hunting and keeps the “CLUELESS" out of it.
No it won't. There's clueless in the PGC too.
I don’t know if the BOD always follow the recommendations of the biologists but I trust the biologists more than the directors or the politicians.
AR, is one ofv th e best things that happened to Pa deer hunting. If I remember correctly, it was the senior hunters at the time that AR was being proposed that wanted AR. So they became part (?) of the restrictions of not shooting smaller bucks.
I'm a senior & have no plans to shoot spikes, 4's, & 6's if it's legal to do so.
Not sure of your neck of the woods but I've seen a tremendous increase in posted land from AR's . Some it is from "its mine "and others due to food plots, it's my big buck, poaching and a increase of entitlement to that trophy buck. Also a loss of hunters from above reasons. We've created a antler reason to hunt and not food IMHO. Quickly becoming a rich man sport. Remember the gun shot's that echoed the first day of rifle season in times gone by.
And I realize ticks, EHD, housing developments etc is also contributing to loss of hunters.
ARs were never about the science. A 1/12 year old buck has the same genetics as when he is 3 1/2. Instead of cyanide, Alt mixed antler dust in the koolaid. If they really wanted to improve the science, they should have required archery hunters to kill an antlerless deer before they can take a buck. Maybe we would not have inline and centerfire rifles and x-bows in the October woods now to help balance the herd. Now for most of you, its all about the antlers, nothing more.
BINGO Bob. Nailed it. A big part of it anyway.
Where I hunt I saw considerably more, and bigger bucks before the change in antler restrictions than what I've seen since.
Also, coincidentally perhaps, in those days I saw more grouse, woodcock, pheasant, rabbits(BIG TIME on the rabbits) turkey, etc... I still love being out there but there just doesn't seem to be much out there to hunt... well, mushrooms. Still plenty of mushrooms, ramps, watercress, nuts, berries and such.
Bahhh! The PGC is turning me into a vegetarian!!
I sure have missed you on here Jeff.
It would seem to me to be coincidental Jeff. I cannot see how ARS would have any impact on the other species you mentioned but I know there are suspected reasons for less of those birds and animals.
Nothing more than unified cooking. They are mad they have to actually hunt and not whacking a dumb spike at 7am opening day. The no doe shooting unified guys are pushing for this when they should be killing more does instead of pushing pennsylvania hunting back to 1980. Letting a buck see his second birthday is a good thing, not to kill him with his first set of antlers.
Hawkeye and Bob H. got it right!
Before AR's I had thousands of private land acres to hunt. With the bigger bucks came the yellow signs. With the yellow signs came hunt clubs and expensive dues. Rarely hear a gunshot. Hunter numbers have plummeted. I'm fortunate to have experienced the good old days of deer hunting, not antler hunting.
I'd love to see AR's go back to the way it was if it meant access and young hunters getting involved.
Access is a pipe dream. The yellow signs have been happening for years, it is not about antlers totally. People retiring and moving out of the cities and those people that are buying those properties have no tolerance for hunting or hunters nor the liabilities that those properties bring. And there have always been properties that were closed to hunting some have just not been posted until recently because as all of you know, PA has -0- teeth in it's trespassing laws. And clubs that have always owned properties may not have always posted it, but if you pay to belong, you want to make sure the flat landers are not taking liberties with that property. As far as getting younger hunters involved, they have the youth seasons and why would you extend the AR for youth? Let them find their way the same as all of us have had to do. And as we have all seen letting those bucks live past their second birthday has been a win. But alas, the 1980 crowd still lives by those immortal words "a spike will always be a spike". We can post that along route 6 next to the "no doe hunting signs".
I have to agree with Bobby and Jeff, never was a big fan of the AR’s. Shot my biggest buck 35yrs ago, you know before Pa. Had any big bucks. The AR’s have been in affect for 20yrs, should be big bucks everywhere. As far as letting the 1 1/2 yr olds see their 2nd birthday, how about letting the button bucks see their first birthday? Never understood why it was acceptable to shoot a 40# button buck but it’s not acceptable to shoot a 130# four point.
Grown men lobbying their representatives to pass a law to shoot spikes and Y's. I'd be embarrassed.
Don't get me wrong. I have no desire to kill a spike or y either. And I despise the fact that any legislative body has any input on these issues. I will stand by my pos. that archers should be required to kill an antlerless deer before getting a buck tag. I am embarrassed by grown men putting such emphasis on antlers.
Spikes and Y's? It's a rare sight indeed to see an immature buck around here since AR's started. The doe elimination program took care of that. In fact, we saw way more bucks of all sizes before AR. The bucks we do see are older and larger but the sheer number of bucks has dropped dramatically.
I'd be in favor of a full earn a buck program, for every deer season not just archery. There are still factions amongst pennsylvania hunters that are anti game management, anti doe hunting but want a legislative addendum to go back to whacking spikes and y bucks. That right there tells you all about the pennsyltucky syndrome.
5C,
Agree yellow signs have been happening for years. Since 2005 it seems the increase in leased properties has grown exponentially. The chase for inches, age class and idiotic hit list names, (driven in part by the social media influencer whores) has been the root of it. Add in groups like CABH and it's a wonder there's any private land left.
I don't agree with the "since AR, land got posted" statement. I live north of the Poconos and by a Ski Resort. Luckily I worked there for 30+ years and got to know a lot of folks. In the last 20 years a lot of farms/land/hunting camps, around here got bought up by city folks and I honestly believe that one of the fist things that they did was post the land and they "don't hunt". Knowing many of them it opened the door for me to get to hunt these lands. It would not surprise me if many of lands posted in the last 20 years around the state are by new non-hunting owners. Yes land gets post if leased by hunters and I bet some get posted because there's a big buck on it. I just don't believe it's because Pa's now a trophy state.
What he said ^^^^^^^^.
Imagine growing up in the city, being anti hunting, anti bow/gun. Buying a home out in the sticks, and being a liberal Bambi hugger to boot. Not hard to figure out those trees will be painted purple and not have tree stands in them.
30 years ago I had 5 farms within 20 miles of my house that I had permission to hunt, within the last 15 years 4 of them got posted. One farm I hunted for over 10 years. The last year I hunted it, I shot a nice buck. Went back the next year to get permission and it was all posted. Talked to the farmer and he said he’s only allowing family to hunt it. Another one that got posted the farmer said I could still hunt turkeys or small game but no deer hunting??? One of the farms, I’m friends with the farmers brother and he won’t even let his own brother hunt it anymore, and yes this farmer hunts. The last farm I hunted for over 20 years, went to school with the Owner. He told me I could still hunt it but no archery hunting??? and no deer hunting until the second week of the rifle season??? So what caused all the farmers to post their property? I guess everyone can draw their own conclusion’s. I’m not totally against the AR’a, I actually think they could be a good thing if you didn’t have all the side affects.
70% of the private properties I hunted were posted before 1980, many moving into somerset county near Hidden Valley and 7 Springs, in which I hunted both, and many of those were winners in the new Pa Lottery.
So, I've read all the comments above - some with merit - others without. I have done some research on the subject as well as some unpublicized real-world statistics. AR’s is not “Trophy Management”. AR’s were introduced to do one thing – that was to get those year and half bucks past their first birthday and into the next age class and to try and bring the Buck to Doe ratio closer together. It has been an undeniable success in achieving that goal here in Pa. The positive biproduct of meeting that goal is also the fact that a comparable percentage of previously surviving bucks in older age classes have also moved into their next respective age class. The overall higher number of all surviving bucks result in a comparable higher percentage of older bucks surviving and therefore a substantial increase in respective rack sizes. This was a success to the point that now according to PGC data, over 60% of the total harvest is now 2 ½ years and older and the harvest 1 ½ year old bucks is between 25 and 30% down from over 80% before AR’s. It was never intended to be anything other than that. Anyone who reads anything other than that into it is sadly mistaken. I am and have been a member of Oneida Bowhunters in Butler for many years. Every year the club secretary reports the Antlered and Antlerless harvests made by the club members. Very interesting stats. Now for a little history. We are now 20 years into AR’s, the club stats are of a substantial sample size. I put the calculator to work and came up with the following observations. Since Oneida is located right in the middle of 2 WMU’s (2D & 1A), the area where much of the original trapping, tagging / collaring and tracking study was done by the PGC when establishing their data for AR’s in W. Pa., the harvest data is even that much more pertinent. Oneida has maintained a membership of right around 100 members give or take a + or- 5 or so members for many years, so the sample size is substantial. Harvest numbers encompass several surrounding counties mostly in WMU 2B, 2D and 1A bit mostly in Butler and Armstrong. Hunting takes place on many different properties both public and private. Antler Restrictions were put into place in 2002 and continued in its original format until 2010. In 2011, the AR’s were modified to reduce the “4 pts./side w/ a brow tine rule” to the “3 UP rule” we have today. It was reduced due to protests from many that it was too hard to see the brow tine on moving deer in the wild. Also recorded are the P&Y scores of the winning Buck Pool bucks along with the county where taken, number of points, weapon type and year & date taken. Oneida is NOT a trophy club and has a sizable percentage of traditional shooters/hunters as well as a few crossbow hunters in recent years. Here are my analysis and observations: Years 1979 thru 2001 (23 years): Total bucks taken: 626 Bucks/ year ave.: 27.2 Ave. P&Y Score: NA Years 2002 thru 2010 (9years): Total bucks taken: 166 Bucks/ year ave.: 18.4 Pool Winner Ave. P&Y Score: 111 2/8” Years 2011 thru 2022 (12 years): Total bucks taken: 303 Bucks/ year ave.: 25.25 Pool Winner Ave. P&Y Score: 132 5/8” % increase in "s : + 16% “s Antlerless Harvest Years 2002 thru 2010 (9 Years): Total antlerless taken: 213 Does / year ave.: 23.6 Years 2011 thru 2022 (12 years): Total antlerless taken: 281 Does/ year ave.: 23.4 Observations and Conclusions: It is interesting to note the number of bucks harvested on average in the first 23 years of the stats (79 thru 2001) is nearly the same as it is today. So much for there being less legal bucks today. Granted many of those years the season was only 4 weeks long and your tag was an “either /or “tag but over one third were not. That is why I didn’t include the doe harvest for those years since most were hunting bucks and doe licenses were by draw and hard to come by. There was a higher element of difficulty in the first years of AR’s harvesting a legal buck. This was accounted for by the fact that there were not the number of mature bucks available at the snap of a finger just because AR’s were declared. It required several years for those bucks to mature for harvest size as we had just come out of the severe herd reductions of 1999 -2001. That plus the fact that it is more difficult to hunt more mature /educated deer. The P&Y score of bucks prior to 2002 was not any higher and probably less than that of the P&Y ave. for the years of 2002 thru 2010. The first 4 years of AR’S, the winning buck pool P&Y score ave. was 115”s. Assuming that the membership was somewhat consistent over the years?, the club success rate on bucks runs between 20-30% - pretty much mirroring the rest of the state during the whole 30 years. During the early years, archery success in the state as a whole was in the 10-15% range and also mirrored by the Oneida results. The 16% increase in antler size is substantial showing that the biproduct concept of AR’s is working and the premise that the previous percentage of older age class bucks moving on to their respective older age classes is also valid. The antlerless harvest over the past 21 years is amazingly consistent. There were only 4 winning bucks taken the past 12 years that didn’t meet the P&Y minimum and 3 of them were only about 1 inch under. From my own statistics that I keep on my own property and hunting area over the last 30 years, has shown an increase in the "buck to doe " ratio from an average of 1 buck per 9-10 does to a stable average of 1 buck per 3-4 does over the past several years of AR's. Overall deer populations have remained relatively stable, and the number of bucks seen from the stand has increased since in the inceptions of AR's less the first 3–4-year transition period. Will there be yearly fluctuations in the above stats. Sure thing, in fact the winning buck at Oneida this past season was only 97 2/8"s. Probably an "outlier" but counted in the totals non the less - just write it off as an "OFF" year. LOL!. The numbers don't lie gentlemen. If you don't believe them that's entirely up to you. We really don’t need the dumbing down of the AR rules moving forward. If it isn’t broken – don’t try to fix it. AR's are doing what they were intended to do!
Sorry for the length but I thought it was worth sharing.
Just because a property is posted "No Hunting," doesn't mean they don't give permission to hunt it. A large majority of hunters are afraid to ask for permission. Most of that majority doesn't know how to ask for permission. The majority of those who do ask for permission stop after the first no. And I'm happy about all of that...less competition for me.
Every piece of private property I've ever received permission to hunt was posted "No Hunting" before I ever arrived to asked for permission.
Steve, so... let them go let them grow is key. Whacking spikes and forky horns before their second birthday is key? Who would have thunk it?
Here is an interesting article from QDMA on doe to buck ratios for those that are interested. Basically, many assume these ratios may be 10-1 or higher, it is basically impossible. The highest it can be is 5-1 and most often is is 3/2 -1. In Pa, prior to antler restrictions our ratio was 1/3.
Deer sex ratios are a common topic of conversation among whitetail hunters. Other than deer density, few subjects ignite controversy as quickly as a discussion of the number of does per buck in any given parcel of woods. There are many misunderstandings regarding sex ratios, so I’ll clearly define what they are, how they are measured, and what they mean to your Quality Deer Management program.
The term “sex ratio” can be used to compare the number of bucks and does of all ages in a population, or it can be used to compare the number of antlered bucks and antlerless deer. It can also be used to compare the number of adult bucks and adult does, as well as others. Given the possible uses of the term, it’s important to clearly define what you’re referring to when discussing this subject. The definition I’ll use is the number of adult does for each adult buck in the population. The number includes deer 1½ years and older (all deer except fawns) and describes the population immediately preceding the hunting season. When comparing ratios, make sure you are referring to pre-hunt adult sex ratios. These are the ratios biologists most often refer to, and they should not be confused with observed ratios or post-hunt ratios as the latter are nearly always heavily skewed toward antlerless deer.
Observed ratios are generally skewed toward does because during hunting season antlerless deer (does and fawns) are often more viewable than bucks, and many hunters inadvertently consider fawns as adult does. Also, in areas of high buck harvest, the actual and observed sex ratios truly can dramatically favor does during and following the hunting season. However, this likely was not the case prior to the season.
I often hear hunters, outdoor writers, and even biologists refer to 10:1 or 15:1 doe:buck ratios. These cannot be pre-hunt adult ratios because as long as the deer herd is reproducing and recruiting fawns, the ratio cannot become more skewed than about five does per buck. The biological maximum is roughly 5:1 because even in the absence of doe harvest, a certain percentage of adult does in the population will die each year from old age, vehicle collisions, disease, predators, etc. Also, about 50 percent of fawns born each year are bucks, thus the sex ratio gets an annual correction when fawns are recruited. This concept is easier to understand with an example. Review the chart below, then I’ll discuss this example as you continue reading.
ratios 1) Let’s say a hypothetical population contains 120 adult deer (fawns not included). We’ll skew this unnaturally toward does to show how quickly deer herds can correct the sex ratio – let’s say there are 100 does and 20 bucks (a 5:1 ratio).
2) During hunting season, hunters kill 90 percent (18) of the bucks and none of the does.
3) The post-hunt population is 100 does and two bucks.
4) Natural mortality is considered next. Since there are very few bucks left in the population, few will die from other causes. We’ll say one of the two remaining bucks dies (50 percent). However, at least 10 percent of the does will die from natural causes.
5) The remaining population is 90 does and one buck.
6) For our example, we’ll say each doe recruits 0.83 fawns. In 2008, a QDMA survey showed the average fawn recruitment rate in the United States was 0.83 fawns per adult doe. The rate ranged from less than 0.5 fawns per adult doe in Arizona and Oklahoma to 1.2 fawns per adult doe in Illinois and Iowa. The fawn recruitment rate isn’t the number of fawns born but the number that survive to about 6 months of age and are recruited into the fall deer population. At this rate there will be 75 fawns (about 38 bucks and 37 does; fawn sex ratios often slightly favor bucks). These won’t be added to the adult population until the following year, but last year’s fawns get added this year. For simplicity, we’ll assume last year’s population had the same number of fawns and immigration and emigration were equal.
7) Following fawn recruitment, the population has 127 does and 39 bucks for a 3:1 ratio.
This example is simplified, but it demonstrates that pre-hunt adult sex ratios can’t become as skewed as many think (as long as fawns are being recruited). If fawns are not being recruited due to herd health, significant predation, or other issues, then the annual “correction” shown above is reduced, and the ratio can remain more skewed. However, we started this population with an unnaturally skewed sex ratio, applied an unnaturally skewed harvest to it, and still had a more closely balanced population one year later. Given a deer population’s ability to correct itself, a 3:1 pre-hunt ratio should be considered heavily skewed from a biological perspective and reflects poor management of the deer population in many cases, or factors like predation. This 3:1 ratio could lead to hunters observing 10 or more antlerless deer (does and fawns) per buck during hunting season.
Conversely, just because a herd has a “good” sex ratio doesn’t mean it is properly managed. Prior to antler restrictions and liberalized doe harvests, Pennsylvania was considered to be among the poorest managed states in the country. Even then, Pennsylvania’s statewide pre-hunt adult sex ratio was less than 3 adult does per adult buck. The deer population was skewed toward females, but the bigger problem was nearly all of the bucks were yearlings, just like in our example on the preceding page. Of course, things are much improved in the Keystone State today.
There are a few methods for estimating the pre-hunt adult sex ratio, but of all of them, trail-camera surveys are far superior to the other methods, and in addition they can provide density, age structure and fawn recruitment data. A late-summer trail-camera survey is a great way to estimate the pre-hunt adult sex ratio. To help more hunters become proficient with trail-camera surveys, NDA published a book, Deer Cameras: The Science of Scouting.
In the NDA survey mentioned earlier, we also collected sex ratio data from state agencies for 1998 and 2008. The national average was 2.0 adult does per adult buck in 1998 and 1.9 adult does per adult buck in 2008. In 2008, pre-hunt adult sex ratios ranged from 1.1 in Connecticut and Georgia to 3.1 adult does per adult buck in Texas. You may never get a 1:1 ratio where you hunt, but well-managed herds can easily have less than two adult does per adult buck.
Do you enjoy watching bucks chase does or fight for breeding rights during the rut? Do you enjoy hearing bucks vocalize or like to grunt or rattle them in while hunting? If so, then balanced sex ratios and complete age structures have many benefits for you. Balancing these population parameters increases competition for breeding, which improves your opportunity to witness vocalizing and chasing or fighting while afield, and thus increases the likelihood of seeing bucks within range of your deer stand.
Two goals of QDM are to balance deer herds with the habitat and have bucks of many ages in the population. By accomplishing these goals you obtain balanced sex ratios (2:1 or better) with complete age structures for bucks and does. So, the next time you ask about sex ratios, be sure to follow that question up with another about the age structure of the herd.
Steve, that was very informative.. Thanks for taking the time to post it. Your research need to go to print here in Pa. Again Thanks, Ed
I am aware of that article and have read it before. To clarify, I also use trail cam surveys and my own personal "In-stand' observations to the number of antlered bucks as compared to the total number of all antlerless deer be it buck or doe by sex. I totally agree with the premise set forth in the QDMA / NDA article. Many years ago- (longer than Ilike to remember) LOL, sitting on post up in the mountains during rifle season - north of the 80, and counting a string of antlerless deer come past me that had 51 antlerless deer followed up by a single spike buck. I'm sure I'm not the only one to observe this back in the "out of control deer herd days".
X-Master, well said in your posts. No you're not the only one. I've seen those line of does many times and were lucky if there was even a buck in there. The locals where I hunt hated ARs and increased doe harvest because they liked seeing many deer, even though the herd was way out of control. It was hard for them to swallow ARs and the doe harvest program because they were used to seeing piles of deer to keep them busy putting their rifle scopes on every head to see if there was a 3" spike. I love ARs and can definitely can see the overall benefits (and I'm far from being someone that hunts for antler size).
dpms, interesting article and it makes sense that the doe/buck ratio cannot be as high as some people say. There was no way the doe/buck ratio was 1/3 before ARs in the area I hunt (state land NE PA). As X-Master eluded to, lines of does prior to ARs and what legal bucks were there were getting hammered during rifle season.
If they change the antler restrictions to seniors some won't shoot 4 points anyways you have trophy hunters and you got meat hunters me I'm in my early 50s I work alot I'm a meat hunter if I see a nice 6 point up north it will be in my freezer. Those damn horns are tuff eating .. even if they changed the antler restrictions to all hunters , some will let the smaller bucks walk.... just my opinion ...
Plus senior citizens only got so many more years of hunting before there health goes bad let them shoot any buck... again just my opinion...
Plus the antler restrictions made people shoot more does , mostly the hunters who hunt 1 day first day of rifle, I think 2 weeks of rifle doe season is over kill ... won't matter to me if they get rid of antler restrictions all togeather, if im hunting in 1a area and I see a big 20 inch wide 6 point with 2 up and a brow tine , I got to pass that up with my compound bow , why ? I pay for a hunting license I should be able to shoot what makes me happy, that's the main thing shoot what makes you happy... happy hunting ...
I disagree that ARs made people shoot more does. The game commission controls the number of does killed by the season length and number of licenses allocated.
My thing is if your a 1 day rifle hunter your not waiting on a buck , you are shooting the first deer you see in the woods... and there are alot of 1 Day hunters , I spend lots of time in woods in archery season , and in rifle season I carry a flintlock...
Any new news on this subject ?
