Mathews Inc.
Crossbows why or why not
Oregon
Contributors to this thread:
gangster40 23-Dec-17
WapitiBob 23-Dec-17
osage 24-Dec-17
gangster40 28-Dec-17
osage 28-Dec-17
gangster40 28-Dec-17
gangster40 28-Dec-17
swede 28-Dec-17
osage 28-Dec-17
gangster40 29-Dec-17
gangster40 29-Dec-17
tlingit 14-Jan-18
gangster40 21-Jan-18
swede 22-Jan-18
gangster40 23-Jan-18
gangster40 23-Jan-18
swede 24-Jan-18
gangster40 24-Jan-18
swede 25-Jan-18
gangster40 26-Jan-18
gangster40 03-Feb-18
swede 06-Feb-18
WapitiBob 08-Feb-18
swede 08-Feb-18
WapitiBob 09-Feb-18
MichaelArnette 13-Feb-18
turkeyhunter60 21-Feb-18
gangster40 21-Feb-18
gangster40 21-Feb-18
swede 21-Feb-18
From: gangster40
23-Dec-17
Ok opening a can of worms, and going to state my views. After a triple fusion back surgery, and a rotator cup surgery on left shoulder ( I am Right handed), and now having problems with right shoulder. I have come to the realize my hunting days may be at the end, or soon to be. I have looked into alternative weapon's. Rifle recoil that didn't bother me before, now makes me want to cut off my arm. So I looked into a crossbow, just to try and figure out what all the arguing was all about. Well first just the looks are a problem, yes it has all the parts of a bow, but it does have a stock. Hummm Hybrid. Oh yes it does have a trigger , but don't most mechanical releases have a trigger of some type. So to me that is not enough to discrimmanate agianst a crossbow. Ok modern or old. To me there is no debate on that. The compound bow is newer then the crossbow. Crossbows were around right beside the long bow. They were kind of the compound bow of there time. oops did I say that. Then there is the distance you could possably shot, had to go to the manufacurers for this. The range of a crossbow is within the same range as a compound bow, this is from the people who make them, so as humans are they will try to push it. Speed the fastest bows IBO speeds are around 365 ft per second. The crossbows I read about are from 350 to 385. Now they didn't say IBO Speed and because I do not have one to see have to take what they are saying. Last accuracy, I can't do Alot of comments on this don't have one to say they are or not. I would always hope they would be. But the most accurate rifle in the hands of someone who can't shoot, are just a normal rifle. Same goes with a bow. With all this I can not see why crossbows are illegal, or why can't a dissabled person hunt with one.

From: WapitiBob
23-Dec-17

"With patented HeliCoil technology, the Ravin crossbow measures just six inches from axle-to-axle and delivers unprecedented downrange accuracy – with groups as tight as three inches at 100 yards."

Pretty good reason to keep them out of archery season.

From: osage
24-Dec-17
Might as well get an Airbow and hunt with it during archery season. After all "its your new rifle", as it is advertised. 3" groups at 150 yards.

From: gangster40
28-Dec-17
Wapitibob ok good accuracy, but what is the kinetic energy of the bolt and the momentum of the bolt at that range, ethically would it be a good clean shot. I am no physicist, but as with a bullet, arrow, bolt or any other projectile you lose both of those as you go to your down range. I know that with a compound bow in the right hands 100 yd shots are not that uncommon in target shooting, I have been to 3-d shoots and seen these shots, But the penetration was not very acceptable. I have also had to help track animals that people have tried these shoots, and they were not my most memorable great times of hunting. You do know that back in the early 80's the same things were being said about the compound bow, (there accuracy and range were to great to add them to archery season). I do not know if you are a traditional archer or not I just remember the arguments. I am not looking for the law to change to help me keep hunting, I know that in the last hold out state, by the time it might change I will not be around or be able to hunt. I just want to understand the thought, that want to keep them out of Oregon, even for disabled, or youth for that matter. And crossbows are just the tip of the argument, there is tech that would help with the drawing of a bow, but most of them are not legal in this state either . Because they are a mechanical device to help with the draw cycle of the bow. Osage if I wanted to hunt with a rifle, why wouldn't I just get one of the air guns, Like the Airforce brand, that shoots up to a 45 caliber pellet, no recoil. I am not looking to find away just to hunt. Even though I do not get my pry every year, because I limit my self to 40 yds or less. That is what I most enjoyed about archery, was the challenge to get up close and personal with my pry. That statement was like telling me because I am becoming disabled I do not have the right to hunt, in the manner I enjoy. I do not want to sound bitter, but your statement hit me wrong if it was not meant too, I am sorry for my reaction. And as with all it is going to happen to all of us, you can not stop it time does its job very well, what are you going to do when it happens to you. I am not happy with my situation, but I can not change it. Like my father one day I will not be able to enjoy the thrill of the hunt.

From: osage
28-Dec-17
It was not my intent to be insulting in any way. My point was that each year these ever advancing mechanical systems are being developed, and being including in the primitive seasons. I have no problem with a person using one, but they belong in the rifle season. Oregon is the only state that I know of that has traditional bow areas only, no compounds, no 300 yard inline muzzleloaders, and I would hope that it remain as such. As it is, we traditional people have little of anything left.

From: gangster40
28-Dec-17
I thank you Osage. I am sorry that I let it hit me in the wrong way. I guess I just don't want something I love to do be taken away from me. I will continue to bow hunt as long as I can. And will stick to my limits or make them a little more restrictive, as I like the idea of getting in close. I do have a long bow I wish I was better with but I am just no good with it, but enjoyed playing with it up until my shoulder surgery. the only thing I disagree is your use of the word primitive weapon. If you look at history the crossbow was along side the long bow in Europe in the mid-evil days. They could take off the scope on the new cross bows ( the ones like XCALIBOR style bows and be in line with the ones in the mid-evil times), but I know they could not do that.

From: gangster40
28-Dec-17
Oh and as for muzzleloaders regs have changed, you can use inline muzzleloaders with what they call the northwest package, basically you can not have a covered or contained primer, so everything but archery is changing in Oregon.

From: swede
28-Dec-17
I tend to agree with gangster on this. These new crossbows are on par with a good muzzle loader or even an old 30-30 rifle. Let hunters use their cross bows in the rifle season. If they made the choice before hand, I would permit them in the muzzle loader season in lieu of the M.L. What is the problem? Certainly no one would try to use these new pieces of equipment for any special advantage. Allowing them in the rifle season or M.L. season would not be promoting more of the technology creep in archery that has been prevalent in the past 45 years. It would help maintain some resemblance of "primitive" in the archery season.

From: osage
28-Dec-17
I wasn't aware of the changes in what is allowed during ML season or the Northwest Package. Basically it changes the priming system from one that probably will not get wet to one that could. Does the new law allow high velocity pistol bullets with sabots or is the primer the only change?

From: gangster40
29-Dec-17
The law change is only on the primer system, no sabots or the plastic seal of any kind. I believe it is only ball or conical bullet. ( lead cup bullet). I was suprised to see the change my self.

From: gangster40
29-Dec-17
I did a little looking into the mid-evil crossbow just to see the differences, and actually put my hand on one, didn't fire it. The stocks are a little long, so I assume it is placed in the arm pit, and there is no cams, so power is all in limbs. To me the big difference is in the trigger, it is a lever that is pushed up to the stock, which I can see a safety problem if the bow was dropped. And the most noticeable no scope, which I don't believe a primitive weapon should have.

From: tlingit
14-Jan-18
One of the big differences between a bow and a crossbow is that with a bow you must draw while the game is in front of you. With a crossbow that movement is not available to the animal.

From: gangster40
21-Jan-18
Thank you all for your responses. Just have a few more comments, on things I have learned. I still have a problem when the word "primitive" is used, to say that crossbows are not. Again crossbows were the first tech after the long bow, and developed through some of the same changes, from recurve to compound. So basically they were around together. Tlingit yes you don't have to draw when the animal is close, but there are disadvantages, One they are very heavy compared to any vertical bow, and very heavy up front. So packing them around is not pleasant. Two they are very noise when fired, so string jump is a problem. Three there is no way to tune a crossbow so you have to pray that the manufacture did there job well. Four they are very cumbersome Have you ever had a animal coming behind you, moving them around is not as easy as you think. A good point was made to me equipment doesn't make the hunter, a hunter makes the hunter.

From: swede
22-Jan-18
As sure as there are cables, cams and a string on a crossbow, you can adjust it. I am confident that in the right hands any crossbow can be very accurate. You can also adjust the arrow/bolt. Gangster, I think you exaggerate the disadvantages of a crossbow. I am 70 now. When I can no longer effectively hunt with my bow, I will return to the rifle and finish out there.

From: gangster40
23-Jan-18
Like I said crossbows went through the same advances the vertical bow have, look in to history, they started out as limbs the same as a long bow, then came along the recurve limbs with the vertical bow the same style of limbs were added to the crossbow, then the cam's came out on the compound vertical bow, they were added to the crossbow, they were a primitive weapon. With a cam crossbow yes you can adjust the cables to get timing on cams. Now for the accuracy. Yes in the right hands, and A rest to hold it steady like a bench rifle shooter would use, you can shot good groups, but not like what are advertised. The best groups I have seen on video ( from people testing the crossbow brands ) is three to four inch groups at 70 yards. Even though the arrow is shorter, you still have the flex of the shaft, witch in turn affects accuracy. The disadvantages of the crossbow, just test it if you can hold one, or take a stick of about 4 inches around and about 2 to 3 foot long put a 5 pound or so weight on one end then hold it like you would a crossbow, or take the same thing but add a cross peace of 13 to 20 inches and walk in the areas that you would if hunting. Or with that cross peace stand were you would beside a tree or brush see how far you would have to be away from tree to make the same shot as you would with your bow, it will amaze you. I am happy for you at 70 years of age to be able to do something you love the way you love to do it. I am not complaining here but with a triple fused back, with nerve damage to both legs, a rotator cup surgery on left shoulder, and arthritis starting in right shoulder ( witch makes shooting any of the rifles or shotguns I have so painful you could not comprehend, and I have a few of both to leave to my son ) I hope to get as many years with my bow as I can. I am only 57 years old and pray I will make it to 70, with hunting. But because of people who seem to be dead set against one form of hunting weapon it looks very impossible, and I am in good shape compared to a vet the comes home missing a arm, or more, because people here state that if they can't draw a bow back they can not hunt with a crossbow, or anything that will hold the bow at full draw, and maybe they loved hunt with the bow just as much or more than anyone else. Yes I am a vet, and would do anything for my for my vet brothers that gave up their life for us.

From: gangster40
23-Jan-18
After reading my last post again, I have to say I am sorry to swede. It is not your fault I got hurt in high school sports. With time they have taken there toll on me physically. It is hard to loss an activity you love to do.

From: swede
24-Jan-18
Gangster, I have been thinking about your situation, and appreciate your desire to continue hunting. You make some good points, and I believe it should be acceptable, for persons that are incapable of drawing a 50# regular bow, due to a physical handicap, to get a doctors affirmation explaining their situation. With that statement the prospective hunter could apply to ODF&W for an exemption to the normal requirements for use of a bow. In no way do I want to see every "me too" excuse used to get a variance for the use of a crossbow. It needs to be limited to people physically incapable of drawing a 50# bow and not able to rehabilitate or develop their muscles so that they could draw 50# bow.

From: gangster40
24-Jan-18
I appreciate your response swede. And I agree with you on the limits to people getting the the permit for other weapons. I have made these statements for others that I feel are worse off then my self. Wife has said I am to proud and unless my arms get totally useless I will stick to my vertical bow. Between the Doctors and bow tech's flip disk tech, It will hopefully be many years away. thank you for your under standing

From: swede
25-Jan-18
I appreciate your situation Gangster. I am more than pleased for anyone like you, with a handicap, to have reasonable consideration given to them so they too can enjoy hunting. There are others out there hunting, claiming handicaps, that deserve nothing. They are the reason you get some pushback when you bring up the crossbow question.

From: gangster40
26-Jan-18
I hear what you are saying swede. That is one of the reasons I have never put in for a disabled permit. I have seen hunters claim disability's , that really didn't act or move like they had anything wrong physically, I mean I watched then do things like carry 100lbs of duck decoys to a duck blind, and they claim back problems. Not saying they didn't have problem's, it just didn't seem to be as bad as it should have been. Maybe to solve this the restrictions on what constitutes qualifying for permit should be more restrictive. This would at least help with the issue, if doctors will follow it.

From: gangster40
03-Feb-18
I want to thank all of you that have stated the myth's about crossbows and why they should not be allowed in archery or any other season. You have peaked my interest to do more research on crossbows and what they are, and are not capable of. You have helped me learn some of the laws of PHYSIC'S, that will help me be a better and more ethical hunter with any weapon. You have shown me that there is a very deep and unsubstantiated prejudice, against crossbows, and that people will believe anything if it does not go with there ideas. I wish I could get the Oregon bow hunter, the Oregon hunter groups, and have vertical shooter, and someone who has shot a crossbow, and a muzzle loader shooter, at a shooting range . To show these groups what each weapon will do. And to those of you that call a crossbow a modern weapon teach you a little bit of history. The thing I learn that surprised me the most was through physic's, how much the compound bow out does the crossbow in kinetic energy after about 30 to 40 yards. Thank you for showing me what a prejudice state this really is.

From: swede
06-Feb-18
Gangster, I think you misunderstand buddy. What you call "prejudice" I would call "concern". I stated bow hunting when it was just a stick and string affair. The nearest thing to electronics, that could be found on a hunter, might have been a flashlight with a couple of D-Cell batteries. The only things attached to the bow was a string nock and possibly a feather, quiver or a wood match for a sight. Over the years we have seen a steady increase in technology incorporated into what was supposed to be a "primitive weapons" hunt. With the increased technology and commensurate killing effectiveness, we have seen an explosive increase in hunter numbers. For many of us that has degraded the quality of our hunts. If crossbows became generally acceptable, every kid, and person that did not want to develop their strength and bow shooting skill could pick up a crossbow and go hunting. The handicapped could drive around and poke their crossbow out the door of their vehicle shoot game. The way it is already, people can have two tags in their pack for the same animal. One belongs to a handicapped person that is supposed to be with them and the other is for themselves if they might get caught. When you see abuses going on nearly every year, you can understand why people are what you refer to as prejudiced. Like many others, I would rather go back to stick and string hunting and leave the high tech equipment home. After all that is part of the reason I like to "get away" for a hunt.

From: WapitiBob
08-Feb-18
They've been used in the archery season in Wyoming for the last 40 years. After looking at actual data, I believe crossbows in the archery season is a non issue in a Western state from a harvest/success standpoint. Shooting from a tree over a "food plot" as they do in the East is another story.

From: swede
08-Feb-18
Bob you make an interesting point. I am not totally opposed to handicapped persons having a crossbow option, when it will keep them in the hunting game. Where I hunt in central Oregon, I think more elk are shot out of tree stands than from on the ground. We are hunting more and more as easterners hovering over a food plot. Does the changing nature of archery elk hunting factor in here?

From: WapitiBob
09-Feb-18
It could. The only western state data I have seen is Wyoming and crossbows just aren't the boogy man they're made out to be, and I always thought they were. Of course, the future is yet to be seen and the advancements are coming faster than in the past.

13-Feb-18
Well as a resident of Oklahoma I’ll speak with experience. We legalized crossbows in 2008. Since then our bowhunter numbers are from 88k in 2007 to 144k last year. I’m in the medical field and want to see handicapped persons be able to enjoy bow seasons to the best of their ability. Most states have an option for those persons and if they don’t they should.

If you want twice as many bowhunters hunting for the same deer you are going for then go for. But be careful what you wish for

21-Feb-18
Crossbows don't bother me any, i don't care if your disabled or not....If it's legal go ahead and use them....It's just a matter of time when Oregon OK's there use during archery season...Or have there own season...If you look at other states it doesn't effect the archery season's much....

From: gangster40
21-Feb-18
Sorry been away for some time, dealing with shoulder problems. Again thank all of you for your responses. In this time have been able to converse with a rep. from the North American Crossbow Federation. We talked about the political situation in Oregon, and how it affects this situation, and also how this in a round about way this is affecting our herd population. (Basically the laws on protecting or limiting predatory animal hunting). The conclusion is that getting any season or combined season with a crossbow is not a sure thing (including one were only disabled hunters could use a crossbow). It is sad to hear. I still see that some people consider a cross bow as new technology, and history shows that it is not. Yes it has improved or should I say advanced through history right along side the vertical bow. A crossbow today is (in most cases, The Excalibur brand still only make them with recurve limbs) is a compound bow turned side ways. Their maximum affective range is no more the a compound bow. The more I find out about the crossbow the more I wonder why, unless they had to, would anyone use a crossbow, there is no reasonable advantage to it. Then in my searches for knowledge I cam across the equipment that holds the string at full draw, I could see this only for the disabled, but we can not even do that. It is a sad state of affairs.

From: gangster40
21-Feb-18
Swede I know were you are coming from, in more ways then you could know. My archery history does not go back as far as yours, but I was there when if you ever saw another bow hunter during the whole archery season it was unheard of, you very seldom saw anyone. My father was dead set against any archery. His complaints were archers wound more animals then they take, they spooked all the deer and elk before rifle hunters got a chance. So after the arguing was over and I showed him his teaching me of being a ethical hunter no matter what weapon I used, was being carried over to archery, and that there were a lot of ethical archer's, it slowly change him. As far as those people who take advantage of some loop hold or are unethical, I have seen them in all hunting season. All I can do is report them or if they were in my group tell them I will not hunt with them if they are going to do these things. You talked about people picking up a crossbow and not developing skills for bow hunting. After my medical retirement For a little extra money I am working part time in a bow shop. The people who are unprepared to go archery hunting is totally surprising. I have people buying bows the day before season, that have never pick up a bow in their life. Crossbows are not going to change that in people. There are times I wish I could refuse to sell a person a bow or do repairs to those people. Crossbows are just like any other weapon, there are skills that have to be mastered or at least practiced, it is not a wonder weapon that you pick up and hit everything you aim at. Holding weapon steady, squeeze trigger, or with finger release let it slip away don't jerk fingers straight, and fallow trough. But there are people who will not take the time, just like with any hunting weapon.

From: swede
21-Feb-18
Gangster, I totally agree with your latest post. When you wrote about your father, it reminded me of mine. He thought the same. The truth is more game is wounded with bullets than arrows. I saw a display of broadheads in the butcher shop in Burns. I asked if they collected more broadheads than bullets from the animals they took in. The butcher said, No we get a lot more bullets. I also have seen all you are writing about. When all is said on this, I would summarize with, I am pleased to have real sportsmen and sportswomen out hunting, but would like to remove all the slobs. Sportsmen and women are not just those that hunt trophy animals either.

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