So the question is.....who, if anyone....should pay for an opioid addict's treatment and care?
I do not believe prescription opioid addicts want to be addicts, nor did they (in most cases) set out to become addicts. Once addicted and using higher dosages, it's either take the drugs or they get very, very sick. It's sure as hell not the way I'd want to live my life.
I've never taken an opioid, and asked my doctors not to prescribe them and give me a non-opioid instead. IMO unless it's for long-term, excruciating pain, the "juice ain't worth the squeeze". Just ain't worth the risk.
His fault?... Possibly. Fault of careless doctors giving them to a young man that doesn't truly need that much painkiller?...more likely.
A lot of young folks suffer the same demise while searching to "feed the need" after using them for pain.
Some people are predisposed to addiction. Plenty of folks use opiods without being addicted. I was given 30 Percocet after a hernia surgery. I took 2, and have kept the rest for accidents. I still have about half left after many years.
The logical argument is, that other diseases, such as diabetes, are not compensated for, and their management has to be paid for out of pocket.
The left needs to come up with a more creative argument...and with that, let the dumbassery ensue !
The more we replace individual responsibility with collective responsiblity, the further we get from the Constitution and the more society will decay.
I think intent comes into consideration here. Did someone suffer a legit injury and became hooked that way? Or did non-injury, intentional abuse the cause for addiction? Keep in mind heroin and other hard drugs falls into this category.
-Managing a disease is not curing a disease. By your rationale, a person can "cure" diabetes. But we all know the instant they go back to shoveling sugar, they re-engage the disease. Likewise, a "cured" alcoholic would be able to knock back a few during happy hour every day without the potential of a looming crisis.
" It's not genetic, it's not communicable," - Many diseases are epigenetic (environmental, exposure oriented) in nature.
"it's not caused by aging or exposure to toxins."-Except, using your example, alcohol is toxic.
-Definitely a disease. Marked by physical, mental and biochemical maladaptations. The fact that addictions can be managed by behavioral changes is great news. We'll agree there.
I recall going to a doctor for my rotator cuff to get a referral for an orthopedist. While in the office, he offered, at least, 3 times to prescribe pain pills. "No thank you," I said the first time. "I don't do pain pills. The pain is not that bad," I said the second time. The 3rd time I said, "No matter what you prescribe, I will not take it." I definitely got the impression he was pushing a 'script for the sake of writing the 'script.
Human bodies are not always the same..some folks (due to whatever reason) may find themselves being addicted to the opiates sooner than others. Why? Who the hell knows, but good people who haven't the slightest intention of becoming addicted some how wind up that way. I've read many stories about people who were prescribed opiates as part of an injury recovery and ended up addicted to the them, and that is when a choice must be made by the user to seek help in getting off them, or they continue to buy on the black market in order to stave off the horrid withdrawal's.
And once addicted, you either continue to take the opiate, suffer the misery of not taking it, or go through a medically supervised withdrawal and get clean, never to touch it again.
There is no easy way out, so it really comes down to the character of the addicted individual, and the access they have to the medical care needed to get off the meds.
You hit the nail squarely on the head. If anyone here or elsewhere believes they can withstand any pain, no matter the intensity without medication you are in for a big surprise. Likewise to say I am in extreme pain but refuse to take my prescription is ludicrous. When a doctor properly prescribes an opiate what he does not know or will ever know is who secretly lives inside you, your willpower and your constitution to be able to manage the lure of the immediate comfort the medication it provides. Very easy to say I will allow myself to be addicted much like the gentle accountant we read about who one day wipes out his entire family and in the same breath his neighbors are saying he was the greatest person in the world. They obviously did not know him or see it coming and with opiates neither will you. Don't ever believe you are so tough to just say I am done and stop cold. Can be done with opiates but Samson himself will have a tough time arm wrestling those few people. Emptying the bottle down the sink and doing the same with a bottle of pills that instantly relieve your pain and "physce" are two completely different animals. You don't want to be there to test those choppy waters. Steer clear from the beginning. There are many non-narcotic prescriptions for pain. Take that route first and chew on a stick if necessary. Do not challenge your willpower against opiates. The odds are heavily in their favor.
It maybe a better approach to put in context of legal use (under Doc's knowledge and supervision) and illegal use (outside of Doc's knowledge and supervision) and when does one actually cross the bar to illegal use? By doing that it may answer some questions WRT who is paying for what/when and was addiction the result of illegal use?
The last time I know I took some prescrip drugs specifically for pain was in 2007 or so for a compounded broken big toe. I may have taken some Tylenol-3 during chemo but I don't remember because of all the drugs I was taking.
Some general info:
Opioids are a class of drugs that include the illegal drug heroin, synthetic opioids such as fentanyl, and pain relievers available legally by prescription, such as oxycodone (OxyContin®), hydrocodone (Vicodin®), codeine, morphine, and many others. These drugs are chemically related and interact with opioid receptors on nerve cells in the body and brain. Opioid pain relievers are generally safe when taken for a short time and as prescribed by a doctor, but because they produce euphoria in addition to pain relief, they can be misused (taken in a different way or in a larger quantity than prescribed, or taken without a doctor’s prescription). Regular use—even as prescribed by a doctor—can lead to dependence and, when misused, opioid pain relievers can lead to overdose incidents and deaths. An opioid overdose can be reversed with the drug naloxone when given right away. Improvements have been seen in some regions of the country in the form of decreasing availability of prescription opioid pain relievers and decreasing misuse among the Nation’s teens. However, since 2007, overdose deaths related to heroin have been increasing. Fortunately, effective medications exist to treat opioid use disorders: methadone, buprenorphine, and naltrexone. These medications could help many people recover from opioid addiction.
I believe that everyone has an "addictive personality," insofar as everyone exhibits addictive behavior with something. It's just that some "addictions" are not outwardly destructive and therefore socially acceptable (somewhat).
Whether its opioids, alcohol, cigarettes, sex, exercise, shopping, social media, television, religion, tattoos, hunting, etc., whatever provides your dopamine dump, the "addiction" is similar.
WW here’s my brother. Just govthis yesterday and he’s thrilled. It means back to mule deer hunting this next October. 15 years of dealing with cancer. 72 and just went through staph infections in his leg. Finally said remove it. We don’t like physical things to get in the way of hunting. I’d rather die on a mountain top hunting than in a hospitals and both of us have had our share of hospitals. He uses ibuprofen. When he had his leg removed he said finally I need something stronger. Twice I’ve woken up too early immediately after being wheeled out of the OR. I didn’t care what or how much they gave me. When my surgeon saw me there shaking from the pain he started yelling to get morophine in me now. One nurse aside we just gave him some. He yelled it’s obviously not enough. I understand how people get hooked on hard drugs. The first time I got a shot of Demerol it felt like I was being dipped in warm water. The striped curtains were going sideways in waves. Even saw a girl in a bikini in my room.
But to KPC's point about everyone having an addiction......I buy bows....and anything with a blade on it. I just can't help it!
DON'T DO IT!
Substance abuse does not fit the scientific parameters of a real disease. Unfortunately, the lines of disease vs. disorder, aberrant behavior and just plain poor choices continue to be blurred. Here is a partial list other "addictions" that some dopes are calling "disease" (sex, gambling, video gaming, exercising, shopping, working and spirituality) Calling substance abuse a disease gives the abuser a ready excuse for making poor choices. It also gives the treatment industry a ready market to sell their products and services.
BTW, the classic methods of treatment like 12 steps are horribly ineffective. Roughly 70% of those treated end up using again. Systems like the St. Jude program, in which substance abuse is not looked at as a disease but as a series of poor choices has a success rate over double that of traditional 12 step programs.
I'm sick and tired of the victim mentality in this world. Everything is a disease or someone else's fault. Bullcrap. Why should tax payers and insurance buyers pay for "disease" treatment for losers that self-medicate to excess, be it alcohol, opioids or any other psychoactive substance?
-Exactly my point. Thanks.
DL, I hear you on the double standard.
Folks here on the Bowsite come from all walks of life, and we've all experienced different events in our past. Not everyone has seen the world of hard drug abuse..you may have seen it from the "outside", but being around it daily you see the suffering and misery that goes along with it.
Some here have correctly suggested that every addict has had a chance at sobriety offered to them, but keep in mind that's it's a tough choice to make when someone is two days dopesick, and what brain they have left isn't exactly operating efficiently. All they want is to get UNsick, and they're scared to death of the misery that going through complete withdrawal entails.
Heroin, Meth and cocaine are pure evil. Had a dealer living (and doing business) just four doors down from my house, and it took the neighbors and I over 4 years to get that SOB busted and put away. The burglary crime rate in the neighborhood dropped like a rock, and since his property is now in bankruptcy the two neighbors (on either side) are going in and buying it from the bank. Sadly, it's the only way we can guarantee them not being replaced by another dealer.
Can't disagree with the intent of your statement, but in most cases when an addict has hit "rock bottom" and is finally willing to submit themselves for rehab, they're also dead broke, or very soon to be. Hopefully they haven't burned all their bridges, and family will step in to help.
As for gov't assistance, it's a sad fact but having a person back working and not being a burden on society is far better for society as a whole. Problem with meth and heroin is the incidence of returning to the habit, so rehab should also include a complete change in their social life (friends, etc.) so they aren't returning to the same element.
Unfortunately with meth and heroin, trying to get sober by the "set it down, walk away and everything is peachy again" method just doesn't work.
As I said, these are evil drugs.
I personally have had three high-power pain killer prescriptions in the last few weeks. Two got filled, but I have only taken three pills or so total out of the two prescriptions.
BTW, my cost on the prescriptions was less than a dollar. Other more conventional prescriptions may run over $100 each with the same insurance. They seem to hand these things out like water (except cheaper than many of the bottles of water sold at the same pharmacy).
"The life expectancy in the U.S. dropped for the second straight year in 2016 as deaths from drug overdoses rose a staggering 21 percent."
DON'T LET THE DEVIL IN. DON'T DO IT. Removing a 6" long splinter on your shin bone with a hammer is no fun.
That would give an indication as to whether the problem is with the drug itself or the person taking them. I know I have been prescribed opioids on a number of occasions for pain, and have had no desire to take them when my paid subsided. YMMV.
DON'T DO IT, no matter who you are and you will never know the perils involved that would qualify you to enter into this conversation.
And despite all this abject insanity and totally uncontrollable disregard for anything except more drug...we sometimes think it's only a matter of choice or character strength for them to start or stop their behaviors. When one considers the total scope of the national drug epidemic...the crime, cost in lives, destroyed families and terrible toll it takes on the addicted person...it should be pretty obvious a lot of addicts aren't choosing to stay in this situation willingly. Their constant use of drugs makes it appear they are willing...but what they are is in the grip of a thing which has tentacles in their brain and refuses to allow anything like normal choice...right & wrong...even physical survival to be more important.
Addicts may well be responsible for the initial drug use leading to their eventual addiction. Once in the throes of active addiction they may well have no real, demonstrable ability to stop or deal with it on their own. They need help. But make no mistake: an addict MUST assume full responsibility for his or her recovery, once that help is given and the diagnosis confirmed.
As for payment? No easy answers. You could argue it many ways. But the cost of drug use in terms of crime and lost productivity is immense. There would be an argument that publicly funded treatment could save the public money in the long term...but only if generally successful. Failed treatment is money wasted. Not one in a thousand addicts is in a position to self-pay for their inpatient rehabilitation. Most of us who work very productively couldn't afford self-pay either. Incarceration has already proven to be a no-win in terms of cost and recovery outcome. Certainly incarceration plays a valuable role early on if criminal activity has occurred. There's probably nothing better for getting the point home...drugs have done this to you. And that opens the door to abstinence and recovery strategies. But the cost of treatment will never be easy to afford for the majority...and the high odds of relapse make it even more of an expensive conundrum.
I am no expert,, but have responded to numerous heroine overdoses in recent history.....
If you ask me,, for a person to resort to using heroine... they have reached rock bottom in their life and are suicidal...... It's well known that there is usually no return from heroine, and it isn't something used recreationally..... people that turn to it want to die..... and a lot are......
With all due respect. Opiates are opiates no matter what you call them oxycodone, oxycotin, percocet, roxacet etc. Not true that there is no return from opiates or heroine. Far and away the most people taking these drugs are not heroine addicts who you may find curled up in a ball on a city corner but your respected neighbor in every walk of life who are secret closet addicts whom you would never suspect. If the truth be told I would bet there opiate addicts reading this post right here on the CF no matter that they believe it or not. The reason being the age factor on the CF is the target audience for opiates. Age eventually brings on ailments of pain and discomfort and ailments must be controlled. Sadly the prescription and use of opiates by everyday Americans, is totally out of control. Numbers do not lie. Here is a little wake up call...more than 1 in 3 Americans take some form of PRESCRIBED pharmaceutical opiate that is RECORDED. Recorded. The real shocker...heroine in street form is less powerful than these prescribed opiates. Hard to believe I know because when we think of a heroine addict we see that person curled in ball in agony in the street. In truth it is your neighbors in the greatest numbers flipping the burgers at your barbecue.
DON'T DO IT.
Show them that it is a moral choice and then they can make the decision based on right and wrong. For some, they have convinced themselves that nothing is wrong if they "feel like" doing it or it is "legal." That is their choice.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams
The true sadness in all of this is that for the most part it isn't born from behavior as much as consequence. You can teach your child and show them the correct path and yes they will choose. When a doctor prescribes, faith and confidence comes into play that the right decision is being made for them or you, beyond your scope of medical knowledge to question that decision or advice. Therein lays the pitfall releasing the patient from unintended guilt. DON'T DO IT...............
DON'T DO IT.
The very difficult thing for most to understand? The only thing that brings them relief (from their feelings) is the thing which ultimately brings more misery and maybe death: more of the drug their brain craves and demands they take. Imagine something which (mistakenly) feels so powerfully good that it will lead a person to destroy anything and everything they have good in their lives...the final price being their lives.
Opiates are like snakes. They can do very good things. Leave them alone and they bring no harm. Mess with them or come in contact through no fault of your own and they can bite you with a venom that never lets you leave the snake alone again. Be aware.
Happiness is a choice. I don't believe anyone chooses to be unhappy or bored. Happiness is not just a choice, after the drive for food and sex happiness, is the number one driver of human behavior. When people believe that drinking or doping is the key to happiness they pursue that avenue. As I stated above, providing healthy avenues for happiness for young people is key to reducing substance abuse issues.
My sincere heartfelt sympathies for your family. I will pray for them this eve for their agonizing loss.
I have had a lot of physical ailment and pain in my life. Some of it was severe and some of it was simply life. The one constant I've noticed over the last 20 years is the frequency in which these drugs have been prescribed to me. and the doses that were prescribed. Knee surgeries equal opioid prescriptions. Throat surgery equals opioid prescription. Nose surgery equals opioid prescription. Cancer surgery equals opioid prescription. Pain and discomfort during cancer treatments equaled opioid. It was endless. And the initial prescriptions were backed up with refills for all these surgeries. Only in the last 5 years has there been a watchful eye by the doctor when prescribing these things.
In all fairness, I don't not blame the doctors though. They were simply using an effective tool. Not initially knowing the effect it would have on some people. As education of this drug has progressed, so has their awareness. It isn't their fault. It's not big pharma's fault either. It is the people who become addicted to it. It isn't like one hit and they were hooked. They had to work at becoming dependent on it. Like all other vises. So, they are to blame.
I do know that doctors and all healthcare professionals are being charged with making the most unhealthy culture in the world, comfortable. I understand pain. I've lived most of my life with it. I'm also middle aged and, its becoming a more natural part of life due to default. It's just life. Suck it up butter cups. And be responsible for yourself and your own happiness.
It should be noted that a large percentage of abusers were not hooked through prescriptions as well. They were street buyers looking for a good time, that possessed the right personality that saw them become hooked by repeatedly buying and abusing the drug from street pushers. So, I think it is fine time to look at where these pills are truly coming from.
The SSI abuse in this country from younger, otherwise healthy adults is a huge contributor. In order to get a disabled label, one must posses a disability. With a disability comes pain. with a government entitlement mindset, one got welfare, then free healthcare, then free drugs when they repeatedly visit the doc for a "bad back". They ether become hooked themselves or self the things for HUGE money.
This has just been my experience living in the "Hillbilly Heroin" capital of the world. I say the government is one of the the biggest contributor's in all this, second only to those abusers. By design or not, that's just the way it is. It's just the results of liberal policy.
The problem could be fixed very easily. It wouldn't be pretty. and, it will hurt for a while. But, I say that with full knowledge of what these addictions do to a family, community, etc..... We'd all be better off. God Bless men
Sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences to you, your brother and the family.
"My worst nightmare would be to bury my own child, or grandchild. Praying myself....."
Sorry for your family's loss.
The process of addiction is probably also different for different people. I remember my mom telling about the first time her brother drank, he came home drunk (I think she said he was 14). She believed that he was already an alcoholic that night. Though dried out many times, he always went back and ended up passing out in a car in the cold and not surviving the night.
Some are easily addicted and some not so much. One body may tolerate alcohol, but easily succumb to a different substance. We really don't know everything there is to learn about the process and how to prevent the tragic loss of lives it causes. As Spike (and others here) can attest, the addicted is not the only victim.
I still remember being about 12 and deciding I would not consume alcohol or tobacco (having seen how it damaged so many aunts and uncles and how their families suffered). I am thankful that I made that decision.
He said literally ONE taste triggers this gene.
While I get responsibility if you want to see how tough it is to deal with it I was once told to stop eating anything with sugar for a month and you will know in a very small way what they are going through.
Pretty interesting.....I never heard of this alcohol gene so I did a little looking around. It seems it's possible there could be something to it but it is unknown exactly if this trigger is all hereditary. All of the sites I looked at said other factors come into play such as behavior and cultural factors.
It does bring up a good discussion point. For the sake of the discussion let's say alcoholism is hereditary. If a person has this "alcohol gene", should they not consume alcohol? This gets back to the thread OP, if they do consume alcohol knowing they have the alcohol gene and then trigger this gene, it's my view they would be responsible for what may occur.
My grandfather drank almost every waking hour of his life. Not even racing off with me (10yr old) using his extra key after a cop had called us a ride and was going let him off from a DUI, stopped him from drinking. Then when he was about 60 he just decided to quit after backing into a phone pole which he had done like 5 times previous. He was your textbook alcoholic and bootlegged with his uncle as a child. Six years sober when he passed.
Guess I am just glad I don't have a birth defect like the tobacco, alcohol, opiate, gay, or what ever other gene is all the rage. I will pray for you guys though....
Too much sea salt or rather lack of iodine jacks up the Thyroid....
Some people are bigger than others but ration their diet and the "FAT" gene goes dormant in most folks.....;^)
So, since you have no other way to deal at that point, you can quickly become both physically and psychologically addicted.
I think learning this in Physiology classes, has helped me to avoid Opiates even when I had them prescribed. Sometimes knowing how addiction can start, can help someone avoid it.
It is hard. Life isn't always fair either. But, the responsibility to be the person we were intended to be lies within us all. And, is not to be lost when our own caused problems are blamed upon something else because it's easier to play the victim and cave in versus expressing a little bit of will power.
I'm sorry for the family's and affected people of the addicts. But, no one is to blame but the addicts. And, if they require rehabilitation, part of it should be job placement when they are done, until they pay the bill. Our tax dollars are being spent on them anyways. Put them to work cleaning up trash, doing road work, etc.....If they don't agree, then don't help them. Let the family and, their enablers deal with them until they over dose or come to their sense's. I'm sorry but that is the way I feel. No one wants uncomfortable change until they are out of options. It takes rock bottom to be out of options.
Rehabilitation rates are low as is. This new policy or awareness won't change that. It's simply going to be another government mess up. Wasted money with minimal results. God Bless men
We have seen a huge influx of heroin overdoses at work in the last year or 2...... But I can't say that I've seen an overdose on prescription drugs that led to death..... But I'm not saying it isn't happening....
That being said......my brother in law is bad. Has ODd several times on heroin and been brought back from death 2 time in the last 6 months. He just cannot seem to stop. Goes to jail for parole violation and gets off it and then back to same old same in a matter of a few weeks once out.
Writing is on the wall and I sure hope he gets it together for my wife, in-laws, and his 2 young kids......but I have serious doubts.
Drug addiction is just suicide on the installment plan.
And pretty much anyone can see that the very first time you stick a heroin needle in your arm it's very highly likely to end up as a death sentence....... I agree with you...... It is suicide on the installment plan. A person who resorts to heroin has already hit rock bottom in their life for whatever reason..... and doesn't care if or when the heroin kills them. After they inject it once.... it is usually too late to rethink those thoughts because now the drug has them addicted......
But it is possible to be a responsible consumer of alcohol or even marijuana.......
There is no such thing as responsible use of heroin.....
Like Pit Bulls.....Sorry wrong thread
K Cummings's Link
A number of studies show that used as prescribed, opioid pain killers are relatively safe. It isn't until they are abused for their euphoric affect that they become a problem.
Interesting to note:
"75 percent of all opioid misuse starts with people using medication that wasn’t prescribed for them—obtained from a friend, family member or dealer."
While I am sure that there are people that become addicted "innocently," it would appear that the majority of problems arise when the drugs are not taken as, or for who they were prescribed.
Live, work, and survive around this crap and the effects it has on EVERYONE in society and, all these superstitious, incorrect, bleeding heart ideas of what caused it, who's doing it, and how to stop it becomes really pitiful to read. It becomes a problem when the people who are addicted to them puts forth the effort to become hooked on them. Period. And, more times than not, it isn't the average joe who had his knee replaced.
All I am telling you is that at work I am not seeing deaths due to prescription drugs..... I am seeing a lot of heroin overdoses..... People in health care jobs here corroborated that....
If prescription drugs are causing deaths...... Maybe it can be attributed to people illegally using the pills as KPC said...... then when they can't get their hands on pills anymore,, they turn to heroin ????
All of the overdoses that I can ever recall that I went on were overdoses of various types of medications that were in the house....Tylenol for example....and not fatal..... I've never been sent to a house where someone had died from prescription opioids.....
I have been to NUMEROUS heroin overdoses in the last 2 years..... some fatal and some brought back to life by the medics.....With Narcan...... Heroin overdoses are becoming so commonplace that Police Departments are in the beginning stages of carrying Narcan and training Officers to use it......
Why save them? Some believe their lives are worthless.
They may be addicted to a horrible drug, but that doesn't mean they don't have people that love them. Mothers, brothers...children..they don't stop loving someone because they've made a galactically stupid mistake, and so long as they are alive an addict has a chance to get sober..small a chance as it might be, it's still a chance they wouldn't have otherwise.
I also say otherwise because it is my belief from experience that true love requires letting them stand for their actions. God can do anything but, he is FREE WILL on individual choices. Enabling the addict is not helping them. And, no one changes an addiction until they are out of options. Deciding to let things run the course that has been chosen is not a sign of heartless action. It is a sign of true love when dealing with an addict. God Bless men
While I do understand what your saying, if I'm standing there with a dose of lifesaving medicine, and there's still breath in the addicts body, then I'm going to give them the Narcan. If God wants to stop me and let that person die, He'll have to do it Himself.
Our first instinct should always be to preserve life, and I'm not about to let somebody die just because *I think* God would want them dead.
That's just nuts.
Our first instinct should always be to preserve life, and I'm not about to let somebody die just because *I think* God would want them dead.
That's just nuts."
I agree on saving a ife. However, what's nuts MikeB is you insinuating I said anything differently. Never did I say, insinuate, or plan to watch an overdose victim just die. I'd do everything in my power to stop it. I was plainly referring to living with them and helping them reach the point that they want to quit bad enough to QUIT. Never did I propose to watch an overdose victim die. And I find that insinuation ignorant. It took a great effort on your part to come up with that versus what I did say.
That's nuts and a few other things too. None of which is what I said or implied.
Regardless of the topic WVM, welcome to the CF.
This is the phrase that, IMO, implied just letting the person expire (ie: .."run the course that has been chosen"). Your position has been pretty hard-core throughout the thread, so my presumption was based on your overall tone. You knew what you were thinking when you wrote it, but unfortunately, I couldn't read your mind.
However, if I misunderstood your intent, my apologies.
I had a choice to drink or not to drink...but, I don't condemn an individual that has an addiction because for some people it's not easy to quit an addiction.
When you are dealing with a family member that is a pill addict, everyone wants to tell you how to act and, what you need to do to help those addicted. From afar I add. Well, I've dealt with more than I care too. And, that's what I've come too. You can't help them if they don't want the help. And as long as they have your affection, your money, your help, they will NOT change.
K Cummings's Link
But unlike someone who is addicted to heroin.... She will never be charged with a crime.....
She will simply continue to shop for a different doctor until she gets her script filled.... She did it over 20 times in a year.....
Isn't she just as guilty of a crime as someone who uses heroin ??
Only if she is not a famous conservative broadcaster....
However, if she's caught selling, buying (illegally), or manufacturing, that's a different story.
At what point does it become criminal ?? She's obviously an addict. If she buys heroin it's a felony.....
The best bet for a heroin addict to get clean is in jail....
I agree, but the problem is that addict gets out of jail, goes right back to their old friends and they are right back where they started. There needs to be some type of mandatory rehab immediately following their release, and that it be a condition of their release. They longer you can keep them away from it the better their chances for staying clean.
As for the "Doc Shopping", I believe there is a law against this in my state (WA), and all opioid patients have to see a pain specialist clinic before they are prescribed any opioid. They (patients) are also heavily monitored as to being in compliance with the prescribed amount they use daily.
Because opiates are killing people........
And the people who survive being addicted to them have their lives destroyed. They would steal from their family to support their habit...
Make it legal and tax it.
How about gambling ?? Should it be legal or illegal ?? They sent me to the house of a guy one time who sat at the blackjack table and blew his brains out with a pistol right at the table after losing big time.... To notify his family.....
Should church bingo be legal ?? It is gambling.... right ??
The options are to return to religion and morality or expect an increasingly authoritarian and corrupt government.
My desire is that people do none of the things on their (oops, your list) list because they choose not to.
BTW, non-profit sponsored gambling is illegal in many places.
As I have stated multiple times - enforce a law or get rid of it.
Mike B's Link
A man can ask a woman for a date, take her to a dinner, a movie and then a motel (if they're both willing) for sex, spend a couple hundred dollars and it's perfectly legal. The same man can ask the same woman for sex for $200 and it's illegal, even if they both consent. Same act, same results, same health risks, except with one the government isn't part of the deal. If it were then no problem.
I'm well aware of the dark side of prostitution and it IS a factor. But if you look simply at the act itself it seems rather hypocritical to say if you spend money for sex that's guaranteed it's a crime, but if it's not it isn't. Whaaa....????
Then I told myself I would only smoke when I drank. That just increased my beer consumption...8^)
One New Years Day I was sitting at home by myself and realized I only had 4 smokes left. It was cold and snowy out and the roads were bad. I also had a bad cold. Decided then and there I was tired of being a slave to the damn things and decided I would quit after smoking my last 4.
I did and haven't touched one since and haven't even had the desire to smoke one ever since. Maybe the first couple of weeks or so, but today I can be standing in a room full of smokers and it doesn't cause me to want one at all.
The moral? An addict ain't gonna quit until they are ready to quit...JMO
....I would say are ABLE to quit. Good news you kicked the habit which takes willpower. Congrats. Nicotine and opioids are two completely different animals not sharing the same universe with its clutches.
I assume some of you watched Tucker last night I assume most who did, saw where a good bit of this medicine is being paid for by our own government. It seems that all insurance companies EXCEPT government insurance, require pre-approval for the med's. However, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Veterans association, does not have a check in place for people that go from Doctor to Doctor to get these things.
Once again, our government is as guilty here as anyone. An any addict will keep going until THEY want to quit. Government intrusion is not the answer. Look at what they have done to their clients. And, Rocky, you might be right to an extent. but, these everyday people don;t stay profitable, contributing members of society very long after becoming hooked on these things. It isn't hard to tell who is and who isn't. And the trail of broken lives is soon to follow.
This stuff is bad. However, it does good for those that need it. So, Don't blame the doctor's. Don't blame the pharmaceutical companies. Blame the people that WORKED at getting hooked on it. And, don't enable them. There is no easy way to break from an addiction. No easing off. No compromises of methadone. They gotta hit rock bottom before the WANT to fix it, over shadows the desire to get another hit. It is no different than a smoker, an alcoholic, etc..... God Bless
But you could. Nicotine addiction and opioid addiction are the same in that they both have strong physical and psychological components.
Both effect dopamine levels in much the same way. The progression of addiction is very similar, and even many of the withdrawal symptoms are the same.
Congrats on giving up cigarettes by the way. I quit in much the same way you did. I just finally came to the conclusion that I didn't want to do it any more and stopped.
Your problem is you do not possess Critical Pontificating skills. Get ready, his next move is to try and suck you into one of his blatherskite back and forth's of what IS is, as he fabulust's , twists and spin's while trying to squirm his way away around what he said.
Nice try with all the big words slade, but again you fail. Put down the thesaurus and and do just a little research.
"Research has shown that nicotine is just as addictive as heroin. The progression of addiction is the same for nicotine as it would be for heroin, or cocaine, or alcohol. The user starts with maybe just one cigarette a day, then it goes to two, then three, before they know it they are smoking a half pack a day, or more. The user’s tolerance rises, requiring more nicotine to get the same “feel good” effect, and also more nicotine to avoid the withdrawal symptoms.
Nicotine is found in any tobacco product including cigarettes, cigars and chew tobacco. Most fluid used for electronic cigarettes also includes nicotine and each bottle varies in the amount.
The Center for Disease Control (CDC) says nicotine dependence is the most common form of chemical dependence in the United States. Withdrawal from nicotine dependence on nicotine can cause symptoms similar to withdrawal from other drugs, including irritability, anxiety, difficulty concentrating, insomnia, restlessness, and increased appetite. These symptoms may begin within a few hours after the last cigarette, quickly driving people back to tobacco use. Symptoms peak within the first few days of smoking cessation and usually subside within a few weeks. For some people, however, symptoms may persist for months."
"Nicotine and opiates are very different drugs, but the endpoint, with respect to the control of dopamine signaling, is almost identical. "There is a specific part of the nucleus accumbens where opiates have been shown to affect behavior, and when we tested nicotine in that area, the effects on dopamine are almost identical."
Maybe you'll get luckyand one of your buds will come to your rescue and divert attention by calling me a name or posting a moronic picture.
They do talk about "discrete packaging"...
Now comes the "sex addiction is the toughest addiction"... 'cause it feeeeeels sooooo gooood!
So. I didn't come to anyone's rescue. I may have diverted attention... but without name calling. And I didn't post a moronic picture. I posted a moronic link.
Humans have been aware of opiates for more than 500 years. Extremely refined opiates have been around for a couple hundred years or so. Mary Todd Lincoln was a laudanum addict. Opiate cocktails were sold without prescription until 1914 or 1915.
Were there addicts? Yes. Are there addicts now? Yes.
Will there be addicts in the future? Yes.
Do I think that anyone who becomes addicted has a responsibility to find the help they need to get it under control? Yes.
Time and again it's stated that an addict has to hit bottom and make the decision to face their addiction.
So. There's not really anything that I can do for them.
Whadya want me to do? Wring my hands and wail?
There's some pontification for ya.
Careful there OB, with posts like that, you're going to be labeled one too. You might even have a meme made for you, and be called a FRAUD!!! Heck, someone could even go all Thomas Fuller on ya...
Oh, the horror!!
What a joke.
She has four titanium plates and twenty two titanium screws in her head from a Le Fort III. Combining your skull with an Erector Set calls for some opiates. They were used. They were not abused.
I am grateful that they exist. I can't imagine trying to manage serious pain with Tylenol.
I am very sad that the titanium plates do not set off metal detectors at the airport. I was really looking forward to being in public, responding to the beeping by tapping my index finger on my skull, announcing, "Plates in her head. Multiple metal plates in her head."
For the record, I have on numerous occasions, been prescribed and used opioids for pain management. I used them as prescribed, and stopped using them when they were no longer needed to relieve pain, or when OTC options were sufficient.
How moronic is it for someone to say please use them and abuse them and then then tell us how easy it is to get off them. As if use and abuse are the same thing.
Aside to Hawkarcher: Would you mind if I asked some questions pertaining to your sister's situation or would you prefer to not discuss it?
Hawkarcher, God Bless you and I ache for your sister and that tragedy which could have been prevented if someone realized.
Take the stick option or another effective non-narcotic prescription medication.
Opioids work no doubt about it then go right to work on you for long term pain management. I deal with these people 2 nights a week and prescribed opioid addicts stories are all the same: "I got hooked for two reasons: the 5-325 every 6 hrs. worked great but then it just wasn't working as well. I told my doctor and he upped me to 10 mg every 6 hrs. and then it snowballed from there. I tried to quit but the pain, the weakness, the aches, the flu like symptom's and the diarrhea were just too much. I had to get to work to make money". Same basic story. These symtom's can last for weeks and months on end let alone the depression. Can you say "tough guy"?
DON'T DO IT!
Most opioid (heroine) addicts that comprise raw numbers do NOT die from overdoses, they continue to live and work in your neighborhood. This article is from 2015. Check out the most recent numbers of seniors addicted across the country. The street addict you dies from overdoses is not even a blimp on the map. Up standing citizens are the walking addicts in the largest numbers.
K Cummings's Link
I can't vouch for the accuracy but it does seem to be well sourced.
Read the article when it came out. It's my hometown paper. The deaths are coming from fentanyl laced heroin. I know you want to blame it on prescription drugs.... ain't the case. And the majority (25% isn't a majority) are coming from fentanyl laced heroin. Three of my daughters friends OD'd. Wasn't from oxycotin, hydrocondone, or other prescription drugs.... it was from smack. The Lancaster Sunday news ran a series on junkies a little while back. There was one guy, nicknamed "Iron Mike" that was a junkie, he OD'd and died and was like 36 years old. The reporter that covered it said based on statistics he lived about 10-12 years longer than he should have, cuz most junkies are dead by their mid 20's.
"Two years ago today my older sister died of an apparent opioid overdose. Previous to that she had kicked the habit, as it were. She was proud to be off drugs which were legally prescribed. Broke her ankle and took some Vicodin, at the level she was used to."
When I read this, I was curious why, with her history, she would have taken Vicodin again? Was it prescribed by a physician, and if so was he not aware of her issues with opioids in the past? How long had she been clean prior to that?
Again, if that's too personal, I understand. I was just curious how this could have happened?
If I ever have my face sawed into pieces and bolted back together, I think that I might want opiates. Or, like a buddy of mine who had his arm nearly ripped off in an industrial accident with a Flight For Life Helicopter ride and emergency surgery. Maybe then too, like him. Or my neighbor's friend. His daughter's dirtbag boyfriend stabbed him 47 times. The tough old guy survived somehow, but he was on some opiates for a few days. I am not a doctor, but I believe that's their purpose; acute pain after traumatic injury and surgery.
I have some tangential connections to people who've abused prescription drugs. They had all started recreationally and kept rolling.
I think that people should be careful. I don't think that opiates should be used to get a buzz.
No need to apologize Hawkarcher.
Thanks, and again, I am very sorry.
If I had to guess, and it would only be a guess, the percentage would be relatively small.
I would request a script from my doctor for a powerful broad spectrum antibiotic to carry with me on wilderness canoe trips and back country trips. They were in case of some dire emergency to help hold infection in check while evacuating to a hospital.
Hawkarcher - I am sorry if something I posted contributed to the reigniting of memories of your sister's passing.
I am not getting "pissed". I am right next to this opioid problem twice a week four hrs each night. That is all I know. Take it for what its worth and play it down to those who may be listening that they have nothing to worry about if their doctor prescribes opioids for pain relief. I know the traps and their inner workings from the "horse"s mouth, but hey believe whatever you want.
Not to mention that the ones that manage to avoid the obits, become very skillful liars, manipulators, and masters at shifting blame.
That's surprising to me... I would have guessed it would be the other way around.....
Regardless.... It's pointless to argue about which is more of a problem...... They are both clearly a huge problem....
And I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the numbers on the increase for 2016 and 2017.......
Where does someone get a prescription from ? Their doctor ? Maybe they procure some from their parents prescription... or other family member...... or a friend..........
Where does someone get heroin from ?? They buy it from a lowlife street drug dealer....
Which is easier for a middle class kid to obtain ???
It's one thing to say that XX % of overdose deaths were related to "prescription pain relievers" and XX % was related to "heroin," however like many statistics the devil is often in the details.
What is not being told is of the percentage of people who died from an overdose of "prescription pain relievers", was that prescription for the person who overdosed, or if so, did they take them in the manner in which prescribed.
If Johnny steals a bottle of Vicodin from his parents medicine cabinet and sells it to Suzie who proceeds to crush it, snort it, and OD at a party, that is going to show up as an overdose from "prescription pain medication." Every bit as illicit as if she had been shooting heroin that she bought on the street.
However, when we read that Suzie died of an overdose of "prescription pain relievers," the implication is that Suzie surely must have inadvertently gotten sucked in and addicted when she had her wisdom teeth removed, broke her finger playing volleyball, or whatever other innocent reason. Yes, there most certainly are those, but there are just as many that were just looking for kicks at a party.
Everybody is SURE but is obviously taking a guess from their experience which is limited I would hope and pray. I talk to these people, week in and week out, working people that you would never dream was addicted to doctor prescribed opioids, until they realized there was no way out on their own. Heroine is a distant last in strength and power to addict compared to Percocet, Perkadan, Oxycodone or Oxycottin (THE ABSOLUTE KING AND MOST POWERFUL) which are all is pharmaceutical.
I am being adamant about this because I would hope somebody, anybody, just one person believes me, and I freighten them half to death about this inconceivable destructive monsters and they say, no way, I will smash my big toe with a hammer first to deflect even the thought of use. Stay away from these devils because they are always in the shadows just waiting for the unsuspecting.
Eventually the NSAID's ate a hole thru the duodenal portion of my stomach (perforated ulcer), which is basically the end of the stomach that feeds the food into the small intestines once that food has been digested sufficiently. Nearly died....
Surgeon said I would've been far better off taking opioid pain pills than the NSAID's, and that NSAID injuries & deaths were reaching near epidemic levels. She said she had performed 3 emergency surgeries like mine in the past month.
Good Luck and don't look back. You are giving yourself and your family a gift. I applaud your decision.
I think they mean "accidental" as opposed to suicide (intentional). I don't think ingesting fentanyl, oxycodone, temazepam, alprazolam, citalopram, acetylfentanyl and despropionyl fentanyl simultaneously could be considered an accident. The only accident was that he died from it.
I don't know the answer to your question but to keep things in perspective, I looked up comparative death rates per 100k people and according to this source, it would appear that compared to "drug use" (6.96 people per 100,000), more people die from traffic accidents (9.99 per 100k), about the same from "falls" (6.27 per 100k) and substantially less than cancer (130.74 per 100k) and coronary artery disease (77.97 per 100k).
K Cummings, unfortunately real familiar with the cancer stat.Wife passed away with horrific stomach cancer and only requested any kind of "painkiller" her last day here, I know as I took care of her.
I've got real strong feelings about abusers of pain meds, and for the better will keep my sentiments about them off this site.
Just like any other addiction, some people kick it on their own, some people require help, some people kick it and subsequently relapse, some people die from the effects of it, and some people live with it until they die of something else.
What exactly is your point?
I have a step son that abuses them. He has never has a prescription for them to become hooked through prescription use. He just chooses to get high and escape reality because he is a dead beat.
I tell you about this not for sympathy. I could tell you of a half dozen other cases within close family that I could add to that, if that were the case. So, understand that isn't the reason. What is the reason has to do with how these were/are two totally different people. In different situations. They are on both sides of what is being rationalized as the problem. The one thing they both share though and, they share with every single opioid addict, is their willingness to choose to take them to the point they become a problem.
Most all of the addicts were/are good, decent people. No one is denying that. What is being lost in all this is the personal responsibility each human is responsible for. When you watch a loved one laying in their death bed dying from cancer, you soon realize these pills are not evil. They have a very good purpose. And, when you have taken some prescribed and, know for yourself that they aren't some kind of magical evil just waiting to suck you in, you realize again that every single addict has worked to become that.
Don't blame the doctors. As I stated before, our own government is responsible for more of these pills on the streets and more unmonitored abuse of these drugs then any other agency. Their government policy plans allow for 235 of these pills to be prescribed to anyone on medicaid, medicare, or a vet patient/per month. They have no checks like general insurance when doctors prescribed them. So, you get the poor and the elderly alike, given a fortune of these things a month to sell for big money. And, that is what they did/do. What makes you think government policy is going to fix this?
Rock, I applaud you for giving your time to help your fellow man. I understand your feelings. There are people like you describe that make up those statistics. However, there has never been nor ever will be a human that ever takes them that doesn't make the choice to become and addict. I live around and with this crap daily. And, have yet to meet an "innocent addict". They all made that choice for themselves. God Bless men
So many of you Monday morning quarterbacks seem to know so much. Few of you have had to deal with patients in front of you begging for help and relief from pain. Few of you have had to look a person in the eyes and try and gauge how reliable they are to tell the truth and their actual need. Few of you have had the responsibility to be that person that is either going to make a difference or not. And few of you have had to deal with the the outcomes that are disproportionately good, but still some that are bad because as a human, you still have to make a decision and you can't make them all right, all the time.
There are a few bad apples, but in general, most of us are doing our best and doing a good job. For many people working in the US today, a poor decision means something inanimate breaks. When we screw up, someone dies. We are not Jesus Christ. We make the best decisions we can based on what we know. It's not always right. And everyone dies... sometimes there's not a damn thing we can do when someone is Hell bent on screwing themself over.
A lot of this, rests not on our shoulders, but on the shoulders of people who decide to be pieces of shit. And it may sound bitter, but we spend an incredible amount of our time and effort on pieces of shit who make horrible decisions and I'm sorry, but those poor decisions are on them. I'll take responsibility for my bad decisions and I go to bed seeing the faces of those that I wasn't good enough to save. But I won't take the heat for people who KNOW that what they're doing is against medical advice and do it anyways. A lot of these accidental overdoses aren't pieces of shit, but they're still grown adults who know they're making a decision that is not only against medical advice, but often times against the law. Is there no such thing as personal responsibility anymore? If I trip, is it the curb's fault?
And that's what the bulk of drug abusers are. There are a bunch of good people who get caught up and are weak, but I've been dealing with these people for decades. Drug abusers are drug abusers are drug abusers. For the most part, they shrug off being upstanding citizens and make very poor decisions. These poor decisions often times lead them to accidental overdose. It's rare anymore to see someone who had a legitimate acute injury dying of accidental overdose. It's people who did not follow medical advice or became addicted and sought drugs their bodies wanted because they were addicted, not because they needed them. And most of these ODs are people taking more than what was prescribed, getting meds from multiple docs, lying to docs, getting drugs off the street, mixing alcohol with them which is says right on the bottle not to do, etc.
The other thing that is not understood is how the govt and the medical organizations came in 20 years ago and pushed us to over treat pain. The US govt made pain the "5th vital sign." States, such as where I practiced till a few years ago, California, actually made it a state law that you had to treat pain. If a patient was in pain and you didn't treat it, you were subject to the state penal code. Can you imagine how that affected us? Adding state sanction into our daily thought process?
I could go on and on. All I know, is that if people could walk a day in the shoes of a prescriber, I think a lot of people with an opinion would have their eyes opened.
K Cummings's Link
Very good points all.
I don't think there are any easy answers to this problem as there is probably equal amounts of blame to go around.
I am confident of one thing though. The federal government, in their infinite wisdom, are masters at shifting blame for problems that they have, at least in part, created themselves.
When Medicare and Medicaid started tying reimbursements to pain management satisfaction surveys, this "epidemic" seems to be in large part one of unintended consequences.
"What pains me most as a physician is the knowledge that this epidemic is largely man-made, fueled by federal regulations linking pain management to Medicare reimbursement."
"Put simply, the opioid epidemic is the result of a massive shift in public policy surrounding pain management, introduced by an array of special-interest groups."
As is often the case, the only thing government entities and politicians can do is look for a deep pockets entity to clean up the mess they helped create.
"Rather than admitting that the current crisis is the result of unintended consequences, state attorneys general are hunting for deep-pocketed scapegoats to offset their states’ drug-treatment costs. Attempting to replicate the success of the coalition of state attorneys general who successfully sued “Big Tobacco” in the 1990s, eight state and local governments have filed lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies that produce opioid pain killers. Each suit is slightly different, but the central allegation is the same: As Mississippi attorney general Jim Hood has argued, “Pharmaceutical companies have made billions of dollars in profits by misrepresenting to tens of millions of doctors and patients the significant dangers of prescription opioids.” The move to treat the pharmaceutical industry like the tobacco industry misses the mark. This is not to deny that pharmaceutical companies have played a role; I firmly believe that there should never be another FDA-approved opioid approved that does not have an abuse-deterrent formulation. (In September the chair of the president’s opioid commission announced a partnership with the pharmaceutical industry to boost the development of non-addictive medicines.) But we need to recognize these lawsuits for what they are: a billion-dollar lawsuit lottery for the plaintiffs’ bar that ignores the government’s own role in the genesis of the crisis."
I have an idea, let's make more mind-altering drugs easier to get.
Mike B's Link
K Cummings's Link
As was stated before,
"Rather than admitting that the current crisis is the result of unintended consequences, state attorneys general are hunting for deep-pocketed scapegoats to offset their states’ drug-treatment costs."
Sadly, government entities are famous for helping to create problems and then expect the private sector fund and fix them.
This is, in part, why prescription drugs cost what they do.
I don't think there is any doubt about this, at least not in my mind. In my opinion, when it comes to something like this you can throw all the generalizations out the window, including the one that suggests that every opioid prescription is a ticking time bomb that is just waiting to hook the innocent and convert them into heroin addicts.
Just like alcohol, there are millions upon millions of people that use it responsibly and never become addicted, and some people, for reasons unknown to anyone, including themselves, can't seem to do that.
Not sure that I ever met either of them (definitely not the nephew). Still sad.