Pronghorn... is this new?
Kansas
Is this new? I don't remember being excluded from buying an archery tag just for applying for a rifle tag in years past. Or am I reading it wrong? Looks to be pretty clear that if you apply for a rifle tag that you can't buy an archery tag even if you don't draw.
Yes it is new. A lot of states are trying to lower point banking. You either hunt or get a point but not both.
Well bummer! I chose to get a point instead of buy an archery tag that I never fill.
Do you know the justification? Was buying points and issuing archery permits at the same time hurting the population in KS?
Seems like a good idea to me based on what I've seen numbers-wise the last two years hunting them. I'll continue to buy an archery permit and rarely fill it but have fun trying.
I wonder if it will cut down on competition for rifle tags? I can honestly say that if I would have had to choose between buying a point or going archery hunting that I would have never applied for a rifle tag in the first place. But, now that I have a couple of points I want to keep applying until I get a tag. Stats show that I'll have decent chance in next year's draw.
I still wonder if it'll be a significant boost to the population? Rifle tags are very much regulated so that won't change much. Archery percentages are very unsuccessful and they only sell something like 100 tags a year anyway. It just doesn't make sense to me unless it's to discourage people from applying for rifle tags.
More to do with a quality archery hunt with less pressure imo. Archery hunters have increased with crossbow hunters and people being able to get a point and still get the archery tag.
I think there will be some that forfeit their points but most will be like you and at least kill one with a firearm before going 100% archery.
Jmo, Matt
What do we have, 3 counties with huntable populations? They need to get rid of pronghorn tags in Kansas til we get numbers back. I don't understand why we keep hammering them when there are literally a handful compared to other states. We stopped hunting our 5,000 acre lease in NM because numbers dwindled from over 30 bucks to 6 bucks in 5 years. At one time, this entire state had pronghorn all over it.
Thanks Matt. I hadn't realized archery pressure had increased but it makes sense. Went to the KS website earlier this morning and found some data. Archery tag sales have gone up recently, and they have dropped the number of rifle tags issued. They have also posted an answer to my original question of why not let us do both; it's specifically to address point creep.
Good change. Like Matte said, not many hunts where you can acquire a tag and point in the same year.
Another likely change that’s sneaking through the cracks because most folks probably don’t care is closing the October portion of the archery hunt. Exchanged a few emails with commissioner Sill a couple months ago and she said Mr Peek feels the bowhunters need to share in reduced opportunity as firearms tags are being cut. I asked about looking into making all hunts buck-only instead. According to the harvest reports almost 20 does and fawns are taken every year. I was told that’s not a biologically significant enough number to matter. But closing the October archery hunt to save an average of three bucks a year is I guess. Still can’t figure that one out. Seems to me Mr Peek has his mind made up bowhunters need less opportunity whether it does any good or not.
Kaleb, I'd suggest calling and discussing with Matt Peek. He's a good guy, we've discussed Pronghorn for years. I don't know if closing the late segment is going to change much either, but he's got all the numbers/data to make an educated decision.
Unlike deer, he gets a "harvest report" from every Pronghorn hunter I believe.
The reduction in rifle permits is going to make the most impact, just too easy imo.
if the average take is 3 bucks a year then making the harvest buck only would have a much bigger impact...I don't care if they close the october archery portion but apparently some people still hunt it. I'd be fine with both changes if it means an increase in population moving forward.
I think Matt does a good job Kyle. Just disagree with the thinking on this matter. Their 20% reduction in firearm permits equates to about 40 tags dropped. That means right around 25 fewer animals taken with current firearm success rates. If that makes a positive impact on the herd, stopping the take of does and fawns certainly would.
Hadn’t realized the ’22 harvest numbers were up until just now. He doesn’t have a single October archery kill tallied in ‘22. Bowhunters are going to lose 65% of available time, and effectively get one more day than muzzleloader, to do almost no good.
Patrick, if/when the archery hunt goes to a draw and you only get ahold of a tag every other or every third year October might sound kind of nice if you don’t get it done in the first segment. Might be a long wait until you get to try again.
Yeah I agree with your sentiments on it. Don’t like the idea of removing a bunch of the season to not improve anything. Also don’t like the idea of changing things for the worse just to say you changed something if the numbers suggest the change won’t help anything.
I agree with KB 100% on pretty much everything he said.
I very much care about the October season. The few years that I've been able to hunt I used that October time frame extensively. Take it away and there might be several years that I just don't get to hunt, which means why not just apply for rifle points? If there are no animals harvested then why remove it? Doesn't seem to be for the good of the herd.
Just because animals arent being harvested doesnt mean there isnt a tremendous amount or pressure being put on them.
That's true gobbler. I've never seen another hunter where I'm hunting, but I'm on a large track of private land so what I've seen may be unrepresentative of other places. Are pronghorn affected by pressure? Does it mess with their survival rate or rut? I haven't spooked very many while hunting but when I do they seem to run over the next hill and stop there to return back to business. I'm more curious than anything, antelope are new to me as I didn't grow up with them and have just started hunting them recently.
I would wonder the same thing. Thought maybe there would be some scientific justification based on pressure or survival rate but not sure what that would be. Maybe if they are pressured the fawns are more likely to be impacted by a sneak attack by a coyote? They like to stand out in the middle of barren fields so without pressure they are likely pretty safe that time of year.
The muzzleloader & rifle seasons prematurely end the Pronghorn rut every year.
Pressure? It's like the wild west out there during the short firearms seasons. They can't hide, and are hunted sun up to sundown. Because most folks think, or believe, or know that the majority of LO's don't care for Pronghorn, lots of hunters don't respect borders or "permissions"...they chase them anywhere, shoot from any distance, running shots are common.
Patrick is right, after those seasons they get in big groups and act like Musk Ox. Bunched up in "balls" as far from any roads as they can get. I imagine life for a Pronghorn can't get any more stressed than those few days.
We should just be glad that they don't combine the muzzle loader and Archery seasons like deer...hell the Xguns are bad enough.
Go early, hunt them in their natural state, been doing it for over 15yrs and it's one of the most amazing hunts KS has to offer.
Yeah, I don’t think the October archery season and “tremendous” amount of pressure are synonymous. My experiences, though it’s been a few years, were similar to Cat’s.
I don’t think you’re going to find a biological angle to removing the October season Pat. It’s more about the optics of cutting one user group and not the other. There’s better ways to go about it in my opinion, but October is the low hanging fruit no one will throw a fit about. Except me and Cat I guess. :)
I'll express my opinion if needed. Just tell me who to send the email to.
I think it's a good idea. I am hoping it will keep some of the pressure down during the archery season.
I hate to see the October season go. I have always enjoyed making it back out there when more of the crops are gone.
Kaleb, I think you are spot on. I would bet it's more about limiting the complaints from the Rifle/Muzz crowd.
If I was them I would go ahead and let Cat go cause it’s not like he’s going to get anything anyhow. By the time he bumbles and fumbles around out there and gets gets ready to shoot he’s done lost all his arrows or bullets:?)
Hope they make a rebound. I’ve never been but y’all make it sound fun so maybe one day….
Lol! I'll never live that down, but I'll be able to tell that story to my grandkids!
Ha Cat the older I get I’m thinking the stories we gonna share is going to be good times.
I'm a little worried with the low draw odds of the rifle it's just going to push people into the Archery... Especially with crossbows, but maybe not
It’s certainly possible Michael. A couple tweaks I wouldn’t mind seeing added to this new change are that if you hold a valid pronghorn tag of any kind your point total reverts to zero. That separates the bow and firearm folks further. Then make the firearm draws bonus point style (like Ft Riley elk) where everyone has an opportunity vs the preference point/highest point holders it is currently. If a rifle hunter had a decent chance at drawing every year but was ineligible to buy an archery tag if they applied I think it would suck some of the crossbow crowd out of archery season for sure.
I’ll send you Comm Sill’s email in a PM Jason. I need to revisit with her since the new harvest numbers have come out and see if she has any news otherwise. If they decide to close it after a year where zero late season harvest occurred that tells me all I need to know about the why.
I finally heard back from Comm Sill. Closing the Oct season is to appease rifle hunters as they take reductions in tags. They want archery to do their part, even though no pronghorn were harvested in Oct.
Makes no sense. My impression of Kansas rifle pronghorn hunters is that they pay little attention whatsoever to quotas or what bowhunters are up to. They simply apply or buy points long enough to acquire their tag and then restart the process after their turn. If there is some noise coming from landowners that hunt them I could understand a little more. But we’re only talking a handful of folks in that camp I’m sure. At the end of the day each and everyone of those who apparently need appeasing have the option to go the muzzleloader route and cut their wait time significantly, or pick up a bow and try it every year. Doing away with 65% of the archery season for no biological benefit is bs!
I've read her email to me several times. The best I've come up with from it is they want to show they are reducing everyone's opportunities and not just rifle's. Since very few people bow hunt Oct they figure they can remove it and kill two birds with one stone; appease rifle hunters and at the same time not hurt a lot of archery hunters. KB, I agree with your earlier post that removing a significant amount of season might bite us in the ass later down the line if and when it becomes difficult to aquire an archery tag every yr.
