BREAKING: Charges Against Rancher Cliven Bundy and 3 Others Dismissed – Judge Cites “Flagrant Prosecutorial Misconduct”
To the guys saying, "Criminal went free" did they really? You are hearing the gov portrayal from guys CONVICTED of misconduct. When the full force of gov is to to get you....its a bad deal.
Now no doubt the Bundys aren't squeaky clean on this but they were dealing with BLM folks that were dirty, dirty, dirty. Factor that in.....
They do it because it’s not their money they waste. I would gurentee you if federal prosecutors were docked pay for every case they didn’t win there would be a fraction of federally prosecuted cases.
God bless, Steve
Glad to see the jackbooted thugs get slapped!
The government prosecutors on the case messed up big time but that does not excuse the fact that Bundy is a criminal that now walks free.
Then from there it turns into a he said - she said thing.
Says the dope who is a low IQ racist.
Had a black man bilked the US government out of $1M and then staged an armed takeover of federal property slade, sleepy and Spike would have been calling for the National Guard. I guess we should expect right wing nut jobs to stick up for their own kind.
Pretty much every thread that comes along here where the words Jackbooted Thug appear were either started by you or heavily involves you....
"Had a black man...staged an armed takeover of federal property..." happened in NM in TA back in 1967. Except those weren't black, but Hispanic. National guard could've easily been used but it was too remote. Two sheriff deputies were shot in a standoff, one died later on. I work with his son.
No right wing nut job(s). Anything like this, regardless of ancestry, should be treated the same. I hardly believe the Bundy case was such at first. May have been perceived to be later on. More of being made and example of and bad blood from the past two decades and a "vendetta" to be reconciled. Shortly after, the BLM manager for that district was transferred to our local district office.
No wager this time - the federal gov't wasted more in pursuing this than the $1MM owed in grazing fees...
I wanted to cut some alligator Juniper for fence posts. Had done this in the past. So I went to the local FS office and asked for a permit. The lady in the office says, they are doing a juniper thinning in Young (about 20 miles from my house as the crow flies). If you go this week you can go through the piles and pick out the ones you want just use this fire wood permit and is cheaper than the post permit.
So I go to Young, fill up the back of back of truck with 10 footers and head back. For those that don't know AZ, Young is at the foot of the Mogollon Rim. The Mogollon Rim is a topographical and geological feature cutting across the U.S. state of Arizona. It extends approximately 200 miles, starting in northern Yavapai County and running eastward, ending near the border with New Mexico. There are 3 ways to get to Young, through Globe, a 120 mile round trip from my house. The Chamberlain trail, about 20 miles, but a 90 minute drive (Rough Road). Or on top of the rim with 25 miles of good dirt road then highway 260 back down the rim and then a FS road to my place.
I chose the over the top and then back down route as I had use my spare when I ran a tree root through a sidewall. As I turned off the highway and onto the FS road that leads to my house. The road is blocked by a FS truck. I stopped, the jolly green giant comes walking over to my truck. He has his hand on a glock. I roll the window down shut off the engine. "Keep your hands on the wheel, don't move" he walks back to his truck, gets on the radio. Soon I am surrounded by green FS trucks. There is one guy standing at the right rear of my truck his hand on his gun.
The giant walks back to the truck and starts his interrogation.
"Where did you get the logs". Young. I have a permit it's on the dash. "Don't move, hands on the steering wheel". The guy at the back of the truck moves up opens the passenger door and takes the permit. He and the giant walk back to his truck and lay the documents on the hood. They looked at the permit, the map the clerk gave me. They walked back to the back of the truck. Looked at the juniper posts, looked at the permit. Walked back to the cab, "where did you get the permit"? I am scared by this point, there are 3 guys with guns, they are not being real friendly bordering on abusive. Having been in the military I know you don't argue with a guy with a gun and it's yes sir and no sir. So I replied the Payson office of Tonto National Forest. He walks back to his truck and gets on the radio. 30 minute later he comes back, asks for my ID, I asked may I take my hands off the wheel, or do you just want me to shift so you can get my wallet. He told me to take my hands off the wheel and hand him my ID. So I gave him my military id, driver license. Takes them back to the truck, talks on the radio for about 15 minutes. Comes back hands me the id, and says you can go, I asked for my permit. He walks back to his truck comes back with the permit. I will never forget his parting remarks. "In the future be more careful". I didn't respond, Just waited until they left then put my stuff away and drove home all he while just waiting for them to return. No explanation why they stopped me, no apology for being AH's and all the intimidation.
So if someone says something to me about abusive government officials, I can relate.
Annony Mouse's Link
The evidence included:
Records about surveillance at the Bundy ranch;
Maps about government surveillance;
Records about the presence of government snipers;
FBI logs about activity at the ranch in the days leading up to standoff;
Law-enforcement assessments dating to 2012 that found the Bundys posed no threat;
Internal affairs reports about misconduct by Bureau of Land Management agents.
“Failure to turn over such evidence violates due process,” Navarro said last month. “A fair trial at this point is impossible.”
No, but "Internal affairs reports about misconduct by Bureau of Land Management agents" might.
Is it? The BLM guy handling all of this was run out on corruption charges. Is he the same guy controlling the grazing contracts?
You might be right Pig Doc...... but It sure seems to me this whole thing started many years before and it wasn't all Bundy's.
Thats like saying its as simple as Las Vegas needing to grow and destroy desert tortoise habitat so they made a deal with the BLM/USFW to allow them to continue to develop and they would work together to kick ranchers off grazing on 400,000 acres to offset the permanent loss of habitat happening around Las Vegas.
Any chance you got the name of the officer?
In your experience, are officers obligated or otherwise expected to introduce themselves by name? Are there good reasons not to introduce themselves by name? Do many rake offense when asked their name as they depart?
What is a jackboot?
I wouldn't expect that Forest Service guys have a whole lot of experience in traffic stops and citizen contacts.... And if that guy deals with people like that he's bound to get citizen complaints....... After having to deal with a few citizen complaints he'll probably change the way he talks to people......
It sounds like someone called the Forest Service and thought Terry was stealing the wood.... because the forest service guys were down the road waiting for him. If that is the case it would have been in the Officers best interest to explain to Terry that they were responding to a phoned in complaint.... and treat Terry with a little more respect..... Where I work.... half or more of the phoned in complaints turn out to be a big nothing......
The real story is between Bundy's version and the BLM's (not black lives matter).
Pigsbreath like all progressive weenies uses the race card, it's all they have. That and keyboard threats of violence.
Terry - I'm sure you've seen the amount of wood poaching going on lately. Hard to find any legal wood from Heber to Young, yet somehow there are guys with truck-loads for sale by the road daily. That certainly doesn't excuse the way you were treated, but I'm glad to see FS at least trying to enforce the woodcutting areas around the edges of the Reservation there.
No, the real story is that the feds screwed up the entire case and Bundy got off scott free for 20 years of not paying grazing fees and staging an illegal armed occupation of a federal wildlife refuge. Some fools here don't even think he broke the law. I own land adjacent to a federal wildlife refuge in MN. If I showed up on that property with a loaded gun I would be immediately, and rightfully arrested.
We have a cheat and criminal walk free due to failure of the government to prosecute the case properly. We should all be appalled - at Bundy and the feds. Instead we have dopes chearleading the whole fiasco.
Since when does the federal gov't always tell the truth? Evidence shows they didn't this time and the case was dismissed (aka they screwed up the entire case). Think they are telling the whole story on the past 20 years? Or Bundy for that matter? They are telling their versions of it.
What some are cheering is that the BLM flexed muscle they shouldn't have (or didn't need to) and it backfired on them. They failed to take the high road and be the professionals in the matter and stooped to Bundy's level. An armed BLM SWAT Team was hardly warrented.
obama's 8 yrs in office didn't help the matter either...
You're assuming a lot with that statement Dr Evil. Its clear you're the racist. Take your meds, then get some quiet time.
Be very careful when you attempt to use any sort of analogy here. Most people understand them for what they are, however some...and it seems to be the same few every time...simply aren't capable of grasping the correlation.
God bless, Steve
It seems to me as a casual observer.....if the Feds had a solid case against him, why did they "hide" some of the evidence from the defense and court? I would speculate if this was an open and shut case....there was no need for the prosecution to hide anything.
Are you just another over reaching government goon? Or are you a decent police officer doing the best he can?
Everything one says about every and any member of law enforcement isn't neccesary about you or even about police in general!
Get over yourself. I know that police are feeling kinda persecuted right now, mostly for good reason as some people are treating police badly. However, everyone recognizes that there are a small percentage of criminal types in every profession.
Don't take all criticisms of law enforcement personally, ever.
The analogy used, quite frankly, has nothing to do with any of the 'why' the case was dismissed. The real point to all of this is the federal gov't (BLM in this case) isn't the badass they think they are when it comes to the judicial branch. I have seen game wardens lose cases because they jumped the gun, so to speak, on situations they did not do their due diligence on.
It's at this point that things get fuzzy. My question at this point, did the BLM try to open a contract with Bundy so he could continue unmolested? Or did they say... you're gone, based upon some eco/political-economics that is PC... turtle or something?
Excuse me for defending Law Enforcement Officers on Law Enforcement Appreciation Day........
Like I said, apparently you missed the analogy. Pig Doc made no racist rant or diatribe.
He simply stated that the same people who dismiss one person for cheating the government would be all over another for doing the same thing.
"Clive Bundy is a welfare cheat, grazing his cattle on BLM land illegally for 20 years. If he was black and from Detroit the same dopes here cheering him on would want him lynched, but since he is white and wears a hat he is some kind of folk hero.
Whether or not the prosecution was handled right has no bearing on the validity of the analogy. If a food stamp cheat from the hood was set free because of a botched prosecution, there would indeed be a certain group of people here that would be screaming "WHERE'S THE JUSTICE? IF THAT GUY WAS WHITE HE WOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN OFF!!"
Like the analogy or not, it's quite accurate.
Grey Ghost's Link
It started with the Feds establishing a new conservation plan for the land in order to protect the desert tortoise in 1993. Part of the plan was to stop grazing the land, and buy back the grazing privileges from ranchers, and limit off-road vehicle activity. Bundy refused to sell his grazing privileges and refused to remove his cattle.
Bundy refused to acknowledge the feds control over the land, claiming his Mormon ancestors used the land before the Feds took control of it. He continued to graze the land without paying any grazing fees. He then ignored a federal judge's order for him to remove his cows in 1998.
Bundy continued to illegally graze 322,000 acres of BLM land, while forming a local militia of ranchers and others with similar interests, who were willing to fight the Feds. The $1million the Feds claimed he owed was a combination of grazing fees and fines. Bundy claimed he only owed $300,000 in fees.
In 2014, the Feds began rounding up hundreds of Bundy's illegally grazing cattle. They abandoned those efforts when several skirmishes with Bundy's family and his organized militia got dangerous.
In 2016, Bundy's son, and a group of supporters formed a armed occupation of a wildlife refuge building in Oregon to further protest what they felt was federal overreach.
And that brings us to the recent court decision, in which the Federal prosecutors botched.
Kind of like how people are lit up when a poacher is caught - often times they are a white guy not only wearing a hat but sporting a beard, the epitome of the "evil white male".
Whether Bundy is right or wrong, the point is people were pissed about the muscle flex of a bureaucracy and the negative light it sheds. That is the only perception that matters...
Then your as ignorant as Dr Evil.
Evidently it's bothering you Maxine. It always has.
I'm so tired of hearing how bad this family is. I wander how you people would handle being forced out of your way of life? Told you don't matter based on outside eco-driven interests. One thing we must not ever forget is a community composed of mostly government owned or public land has few options for making a living. Driving them out because the Las Vegas eco crowd thinks a turtle might be in trouble really doesn't factor in me. Like Glunt said, they don't seem to mind when Vegas takes more ground for its development. There are ulterior motives here. And, the Bundy's were simply one of the few that decided they needed a little more consideration than a Turtle.
Facts, my critical pontificating groupie and the bow libs don't need no stickin facts to bloviate.
But who knows, my Pontificating Critical Groupie will claim this is another alt right conspiracy fake news site.
DL mentioned that the Feds overstepped their authority in Waco and misused their authority.......
There were mistakes made in Waco. But that doesn't negate the fact that David Koresh was breaking the law having sex with 11 and 12 year old girls......
The only problem with that is the Feds weren't trying to dictate anything on Bundy's deeded homestead. It was the thousands of acres of BLM adjacent to Bundy's homestead that the conservation plan was aimed at.
I have mixed opinions on this one. While I admire Bundy and his family's willingness to stand up and fight the Feds, I think his Morman ancestry justification is weak. Who cares who *used* the land before the Feds took control over it. I'm pretty sure there were Native American Indians who *used* that land too. Do they have the right to continue to use it as they please?
I've also met several ranchers who treat the BLM land they graze as their own property. They limit access to other rightful users with fences and locked gates. They profit from outfitting or trespassing fees from hunters, etc.... It's a problem.
Koresh was a total nut job. He physically and sexually assaulted 11 and 12 year old girls. He preached that the government was going to attack and he turned his followers into a militia.....
Search warrants are executed in America each and every day.... 99.9 % of them are without incident and without shots being fired...And then the arrested party has his day in court...... But Koresh prepared his followers for the big shootout and knew the raid was coming.....
He was holed up in that complex for over a month after the initial raid where 4 ATF Agents (Stormtroopers) and 6 Davidians were killed. He should have sent ALL of the women and children out of the complex in that time.... The only children he sent out were children that were not his... The rest he kept there to die with him..... And the fire didn't kill Koresh..... it was a gunshot to the head... suicide......
It was a tragic event that occurred at WACO..... but one man could have prevented ALL of it..... But that man was a Psycho who thought he was God.... and thought he had the right to have sex with all of his female followers from age 11 and up.....While the male Dividians were to remain celebite...... and brainwashed all of his followers to believe that they must get into a deadly confrontation with the government.......
Koresh was charged with attempted murder..... but the trial ended in a mistrial......
Later ....... Roden killed another man with an axe..... Which allowed Koresh to slide into the leadership role when Roden went to a mental hospital after being found not guilty on account of insanity ......
The only thing nuttier than those 2 wack jobs were the people who followed them and believed Koresh when he told them he was God......
I grew up hunting BLM that was landlocked by private ranches. Our access was by virtue of my Father’s friendship with the one of the ranchers. When that rancher passed control of the ranch to his son, our hunting dynamics changed. His son began charging a access fee that was greater than the $250 that he could legally charge. Then, he and the neighboring ranchers started dictating where we could hunt on the BLM land. They locked gates on the BLM to control where we could travel by vehicle, often saving the best hunting ground for themselves, or for illegal outfitting.
When we objected to these illegal constraints, the son simply denied us access. Over 50 years of great hunting on public land suddenly and sadly ended, as did the relationship between our families. It’s been one of the biggest disappointments in my life, and it was directly attributable to greed and the commercialization of public land.
IMO, there should be no such thing as “landlocked” public ground where adjacent landowners can control access. In those cases, I believe public access easements should be established. Unfortunately, proposals to that extent are fought mightily by ranchers, like Bundy, who feel their grazing rights entitle them to control all activities on the public land.
Yep - and they get a monument out of it sometimes as well...
It seems a handful of people on the Bowsite feel that the Alaska Wildlife Officers spent way too much time and effort and money to investigate Shanksters crimes.....
Then there's the guys who had dealings with Shankster and feel that he got what he had coming to him......
Janet Reno and company are as bad.
The goons involved in these debacles are equally useless. I will not excuse them due to a job title.
Government enforcers need to question their orders. Soldiers are required to refuse illegal orders and can be prosecuted for executing them, why not enforcers?
God bless, Steve
Matt, what I said was just fine. I have zero problems with him doing what he did. He was given no choice, I find it hard to believe that anyone would be torn with how they feel on this. This land is so poor he has to have it in order to ranch at the capacity needed to survive. I also have zero problems with his cattle on that land as of now. The case hasn't been resolved. Remember? Beside's, I don't really see where he has had a choice if he intended to farm but, to let the cattle graze.
Remember, the BLM didn't want his fee's. Said he could no longer buy the lease. The media likes to make it out as if he is stealing something. I don't see it that way. I see him doing what his ancestor's had done when settling his land, then being told he couldn't do that anymore because the far away environmentalists and the Government decided they'd just push him out. This was all part of a bigger agenda to make everyone happy except the Bundy's and, the locals of this area. It reeks of corruption, collusion, and special interest management of public used land.
He could have done things a bit differently to help himself. He's turned a lot of people against him based on his stance of government owned land. But, he hasn't got a fair shake from anyone on this. So, I can sure understand why he feels the way he does.
If there is any justice in this country, the government people responsible for selling this family and 50 others out, should be tried, convicted, and suffer the same fate this family has had to endure. That's what I want to see. I want to see the money trail that bought "development rights" in the same kind of tortoise habitat that cows grazing was deemed harmful too. I think every single American deserves to see how this went down. So, we can expose some of the People and political tools being used to rob us all of our freedoms.
God bless, Steve
Just a thought.
Let's assume I am a logger, and I come from multiple generations of loggers. For whatever reason, the timber on the land I own is no longer enough for me to survive as a logger. Would it be ok for me to log off the federal land that borders my own in order for me to survive?
Or how about this. Let's say I am a financial advisor and I come from a long line of financial advisors. Now let's say the government passes new regulations that substantially alter the way in which I am compensated for the work I do, heavily favoring the large advisory firms while at the same time negatively affecting the individual advisor. Do I need to adapt to the new regulations, change professions, or would it be OK for me to just ignore the new regulations and carry on as I always have?
They did this in order to keep from being sued by the dang eco groups, for allowing grazing to continue on these BLM lands. So, they cooked the management plan to show grazing a potential threat, completely denied it an option in desert tortoise habitat, all the while allowing the development of the pocket padding developers.
We can make it all about the law if you want. But, if we do, we must then find out who was being paid to turn their heads to this ILLEGAL activity. Then prosecute them for corruption and whatever else will stick. All while holding them liable for damages to the ranchers, the community in whole, and lost turtle habitat to Vegas development. I'm all game if you are. Let's get it done. I'm praying for it.
Admittedly, I don't know much about the particulars of this specific case, all I was trying to do was encourage people to look at it from both sides.
Public land is public land. I guess an argument could be made that the turtle freaks have as much say as some rancher in terms of what happens on public land.
In terms of the comparisons I made, the second one I am living right now. So is Kyle. There was just as many backroom dealings that went on, just as many palms being greased, and just as many entities standing to make a lot of money with the passage of the new DOL Fiduciary regulations that have pretty much crippled our industry for going on two years now. Do I agree with them? No. Will they cost me money? Yes. Will they drive a certain number of advisors completely out of their livelihood? Yes. Even so, we have to either adapt, or change professions. That's life. Nobody guarantees that your way of making a living is going to be guaranteed just because your ancestors did made a living that way.
And I am not really a religious person...... and I believe people should try to live a law abiding honest life......
Then where do I fall in your 50/50 split of Americans ????
Bundy is likely a dick and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He made lots of mistakes, IMO while trying to hold on to a family heritage and history, not trying to make himself rich. (I think the feds actually understand and work better with those trying to get rich) But CLEARLY the feds made a good many mistakes as well. Likely all down the line, administrative, enforcement and obviously legally.
The courts, right or wrong made their decision. Personally I'm just kinda..... "encouraged" might be the word. The decision was for the little guy telling an overpowering bureaucratic monster, with management who did nothing to create or build the institutions but ran them like they did...... to go pound sand...... I like that. Kinda warms the heart.
Knowing how they work though...... I hold no hope the feds don't hold a grudge and leave it be.... I have no idea how this all washes out in the end or what the next bureaucratic fed plot will be. It could even come from a weaponized EPA or IRS or who knows, they ALL have SWAT teams now it seems.....
However, that same crowd also expects the uniform to perform their duties with respect to the citizenry without the proverbial chip on their shoulder.
In general, if they can't handle the stress the job entails, find a new profession/career. The rest of us do. Going through life with the belief everyone is a crook is a self inflicted cancer...
I have no doubt that many here will have an unfortunate run in with the government taking stuff from you unjustly if you live long enough.
I am familiar with the actions of the FS in my area, some of which are flat out illegal, and if more people were familiar they would be screaming bloody murder but with each property they take, whether they purchase or not, the precedent is set and the program that much more established. They are taking small populated towns right now in NH and Me but people in larger more southerly populated town's and cities wont be affected for many years even though the plans are there to see right now.
If they want to stop it they need to scream now. It will soon be too late if it isn't already.
Caution your children and grand children to look carefully at any planned refuges and federal holdings before they buy a piece of property because it may well get taken away.
So many cannot see past the end of their own noses.
So I see the potential in our country’s near(20 years) future for a significant leo citizen conflict. I worry that laws will be passed that make common people criminals... such as ordering firearm registration or be considered a criminal... etc Then leo s will be asked to go to otherwise common, law abiding, tax paying citizens homes to detain or confiscate.
My hope is that those wearing badges and firearms spend a significant amount of time contemplating whether they will do their job or quit their job when orders like this come across their radio or desk.
Do you believe Young officers consider such things?
I think that some people misdirect their anger with the laws they don't agree with and take it out on the "Goons" and Jack Booted Thugs.... And expect those in Law Enforcement to refuse to enforce any and every law or order that they deem to be unconstitutional or improper.....
That is why I asked Spike Bull if he has ever been in the military..... Ask JTV if he ever told his Gunny Sgt. That he will be refusing to follow that order because he thinks it's illegal....
Look.... I have stated that I believe the residents of Michigan have a Constitutional right to carry a concealed pistol without having to obtain a CPL. But it is my job to arrest a person that I come into contact with a concealed pistol without a CPL....
I believe that it should be legal for citizens to have marijuana... but if I come in contact with someone in possession of it without a medical marijuana card, it is my job to arrest them.....
My point is that if you want a law changed.... lobby to change it........ But don't expect Law Enforcement Officers to quit their job for Enforcement of a law you don't agree with.......
The Goon Jack Booted Thugs comments are the same crap that Obama was saying which only drives a wedge between Law Enforcement and citizens... You like President Trump don't you Spike ?? Have you ever ONCE heard him refer to anyone in Law Enforcement as a GOON or a JACKBOOTED THUG..... or show any disrespect towards them and the military ??
I think that's a little different than refusing to comply with a lawful regulation.
God bless, Steve