Pa. Elk guides ... yea/nay
Pennsylvania
Anyone have opinions on prefered Elk guides for the State hunting season.
Why is this an issue? In a word, I would say yes to them. And my thoughts are very liberal. First, they can be invaluable to not only find elk, but also resourceful getting them immense creatures out. Second, a lot of those guides are living in elk territory 24-7, that's good. And they also understand those seasonal movements more than a few locals do. And, this is the positive point, they get access to some of those hard to reach places by securing properties that need elk removed for damage over browsing and nuisance elk. Same as out west, or up north, a good guide is worth his weight in gold! Did I cover that enough?
If I ever get drawn I will go with Elk County Outfitters. Have talked with a few that have used them and have nothing but positive things to say.
Gene- we agree on something. I hope this doesn't start a trend.
dpms- Thanks for the requested elk guide info. I've contacted these folks already.
"Gene- we agree on something. I hope this doesn't start a trend."
Too late. This isn't the first time we have agreed on something, lol. When we both draw an elk tag this year, we can talk some more about other stuff we agree on around the meat pole...........
The Pennsylvania elk tag is certainly getting a little bit confusing and anti resident don't you think? I am disappointed with the non resident drawing percentage! And, I am in chester County and have the maximum points for all seasons. And last time I checked, and seen every drawing, we are a big fat donut ?? hole for bulls.
Another vote here for Elk County Outfitters. I drew a cow tag in 2018, and I could've never got it done without them. There is a LOT more involved than just getting the elk out of the woods.
5C. Yes. I have expressed my concerns to both the PGC and my elected officials about non resident tags not being limited or capped at a percentage. The PGC seemed uninterested in the fact that the archery draw for non residents was very high last year. My elected official, on the other hand, was interested in why non resident tags are not capped and had a discussion with the PGC about it. Not sure if that will go anywhere or not.
It is interesting as well that bull tags were added to the late season. Those tags could have been easily stayed in the archery or general season but they chose the late season to move them into. The reason why? To add more interest to the late season to sell more applications to that season to make more money off of the elk.
I'm in favor of having a capped NR quota too. I'm sure PGC doesn't do it because it would put a NR chance at zero for many hunts. Even if the split was 75/25, which is a very generous R/NR split in today's world, any hunt that doesn't have 4 tags would not have a NR tag. Which is all bull hunts. Personally I'm ok with that. I deal with it every year for drawing out west. But PGC would lose a lot of NR apps when they realize there are not many tags they can draw.
The elk license should cost more for both R and NR. Everyone should have to buy a hunting license to even apply. Which currently is not required.
I think it should be reciprocal for the state the NR's live in. If I have long odds applying to hunt elk in their state, then it should be the same for them applying to mine!
What's the plan someone applying from NY or OH then?
Apply for a Maine moose tag. The non residents draw is 8%. Here, it s/b less than that as our population is not nearly as abundant. How does 35% draw happen in archery?
Hopefully others will join me and reach out to the PGC about this issue. There is no justification for non residents getting such a high percentage of the tags especially when they are so limited.
And, I am also doubtful to the "points system" the currently use. The odds of drawing are supposed to increase every year, and I see 12 year Olds, just passing their hunters safety course that year getting an elk tag? And, the recording of the draw behind closed doors reeks of collusion. It should be 19999999999999% live! Not cloak and dagger shenanigans.
Drawings, for big game are live. Not, not, not recorded.
Like saying these Drawings are recorded for your protection and ours... pffffffft.
New Mexico limits non-res to 6% of available tags. While that may be a bit on the low side, at least they protect the hunting of the residents. Non-res should not have the same chance as residents.
We hunt deer, bear and turkey ALL time in our home state. Why in the hell would I hire a guide? Don't do it for CO or NM elk, why do it here.
Tom, no one has said that you need to. My point is, that herds range has a lot of places the general public can not access to get them. A guide that lives in elk Country can get that and, access to horses and carts and trucks to get them out. Access is key, those guides have it.
John, thanks. I know the reasons. Are we talking private vs public access? If so that’s a whole other conversation. If it’s physically getting there, pretty sure outfitters aren’t the only ones that have ATVs, horses, carts,…..or a solid pack.
Both actually. For example, people who are not from the area or live 4-5 hours away and cannot scout the area may consider a guided trip. My point of using horses and such was sgl Don't allow motorized vehicles. That is a problem getting the elk out.
Funny, those that DIY in CO, NM, WY, MT have zero issue getting elk out. On their backs. And if you draw a tag and can’t make a couple of scouting trips a few hours away, and have to rely on others to do your scouting….
As far as “guides” paying for leases and access to private land to hunt a public resource…think it out to its logical conclusion. I know how hard ranchers in northern CO work to pull and retain elk from public land. And what the outfitters charge. I’d prefer to not see that happen in PA.
If I can e-scout from 1800 miles away, select several spots, can’t go, relay coords to a friend, and he’s on elk from day 1, well at least make an effort to earn your elk. Not show up and pull the trigger.
Non-residents should be capped at not more than 10% of the available tags. Most western states do this on the sheep draws. Heck in many western sheep units, non-residents are prevented from drawing a tag. Sheep are the top animals in those states. PA's elk are the top animals in PA. Non-residents of PA should be treated the same as PA residents are treated in western state draws. The quality of PA's elk are as good as any elk herd in any of the western states. I am not sure whether the Game Commission can make the change or whether the legislature must do it. It needs to be done.
Maine moose is 8% non residents draw. It should be less than that, 4% nr draw.
The thing with keeping nonres numbers higher or making it look like you got a chance, is the high number of tag for nonres bring in lot of $$$ with nonres putting in for the draws at $25, $50 or even $125+ just for a chance at drawing a tag in other states. It's all about $$$.
Also correct if I'm wrong,, Elk must be brought out of the woods whole or one time had to be. Can't quarter them up. Did this chance?
Additionally, I will add, you can't apply for the drawing unless you already have a pennsylvania hunting license. And make that non residents application as expensive as their home state for the highest non resident fee. Just like we must adhere to.
Ed
"Also correct if I'm wrong,, Elk must be brought out of the woods whole or one time had to be. Can't quarter them up."
I just looked for that in the manual and really couldn't find a yes or no.
PA elk can be quartered and packed out. It is not a requirement they come out whole.
Put in for the "lottery " last night. Max points for all of them. Does anybody know if the pgc will air it live this season or is it going to be "ignore that man behind the curtain " again? I hate, hate, hate the fact it is not live streaming like it once was. Kinda like plugged in dominion voting machines. Ripe with fraud.
As far as I know, the drawing will be like it has been. "The man behind the curtain". I spoke with my state rep and a rep from the PGC about this last fall. Despite some good discussion, it appeared like the PGC was unwilling to change anything with the drawing or the number of non resident tags and it appeared like my state rep, while concerned, decided to not place this issue high on the priority list.
As with many things, a lot of poeple whine about stuff but few actually take the next step and work towards change. The comment I heard more than once from the PGC is that they have not heard from many people that have concerns with the process. And this was the first my rep had heard of the drawing not being legal and the concern about non resident tags.
Gene- what exactly do you mean about "not being legal?"
Hundreds of thousands of tags given out by draw nation wide every year without evidence of fraud. I think we can trust them to pick 144 without actually seeing them pick the name out of a hat. Next somebody wants to watch them put all the names in the hat so that can be verified too.
"Gene- what exactly do you mean about "not being legal?"
The langauge was drafted and the intent of the langauge was for the drawing to be held in person at the visitors center. When it was discovered that the logistics were not in place, the decision was made to do the drawing offsite and reveal the winners in person, instead of investing in what is required to adhere to Title 34.
The language in Title 34 is as follows; 1993 Amendment. Act 37 added section 2706.1. Cross References. Section 2706.1 is referred to in section 2705 of this title. § 2706.2. Elk hunting licenses. (a) Application limitation.--Whenever the commission makes a determination to authorize a hunting season for the taking of elk, no person may submit more than one application for an elk hunting license in any license year. The commission shall hold a random drawing of applications for the issuance of elk licenses under this subsection at the Elk Country Visitor Center in the Township of Benezette.
What’s the difference whether they do the drawing at PGC Headquarters or at the Elk Visitor Center?
Title 34 states at the ECVC. The intention is for the public to witness the drawing and for the process to be transparent.
Sorry to interject here, my concern is that it is not a live drawing anymore. They recorded the results then post them. Recorded where and in front of whom? And why isn't it live? Worked in years past. This stinks of fraud.
How do they do the drawing? Is it a random computerized drawing or do they do it manually?
The pgc elk drawing was streaming live and in front of the crowds at the elk center. Now, they are recorded and not live which leaves all of the entrants with doubt. The elk expo lottery chance is live. But the pgc is now a behind closed doors cloak and dagger exercise that is ripe for being fraud. And my questions again are, whom is watching it, whom is witnesses and is their shenanigans going on now we have 35% archery non residents draw???????
I used to go to the Elk Expo and spend money on vendors products. Now that the PGC has taken away the "public" drawing part of the expo ..has attendance been dropping off from recent years ? Another question is who holds the PGC accountable ? In the view of many hunters their antlerless system has failed and the calls and emails going to our state legislators did nothing . So what makes one think they even care what the Pa hunter thinks about an elk drawing.
I am to far away for it. But, I am not digging the closed doors drawing. Nor the lack of capping the non residents draw!
Makes me even more content that I never wanted any part of Pa's elk 'hunt'.
21 years, max points, all seasons. Why a stop now.
And once again, the PGC and the "Big reveal" did not fail to disappoint, non resident draw too high. And pre printed lists for people to look at after, uh huh, it's fair!
34% of archery bull tags to non residents this year. What a crock of doo doo. Hopefully more express their displeasure to the PGC about this. Not just here or on Facebook but via email and phone calls. That is a job for me next week. Again..................
They even had pre printed lists of the winners available for the "live in person drawing", lol.... Another crock of doo doo.
Does anyone have a link to the results?
I fully call bull on this. We can manage to put a man on the moon, but they say they can't get wifi in elk County? Way to go pgc, the conspiracy continues. Pre printed winner lists? Just as suspected. Fraud.
Archery Bull: E. HINNERSHITZ GREEN LANE, PA Zone 5 G. LAIL RAVENA, NY Zone 12 J. FINE JR NEWELL, PA Zone 12 A. SWARTZ DILLSBURG, PA Zone 14 D. HARVEY SAINT THOMAS, PA Zone 3 D. SUTLEY TITUSVILLE, PA Zone 4 K. SCHWABENBAUER KNOX, PA Zone 14 K. GOTWALD BROOKVILLE, PA Zone 10 K. HAUN HUBBARD, OH Zone 10 D. BISHOP CHITTENANGO, NY Zone 11 D. BYLER MERCER, PA Zone 5 D. PRINGLE PITTSBURGH, PA Zone 9 P. FOOR EVERETT, PA Zone 9 G. KRAGT HOLLAND, MI Zone 12 J. SCELSA GARNET VALLEY, PA Zone 12 M. SHERUDA FACTORYVILLE, PA Zone 11 H. BEILER REXVILLE, NY Zone 13 R. SPRANKLE TYRONE, PA Zone 13
Archery Cow: A.SINES MEYERSDALE, PA Zone 3 J. ECKERT READING, PA Zone 10 B. FOORE LEBANON, PA Zone 4 M. JOHN BERWICK, PA Zone 9 R. MESSINA NORRISTOWN, PA Zone 5 W. BARE NOTTINGHAM, PA Zone 14 D. MUMAU JR MARION CENTER, PA Zone 12 J. GRIFFITH STOYSTOWN, PA Zone 13
General Bull: T. BRUNER MTPLEASANT, PA Zone 8 R. SCHNECK JR JONESTOWN, PA Zone 10 D. STANGEL ROCKINGHAM, VA Zone 14 E. HOPPERSTEAD ALLISON PARK, PA Zone 10 D. BARKLEY PETERSBURG, OH Zone 14 A. CUNNINGHAM HUNTINGDON, PA Zone 2 L. REEP CHICORA, PA Zone 12 G. CASSEL DILLSBURG, PA Zone 8 J. CONTE PECKVILLE, PA Zone 2 C. YODER BELLEVILLE, PA Zone 13 T. SMYERS BEDFORD, PA Zone 10 J. DIMAIO PHOENIXVILLE, PA Zone 2 J. HOROSKY SAINTPETERS, PA Zone 11 T. WILLIAMS NORTH EAST, PA Zone 3 A. LAPP MYERSTOWN, PA Zone 12 F. WURTENBERG CROYDON, PA Zone 3 D. YENOLEVICH NEWTRIPOLI, PA Zone 4 G. MONTARSI LOCK HAVEN, PA Zone 12 C. GEARNS GRANITE CITY, IL Zone 12 M. DANIELS GENESEE, PA Zone 4 D. RANALLI DANVILLE, PA Zone 4 D. BOWSER WINDSOR, PA Zone 11 J. KOZAR CENTRE HALL, PA Zone 13 B. MAST TUSCALOOSA, AL Zone 5 R. SIGMANS NEW TRIPOLI, PA Zone 5 P. STRAUSSER RUSSELL, PA Zone 5 W.CSASZAR BETHLEHEM, PA Zone 6 D. LENSBOWER CHAMBERSBURG, PA Zone 6 J. BAIRD TUNKHANNOCK, PA Zone 9 W.BIGGS STOW, OH Zone 9
General Cow: L. KOYT CATASAUQUA, PA Zone 2 S. ALLIAS HARRISVILLE, PA Zone 8 M. GLOSSNER MONTOURSVILLE, PA Zone 2 M. FENICLE CARLISLE, PA Zone 2 E. NOSS SHICKSHINNY, PA Zone 8 D. ZEANCHOCK N CAMBRIA, PA Zone 12 N. WOLF WOMELSDORF, PA Zone 12 L. TOBIAS DANVILLE, PA Zone 12 J. BONNER HOLLAND, PA Zone 10 S. BATES HONESDALE, PA Zone 10 W. HAZLET 4TH PETROLIA, PA Zone 3 C. GRIFFITHS GIRARD, PA Zone 14 A. BARLET AUBURN, PA Zone 3 M. MARTIN CONESTOGA, PA Zone 14 W. KRAMMES DAUPHIN, PA Zone 3 M. HARDISON UNIONTOWN, PA Zone 3 K. COLPETZER. CLAYSBURG, PA Zone 12 M. CALLAGHAN POTTSVILLE, PA Zone 4 E. BARNES ST CLAIR, PA Zone 4 R. SNYDER GROVE CITY, PA Zone 4 R. BRUGGEMAN NEW HOLLAND, PA Zone 10 D. QUICK REDLION, PA Zone 4 J. OLSZAK COWANSVILLE, PA Zone 14 J. GRANKO OLD FORGE, PA Zone 14 M. HAMORY ALLENTOWN, PA Zone 10 J. LAMEY JERSEY SHORE, PA Zone 5 C. BOGGS SAYRE, PA Zone 5 J. BOHL ETTERS, PA Zone 5 S. BALEK CORRY, PA Zone 12 P. BEACHY WINFIELD, PA Zone 5 R. MILLER NEW OXFORD, PA Zone 5 B. HOTTLE SOMERSET, PA Zone 6 R. VALLECORSA ALIQUIPPA, PA Zone 6 A. MCENTIRE KNOX, PA Zone 12 T. DONAHOE DANVILLE, PA Zone 9 E. MILLER PATTON, PA Zone 9 G. HORST CHAMBERSBURG, PA Zone 9 R. CALDWELL DUBOIS, PA Zone 11 M. LAUGHMAN DOVER, PA Zone 13 G. MAXWELL ROCHESTER, PA Zone 13 J. MCINTOSH PUNXSUTAWNEY, PA Zone 13 J. MARTIN EAST EARL, PA Zone 13
Late Bull: C. CUNNINGHAM DRESHER, PA Zone 14 S. RUPCZYK GOOSE CREEK, SC Zone 11 T. LUSE LEWISTOWN, PA Zone 2 R. BOWERSOX COBURN, PA Zone 2 M. ZIMMERMAN PUNXSUTAWNEY, PA Zone 6 J. OESTREICH MEDIA, PA Zone 12 R. LAZUR JEFFERSON HILLS, PA Zone 14 S. FERGUS WASHINGTON, PA Zone 5 R. SCHWARZ LEWISBERRY, PA Zone 10 M. HUBER VALENCIA, PA Zone 4 L. KAYE FLEMINGTON, NJ Zone 11 J. WARTLUFT MYERSTOWN, PA Zone 12 D. HUNKELE GLENSHAW, PA Zone 8 I. SCHEMM CRANBERRY TWP, PA Zone 13 T. SCOTT CLARION, PA Zone 3 R. MICKINAK DERRY, PA Zone 13 D. THIVIERGE STRAFFORD, NH Zone 9
Late Cow: J. EBERLY ROBESONIA, PA Zone 6 R. LEBO PINE GROVE, PA Zone 11 A. WINTERS NEW HOLLAND, PA Zone 14 R. EHRGOOD READING, PA Zone 13 E. TRANTER CHESTERLAND, OH Zone 14 R. DAVIS RENOVO, PA Zone 14 S. WATSON EASTEARL, PA Zone 10 C. BAKER COCHRANTON, PA Zone 4 M. SHIMKANIN MEADVILLE, PA Zone 12 S. BUTLER NEW ALBANY, PA Zone 3 S. LEHMAN MOHNTON, PA Zone 13 R. JANCOSKO DENVER, CO Zone 2 J. WILSON THOMASVILLE, PA Zone 10 C. THORUM POTTSTOWN, PA Zone 2 J. STEINER CALCIUM, NY Zone 3 J. HOLDEN GROTON, NY Zone 3 A. KOHR YORK, PA Zone 4 M. CHARLTON ROCKWOOD, PA Zone 10 E. MULLET SPARTANSBURG, PA Zone 12 S. EVANICK INDIANA, PA Zone 4 R. BISHOP LANCASTER, PA Zone 5 D. BIER CARLISLE, PA Zone 5 D. PORTERFIELD WESTMIDDLESE, PA Zone 12 S. LINDGREN CROSS FORK, PA Zone 6 T. STIEGERWALT LEHIGHTON, PA Zone 8 J. CAMPBELL FRANKLIN, PA Zone 8 M. WENGERD GREENVILLE, PA Zone 9 B. TESTER ALLISON PARK, PA Zone 12 D. PARRISH NEW CASTLE, DE Zone 9
Thanks! I was sure this was going to be the year....
Yeah. I am sure a lot of people thought so to. But when the draw is done the day before and already decided, this reeks of fraud. Imagine your drawn and they didn't meet their quota of non residents, they throw you back in. Who knows it? Witnesses? Pre printed draw sheets to Habs out at the expo? Or there is a little home cooking involved with a WCO who needs a favor repaid, yup, I know you think it's all just another conspiracy theory, but when the rules are broken, who knows how far the stink rises.
Nothing again for me...............you would think if you got bit by a rattler in Benezette they would at least give you a cow tag! ;-)
Found out one of our “regulars” at the UBP 5C Hunt Bob Lebo drew a late season cow tag. Thought we had a second when I saw C.Yoder but unfortunately it wasn’t “our” Yodermeister! ;-)
