Summit Treestands
Bundy case dissmissed
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Contributors to this thread:
slade 08-Jan-18
Pig Doc 08-Jan-18
K Cummings 08-Jan-18
DL 08-Jan-18
DL 08-Jan-18
Beendare 08-Jan-18
DL 08-Jan-18
sleepyhunter 08-Jan-18
DL 08-Jan-18
Sixby 08-Jan-18
Spike Bull 08-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 08-Jan-18
bad karma 08-Jan-18
Pig Doc 08-Jan-18
slade 08-Jan-18
kentuckbowhnter 08-Jan-18
HDE 08-Jan-18
sleepyhunter 08-Jan-18
Pig Doc 08-Jan-18
Spike Bull 08-Jan-18
slade 08-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 08-Jan-18
DL 08-Jan-18
HDE 08-Jan-18
Coyote 65 08-Jan-18
Annony Mouse 08-Jan-18
bad karma 08-Jan-18
slade 08-Jan-18
Sixby 08-Jan-18
TD 08-Jan-18
slade 08-Jan-18
bad karma 08-Jan-18
JL 08-Jan-18
Beendare 09-Jan-18
'Ike' (Phone) 09-Jan-18
Glunt@work 09-Jan-18
brunse 09-Jan-18
AZOnecam 09-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 09-Jan-18
Pig Doc 09-Jan-18
HDE 09-Jan-18
slade 09-Jan-18
AZOnecam 09-Jan-18
Pig Doc 09-Jan-18
slade 09-Jan-18
HDE 09-Jan-18
bowbender77 09-Jan-18
sleepyhunter 09-Jan-18
TD 09-Jan-18
Glunt@work 09-Jan-18
slade 09-Jan-18
bad karma 09-Jan-18
K Cummings 09-Jan-18
Sixby 09-Jan-18
JL 09-Jan-18
bad karma 09-Jan-18
Spike Bull 09-Jan-18
HDE 09-Jan-18
HDE 09-Jan-18
Rhody 09-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 09-Jan-18
Glunt@work 09-Jan-18
HDE 09-Jan-18
K Cummings 09-Jan-18
JL 09-Jan-18
Grey Ghost 09-Jan-18
HDE 09-Jan-18
sleepyhunter 09-Jan-18
K Cummings 09-Jan-18
Coyote 65 09-Jan-18
sleepyhunter 09-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 09-Jan-18
slade 09-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 09-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 09-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 09-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 09-Jan-18
slade 09-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 09-Jan-18
slade 09-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 09-Jan-18
slade 10-Jan-18
slade 10-Jan-18
Grey Ghost 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 10-Jan-18
slade 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 10-Jan-18
Grey Ghost 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 10-Jan-18
bad karma 10-Jan-18
HDE 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 10-Jan-18
HDE 10-Jan-18
Spike Bull 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 10-Jan-18
slade 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 10-Jan-18
Pig Doc 10-Jan-18
muskeg 10-Jan-18
Sixby 10-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 10-Jan-18
Sixby 10-Jan-18
K Cummings 10-Jan-18
WV Mountaineer 10-Jan-18
KsRancher 10-Jan-18
K Cummings 10-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 11-Jan-18
TD 11-Jan-18
HDE 11-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 11-Jan-18
HDE 11-Jan-18
muskeg 11-Jan-18
Spike Bull 11-Jan-18
brunse 11-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 11-Jan-18
Sixby 11-Jan-18
BIG BEAR 11-Jan-18
K Cummings 11-Jan-18
HDE 11-Jan-18
Glunt@work 11-Jan-18
Sixby 11-Jan-18
HDE 11-Jan-18
From: slade
08-Jan-18
Another blow to the Pontificating Critical Thought Police...

BREAKING: Charges Against Rancher Cliven Bundy and 3 Others Dismissed – Judge Cites “Flagrant Prosecutorial Misconduct”

From: Pig Doc
08-Jan-18
A criminal walks free. Not sure why that is reason to spout off but I guess low IQ, redneck right wingers get off on that kind of stuff.

From: K Cummings
08-Jan-18
forumtrack>>3886.011

From: DL
08-Jan-18

From: DL
08-Jan-18
The four defendants were charged with threatening a federal officer, carrying and using a firearm and engaging in conspiracy -- felony counts that could send them to prison for decades. They violated the Brady Rule according to the judge. They were withholding evidence beneficial to the Bundy’s case. I haven’t followed this case much at all. Never could trust what was true and what was made up. If they did everything that people said they did why were these the only charges?

From: Beendare
08-Jan-18
IMO, the prosecutorial misconduct thing is a big deal.

To the guys saying, "Criminal went free" did they really? You are hearing the gov portrayal from guys CONVICTED of misconduct. When the full force of gov is to to get you....its a bad deal.

Now no doubt the Bundys aren't squeaky clean on this but they were dealing with BLM folks that were dirty, dirty, dirty. Factor that in.....

From: DL
08-Jan-18
What we know and what the truth actually is are far apart. A Nevada judge dismissed the case with Predjudice. Do many of you remember the federal case against the Bighorn sheep guide? Feds overstepping their boundaries and the citizens slapped them by a not guilty verdict. Recently there was a documentary on Waco and what happened there. Total misuse of power.

From: sleepyhunter
08-Jan-18
Slade excellent thread. Thanks. Im glad Bundy didnt get shot in the back like they did Finicum. Also that is some kind of wonderful bait you used to catch a psycotic mentally unstable fish, then catch a nasty bottom waste eating dweller fish on the next cast. Well done.

From: DL
08-Jan-18
. “I can't believe they would waste their time and tax payer money on this but hey, they're the feds and known to do stupid chit”.

They do it because it’s not their money they waste. I would gurentee you if federal prosecutors were docked pay for every case they didn’t win there would be a fraction of federally prosecuted cases.

From: Sixby
08-Jan-18
Justice comes from strange directions. California?????/ Almost makes the story too hard to believe. But we'll take it.

God bless, Steve

08-Jan-18
Excellent outcome!

Glad to see the jackbooted thugs get slapped!

From: BIG BEAR
08-Jan-18
The same Jack Booted Thugs that some here want to start locking up people in Colorado for marijuana ??

From: bad karma
08-Jan-18
It seems, though, from the article that the court was upset with the prosecutors, not the BLM.

From: Pig Doc
08-Jan-18
Clive Bundy is a welfare cheat, grazing his cattle on BLM land illegally for 20 years. If he was black and from Detroit the same dopes here cheering him on would want him lynched, but since he is white and wears a hat he is some kind of folk hero.

The government prosecutors on the case messed up big time but that does not excuse the fact that Bundy is a criminal that now walks free.

From: slade
08-Jan-18
Guilty until proven innocent, not surprised coming from a know it all back slapping grand stander.

08-Jan-18
Bundy is a scumbag, if one of his cows sets hoof on blm illegally again they should immediately be shot on site.

From: HDE
08-Jan-18
What do we know: Bundy was/is delinquent on grazing fees.

Then from there it turns into a he said - she said thing.

From: sleepyhunter
08-Jan-18
."" If he was black and from Detroit the same dopes here cheering him on would want him lynched, but since he is white and wears a hat he is some kind of folk hero.""

Says the dope who is a low IQ racist.

From: Pig Doc
08-Jan-18
Bundy owes the US over $1M in grazing fees. This is a fact.

Had a black man bilked the US government out of $1M and then staged an armed takeover of federal property slade, sleepy and Spike would have been calling for the National Guard. I guess we should expect right wing nut jobs to stick up for their own kind.

08-Jan-18
I didn't say all are jackbooted thugs, BIG BEAR. Somebody has to actually act like jackbooted thugs before I would call them that.

From: slade
08-Jan-18
Pigbreath stoops to a new low like a good leftist lemming and uses the unfounded race card... What a weak pathetic back slapping blowhard.

From: BIG BEAR
08-Jan-18
Spike.... What do you do for a living ?? I think it's only fair for me to take a few pot shots at your profession.......

Pretty much every thread that comes along here where the words Jackbooted Thug appear were either started by you or heavily involves you....

From: DL
08-Jan-18

DL's Link
This case is confusing for sure. I don’t know how anyone can make heads or tales of it. I heard today that a whistle blower was going to come forth to report on what the BLM has done in this case and other cases. This person claimed to have worked for them and personally witnessed the dirty illegal tactics they use. More fake news?

From: HDE
08-Jan-18
Some guys just flat out don't belong in law enforcement and others are your best next door neighbor.

"Had a black man...staged an armed takeover of federal property..." happened in NM in TA back in 1967. Except those weren't black, but Hispanic. National guard could've easily been used but it was too remote. Two sheriff deputies were shot in a standoff, one died later on. I work with his son.

No right wing nut job(s). Anything like this, regardless of ancestry, should be treated the same. I hardly believe the Bundy case was such at first. May have been perceived to be later on. More of being made and example of and bad blood from the past two decades and a "vendetta" to be reconciled. Shortly after, the BLM manager for that district was transferred to our local district office.

No wager this time - the federal gov't wasted more in pursuing this than the $1MM owed in grazing fees...

From: Coyote 65
08-Jan-18
Let me tell you my experience with Federal Officials. Way back when in a land far away. Actually basically my back yard.

I wanted to cut some alligator Juniper for fence posts. Had done this in the past. So I went to the local FS office and asked for a permit. The lady in the office says, they are doing a juniper thinning in Young (about 20 miles from my house as the crow flies). If you go this week you can go through the piles and pick out the ones you want just use this fire wood permit and is cheaper than the post permit.

So I go to Young, fill up the back of back of truck with 10 footers and head back. For those that don't know AZ, Young is at the foot of the Mogollon Rim. The Mogollon Rim is a topographical and geological feature cutting across the U.S. state of Arizona. It extends approximately 200 miles, starting in northern Yavapai County and running eastward, ending near the border with New Mexico. There are 3 ways to get to Young, through Globe, a 120 mile round trip from my house. The Chamberlain trail, about 20 miles, but a 90 minute drive (Rough Road). Or on top of the rim with 25 miles of good dirt road then highway 260 back down the rim and then a FS road to my place.

I chose the over the top and then back down route as I had use my spare when I ran a tree root through a sidewall. As I turned off the highway and onto the FS road that leads to my house. The road is blocked by a FS truck. I stopped, the jolly green giant comes walking over to my truck. He has his hand on a glock. I roll the window down shut off the engine. "Keep your hands on the wheel, don't move" he walks back to his truck, gets on the radio. Soon I am surrounded by green FS trucks. There is one guy standing at the right rear of my truck his hand on his gun.

The giant walks back to the truck and starts his interrogation.

"Where did you get the logs". Young. I have a permit it's on the dash. "Don't move, hands on the steering wheel". The guy at the back of the truck moves up opens the passenger door and takes the permit. He and the giant walk back to his truck and lay the documents on the hood. They looked at the permit, the map the clerk gave me. They walked back to the back of the truck. Looked at the juniper posts, looked at the permit. Walked back to the cab, "where did you get the permit"? I am scared by this point, there are 3 guys with guns, they are not being real friendly bordering on abusive. Having been in the military I know you don't argue with a guy with a gun and it's yes sir and no sir. So I replied the Payson office of Tonto National Forest. He walks back to his truck and gets on the radio. 30 minute later he comes back, asks for my ID, I asked may I take my hands off the wheel, or do you just want me to shift so you can get my wallet. He told me to take my hands off the wheel and hand him my ID. So I gave him my military id, driver license. Takes them back to the truck, talks on the radio for about 15 minutes. Comes back hands me the id, and says you can go, I asked for my permit. He walks back to his truck comes back with the permit. I will never forget his parting remarks. "In the future be more careful". I didn't respond, Just waited until they left then put my stuff away and drove home all he while just waiting for them to return. No explanation why they stopped me, no apology for being AH's and all the intimidation.

So if someone says something to me about abusive government officials, I can relate.

Terry

From: Annony Mouse
08-Jan-18

Annony Mouse's Link
Tangentially related to Terry's tale...

From: bad karma
08-Jan-18
The BLM folks that I know who went to the Bundy scene are honest and decent people. As is Big Bear. As the Court complained about the DOJ attorneys prosecuting the case, I think the jack booted thug comment is out of line.

From: slade
08-Jan-18
Navarro on Dec. 20 cited six pieces of evidence the Nevada U.S. Attorney’s Office failed to disclose that was favorable to the defense and could have changed the outcome of the trial.

The evidence included:

Records about surveillance at the Bundy ranch;

Maps about government surveillance;

Records about the presence of government snipers;

FBI logs about activity at the ranch in the days leading up to standoff;

Law-enforcement assessments dating to 2012 that found the Bundys posed no threat;

Internal affairs reports about misconduct by Bureau of Land Management agents.

“Failure to turn over such evidence violates due process,” Navarro said last month. “A fair trial at this point is impossible.”

From: Sixby
08-Jan-18
I have been hoping Trump would hear about this travesty and put a bug in Sessions ear to get it stopped. This is absolutely nothing less than persecution, not prosecution and charging these fine people is the Obama KIng stealing land for his liberal base. My son was living in Burns when this went down and personally knows all these people and they are literally the salt of the earth. No finer people , and to think of what they are going through because of these false charges is just infuriating. What really bothers me is that so many are willing to condemn these people when they know absolutely nothing about them or this situation at all. You should be ashamed of yourselves. God bless, Steve

From: TD
08-Jan-18
Attorneys don't wear jackboots? =D

From: slade
08-Jan-18
""Attorneys don't wear jackboots?""

No, but "Internal affairs reports about misconduct by Bureau of Land Management agents" might.

From: bad karma
08-Jan-18
I have practiced law for 23 years. Ethics are simple. If you have doubt, stand on the safe side of the line. Same for prosecutors. I have no sympathy for them.

From: JL
08-Jan-18
Harry Reid is crying somewhere.....

From: Beendare
09-Jan-18
Pig doc, "Bundy owes the US over $1M in grazing fees. This is a fact."

Is it? The BLM guy handling all of this was run out on corruption charges. Is he the same guy controlling the grazing contracts?

You might be right Pig Doc...... but It sure seems to me this whole thing started many years before and it wasn't all Bundy's.

09-Jan-18
Let the law suits begin....

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-18
I don't agree with the Bundy's approach, but its not as simple as unpaid fees and trespassing cattle.

Thats like saying its as simple as Las Vegas needing to grow and destroy desert tortoise habitat so they made a deal with the BLM/USFW to allow them to continue to develop and they would work together to kick ranchers off grazing on 400,000 acres to offset the permanent loss of habitat happening around Las Vegas.

From: brunse
09-Jan-18
Terry,

Any chance you got the name of the officer?

BB,

In your experience, are officers obligated or otherwise expected to introduce themselves by name? Are there good reasons not to introduce themselves by name? Do many rake offense when asked their name as they depart?

Spike,

What is a jackboot?

From: AZOnecam
09-Jan-18
Hey Terry, we're neighbors. I'm just up the road in Lakeside.

From: BIG BEAR
09-Jan-18
I can't speak for the Feds ..... Forest Service guys........ But our uniform Police have name tags..... and are expected to provide our name and badge number to citizens that request it.......

I wouldn't expect that Forest Service guys have a whole lot of experience in traffic stops and citizen contacts.... And if that guy deals with people like that he's bound to get citizen complaints....... After having to deal with a few citizen complaints he'll probably change the way he talks to people......

It sounds like someone called the Forest Service and thought Terry was stealing the wood.... because the forest service guys were down the road waiting for him. If that is the case it would have been in the Officers best interest to explain to Terry that they were responding to a phoned in complaint.... and treat Terry with a little more respect..... Where I work.... half or more of the phoned in complaints turn out to be a big nothing......

From: Pig Doc
09-Jan-18
Beendare, since when can you graze cattle on federal land for nothing? Bundy grazed his cattle on federal land for 20 years and paid zero grazing fees. Apparently some guys here are just fine with that since he is a white guy with a hat.

From: HDE
09-Jan-18
What happens when it's a brown guy with a hat? Crucifixion?

The real story is between Bundy's version and the BLM's (not black lives matter).

From: slade
09-Jan-18
HDE,

Pigsbreath like all progressive weenies uses the race card, it's all they have. That and keyboard threats of violence.

From: AZOnecam
09-Jan-18
Pig Doc, you are the only one who is trying to make this a racial thing. I, for one think he should have been paying grazing fees and the whole state vs. fed jurisdiction muddies the waters. Sending out snipers and heavily armed federal agents to enforce grazing permits was bound to escalate. I'm surprised he got off, but the only reason I'm glad for it is that the feds were clearly playing dirty pool and the judge called them on it.

Terry - I'm sure you've seen the amount of wood poaching going on lately. Hard to find any legal wood from Heber to Young, yet somehow there are guys with truck-loads for sale by the road daily. That certainly doesn't excuse the way you were treated, but I'm glad to see FS at least trying to enforce the woodcutting areas around the edges of the Reservation there.

From: Pig Doc
09-Jan-18
I would hope that the white guy in the hat would be treated the same as a person of any color. The only reason I brought up race is that our resident right wing rednecks are cheering for the white criminal and they would not be cheering if Bundy was black. They would be asking for his head.

No, the real story is that the feds screwed up the entire case and Bundy got off scott free for 20 years of not paying grazing fees and staging an illegal armed occupation of a federal wildlife refuge. Some fools here don't even think he broke the law. I own land adjacent to a federal wildlife refuge in MN. If I showed up on that property with a loaded gun I would be immediately, and rightfully arrested.

We have a cheat and criminal walk free due to failure of the government to prosecute the case properly. We should all be appalled - at Bundy and the feds. Instead we have dopes chearleading the whole fiasco.

From: slade
09-Jan-18

From: HDE
09-Jan-18
Some are cheering his free walk and some aren't. Like it or not, there are always two sides of the story and the truth is always in the middle, all the time, everytime.

Since when does the federal gov't always tell the truth? Evidence shows they didn't this time and the case was dismissed (aka they screwed up the entire case). Think they are telling the whole story on the past 20 years? Or Bundy for that matter? They are telling their versions of it.

What some are cheering is that the BLM flexed muscle they shouldn't have (or didn't need to) and it backfired on them. They failed to take the high road and be the professionals in the matter and stooped to Bundy's level. An armed BLM SWAT Team was hardly warrented.

obama's 8 yrs in office didn't help the matter either...

From: bowbender77
09-Jan-18
What HDE said x2.

From: sleepyhunter
09-Jan-18
""The only reason I brought up race is that our resident right wing rednecks are cheering for the white criminal and they would not be cheering if Bundy was black. ""

You're assuming a lot with that statement Dr Evil. Its clear you're the racist. Take your meds, then get some quiet time.

From: TD
09-Jan-18
Ever owed the government anything? Like the IRS? Many if not most times the fines, interest, fees, etc. quickly become more than what was owed in the first place. When the feds throw around that 1M number that includes everything they can tack on but the kitchen sink.

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-18
On my list of things that I see as a serious threat, the government playing dirty when prosecuting citizens ranks a lot higher than illegal grazing.

From: slade
09-Jan-18
Maybe so Glunt, but then you are not a hate filled race baiting progressive.

From: bad karma
09-Jan-18
Dismissing a high profile case like this one sends a message to prosecutors. And it's a good one. I'm okay with this result, given that they withheld over 3300 pages of potentially exculpatory evidence.

From: K Cummings
09-Jan-18
Pig Doc:

Be very careful when you attempt to use any sort of analogy here. Most people understand them for what they are, however some...and it seems to be the same few every time...simply aren't capable of grasping the correlation.

KPC

From: Sixby
09-Jan-18
Analogy????? How convenient for such a mean spirited , hateful rant from Pig Doc. You really dig deep and hard to see a simple analogy in his diatribe. Why? Is this an excuse for a racist commentary? That was not an analogy but a blatent attempt to inject a racist excuse for a lawful and just judicial slapdown of an out of control prosecution by a governmental police force that not only cooked the books but literally fined a poor , hard working American farmer and his family out of existence and that so unjustly prosecuted them that they went to the point of imprisonment and murder in doing so. So much for your self vaunted critical thinking. You may now remove the thinking part from your title and just admit that you are simply critical.

God bless, Steve

From: JL
09-Jan-18
A few thoughts someone may know. I read Bundy claimed ancestral or grandfathered rights. Did he have a legit claim? If he was native, would his case be seen differently?

It seems to me as a casual observer.....if the Feds had a solid case against him, why did they "hide" some of the evidence from the defense and court? I would speculate if this was an open and shut case....there was no need for the prosecution to hide anything.

From: bad karma
09-Jan-18
Giving all of the evidence to the defense is prosecutorial ethics 100 stuff. I won't speculate why they did it, because I don't know the strength or weakness of their case. But there is never an excuse for this. Yes, sometimes, they'll inadvertently omit something, but 3000 pages plus? This is an egregious case of prosecutorial misconduct.

09-Jan-18
I took a shot at your profession, BIG BEAR?

Are you just another over reaching government goon? Or are you a decent police officer doing the best he can?

Everything one says about every and any member of law enforcement isn't neccesary about you or even about police in general!

Get over yourself. I know that police are feeling kinda persecuted right now, mostly for good reason as some people are treating police badly. However, everyone recognizes that there are a small percentage of criminal types in every profession.

Don't take all criticisms of law enforcement personally, ever.

From: HDE
09-Jan-18
^^^ yep. Edit: yep to JL's post above. Not this one.

The analogy used, quite frankly, has nothing to do with any of the 'why' the case was dismissed. The real point to all of this is the federal gov't (BLM in this case) isn't the badass they think they are when it comes to the judicial branch. I have seen game wardens lose cases because they jumped the gun, so to speak, on situations they did not do their due diligence on.

From: HDE
09-Jan-18
To interject any form of ethnicity into this debate is pretty shallow and empty...

From: Rhody
09-Jan-18
IIRC, Bundy was paying the state for grazing rights. Then the feds/BLM became the governing entity. Bundy had tried to pay the state as was before. State said no longer in charge.

It's at this point that things get fuzzy. My question at this point, did the BLM try to open a contract with Bundy so he could continue unmolested? Or did they say... you're gone, based upon some eco/political-economics that is PC... turtle or something?

From: BIG BEAR
09-Jan-18
Spike.... you didn't answer my question.... what is your profession ?? Are you going to make me guess ??

Excuse me for defending Law Enforcement Officers on Law Enforcement Appreciation Day........

From: Glunt@work
09-Jan-18
To clarify, this trial was for charges related to the standoff when the BLM rounded up his cattle. It wasn't a trial to decide the grazing fee issue.

From: HDE
09-Jan-18
Where was the County Sheriff in all this...?

From: K Cummings
09-Jan-18
"Analogy????? How convenient for such a mean spirited , hateful rant from Pig Doc. You really dig deep and hard to see a simple analogy in his diatribe. Why? Is this an excuse for a racist commentary? That was not an analogy but a blatent attempt to inject a racist excuse for a lawful and just judicial slapdown of an out of control prosecution..."

Like I said, apparently you missed the analogy. Pig Doc made no racist rant or diatribe.

He simply stated that the same people who dismiss one person for cheating the government would be all over another for doing the same thing.

"Clive Bundy is a welfare cheat, grazing his cattle on BLM land illegally for 20 years. If he was black and from Detroit the same dopes here cheering him on would want him lynched, but since he is white and wears a hat he is some kind of folk hero.

Whether or not the prosecution was handled right has no bearing on the validity of the analogy. If a food stamp cheat from the hood was set free because of a botched prosecution, there would indeed be a certain group of people here that would be screaming "WHERE'S THE JUSTICE? IF THAT GUY WAS WHITE HE WOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN OFF!!"

Like the analogy or not, it's quite accurate.

KPC

From: JL
09-Jan-18
Rhody, I read last night Harry Reid and/or his kid may have some level of involvement in this.

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-18

Grey Ghost's Link
I guess when the federal government owns and manages 87% of the land in your state, these disputes are bound to happen.

It started with the Feds establishing a new conservation plan for the land in order to protect the desert tortoise in 1993. Part of the plan was to stop grazing the land, and buy back the grazing privileges from ranchers, and limit off-road vehicle activity. Bundy refused to sell his grazing privileges and refused to remove his cattle.

Bundy refused to acknowledge the feds control over the land, claiming his Mormon ancestors used the land before the Feds took control of it. He continued to graze the land without paying any grazing fees. He then ignored a federal judge's order for him to remove his cows in 1998.

Bundy continued to illegally graze 322,000 acres of BLM land, while forming a local militia of ranchers and others with similar interests, who were willing to fight the Feds. The $1million the Feds claimed he owed was a combination of grazing fees and fines. Bundy claimed he only owed $300,000 in fees.

In 2014, the Feds began rounding up hundreds of Bundy's illegally grazing cattle. They abandoned those efforts when several skirmishes with Bundy's family and his organized militia got dangerous.

In 2016, Bundy's son, and a group of supporters formed a armed occupation of a wildlife refuge building in Oregon to further protest what they felt was federal overreach.

And that brings us to the recent court decision, in which the Federal prosecutors botched.

Matt

From: HDE
09-Jan-18
"He simply stated that the same people who dismiss one person for cheating the government would be all over another for doing the same thing."

Kind of like how people are lit up when a poacher is caught - often times they are a white guy not only wearing a hat but sporting a beard, the epitome of the "evil white male".

Whether Bundy is right or wrong, the point is people were pissed about the muscle flex of a bureaucracy and the negative light it sheds. That is the only perception that matters...

From: sleepyhunter
09-Jan-18
""Like I said, apparently you missed the analogy. Pig Doc made no racist rant or diatribe.""

Then your as ignorant as Dr Evil.

From: K Cummings
09-Jan-18
Sleepy calling anyone ignorant. Isn’t that rich?

KPC

From: Coyote 65
09-Jan-18
brunse, no I did not get his name, he had no name tag, and I don't recall if there was a forest service logo on his uniform. The truck had FS on the door. After the way this was handled, I was not going to ask for a name. I was expecting handcuffs, if it had come to that I was going to ask for a lawyer and not give them any more info except name rank and serial number.

Terry

From: sleepyhunter
09-Jan-18
""Sleepy calling anyone ignorant. Isn’t that rich?""

Evidently it's bothering you Maxine. It always has.

09-Jan-18
Bundy stopped paying grazing fees in 1993 after being told that his family's homestead, which originated in 1877, wasn't as important as a desert tortoise thought to be threatened. Maybe he should have handled it differently but, who are we to say so?

I'm so tired of hearing how bad this family is. I wander how you people would handle being forced out of your way of life? Told you don't matter based on outside eco-driven interests. One thing we must not ever forget is a community composed of mostly government owned or public land has few options for making a living. Driving them out because the Las Vegas eco crowd thinks a turtle might be in trouble really doesn't factor in me. Like Glunt said, they don't seem to mind when Vegas takes more ground for its development. There are ulterior motives here. And, the Bundy's were simply one of the few that decided they needed a little more consideration than a Turtle.

From: slade
09-Jan-18

slade's Link
WV Mountanieer,

Facts, my critical pontificating groupie and the bow libs don't need no stickin facts to bloviate.

But who knows, my Pontificating Critical Groupie will claim this is another alt right conspiracy fake news site.

From: BIG BEAR
09-Jan-18
So do we have the right to do anything we want on public land ?? If so,, I think I'll go cut enough trees to make a log cabin for myself....

09-Jan-18
Absolutely slade. I don't blame Bundy one bit. I understand why he did it and would do the same. It has become a forgotten piece of evidence that the fed's didn't want his grazing fee's. It's become forgotten that Bundy's ancestor settled in 1877 and, then eventually started buying grazing rights to this area. It's totally become lost that the fed's were purposely trying to put him and many others out of the cattle business. For a deal they made with Clark County? Then people call him a cheat, a thief, a low life welfare case? I find that to be an ignorant response.

09-Jan-18
BB, you are better than that last post.

09-Jan-18
The endangered species act is a weapon. A political tool. And, this is a great example of the deals liberal policy makers and employees make using the dang thing.

From: slade
09-Jan-18
This is known as a Harry Reid screw the rancher special.

From: BIG BEAR
09-Jan-18
I don't know a thing about free grazing....

DL mentioned that the Feds overstepped their authority in Waco and misused their authority.......

There were mistakes made in Waco. But that doesn't negate the fact that David Koresh was breaking the law having sex with 11 and 12 year old girls......

From: slade
09-Jan-18
So that makes it OK for Reno's storm troopers to burn women and children to death?

From: BIG BEAR
09-Jan-18
Did the storm troopers burn them or did David Koresh start the fires and fuel them with hay ???

From: slade
10-Jan-18

From: slade
10-Jan-18

From: Grey Ghost
10-Jan-18
"Bundy stopped paying grazing fees in 1993 after being told that his family's homestead, which originated in 1877, wasn't as important as a desert tortoise thought to be threatened. "

The only problem with that is the Feds weren't trying to dictate anything on Bundy's deeded homestead. It was the thousands of acres of BLM adjacent to Bundy's homestead that the conservation plan was aimed at.

I have mixed opinions on this one. While I admire Bundy and his family's willingness to stand up and fight the Feds, I think his Morman ancestry justification is weak. Who cares who *used* the land before the Feds took control over it. I'm pretty sure there were Native American Indians who *used* that land too. Do they have the right to continue to use it as they please?

I've also met several ranchers who treat the BLM land they graze as their own property. They limit access to other rightful users with fences and locked gates. They profit from outfitting or trespassing fees from hunters, etc.... It's a problem.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
10-Jan-18
There was also a documentary on ABC recently 25 years after WACO.....

Koresh was a total nut job. He physically and sexually assaulted 11 and 12 year old girls. He preached that the government was going to attack and he turned his followers into a militia.....

Search warrants are executed in America each and every day.... 99.9 % of them are without incident and without shots being fired...And then the arrested party has his day in court...... But Koresh prepared his followers for the big shootout and knew the raid was coming.....

He was holed up in that complex for over a month after the initial raid where 4 ATF Agents (Stormtroopers) and 6 Davidians were killed. He should have sent ALL of the women and children out of the complex in that time.... The only children he sent out were children that were not his... The rest he kept there to die with him..... And the fire didn't kill Koresh..... it was a gunshot to the head... suicide......

It was a tragic event that occurred at WACO..... but one man could have prevented ALL of it..... But that man was a Psycho who thought he was God.... and thought he had the right to have sex with all of his female followers from age 11 and up.....While the male Dividians were to remain celebite...... and brainwashed all of his followers to believe that they must get into a deadly confrontation with the government.......

From: BIG BEAR
10-Jan-18
Let's see...... In 1987..... Koresh got into a gunfight with George Roden.... over leadership of Mount Carmel...... Roden was shot but survived...... Koresh was having sex with Rodens elderly mother who was in control of Mount Carmel. Roden filed a lawsuit in Federal Court that said that Koresh raped his mother and brainwashed her.....

Koresh was charged with attempted murder..... but the trial ended in a mistrial......

Later ....... Roden killed another man with an axe..... Which allowed Koresh to slide into the leadership role when Roden went to a mental hospital after being found not guilty on account of insanity ......

The only thing nuttier than those 2 wack jobs were the people who followed them and believed Koresh when he told them he was God......

From: slade
10-Jan-18
Great posts, GJ would b proud of your spin/twist/deflect abilities, but it does not change the facts. The FBI/ATF lied and Women and Children died and just like the Bundy case they lost, buried and lied about the evidence and what happened.

From: BIG BEAR
10-Jan-18
And 900 died in Jonestown including infants and elderly..... a mass suicide from following some nut job and his cult.... Drink the Kool Aid......

From: Grey Ghost
10-Jan-18
This case strikes a nerve in me.

I grew up hunting BLM that was landlocked by private ranches. Our access was by virtue of my Father’s friendship with the one of the ranchers. When that rancher passed control of the ranch to his son, our hunting dynamics changed. His son began charging a access fee that was greater than the $250 that he could legally charge. Then, he and the neighboring ranchers started dictating where we could hunt on the BLM land. They locked gates on the BLM to control where we could travel by vehicle, often saving the best hunting ground for themselves, or for illegal outfitting.

When we objected to these illegal constraints, the son simply denied us access. Over 50 years of great hunting on public land suddenly and sadly ended, as did the relationship between our families. It’s been one of the biggest disappointments in my life, and it was directly attributable to greed and the commercialization of public land.

IMO, there should be no such thing as “landlocked” public ground where adjacent landowners can control access. In those cases, I believe public access easements should be established. Unfortunately, proposals to that extent are fought mightily by ranchers, like Bundy, who feel their grazing rights entitle them to control all activities on the public land.

Matt

From: BIG BEAR
10-Jan-18
So if the Court was upset with the Prosecutors in this case and not the BLM as Karma pointed out,,,,, Then who were the Jackbooted Thugs that got slapped ?

From: bad karma
10-Jan-18
It's possible that the BLM didn't give the information to the prosecutors, and they are just taking the heat for the BLM actions. But the court singled out the prosecutors, not BLM, in the order. That's all we have to go on.

From: HDE
10-Jan-18
"I'm pretty sure there were Native American Indians who *used* that land too. Do they have the right to continue to use it as they please?"

Yep - and they get a monument out of it sometimes as well...

From: BIG BEAR
10-Jan-18
There's a thread over on the Bowsite worth reading about the Prosecution of Alaska Guide Tom Shankster (He's from Colorado).....

It seems a handful of people on the Bowsite feel that the Alaska Wildlife Officers spent way too much time and effort and money to investigate Shanksters crimes.....

Then there's the guys who had dealings with Shankster and feel that he got what he had coming to him......

From: HDE
10-Jan-18
But, does he wear a hat? Makes a big difference you know...

10-Jan-18
Koresh was complete scum and they could have arrested many times as he went shopping and even jogging by himself regularly in the run up to the government over reach which killed all those people.

Janet Reno and company are as bad.

The goons involved in these debacles are equally useless. I will not excuse them due to a job title.

Government enforcers need to question their orders. Soldiers are required to refuse illegal orders and can be prosecuted for executing them, why not enforcers?

From: BIG BEAR
10-Jan-18
Were you ever a soldier Spike Bull ??

From: slade
10-Jan-18
The judge clearly stated ""Internal affairs reports about misconduct by Bureau of Land Management agents.""

From: BIG BEAR
10-Jan-18
What did they do ? Shoot his cows ?

From: Pig Doc
10-Jan-18
Bundy cattle are still grazing federal lands illegally. Will be interesting to see what happens now that the case has been dismissed. Hopefully the BLM will round them up but with a nut case like Bundy involved that's risky business.

From: muskeg
10-Jan-18
How long have they been in jail ... like a year & a half ... pretty good slap on the wrist and show of what will happen if you step out of line. Something tells me this ain't over yet. The Bundy gang, including the 'stolen valor' & fake militia men now have a target on their backs. "What a field-day for the heat A thousand people in the street Singing songs and carrying signs Mostly say, hooray for our side It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid You step out of line, the man come and take you away" ..... play stupid games win stupid prizes !!!!

From: Sixby
10-Jan-18
The Bowsite is as split as the nation. 50 percent believe in America and the rule of law being justly applied and equally applied and the other 50 percent approve of anything a uniform does. During the Revolutionary war there were factions that said give me liberty or give me death. They were the winners. What we have now is so similar . We have now is far more divided. This is cause for concern , but I have faith in those that believe in God and in America . Those that believe in the Bible and the constitution. I do not give place to those that break the law , neither do I give place to those that abuse authority. I honestly do not know everything about the Bundy case but I do know about the case concerning the Hammond family. There are some similaritys but in the Hammond case I am 100% certain that they did not break one single law. They got permission to backfire an out of control BLM burn and did so. They did nothing at all to deserve a fine, much less jail time or continual persecution and imprisonment. In this case they are being tied in with Bundy when they were not even wanting Bundy to come. They are being unjustly imprisoned and unjustly persecuted and it is just wrong, wrong , wrong. They played no stupid games and have in every sense been obediant to the unjust law but to no effect and as Donald Trump would say if he knew about this ,. That is just sadddddddddddddddd!!!!

God bless, Steve

10-Jan-18
"The only problem with that is the Feds weren't trying to dictate anything on Bundy's deeded homestead. It was the thousands of acres of BLM adjacent to Bundy's homestead that the conservation plan was aimed at."

Matt, what I said was just fine. I have zero problems with him doing what he did. He was given no choice, I find it hard to believe that anyone would be torn with how they feel on this. This land is so poor he has to have it in order to ranch at the capacity needed to survive. I also have zero problems with his cattle on that land as of now. The case hasn't been resolved. Remember? Beside's, I don't really see where he has had a choice if he intended to farm but, to let the cattle graze.

Remember, the BLM didn't want his fee's. Said he could no longer buy the lease. The media likes to make it out as if he is stealing something. I don't see it that way. I see him doing what his ancestor's had done when settling his land, then being told he couldn't do that anymore because the far away environmentalists and the Government decided they'd just push him out. This was all part of a bigger agenda to make everyone happy except the Bundy's and, the locals of this area. It reeks of corruption, collusion, and special interest management of public used land.

He could have done things a bit differently to help himself. He's turned a lot of people against him based on his stance of government owned land. But, he hasn't got a fair shake from anyone on this. So, I can sure understand why he feels the way he does.

If there is any justice in this country, the government people responsible for selling this family and 50 others out, should be tried, convicted, and suffer the same fate this family has had to endure. That's what I want to see. I want to see the money trail that bought "development rights" in the same kind of tortoise habitat that cows grazing was deemed harmful too. I think every single American deserves to see how this went down. So, we can expose some of the People and political tools being used to rob us all of our freedoms.

From: Sixby
10-Jan-18
Ditto to WV!!!!!!!

God bless, Steve

From: K Cummings
10-Jan-18
"I have zero problems with him doing what he did. He was given no choice, I find it hard to believe that anyone would be torn with how they feel on this. This land is so poor he has to have it in order to ranch at the capacity needed to survive."

Just a thought.

Let's assume I am a logger, and I come from multiple generations of loggers. For whatever reason, the timber on the land I own is no longer enough for me to survive as a logger. Would it be ok for me to log off the federal land that borders my own in order for me to survive?

Or how about this. Let's say I am a financial advisor and I come from a long line of financial advisors. Now let's say the government passes new regulations that substantially alter the way in which I am compensated for the work I do, heavily favoring the large advisory firms while at the same time negatively affecting the individual advisor. Do I need to adapt to the new regulations, change professions, or would it be OK for me to just ignore the new regulations and carry on as I always have?

KPC

10-Jan-18
Kevin, if you use an analogy, it needs to have the details in it. It isn't as simple as you are making it to be. This man's family settled this land when White's settled it, used this land to survive, paid for the right to do so when that become required, and was starved out to satisfy a backroom deal among liberal government officials and their buds. It has to be acknowledged that the land Vegas developers destroy yearly, is the same habitat that houses the turtles. But, in exchange for the right to dismiss the endangered species act to Clark County development issues, the government said we'll make up this lose due to development, on these farmers.

They did this in order to keep from being sued by the dang eco groups, for allowing grazing to continue on these BLM lands. So, they cooked the management plan to show grazing a potential threat, completely denied it an option in desert tortoise habitat, all the while allowing the development of the pocket padding developers.

We can make it all about the law if you want. But, if we do, we must then find out who was being paid to turn their heads to this ILLEGAL activity. Then prosecute them for corruption and whatever else will stick. All while holding them liable for damages to the ranchers, the community in whole, and lost turtle habitat to Vegas development. I'm all game if you are. Let's get it done. I'm praying for it.

From: KsRancher
10-Jan-18
As a cattle rancher myself, I don't think in any way should someone be able to graze federal/state land for free. I feel any and everyone should have a chance to graze it. Our local state land that is leased for grazing is puy up at auction. Everyone has an equal opportunity that way. He should have been booted the first year of no payment. I agree he may have needed that land to make a living, but should have paid for it. No if,ands, or buts.

From: K Cummings
10-Jan-18
WVM:

Admittedly, I don't know much about the particulars of this specific case, all I was trying to do was encourage people to look at it from both sides.

Public land is public land. I guess an argument could be made that the turtle freaks have as much say as some rancher in terms of what happens on public land.

In terms of the comparisons I made, the second one I am living right now. So is Kyle. There was just as many backroom dealings that went on, just as many palms being greased, and just as many entities standing to make a lot of money with the passage of the new DOL Fiduciary regulations that have pretty much crippled our industry for going on two years now. Do I agree with them? No. Will they cost me money? Yes. Will they drive a certain number of advisors completely out of their livelihood? Yes. Even so, we have to either adapt, or change professions. That's life. Nobody guarantees that your way of making a living is going to be guaranteed just because your ancestors did made a living that way.

KPC

From: BIG BEAR
11-Jan-18
Sixby.... If I believe in America and the rule of law being justly applied..... But I believe in giving Law Enforcement Officers the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to do their job in an honest and honorable way......

And I am not really a religious person...... and I believe people should try to live a law abiding honest life......

Then where do I fall in your 50/50 split of Americans ????

From: TD
11-Jan-18
"He should have been booted the first year of no payment." They denied him the lease before that, at least on a big chunk of it. They did not deny the lease for nonpayment, but for "environmental damage", i.e. the flippin' tortoise. WRT "damage" his family had been running cattle on the land a very long time with little "damage". (You need to see that land to get an idea of how brutal it is) He refused to move his cattle off, claiming it was his right, for several reasons, historical, etc. With no lease he quit paying. He offered to pay at one point and the feds refused to take payment, as that would mean granting a new lease. Yet the feds kept the meter running the entire time he had cattle on the land. Thus you get the "million dollar" tag with fines, fees, interest etc..... anything and everything they could come up with.

Bundy is likely a dick and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He made lots of mistakes, IMO while trying to hold on to a family heritage and history, not trying to make himself rich. (I think the feds actually understand and work better with those trying to get rich) But CLEARLY the feds made a good many mistakes as well. Likely all down the line, administrative, enforcement and obviously legally.

The courts, right or wrong made their decision. Personally I'm just kinda..... "encouraged" might be the word. The decision was for the little guy telling an overpowering bureaucratic monster, with management who did nothing to create or build the institutions but ran them like they did...... to go pound sand...... I like that. Kinda warms the heart.

Knowing how they work though...... I hold no hope the feds don't hold a grudge and leave it be.... I have no idea how this all washes out in the end or what the next bureaucratic fed plot will be. It could even come from a weaponized EPA or IRS or who knows, they ALL have SWAT teams now it seems.....

From: HDE
11-Jan-18
BIG BEAR - I'm pretty sure most of us appreciate and respect the duties and services provided that those who wear the uniform give.

However, that same crowd also expects the uniform to perform their duties with respect to the citizenry without the proverbial chip on their shoulder.

In general, if they can't handle the stress the job entails, find a new profession/career. The rest of us do. Going through life with the belief everyone is a crook is a self inflicted cancer...

From: BIG BEAR
11-Jan-18
Yes sir.... Respect should always go both ways..... There are a handful in Law Enforcement with a chip on their shoulder......... As there are some citizens with a chip on their shoulder against Law Enforcement.......

From: HDE
11-Jan-18
I agree.

From: muskeg
11-Jan-18
I would say the Bundy's have "a chip on their shoulder against Law Enforcement......."

11-Jan-18
I believe they are, at this point, entitled to that chip. People keep ignoring the abuses and over reach by government which is pervasive.

I have no doubt that many here will have an unfortunate run in with the government taking stuff from you unjustly if you live long enough.

I am familiar with the actions of the FS in my area, some of which are flat out illegal, and if more people were familiar they would be screaming bloody murder but with each property they take, whether they purchase or not, the precedent is set and the program that much more established. They are taking small populated towns right now in NH and Me but people in larger more southerly populated town's and cities wont be affected for many years even though the plans are there to see right now.

If they want to stop it they need to scream now. It will soon be too late if it isn't already.

Caution your children and grand children to look carefully at any planned refuges and federal holdings before they buy a piece of property because it may well get taken away.

So many cannot see past the end of their own noses.

From: brunse
11-Jan-18
BB

So I see the potential in our country’s near(20 years) future for a significant leo citizen conflict. I worry that laws will be passed that make common people criminals... such as ordering firearm registration or be considered a criminal... etc Then leo s will be asked to go to otherwise common, law abiding, tax paying citizens homes to detain or confiscate.

My hope is that those wearing badges and firearms spend a significant amount of time contemplating whether they will do their job or quit their job when orders like this come across their radio or desk.

Do you believe Young officers consider such things?

From: BIG BEAR
11-Jan-18
Brunse..... That is a pretty vague hypothetical question.....

I think that some people misdirect their anger with the laws they don't agree with and take it out on the "Goons" and Jack Booted Thugs.... And expect those in Law Enforcement to refuse to enforce any and every law or order that they deem to be unconstitutional or improper.....

That is why I asked Spike Bull if he has ever been in the military..... Ask JTV if he ever told his Gunny Sgt. That he will be refusing to follow that order because he thinks it's illegal....

Look.... I have stated that I believe the residents of Michigan have a Constitutional right to carry a concealed pistol without having to obtain a CPL. But it is my job to arrest a person that I come into contact with a concealed pistol without a CPL....

I believe that it should be legal for citizens to have marijuana... but if I come in contact with someone in possession of it without a medical marijuana card, it is my job to arrest them.....

My point is that if you want a law changed.... lobby to change it........ But don't expect Law Enforcement Officers to quit their job for Enforcement of a law you don't agree with.......

The Goon Jack Booted Thugs comments are the same crap that Obama was saying which only drives a wedge between Law Enforcement and citizens... You like President Trump don't you Spike ?? Have you ever ONCE heard him refer to anyone in Law Enforcement as a GOON or a JACKBOOTED THUG..... or show any disrespect towards them and the military ??

From: Sixby
11-Jan-18
I remember an incident in Vietnam where a Lieutenant ordered the massacre of an entire village of people , lined them us an shot them. During the trial the men were told that they should have disobeyed the unlawful order and not participated in the murder. Just saying, there are circumstances where people do have to obey their consciouses, morality and what they know is right. There also was a movie with Tom Cruise called A Few Good Men where the CO Tommy Jones ordered the extreme hazing of a sick young man and he died. Famous words were you want the truth!! You can't handle the truth. The colonel was absolutely sure he was right. Wrong!!!!! God bless, Steve

From: BIG BEAR
11-Jan-18
That was a good movie.... The young Navy Lt. prosecuting the old man... It was Jack Nicholson....

From: K Cummings
11-Jan-18
In both those examples, people were ordered to do something that was illegal.

I think that's a little different than refusing to comply with a lawful regulation.

KPC

From: HDE
11-Jan-18
Going back to the example above for guns - if a state were to do an outright ban of firearms, if ordered by the state to have LE go door to door to confiscate or arrest, would LE be obliged to carry out that law even if federal law dictates otherwise?

From: Glunt@work
11-Jan-18
Do most LE officers take an oath to uphold the Constitution?

From: Sixby
11-Jan-18
Glunt, Great question. Since many Democrat states are breaking federal law and harboring illegal criminal aliens I have my doubts about them requiring an oath to the constitution. However the President and his cabinet all swear to uphold the laws and constitution.

God bless, Steve

From: HDE
11-Jan-18
^^^ so do governor's...

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