Sitka Mountain Gear
Why We Are Fat
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Contributors to this thread:
Owl 01-Aug-18
HDE 01-Aug-18
tonyo6302 01-Aug-18
kentuckbowhnter 01-Aug-18
HA/KS 01-Aug-18
HA/KS 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
HA/KS 01-Aug-18
HA/KS 01-Aug-18
Bowfreak 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
HDE 01-Aug-18
slade 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
JTV 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
DL 01-Aug-18
Bowfreak 01-Aug-18
Spike Bull 01-Aug-18
JTV 01-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 01-Aug-18
Dirk Diggler 01-Aug-18
Hackbow 01-Aug-18
elkmtngear 01-Aug-18
JTV 01-Aug-18
HDE 01-Aug-18
bluedog 01-Aug-18
MT in MO 01-Aug-18
DL 01-Aug-18
WV Mountaineer 01-Aug-18
JTV 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
JTV 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Coyote 65 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Jim Moore 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
JTV 01-Aug-18
Woods Walker 01-Aug-18
JTV 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
Owl 01-Aug-18
HDE 01-Aug-18
sleepyhunter 01-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
Brotsky 02-Aug-18
Buckiller 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 02-Aug-18
Brotsky 02-Aug-18
elkmtngear 02-Aug-18
Brotsky 02-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
elkmtngear 02-Aug-18
Brotsky 02-Aug-18
NvaGvUp 02-Aug-18
Hackbow 02-Aug-18
Spike Bull 02-Aug-18
Hackbow 02-Aug-18
slade 02-Aug-18
Hackbow 02-Aug-18
NvaGvUp 02-Aug-18
Brotsky 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
Jim in Ohio 02-Aug-18
NvaGvUp 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
NvaGvUp 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
JTV 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
Hackbow 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
HA/KS 02-Aug-18
Owl 02-Aug-18
Pig Doc 02-Aug-18
Woods Walker 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
Woods Walker 03-Aug-18
Crusader dad 03-Aug-18
Spike Bull 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
Jim in Ohio 03-Aug-18
Jim in Ohio 03-Aug-18
Brotsky 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
HA/KS 03-Aug-18
Trax 03-Aug-18
Brotsky 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
slade 03-Aug-18
Trax 03-Aug-18
Will 03-Aug-18
WV Mountaineer 03-Aug-18
Brotsky 03-Aug-18
Trax 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
Woods Walker 03-Aug-18
HA/KS 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
Will 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
Owl 03-Aug-18
HA/KS 03-Aug-18
ben h 03-Aug-18
Bownarrow 04-Aug-18
Hackbow 04-Aug-18
Owl 04-Aug-18
Crusader dad 04-Aug-18
Woods Walker 04-Aug-18
Spike Bull 04-Aug-18
Owl 04-Aug-18
Spike Bull 04-Aug-18
Woods Walker 04-Aug-18
Spike Bull 04-Aug-18
Owl 04-Aug-18
Owl 04-Aug-18
Rocky 04-Aug-18
Owl 04-Aug-18
Spike Bull 04-Aug-18
Will 04-Aug-18
Pig Doc 04-Aug-18
Rocky 04-Aug-18
Woods Walker 04-Aug-18
Pig Doc 04-Aug-18
NvaGvUp 04-Aug-18
Pig Doc 04-Aug-18
Owl 04-Aug-18
JTV 04-Aug-18
Will 04-Aug-18
HA/KS 05-Aug-18
Owl 05-Aug-18
HA/KS 05-Aug-18
Owl 06-Aug-18
HA/KS 06-Aug-18
Trax 06-Aug-18
Owl 06-Aug-18
HA/KS 06-Aug-18
Owl 06-Aug-18
HA/KS 06-Aug-18
Owl 07-Aug-18
HA/KS 07-Aug-18
Brotsky 07-Aug-18
Owl 07-Aug-18
Hackbow 07-Aug-18
Owl 07-Aug-18
Owl 07-Aug-18
Hackbow 07-Aug-18
Pig Doc 07-Aug-18
HA/KS 07-Aug-18
NvaGvUp 07-Aug-18
Rocky 07-Aug-18
Pig Doc 07-Aug-18
HA/KS 07-Aug-18
Owl 08-Aug-18
Bowbender 08-Aug-18
Spike Bull 08-Aug-18
bigswivle 08-Aug-18
Owl 08-Aug-18
Owl 08-Aug-18
Brotsky 08-Aug-18
Owl 08-Aug-18
shiloh 08-Aug-18
Pig Doc 08-Aug-18
Owl 08-Aug-18
HA/KS 08-Aug-18
Pig Doc 08-Aug-18
Owl 10-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 10-Aug-18
Owl 10-Aug-18
gflight 10-Aug-18
gflight 10-Aug-18
Owl 10-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 10-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 10-Aug-18
Joey Ward 10-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 10-Aug-18
Joey Ward 10-Aug-18
Mike the Carpenter 10-Aug-18
Joey Ward 10-Aug-18
Owl 10-Aug-18
Hackbow 10-Aug-18
Owl 10-Aug-18
Spike Bull 11-Aug-18
Owl 11-Aug-18
From: Owl
01-Aug-18
Joe Rogan and Dr. Peter Attia discuss the role hormones play in nutritional partitioning and the use versus accumulation of adipose tissue. A good 7 minutes.

https://youtu.be/tiQevGDPgRY

From: HDE
01-Aug-18
Hormones injected into animals or the ones from stress related to many people's lives these days?

The end of the video feed answers the question above, and is not surprising either...

From: tonyo6302
01-Aug-18
You guys are stressing me out. I just gained a pound.

01-Aug-18
i thought i was overweight because i consumed more calories than i burned.

01-Aug-18
To me.........it's as simple as what Kentucky posts. I exercise hard most days and eat 100% what I want and I'm have maintained essentially a perfect weight after a couple of years of working like that. As long as I do that......I could live on a beer and donut diet and I wouldn't gain weight......but there are lots of things like genetics, even your gut micro biome supposedly can even play a huge role here as well. I will say that I for sure have never met anyone who knows 1/2 as much as our Mr Owl on this topic of what you eat and nutrition and such.

From: HA/KS
01-Aug-18

HA/KS's embedded Photo
HA/KS's embedded Photo
I remember seeing a chart of hormone sources in our diets and the amount from meat was infinitesimal compared to other sources such as soy.

01-Aug-18
Research shows fat people were not loved to a satisfactory level from their time in the womb until they declared allegiance to the Democrat party.

SA is correct IMO. Burn more calories than you take in is where to start. Lack of discipline for me. Bad back has just been an excuse.

The opening statement was made up just to have fun. But, there probably is such a study, no doubt funded by tax dollars.

From: HA/KS
01-Aug-18
This is the first time in human history when being fat was an affliction of the poor.

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
I fall on the other side of the spectrum from SA. I have always been athletic and exercised... But I was always fat. It wasn’t until I ate to control insulin did I lose a ton of fat and keep it off.

Attia addresses the difference between SA and me in saying some are metabolically flexible enough to better partition calories. I believe that is true. SA is adapted and staves off maladaptation with regular rigorous exercise. Me, I was maladapted from the womb so hormone regulation is a primary goal for me, nutritionally speaking. And, given our diets are so incredibly hyperinsulemic, I hazard that is true for the rest of our widening western culture.

Anyway, this is a pet topic of interest and I rarely see such a succinct summation of the whole problem so I decided to pass it along.

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
Guys, the thermogenic weight loss model has a 95% failure rate. Calories in/ calories out just does not work. It is incomplete.

HA, imo, animal meat products should form the basis of our food pyramid.

01-Aug-18
Owl, you are on to something. I had no weight problem really until my 40s, when I became a type 2 diabetic. Genetic, as this was pre back surgery and I was still running. Metabolism certainly decreased with age, but the diabetes makes controlling weight even tougher.

Or maybe I am making excuses again.

From: HA/KS
01-Aug-18
Owl, the fact that so many people are broke does not negate the fact that you can become financially healthy by spending less than you make.

From: HA/KS
01-Aug-18
Afternoon Delight

I was sitting at my computer by the window yesterday when I looked up and saw the little red car zip into our parking space and an old man jump out.

“On no,” I thought, glancing at the clock. “3:30. My heart can’t take this excitement.”

I unlocked the door, and a second later my husband appeared. He hugged me tightly, backed up and said, “Wha’d’ya think? You wanna?”

“Oh, John, it’s too hot for the Nature Center. Let’s wait for a cooler day.”

“You know I’m not talking about the Nature Center,” he said, lifting and lowering his eyebrows in rapid succession.

“Oh John, really, we’re getting too old for this. It’s too much pressure, and we don’t have enough time.”

“Sure we do,” he said, looking at his watch, then giving me a come hither stare. “And age is just a number. How many times do I have to tell you that?”

I headed for the bedroom with Peter Pan on my heels.

He tore off his hospital-volunteer shirt and hurried to the bathroom while I removed my blouse and stepped into the closet. John was leaving the bathroom when I came from the closet and threw him a shirt. I put on a presentable blouse, then scurried into the bathroom for lipstick and a quick comb-thru. He stood at the door tucking in his shirt.

“Come on, you don’t need to do that. You look great.” My husband always says that.

He handed me “Old Blue,” and we rushed down the steps and got into the “Red Rocket,” John’s affectionate name for his late-life-crisis toy. I have to admit that behind the wheel of the cherry-red Scion XB, wearing his bright blue shirt, John looked like a young man -- not a gentleman of 85 with whistling hearing aids, a squeaky foot brace, and a groaning hernia.

I held onto the handle above the door as we zoomed onto the boulevard and headed south. At a red light, we looked frantically at the clock on the dashboard.

“Gonna be close!” My husband has always been a thrill seeker. Me? I closed my eyes. Minutes later, we pulled into a parking spot at our destination with only seconds to spare. John usually opens my door, but there was no time for niceties today. We hopped from the car, as though we were afraid of missing the overture at a hot-ticket Broadway musical – and ran through the door, stepping behind the last person in line just before the man pulled the rope across the aisle behind us and snapped it to the pole. Phew!

Anybody who thinks that true adventure and excitement are behind you when you’ve reached your eighties, clearly hasn’t experienced the Early Bird Special Senior Buffet at the Golden Corral -- with New England clam chowder that melts in your mouth, and corn bread worthy of the gods. Be warned. Prices go up at 4 o’clock. Peg

From: Bowfreak
01-Aug-18
"i thought i was overweight because i consumed more calories than i burned"

Pretty simple and spot on.

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
HA, your analogy needs a wife that spends more than you make. :)

The gut microbiome is its own rabbit hole. Fascinating what occurs in there. Folks call it our “second brain.”

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
HfW,

T2 diabetes is largely a lifestyle disease. One folks most folks need only suffer if they insist on eating carbs.

There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate btw. Don’t need a single one to live. Can’t say the same about amino acids or fats.

01-Aug-18
It's tough being Italian and not eating carbs. But, I know you are right.

From: HDE
01-Aug-18
I thought the good doctor in the video said it matters what you eat and not so much of how often or how much.

Calories in < calories out doesn't work. If that's the case, a normal weight male 35 yrs old that ate a 1500 calorie diet of pure processed sugar every day wouldn't stay slim, or healthy, very long...

From: slade
01-Aug-18

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
HfW, I know what you mean. There was a brief mourning period when I realized biscuits and gravy weren’t my path to vigor... But on the bright side, if you give up crappy carbs, the cravings leave shortly after.

From: JTV
01-Aug-18
your fat because you eat like crap and dont exercise ... there are some more prone to being so because of genetics or serious health reasons, other than that eat correctly and get off your ass and exercise ..

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
JTV, tell that to offensive linemen and Sumo wrestlers.

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
Thanks for the embed slade. Couldn’t pull that off this morning.

From: DL
01-Aug-18
After 40 you put on around 10 pounds every 10 years. I had 9 surgeries in three years. Put on 3 pounds every surgery. Here’s something that we have personally witnessed. Our second son slept though the night right after he was born. My wife didn’t wake him up to feed him every few hours to feed him. We didn’t realize how thin he was until years latter looking at his baby pictures. Well fast forward. That same son is still thin at 40. He can eat anything and not gain weight. He loves cheese on salads potatoes or just about anything. Eat less exercise more. Pretty simple sounding. The older I get the better food tastes.

From: Bowfreak
01-Aug-18
"Guys, the thermogenic weight loss model has a 95% failure rate. Calories in/ calories out just does not work. It is incomplete. "

I guess I am in the 5%.

01-Aug-18
Great videos, thanks, Owl!

I am one who can eat most anything, at least once in while (Biscuits and gravy! YUM! Only about once a month!) Repeated application of beers on a daily basis will collect on my gut but, with very little discipline, I have maintained my weight within a few pounds of 180 for the last 30+ years. I never feel deprived, if I want something I have it.

I walk between 2 and 4 miles every day and climb over 3000 steps per week.

My wife is an excellent cook and has studied health and nutrition for at least 40 years. The vast majority of what we eat is organic or at least more natural. I have always eaten a lot of meat and enjoy fresh vegetables. Most everything processed is a rarety.

From: JTV
01-Aug-18
Owl, but can that Sumo wrestler run 10-20 miles ... maybe, maybe the lineman can, but with some of the bellies Ive seen on some, I doubt it ..

01-Aug-18

Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
So now you have to run roughly a 1/2 marathon to be healthy?

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
Mike that’s how people catabolize muscle mass, temporarily shrink and, eventually get fatter.

01-Aug-18

Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
The other option.

From: Dirk Diggler
01-Aug-18
When we cleaned out my grandmother's house 10yrs ago the biggest dinner plate in the house was 9in. The plate of Mexican food I had Sunday night had to be 18in with a dish of tortillas on the side. I brought half of it home.

From: Hackbow
01-Aug-18
I have battled weight issues since puberty. I played every sport available in HS, worked for a farmer, also worked on a custom hay baling crew and still managed to hunt and/or fish about 200 days/yr. My teammates enjoyed calling me fat ass, lard ass, etc, even though I was only slightly larger than them. Starting around 22, it was if I could see my body getting larger everyweek. I was still extremely active.

One of my best friends would always encourage me to lose weight so I could be healthy and we could hunt together for many years. About 7 or 8 yrs ago he apologized for chiding me about my weight all those years. He said he'd noticed that I ate less than him, I ate generally better food than he did, I was just as active as him and had fewer other health issues than him.

People have different issues to address. We are not all built the same and some of us have to deal with extremes. Couldn't tell you where I am on the spectrum, but I can tell you that easy thermogenic math doesn't work for me like it does for my friend.

Those of you spouting off that weight loss is only calories in vs calories out simply don't have a clue.

Thanks for the heads up Owl. I'll dig a little deeper into what this guy is talking about and I may PM some specific questions to you after elk season. I gotta drag my fat ass all over the mountains while the keyboard warriors tell me I'm lazy. ;o)

From: elkmtngear
01-Aug-18
So, it sounds like the guy on the video is advocating intermittent fasting? Did I get that wrong?

I always thought regular fasting put your body into "starvation mode"...causing you to store more calories as fat reserves?

I have a friend that does intermittent fasting, he's over 60, looks good for his age.

From: JTV
01-Aug-18
I didnt say that did I .... BTW, a marathon is 26.2 miles ;0)

From: HDE
01-Aug-18
"The other option."

Worked. Not hungry anymore...

From: bluedog
01-Aug-18

bluedog's embedded Photo
bluedog's embedded Photo

From: MT in MO
01-Aug-18
bluedog has the answer right there...LOL

From: DL
01-Aug-18

DL's embedded Photo
DL's embedded Photo
This was a real thing. The jockey that rode Seabiscuit reportedly used hem to loose weight.

01-Aug-18
The doctor was talking about when the body starts producing insulin to balance the energy the body releases from its fat cells. It comes from in taking less energy then the body needs to complete the tasks put on it. It is the basis of the "less in, more out" argument. However, the point that most of those people seem to be missing is the reason that doesn't work for some people.

It has been well known now for a long time among most nutritionists, that restricted caloric diets are not the answer for most people to lose and keep weight off. There is a reason for that. Most of it is due to not being sustainable. Yet, doctors and most every skinny person would insist that the problem was the the fat people were simply eating to much. So, they would suggest them to starve themselves. And, starving yourself is not sustainable.

The reason everyone who starves themselves while dieting, gain much more weight back, then they lost is, their body stops producing insulin in the amounts needed to break down the new amount of carbohydrates when you start eating again. When their bodies A1C level is low, they WILL eat much more per setting, then when normal or high. Without enough insulin to break it down, we all know where it goes then.

Since It takes a pattern of eating to get a A1C level to move or stabilize. It's a double whammy for these people. With the lower levels of insulin being produced plus, the craving and ability to eat so much more then usual, the end up OVER eating every setting, whether they try to or not.

People genetically predisposed against this do not understand what these people go through. So , they call them fat, lard ass, lazy, etc..... All along being too ignorant to know better. Because "What works for me must work for everyone right?". "It's easy, look at me. Just do what I do.". Look at this thread for proof. Tell me how you are doing with that 10 years from now if you used it to lose substantial weight. I hope well. But, averages say not.

There is a lot more to it then that or what I just typed. Which is what Owl is trying to point out to some of you.

From: JTV
01-Aug-18
hmmm, seems I eluded to this in a round about way in my first post ....

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
I suspected my brother had a tape worm... until he hit his 30s. lol

Hackbow, I'll be glad to answer any questions at any time. We sound very similar.

Insulin is "the fat storage" hormone. Carbohydrate rich (even calorie restricted) diets chronically over produce insulin and cause the body to store fat. Makes sense. What does not make sense is why we have been so cultured to solve an overwhelmingly biochemical issue with physics (thermogenesis). At best, expenditure is a secondary concern for most people.

From: JTV
01-Aug-18

JTV's Link
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2018/08/01/georgia-man-reveals-100-pound-weight-loss-after-training-to-become-cop.html

From: Owl
01-Aug-18

Owl's Link
Dr. Barry Groves. Long but fully comprehensive as to how we evolved to eat meat and fat. Very plain-spoken and provides insight as to why RDA guidelines are downright pathological. A bit monotone but give the man a break. He is a British champion archer.

From: Owl
01-Aug-18

From: Coyote 65
01-Aug-18
A tapeworm is the ideal pet, eats what you eat, goes where you go.

Terry

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
JTV, great story but I'd like to revisit where Officer Cornelius is in a year or 2.

From: Jim Moore
01-Aug-18
I am 6' 3". 34" waist and 36" inseam. I weigh about 220 and my doctor the cardiologist told me to lose about 20#'s. I look pretty skinny to most but I guess a lot of men carry fat internally. He told me cut back on carbs, especially white carbs and sugar, but don't starve yourself. He said that you cannot lose weight if you are hungry. I believe that. He mentioned that eating a sirloin steak was better than heating a medium subway sandwich.

I know people that want to lose weight that you just cannot convince that eating healthy fats is better than eating carbs. I think there is a pretty popular diet out there right now called the Keto diet that kind of falls along those lines.

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
"I didnt say that did I .... BTW, a marathon is 26.2 miles ;0)"

-That's what you implied. and I wrote "roughly 1/2 a marathon" - 13.1 miles. And that number falls roughly between the "10-20" you cited.

From: JTV
01-Aug-18
he has to stay away from Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks ;0) ... I dont eat sweets per se... only my Punkin' pies in the fall/winter, with Cool Whip.. a LOT of Cool Whip ..lol..... I quit drinking sodas of any kind about 10 years back, I'm a Iced tea, lemon only guy ... same for beer, very very seldom will I have one, but I will sometimes have just the one if we go out for Pizza.... carbs are my downfall, Pizza, Spaghetti, lasagna, various breads (but always whole wheat for sandwiches, hotdog buns, burgers), Mac and Cheese, venison Tacos, Tater Tots or fries with my Venison Burgers, Mashed taters, Baked Taters, the occasional Pancakes with Honey, etc.. I try to eat healthy, lean meats, fish, chicken, veggies, salads and wild game of course, but no sweets, no candy, no Fudge, no Dairy Queen, etc..... but those damn carbs get me every time...even with my running, I eat to many carbs ..

From: Woods Walker
01-Aug-18
When the calories you take in are more than the calories you burn, then you will get fat. We get fat at different rates because our metabolisms vary, but the core equation is the same. Simple math.

From: JTV
01-Aug-18
... all I saw was "marathon"..... anywho... you can lose weight just by walking and eating correctly, dont have to do 5k's/10's or longer "runs" .. you can lose weight by biking or other aerobic activities... just get active, and watch your intake of the right foods ..

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
So fat people are just really bad at math...lol

From: Owl
01-Aug-18
It's actually much easier to regulate intake when the types of energy consumed do not que one's body to increase appetite, as well.

As for math, have you done the simple math relative to the margin of error required to just maintain static weight?

Assuming a 2500 calorie a day requirement x 365 days a year, a man needs to consume 912,500 calories a year. Given a pound of fat is 3500 calories, to maintain one's weight a man would have to intuitively consume to an accuracy of less than .383% in energy input versus output. That's absurd. No, rather the body is a highly complex homeostatic organism that seeks to maximize its being with the information, the food, provided. Give it "bad information" and you'll get bad results.

From: HDE
01-Aug-18
I wish it were as simple as reducing caloric intake by 15% to reduce fat by 15%...

From: sleepyhunter
01-Aug-18
Since my double knee replacements I walk in the evenings now with the Wife. We walk 2.5 to 3 miles each night 6 nights a week. I have a tread mill for the days with bad weather. I don't drink alcohol anymore and I've never smoked. My downfall is Mexican and Italian food. Just had my 6 month check up my Cholesterol and Triglycerides checked great. It wouldn't hurt me a bit to lose at least 20-30 pounds.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
elkmtngear, I did not want to miss answering your questions.

"So, it sounds like the guy on the video is advocating intermittent fasting? Did I get that wrong?" IF works for some, others not so much. Either way, it is not a primary mechanism to healthy eating. That stated, if your macros are good and your body is functioning healthily, IF has proven to be very anabolic for some people. That's good and logical because our DNA has evolved to eat sporadically rather than "a small meal 5-6 times a day." In fact, while not my argument, a good case could be made that if a person can't thrive on 1 big meal a day, they are doing something wrong.

"I always thought regular fasting put your body into "starvation mode"...causing you to store more calories as fat reserves?" It absolutely does if your diet is mandating a lot of insulin. One reason the calories in/out model does not work long term. The body down- regulates to accommodate the "crisis" of energy deficit. Further, the body will sacrifice lean body muscle to convert to glucose/glycogen because it is metabolically expensive and the body is qued via diet hormonally to store fat.

"I have a friend that does intermittent fasting, he's over 60, looks good for his age." He probably functions good for his age, too.

From: Brotsky
02-Aug-18
Stop worrying about calories and eat a diet that is 50% fat, 40% protein, and 10% carbs. Read labels and avoid sugars and sugar substitutes to the extent possible. You will be amazed at how much better you feel, how much more energy you have, and how your body responds. Changing to this diet for me has been eye opening. If you keep your eating window to about 8 hours per day and fast for the other 16 the pounds just melt off. No more fat camp for this guy! Ha!

02-Aug-18
It took me almost 20 years to get from 235 to the 200 lbs I weigh today. The last 10 lbs took a decade......but to be honest I was never doing it to lose weight. I was doing to be cardio and endurance fit. Once you learn to get that endorphin buzz it's like drugs...

From: Buckiller
02-Aug-18
Definitely a 5% here.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
I’m with you Brotsky. When I stopped counting and ate the right macros, the weight fell off. No cravings, no counting. Satiation was my calorie counter.

Likewise, I’m with you SA on “the buzz.” I’ve been taking hits my whole life. :)

02-Aug-18
For you 50/40/10% guys (Owl/Brotsky), what does your daily meals consist of?

From: Brotsky
02-Aug-18
Mike, average day I'll eat eggs, bacon, avocado for my noon meal. Might supplement with some almonds and elk sticks in the afternoon. Evening I'll eat a steak or a burger or something with green leafy veggies like broccoli, green beans, asparagus, etc. Maybe some romaine lettuce with vinegar/olive oil dressing. Eat a lot of cheese, cook most everything in olive oil or butter. I love elk/deer tacos using romaine wraps instead of tortillas with a generous heaping of guacamole, etc. Lots of options.

From: elkmtngear
02-Aug-18

elkmtngear's embedded Photo
elkmtngear's embedded Photo
"I love elk/deer tacos using romaine wraps instead of tortillas "

These things saved me...I can cut sugar, potatoes, rice out of my diet easily, but bread/tortillas is tough. I wrap everything in these, fry them in coconut oil sometimes, I even toast them and throw them on a pizza stone in the broiler, to make low carb mini pizzas.

From: Brotsky
02-Aug-18
Jeff, I generally eat under 25g of carbs per day. A few tacos and I'd be over my limit! Ha! The thing that kills me is not drinking beer. I love a good beer. Good thing I love whiskey more or it would be a real problem!

02-Aug-18
Sounds very similar to the Whole30. I do fantastic while I’m able to stay on it, but with the limits of the 5 groups (Dairy, sugar, grains, Legumes and alcohol...of any kind/form), it is nearly impossible having a wife that doesn’t see it the same way as I do, and the kids LOVE all the other stuff minus the alcohol. I just do my best and enjoy life to the fullest. Last night, I celebrated my 28 year anniversary of joining the military, 24th anniversary of the first home I built and 13th anniversary of my current employment with a 1” thick T-bone steak from the bison I killed out west last December.

Yeah, August 1st/2nd has been wonderful to me over the years.

I’ve gone so far as to make my own bacon and eat two pieces every morning along with three eggs. Making your own bacon is not only rewarding, it healthy AND just flat out manly.

As long as a guy keeps trying, he is always in the fight. As soon as he gives up, it’s all over.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
I eat twice a day - about 50/50 on protein and fat by volume. (That represents an increase in protein to underwrite anaerobic development).

Zero processed foods other than sugarless cured bacon. No breads, potatoes or junk food period. Ever. No vegetable oils as they are unstable and toxic.

Green, fiborous veggies are whenever I want them. I supplement with dessicated beef organ pills because I can’t stomach organ meats just yet. (It is my contention that humans evolved to get their vitamins and minerals via organs, muscle meat and fat.) I also use coconut oil and butter.

I don’t cheat but a burger bun or a beer every 3-4 months. I have no urge to vary. At all. I love this plan of eating. Lost 80 pounds, fixed my insomnia. Energy is great. Never hungry. The only detriment was on lower protein levels, I’d gas quickly during a HiiT workout. I assume low glycogen levels?? Just needed to tweak up my protein intake.

From: elkmtngear
02-Aug-18

elkmtngear's embedded Photo
elkmtngear's embedded Photo
Justin...I'm shaving the numbers even more for you ;^D

From: Brotsky
02-Aug-18
Awesome Jeff! Now I can eat 8 tacos! Ha! Only issue is no wheat on this plan :( The lack of bread in my life is saddening!

From: NvaGvUp
02-Aug-18
kentuckbowhunter is right.

Regardless of your personal metabolism and make up, you cannot gain weight unless you take in more calories than you burn.

That's all there is to it. Anything else is just an excuse.

From: Hackbow
02-Aug-18

Hackbow's Link
Here you go Brotsky. Going to pick up the ingredients and give them a try this weekend.

02-Aug-18
Owl, do you think that some good carbs in the evening would keep you from hitting the wall in workouts the next day?

From: Hackbow
02-Aug-18

Hackbow's Link
A few more good potential recipes here. I miss bread terribly.

From: slade
02-Aug-18
""dessicated beef organ pills""

Thanks Owl, that is the only way I could ever eat liver or brains. I love heart simmered in cold press olive oil, love tripe and tongue, can tolerate sweet bread and kidneys if I have to.

From: Hackbow
02-Aug-18
"Regardless of your personal metabolism and make up, you cannot gain weight unless you take in more calories than you burn.

That's all there is to it. Anything else is just an excuse."

Respectfully Kyle, that's not all there is to it. Read Owl's posts above addressing the simple math used in the thermogenic model. Using your logic, "Regardless of your personal metabolism and make up...", building muscle and strength would simply be a function of how much weight one lifts and how often. There are way too many other factors to consider.

How do you explain my decades-long hunting partner who eats more than me (of any type of food) and has periodically "lived" in the weight room, whereas I haven't been in the weight room regularly in 36 years. He can't sustain weight gain, I struggle to lose a pound. He looks like an athlete but doesn't possess anywhere near my strength. He's 6'1" and I'm 5'11". We are 14 months apart in age and I outweigh him by over 100 lbs.

I have never made an excuse for my weight and understand that it is on me. I just need to find a way that works well. I've tried many methods over the years with a variety of results. None have worked as well as the high fat, very low carb way of life.

You may be in sheep shape, and I know you can run multiple circles around me. But you work out constantly. And me, being a fat lazy slug, pushed a pencil in office work for over 30 years and rarely darkened the doorway of a gym. You couldn't last 3 seconds with me armwrestling or splitting wood or carrying a 170 lb buddy on your back across a swamp while hunting (which I've done). Without trying, I know I am physically stronger than you (personal metabolism and makeup). If you and I were to go to the gym and throw iron around, my gains would be be much greater and much faster than yours.

You see, strength gains and increased lean muscle mass MUST ONLY be a function of #pounds of iron pushed + grams of protein consumed. What is the "excuse" of someone who is not as strong as me when they work out more than me? It can't possibly be their personal metabolism and makeup. Can it?

From: NvaGvUp
02-Aug-18
Hackbow,

Perhaps I didn't say it clearly enough.

Of course, the fact is we all have different metabolisms and different bodies.

Yet if a person burns 'X" calories per day but takes in more than "X" caloroies per day, he will gain weight.

Now, one guy who is age 45, 5' 10" and weighs 180 will very likely have a different "X" than another guy of the same age, height and weight.

But that fact remains, if you consume more calories than you burn off, you will gain weight.

From: Brotsky
02-Aug-18
Hackbow, thanks for the recipes, there's a couple in there I have not seen and will have to try!

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
"Owl, do you think that some good carbs in the evening would keep you from hitting the wall in workouts the next day?" - Spike, it could but that would retard my primary long term goal of getting my blood glucose (BG) in a ketogenic range. Theoretically, I should be able to function and make my own glycogen from ketones. I have not been able to do that to my satisfaction. Though, I have restored my metabolism well enough to eat more protein without spiking my BG levels which previously was no the case. This feels like the sweet spot. Steady, low BG # and more "pop" in my workouts.

Interestingly, my steady-state aerobic capacity was and is off the charts high compared to where I was previously. It must be easier for me to use ketones in that capacity.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
Nva, I wonder if you have wild fluctuations in bodyweight year after year. I reckon you must.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
You and me both slade. I was really happy to find those "little brown pills." Well, they're not so 'little.' lol

If you have any interest, get the organic sources without rice filler. My brand is Ancestral Supplements Grassfed Beef Liver but there are others out there.

From: Jim in Ohio
02-Aug-18
Why am I so thin. All my life I wanted to be heavier but no matter how much I ate I stayed at 6ft 2, and 190 pounds. My dad, Granddad, and Great Granddad all got thinner the older they got. They all lived to be 90 or older.

From: NvaGvUp
02-Aug-18
Owl,

Nope, I do not.

I maintain my weight +/- a couple of pounds year round.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
"a couple of pounds a year" is 7000 calories per annum. Your position would have your input/output at an efficacy of less than 1% or less than 20 calories day-to-day. Again, that premise is utterly absurd.

From: NvaGvUp
02-Aug-18
I monitor my weight daily. If it starts rising, I cut back on the size on my portions. If it falls below my target, I eat a bit more.

I understand the body wants to gain weight going into the winter and shed weight going into the summer. So I simply take in fewer calories when the calendar calls for a weight gain, but take in a bit more when it calls for a weight loss.

With rare exceptions, usually caused by traveling when I consume more food and esp.liquids and burn off less than normal, (which adds a couple of pounds, but which drops off within three days of returning home), 95%+ of the days, my morning weight is within 154-159.

Calories in, Calories out.

It's not rocket science.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
Hey Jim, just eat an extra peanut butter and jelly sandwich everyday. You'll pile on the pounds. Just ask Nva. It's only math...

Nva, consider what you just wrote. Do you really believe you drop a couple pounds of travel weight in 3 days by creating a caloric deficit? 7000 calories in 3 days is rather severe. No, that's mostly water retention from the disruption to your routine (preferred food and exercise, etc.) Likewise, the variations you notice in your weight has more to do with inflammation and recovery from your training than the ability to shave weight by a margin of error equating to less than a mouthful a day.

From: JTV
02-Aug-18

JTV's Link
just putting this here ... https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/poll-only-5-americans-are-vegetarians-3-vegans-majority-liberals

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
The successful thermogenic 5%? lol

From: Hackbow
02-Aug-18
"Perhaps I didn't say it clearly enough."

No Kyle, I very clearly understood your statement and agree with it 100%. However, that statement was and is not relevant to the discussion. Did you watch the video of Rogan and Dr. Attia discussing the hormonal issue? How about any of the other videos that followed? I did. Dr. Attia appears to be very fit, said he has been studying and researching this topic for years, and he doesn't think the thermogenic model tells us what we need to know about one's ability to lose weight.

I'm sure even you can agree that any human needs some minimum number of calories to provide available, working fuel (energy) for whatever level of activity in which they engage on a daily basis. The doc's points were that some of those people (due in part to hormonal differences) will not process the incoming calories as efficiently to provide that energy. Therefore, to produce the same level of activity between two people, one may require more caloric intake. Then, the burning of the calories between the two may also be done at different rates for the same level of activity. If the less efficient person on the intake is also less efficient on the usage, then the fat lazy slob gets to enjoy buying husky jeans, paying more for shirts and the not-so-quiet derisive comments when dining out.

Again, your statement is 100% true. It was also akin to stating that 2 + 2 = 4 when the rest of the class was discussing differential equations. It is a base function of the problem we are trying to solve, but it doesn't help with the variables.

I propose we discuss this further in the mountains where we schedule a race and a weight lifting contest. I'll concede the first to you, you concede the latter to me and we'll shoot our bows then sip some good bourbon or single malt (no carbs!).

02-Aug-18

Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Worked hard on the farm all day. Was really looking forward to dinner, but you guys ruined it for me. Thanks!

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
You get it Hackbow. The amount of insulin and the enzymatic processes associated determine partitioning. Partitioning determines adiposity, available energy and muscle growth. Much of that is genetically structured but epigenetically accessed. That's why food is best conceived as data rather than just gross energy units. The quality of food can "lock" and "unlock" genetic potential (healthy adaptation or maladaptation).

From: HA/KS
02-Aug-18
Argue about X all you want, but it is a fact of chemistry that if you burn/expel more than you take in you will lose weight. If you take in more than you get rid of you will gain weight.

That is a fact of science.

From: Owl
02-Aug-18
lol. apologies HfW

From: Pig Doc
02-Aug-18
"Regardless of your personal metabolism and make up, you cannot gain weight unless you take in more calories than you burn."

This is like saying you can't increase your net worth unless you save more money than you spend. Both are true in a macro way but both are also extremely elementary.

In reality the rate at which you ultimately increase your net worth depends on how the money is invested.

Same for caloric utilization. Multiple factors affect caloric utilization. Attia points out some of them in the video but there are many others as well. This is valuable information as it allows people to plan when they eat and what they eat to improve overall body condition and maintain health. You really can alter caloric utilization if you understand the science.

From: Woods Walker
03-Aug-18
X-2 Henry. Yes, there is the "fine print" but the core of the issue is just as you said. 2+2=4.

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
WW, The biochemical components are not "fine print." That's the point. More like the primary objective. The thermogenic component will not work without solving for the biochemical issues first. That's why the eat less/move more model is a universal failure.

From: Woods Walker
03-Aug-18
Sorry, I don't buy it. I've been feeding animals my whole life and I know what my eyes tell me. And maybe for you they're not fine print, but for the average person they most certainly are, as we have no idea of what you're talking about. Once again, 2+2=4.

From: Crusader dad
03-Aug-18
My wife was a big girl growing up. 186lbs in 6th grade. By the time I met her in 9th grade she'd gotten all the way down to 130. Then I got her pregnant and she got big again, 236lbs when my second son was born.

She's now a healthy 140 and eats exactly the same things we do. She keeps the weight off with daily exercise and portion control. It's really that simple. Eat what you want but don't eat seven servings at once. Exercise. That's it.

Fortunately I'm the opposite and can eat anything I want and as much as I want. My exercise comes from my job and I've been the perfect 180lbs for years.

03-Aug-18
IOwl, the ketogenic diet seems to be the best way to live to me.

I hit the wall way too quickly when I try to stay in ketosis so I do eat more carbs at supper to sustain my work. I sit a lot at work interspersed with such things as a 100-200 yard dash including 60 feet vertical of stairs carrying 35 pounds. Some days I just walk a lot.

Funny but my workouts are not long enough or strenuous enough all by themselves to worry over except that I do them after a 12.5 hour workday. In the gym I usually set up three excersizes and do 3-4 supersets of each 3-4 times a week. Also, I do alternate push-ups and pull-ups every day at home in the morning.

My physical demands are all over the board but my weight stays pretty good. I wouldnt mind carrying a few more pounds of muscle but dont have the time to do any more in the gym.

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
Crusader Dad, that anecdote does not dispel the biochemical component. It just means your wife can maintain on her current substrates of energy. But Attia agrees.

WW, speaking of animals, what do you feed them to fatten them up for market?

Spike, I'm the first to admit this stuff is highly individualistic. But the macros Pig Doc alluded to have to be addressed first - which it seems you are doing. You are certainly well aware.

03-Aug-18
Owl, Obesity is a modern world phenomenon, correct?

150 years ago people were probably not SITTING around discussing weight issues.

Two things changed since then. First, a food supply that is plentiful, convenient and dependable at a level above what is required to sustain us, albeit there are still distribution challenges geographically on occasion.

Second, modern convenient life styles have made the majority of us more lethargic.

Body chemistry, the micros you speak of etc. are all contributing factors, but I am still stuck on the input/output being the main component. I remain impressed, but unconvinced.

Maybe I am just trying to cover my hotdog guilt;)

From: Jim in Ohio
03-Aug-18
I have been eating all I want of anything I like all my life and just like my dad, grandpa, and great grandpa, I never gain any weight. It has to be in our genes.

From: Jim in Ohio
03-Aug-18

Jim in Ohio's embedded Photo
Jim in Ohio's embedded Photo
Jim in Ohio's embedded Photo
Here we are at our wedding, I weighed about 20 pounds less.
Jim in Ohio's embedded Photo
Here we are at our wedding, I weighed about 20 pounds less.
Here I am dancing with my wife at our 54th wedding anniversary party.

From: Brotsky
03-Aug-18
Saying 200 calories of Skittles and 200 Calories of Almonds are net/net the same thing is like saying placing $200 in an interest bearing account and $200 in the stock market will result in the same net return because they are both "investing".

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
Brotsky, it’s not. It is an overstatement so gross as to be utterly false.

If calories in/out was the primary driver of fat tissue, why didn’t my older brother get fat as a kid. He was a vacuum. It was nothing for him to eat a large pizza and wash it down will whole milk and cookie dough. He ate like that everyday. Yet, he didn’t grow out at all. Skinny as a rail. But he put on a foot of height in about 2 years. Now that he is middle aged, he’ll put on fat just looking at the desert table. If you ponder the difference and have the right answer, then you have identified the primary catalysts in the equation. It’s true when we’re teenagers and it’s true as adults.

From: HA/KS
03-Aug-18
Owl, it is still a matter of how many calories your body has available and what it does with them.

There is no way around that.

If you have any experience with livestock, you know about feed/gain ratios. Livestock have been selectively bred to gain more weight on the same amount of feed. This reduces production costs.

Some cows are known as "hard keepers." They consume the same amount of feed but stay skinny. That trait has been selectively bred out.

People from areas with a long history of food shortages (often islands) tend to gain weight more easily because they have the genes to survive on fewer calories. The "hard keepers" of these populations were weeded out by starvation long ago.

There can be science behind what you are saying, but it is still a matter of calories in and calories out.

From: Trax
03-Aug-18
You guys are converting me. Two pieces of cheese stuffed with braunschweiger in between for the main course for lunch, almonds and green olives, and banana for desert. Banana banned because of glycemic value? For breakfast it was 3 eggs and a small warmed up leftover rib-eye from the weekend. 50-40-10 is not possible for me, but I'll try getting close. For a while anyway... I'm in good shape but not what I was 10 years ago and I could use a bit more energy.

From: Brotsky
03-Aug-18
Trax, a couple of very important things to consider initially starting out on that type of diet:

1. Make sure you drink ton's of water. You will dehydrate more easily. Also insure your electrolyte intake is good otherwise you will feel like crap.

2. It will take your body awhile to adjust, a few days to a week or more. The less carbs you eat the faster you will get there. Once your body becomes "fat adjusted" you'll feel great, have more energy, better cognitive abilities, won't feel as hungry, etc. I actually force myself to eat now to meet my macros for the day. I focus more on protein and eat less fat as long as you keep it balanced. A guy that really knows nutrition told me that protein is always the goal, fat is just the lever to keep you feeling full.

03-Aug-18
obviously Jim is a hard keeper.....seems like I very likely am one too.....although I would slowly get fat if I stopped working out. All I know is that dumb, fat, and ugly is no way to go through life.......and I'm already dumb and ugly. I cannot let myself get fat.

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
Goodness, HA, everything you wrote proves my point better than I could.

From: slade
03-Aug-18
But those are cows.....hehehehehe

03-Aug-18
Henry,

I drew the same conclusion Owl did from what you posted. It's more than calories in and out or the livestock would have the same results.

From: Trax
03-Aug-18
That's makes sense Brotsky, will do. Do you calculate all carbs, like fruit into the mix?

From: Will
03-Aug-18
The ironic part of all of this, is that it's largely true - all of this thread. The physics of it all are real, IE, calories do play a role. For example, does IF work via mystical metabolic re-setting, or does it reduce your energy intake for a period of time thus resulting in weight loss? We know that lower energy intake (even from a primarily plant based diet) has a metabolic "resetting" effect, so perhaps it's just the lower total energy intake.

Many folks shifting to a "keto" approach do so from an excessive intake approach. They have been eating to much food for months, years, decades, then suddenly make a huge shift in lifestyle, and eat significantly fewer calories - bingo, weight loss.

Do types of calories matter? Yes. There have been some studies pointing out micro nutrients may play a role in satiety for example... Not to mention common sense, do you eat lots of food that is basically just energy supply or food that provides all the components you need - not just Fat, Pro, Carb? Does it make sense to get your 2500 calories a day from all donuts and ice cream, or salads, venison, eggs, cheese, fruits, tubers, legumes, grains, etc?

You dont need to understand nutritional biochemistry or human physiology to answer that question.

Having said that, it's a super allostatic system. It's not a toggle or simple homeostatic loop. It's an evolving system which varies in response to myriad inputs to seek stability through modulation. It's (we) are not "stable". We just operate within a range of parameters seeking a relatively standard operating platform relative to the experiences we are encountering.

Can keto work great. Yes. Can work great for some folks. Can a balanced diet work great. Yes. Can a higher carb diet work great. Yes. Are carbs optional? No. Do we absolutely have to have big quantities, no. But find a human who never eats any form of plants and you have found a rare human - outside Inuits and the Masi, maybe a few other tribal folks. Then again, none of them worry about being Keto, they just eat what they have. If a time of year occurs when they can eat more plants, they do. There in lies what gets me with the "carbs are not essential" line of thinking, every plant is carbohydrate, so sure, we can supply energy and building blocks in general, but it's definitely a limiter on what we can do if we cant eat plants.

Is Keto adaptable? Think about human beings and our success. Like Coyotes, black bears, etc., one reason we were so darn successful as a species in every environment is that we can practically eat any and everything. Need to eat a near vegan diet in a given climate/region - no problem, we humans can do it and thrive. Need to eat a near keto diet in a given climate/region - no problem, we humans can do it and thrive.

We are amazingly adaptable animals.

End point to me, is to 1.) Eat in a way you enjoy - otherwise you wont sustain it and it wont work (if you only enjoy eating donuts and icecream, change, wont be easy, but find a way that follows the next steps that you can enjoy); 2.) Eat minimally processed foods and as much variety as fits for you (that's harder for restrictive folks like Keto or Vegan, less hard for omnivores who are more moderation focused); 3.) Be active, consistently - lift heavy things and put them down repeatedly, run, bike, swim, ski, rock climb, take zumba, just be active; 4.) if you want to get leaner, try learning what portions look like within your current style of eating before going into another dietary pattern (the most "user" friendly examples of this, are the hand system that Precision Nutrition has put together. That's a great group of folks, they do awesome work and their info is worth a read). Number 4 is important because it's really easy to think: I know how much energy I'm eating. Using a system that fits you, and does not require a scale etc helps calibrate what you are doing a lot.

Dietary habits are not either or. There is a ton of gray, and many good options. Really just comes down to what works psychologically and physically for you.

03-Aug-18
Will. That’s the first post of yours I can say I 100% agree with. Well stated. Well everything. Good job man.

From: Brotsky
03-Aug-18
Trax, yes, all carbs. You calculate net carbs though which are total carbs minus dietary fiber to come up with your total carbs for whatever you are eating. That is in relation to Will's post, not all carbs are bad and we need them to survive. Specifically the kind that come from green leafy plants and vegetables. We can eat a lot of these since they have high dietary fiber which nets out their carb content. You basically want to avoid any carb that come from sugar. Another thing to stay away from is most types of artificial sweeteners as they cause an insulin response in the body even though they have zero calories. Truvia (erythritol) is one that is generally okay as it does not trigger that response.

From: Trax
03-Aug-18
Stevia is the only added sweetener I use at times, and not often. I love honey, but have always limited that and now more so. My main issue is going to be bread, pasta, beer, and my occasional oatmeal or breakfast cereal (Special K with the strawberry's is bank). My wife makes all these summer pasta dishes I love, the Mediterranean one with the olives and vinaigrette dressing my favorite. Not sure how long I can hang on. I'll have to find good substitutes... Also, it must be work to constantly be calculating carb values, I'll have to brush up on that.

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
Looks like a lot folks agree in principle just not order of magnitude. Perhaps.

Trax, fwiw, I stick with fibrous vegetables and do not count carbs. I don't count anything. Satiety is my check valve. I never had that on a high carb diet. I'll stick with the biochemical model of fueling.

From: Woods Walker
03-Aug-18
Owl: Not talking about animals sold for meat, but horses and hunting dogs.

From: HA/KS
03-Aug-18
Owl, my point still stands. If you consume more than you use/get rid of you gain weight.

If you consume less than you use/get rid of you lose weight.

There is no way around that basic fact.

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
On that point, WW, I have a Blackmouth Cur that you can’t force an ounce on his body any time of the year. Totally self-regulating. I mean he’s really smart but I haven’t caught him counting his calories.

From: Will
03-Aug-18
WV - Ha, next thing I know your going to consider voting Democrat :) he he he. All good man, glad you enjoyed the ideas.

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
HA, do you wear glasses? If so, have you ever wandered around the house looking for your glasses only to realize you were wearing them all the time? Happens to us all. You're doing that now. You absolutely get it. You just don't recognize that you get it.

From: Owl
03-Aug-18
BTW, WW, it does not matter what kind of animal you are citing. The livestock example validates my contention. Corn, grains and exogenous hormones to "fatten up." Controlled maladaptation. That's what western culture is doing to itself long term.

From: HA/KS
03-Aug-18
Owl, you agree that it comes down to the equation input-output = gain or loss?

From: ben h
03-Aug-18
HA, I think you nailed it a few posts ago. There's another component called "system losses" that we refer to in the power generation business. From your prior post "Some cows are known as "hard keepers." They consume the same amount of feed but stay skinny." We'd call them inefficient generators, meaning you put more into them than you get out and throughout a variety of mechanisms it's just lost. That's the entire point of this post IMO. Some people can eat 5,000 calories a day and lose 4,000 of them taking a nap and the other 1,000 surfing the internet. They're what you call "hard keepers", others consume 3,000 calories and burn a much smaller % doing nothing and need to manually work the rest off otherwise they'll get fat (you made that point and I agree). I think it's input + system losses - manual work = 0 to stay the same weight. Everyone on this site knows people with high system losses that it basically doesn't matter how much they eat or how much they work and it doesn't make any appreciable difference on their end weight and the exact opposite where people are extremely conscious of what they eat, yet still struggle to keep off weight even with a decent amount of exercise.

From: Bownarrow
04-Aug-18
Forget weight and waist size. You are thinking about being "fat" or "skinny" as good vs. bad. IMO that is framing the conversation in a misguided light. It's about health, happiness and longevity. Walk, be moderate, be committed to family and your God. www.bluezones.com

From: Hackbow
04-Aug-18
If weight gain and loss is as simple as input & output, why do different breeds of cattle gain weight at different rates? Why do ranchers producing meat animals cull the individuals that don't get to market weight as quickly from their breeding programs? Why do they create hybrids?

The fact that those who are in the business of bringing more pounds of meat to market faster breed specifically for ever-increasing weight gain proves that caloric intake is not the only factor. If it was, all breeds would gain at the same rate and efficiencies. The rancher would only need to choose which animals he like looking at the most.

We currently value lean meat in the marketplace, but prior to the 1960's, domestic meat production focused on how much fat was on the butchered animal. The breeders of that time period worked just as diligently to find the genetic traits that led to greater fat accumulation. All breeds, and individuals within those breeds, were/are not created equal, physiologically speaking. The same applies today with farm animals and people alike.

From: Owl
04-Aug-18
"Owl, you agree that it comes down to the equation input-output = gain or loss?"

- Absolutely not. But, then, neither do you judging by your livestock example. You're making my argument without recognizing it, which tells me, maybe, you view genetics as a rather 2 dimensional inevitability. It's not. Think of metabolic process genetics like a series of locks. If you don't present the "correct" key (epigenetics), you don't unlock the genetic coding. If you do, you will. For instance someone with a genetic predisposition to get T2 diabetes can avoid or "cure" it with correct diet composition.

From: Crusader dad
04-Aug-18
I agree that genetics plays a role in weight. I disagree that it can't be manipulated by strict portion control and exercise. Again I'll use my wife as my example. She's genetically predisposed to be fat. How does she combat that? Hour long workouts and portion control. It really is that simpl. When output >input you lose weight. Instead of sitting on your ass with a bag of chips complaining about being fat and blaming genetics while you watch tv get on the elliptical. Nothing beats exercise and portion control. I see it every day in my own house and have seen it for the last 20 years.

From: Woods Walker
04-Aug-18
2+2=4. Always has been.

04-Aug-18
Think of bucks and their weight loss during the rut. Very active, little intake.

Think of their racks. Nutrition plays a role, but so does genetics.

Owl, maybe it is much more complex? How do we not turn the key for cancer? I know skinny, in shape, proper diet controlled guys that still fight T2. Age is our common "vice".

Interesting discussion.

04-Aug-18

Spike Bull 's Link
Epigenetics shows that our genes are turned on and off, and therefore altered, by factors that we can control to a degree.

From: Owl
04-Aug-18
Crusader Dad, tell me why a teenage boy can inhale food at a prodigious rate and not gain fat but the exact same person packs on fat 25 years later in life. Calories in/out won’t explain it.

BTW, the person sitting in their butt eating a bag of chips is encoding information that tells their body to both store fat and sit on its butt. Telling that person to “just eat less chips “ is tantamount to telling a heroine addict to get clean by taking smaller doses of junk 3-5 times a day. The better approach would be to avoid the heroine altogether.

You “ 2+2” folks don’t realize you are living between the parentheses of a bigger equation.

04-Aug-18

Spike Bull 's Link

From: Woods Walker
04-Aug-18
2+2 works for me. And the end result is the same.

04-Aug-18

Spike Bull 's Link
Epigenetics and body composition/weight.

04-Aug-18
Owl,

I bet the teenager burns a lot more calories.

I ran 8-12 miles a day for years until I got my first management/office position. Weight started going on immediately.

From: Owl
04-Aug-18
No. He spent his calories differently. Back to partitioning. Think growth hormone and/ or absence thereof.

From: Owl
04-Aug-18
Really like that first link on epigenetics Spike. I’ll get to the others tomorrow when I’m laying on the couch burning fat. :)

From: Rocky
04-Aug-18
People may laugh but you can lay on the couch and burn fat.

The Rock

From: Owl
04-Aug-18
True Rocky. Studies of indigenous people have revealed some of those folks are very sedentary, vigorous and very lean. Oddly enough, they don’t adhere to the government RDAs for carbohydrate fueling. But they’ll eat the “whole pig” - from the rooter to the tooter. lol

04-Aug-18
I could have lived without than image my entire life! Lol.

04-Aug-18
Ahhhhhh, tomorrow! SUNDAY! I might also finally get a chance to lay around and burn some, too!

Glad you liked it, hope you like the next one. That doc who explains our evolution as meat eaters covers it well.

From: Will
04-Aug-18

Will's embedded Photo
Will's embedded Photo
Actually, laying on the couch you are burning mostly fat, even unfit, unhealthy, twinkie mainlining folks, while sitting or laying down, are burning more fat for energy than anything else...

Start working harder and the equation changes. Does diet influence substrate utilization? Yes. Does fitness though? YES. This pic is from a presentation I do occasionally. It's an N=1, which I see repeated... but again, it's an N=1. It's based on the R value from VO2 testing I did over several years in the 90's. I chose 150bpm to approximate a standard stress level. It was a level I could have ridden for 4-6 hours no problems asked over the last few years of data listed. R (RQ in this case) value is a marker of substrate use. 1 or higher = mostly carbohydrate being used as fuel, .7 (or below) = mostly fats. At max most folks who are used to working hard and can tolerate some effort will go 1.1~ ish... super fit folks at rest will be below the .7. This is just a ratio of the oxygen and CO2 going in and coming out while you breathe. More carbs burning, more CO2 comes out, which is part of why we breathe harder when we exercise or exert ourselves.

Point of the pic... That's the 90's. "cutting edge" sports nutrition was erring to high carb diets as a focus. there were years there where I was eating 70% carbs and aiming for 10-20% fat. How in the heck was I able to burn more fat while training if I was eating so many carbs? Fitness. I got aerobically fitter (you can see that with higher VO2 readings) and thus, was better able to burn fat.

Could I have increased the amount of fat I burned had I used a more balanced or a low carb diet instead?

Yes.

Would that NEGATIVELY impact my capacity to metabolize carbohydrate down the road, even short term? Yes, there is evidence for that. In a very acute sense, you reduce ability to metabolize carb's as well when you are not eating them. That's not a big issue, unless you are an endurance athlete who competes in a variant of endurance sport where speed still matters.

I go back to my last post. You can burn fat really well on a variety of diets. You probably are not doing it best if you eat super high carb... But maximizing that ability may not be ideal for some folks...

Observation suggests the folks best suited to low carb/Keto style diets are 1.) those who like it; 2.) those with a current med history of diabetes/dislipidemia; 3.) those with a family history of diabetes/dislipidemia; 4.) those who live a fairly sedentary life; 5.) those who do very long very steady endurance activities (but this one is highly debatable) which are rarely very intense in an acute sense.

My data may be an outlier. There are elite ultra distance folks doing Keto diets that do great. Are they great on those diets because the diet is magic or because they have a huge preponderance of slow twitch muscle fiber and thus a very large aerobic ability to metabolize those fats, or perhaps because they were born with better than normal efficiency?

I've seen a lot of folks have their best 100 milers with zero GI issues doing 300-400 calories per hour while running of all carb. I've seen folks blow current scientific evidence sky high and do 600-800 calories of carbs an hour during 100 mile mtb races and rip - some of those are folks with aerobic powers in the 80's (VO2mx) who would be metabolizing 1.5-2X more fat sitting hear reading this than any of us given the astonishing aerobic fitness they have built over years.

Keto can work awesome. So can other diets. Energy matters - so does quality - of diet. How much and the type of activity you do plays a big role in how you work and operate. We are just so dang adaptable, that almost anything can work to help use be well - outside being sedentary and eating junk food. Cant fix those last two, they are killers.

From: Pig Doc
04-Aug-18
All of you 2+2=4 guys are ignoring the hormonal effects of insulin, glucagon, cortisol, grehlin, HGH, thyroid hormone, adrenaline, estrogen, progesterone and others. It's not as simple as 2+2=4. Metabolism is complex.

From: Rocky
04-Aug-18
You can lay on the sofa, sleep for hours on end, and burn fat for a longer period of time, without the aid of a diet, and as as a matter of fact, eating everything and anything you like and as much as you like. This is not a secret.

The Rock

From: Woods Walker
04-Aug-18
Well....I'm a simple man, and 2+2=4 works for me.

From: Pig Doc
04-Aug-18
Ignorance is bliss. And yes, you are simple.

From: NvaGvUp
04-Aug-18
Hackbow,

What's weight lifting got to do with hunting and esp. with hunting the high country?

Answer: Nothing!

Cardio and attitude determine your abilities to hunt in the high country.

Cardio fitness also is without question the #1 factor in maintaining great stamina, heart rate and blood pressure.

I'll be 70 in five weeks. Yet my resting heary rate is 52 bpm, my average BP is 118/78 or thereaboutsand when I did a stress echo cardiogram a few weeks ago, I basically destroyed the treadmill and the expectations f the ladies who gave me the test.

I never get sick, not even a cold, and even at my age, several sheep and high mountain elk guides and outfitters have been astonished with my fitness, despite my age.

From: Pig Doc
04-Aug-18
How's the vertigo?

From: Owl
04-Aug-18
Here's an interesting concept: people are not getting fat because they eat too much. They eat too much because they are getting fat. I believe that is Gary Taubes... Again with epigenetic "bad information" and partitioning. The same principle that makes the teenage boy inhale food to put on a foot of height is the same dynamic that causes a 500 pound man to sit on his couch and gorge on junk food. Different hormones, different processes and tissue "building."

The carb craze is really recent. While we can utilize them, it makes sense that they may cause maladaptations in most, if not, all human metabolisms. Certainly processed foods and junk food.

From: JTV
04-Aug-18

JTV's Link
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/04/vegans-and-vegetarians-may-think-re-eating-healthy-re-not.html

From: Will
04-Aug-18

Will's Link
Owl, this hit my feed today, beat worm hole to explore around ketosis diets.

From: HA/KS
05-Aug-18
Owl, many things can influence what your body does with the calories you take in, but in the end, calories that are not used or disposed of become gained weight.

You are denying gravity because helium balloons don't immediately fall to the earth.

Some calories are not digested, some are burned as energy, some are used to build muscle or fat. Each body does this in its own way (and the process can change), but it still happens.

ANY calorie that is not disposed of becomes muscle or fat. Weight goes up.

If more calories are used than are taken in, then muscle or fat is used as the energy source and weight goes down.

You can obfuscate all you want, but the facts remain.

From: Owl
05-Aug-18
Thanks Will. I've read similar things, too. If true, I imagine it's because the ketogenic diet is an ancestral WOE and it best allows human genetic expression. Perhaps, it also allows the gut microbiome to better function, as well. I can't say for sure but lots of folks credit keto for correcting all sorts of problems. For me, there was a basketful of benefits and interestingly enough, the first thing it corrected was my insomnia. Ever since I went low carb, I sleep like a rock and dream almost every night. Vivid, memorable dreams. That was not the case previously. "Dream sleep" was the exception rather than the rule.

Ha, there you go again, my friend.

From: HA/KS
05-Aug-18
Remembering your dreams just means that you woke up. Research shows that people who remember their dreams wake up during the night and those who don't remember their dreams wake up less. Everybody dreams every time they actually sleep.

From: Owl
06-Aug-18
HA, we're destined to disagree on this thread. lol

From: HA/KS
06-Aug-18
Owl, there so many people following fake medical, food, and nutrition science that we are in the second heyday of snake oil salesmen.

From: Trax
06-Aug-18
I have been doing great with this so far until yesterday when confronted with premium quality ice cream in a waffle cone. Lost that battle....

From: Owl
06-Aug-18
I agree HA but I bet you and I would not identify the same folks as the snake oil salesmen. For one, I consider sugar nothing more than a chronic toxin. Low grade opiate. And the “2+2” doxology only slightly better.

From: HA/KS
06-Aug-18
Thermodynamics, Owl. It's a law, not a theory.

From: Owl
06-Aug-18
Gravity is a law, too. I wouldn’t address biochemical processes with it, though.

From: HA/KS
06-Aug-18
Owl, never heard of geotropism?

From: Owl
07-Aug-18
Yes and I can't wait to read your explanation of how gravity has caused societal body weight crisis.

From: HA/KS
07-Aug-18
"I wouldn’t address biochemical processes with it, though."

"I can't wait to read your explanation of how gravity has caused societal body weight crisis."

Not what I said, is it?

07-Aug-18
Knowing some scientific vocabulary is not the same as understanding processes.

You brought it up, I would like an explanation as well.

From: Brotsky
07-Aug-18
Owl, you'll never convince these guys. Some people want to understand a healthier way of living and some don't. Oh well.....

From: Owl
07-Aug-18
Brotsky, In my conversations, I find people have really emotional (over-emotional) attachments to food. And, that makes sense, really.

HA, if it is not germane to the topic, why mention it?

07-Aug-18
Owl,

ceteris paribus, if I maintain my body weight because my daily caloric intake is 2500, and I burn exactly 2500 daily, will I lose weight if I maintain the same activity level but cut my intake to 2000 calories?

Assume the calories are the same ratios as before, i.e. same fat, carb, fiber, complex sugars, protein etc.

I would assume yes, and I think that is what is confusing

From: Hackbow
07-Aug-18
HfW,

According to the BMR calculations detailed on www.medicalnewstoday.com, I need 3721 calories per day to maintain my current weight. When I was still consuming carbs in bread, pasta, fruit and beer, my caloric intake trying to lose weight was roughly 2500-3000 per day. Even if I averaged 3000/day, I should have been losing 1 pound every 5 days (700 cal x 5 days = 3500 cal). Instead, I gained weight.

In the last 3-4 months I have phased out bread, pasta, fruit and beer (that hurt). I consume somewhere between 3500-5000 calories per day. I've lost 36 lbs as of this morning. Not a thing has changed in my physical activity - only my diet.

My experience cannot be possible if the thermogenic equation is the ONLY thing that matters. In other words something else is going on to influence the outcome. Hence, ceteris paribus, my personal metabolism, makeup and/or type of foods ingested are at least partially responsible for the rate at which I gain or lose weight. Independent of the # of calories consumed.

Interestingly, that seemed to be Owl's intent in posting Dr. Attia's interview with Rogan. No one has claimed the thermogenic equation isn't valid or that thermodynamic law has somehow been magically suspended. However, there is more than ample evidence for additional and influencing variables, including hormonal factors.

I bet the 2+2 crowd still trusts the original government supplied food pyramid too.

From: Owl
07-Aug-18
Hackbow nailed it. Without knowing the relative metabolic health of the individual, I don’t know what the deficit would yield. Short term you’d create a loss in lean mass, fat and water proportionate to the degree to which your body is optimized (both genetically and epigenetically) to preserve lean tissue. Then your body would down regulate and you’d stall. Or you could chase that rabbit all the way to celery and water once a day for the rest of your life...which would be severely curtailed.

From: Owl
07-Aug-18
Another “thermogenic” anecdote: in ‘09, I was training for a lion hunt - quite overweight. For months, I spent every evening walking on a treadmill with a loaded pack. By the time I got to AZ I was very capable of hiking through rim country all day but had not lost a freaking pound. It was crazy.

My body type is endomorphic. I can gain or lose relatively easily and all my life I have been able to create short term losses whenever motivated. At 38, that ceased to be the case.

07-Aug-18
Thanks gentlemen, that was the point I was hoping you could make, and I hope it makes it clearer for some of us.

From: Hackbow
07-Aug-18
"What's weight lifting got to do with hunting and esp. with hunting the high country?"

Kyle, weightlifting has little to do with hunting the high country, in and of itself. And quite honestly, neither does being fat and never having run a 5K, let alone a marathon - again, in and of itself. Cardio and strength can both help immensely, especially the cardio. But I have managed to live out of my pack for up to 18 days without coming close to ideal BMI or running to train. I'm headed into the backcountry for 11 or 12 days in just a few weeks and I haven't run in years.

My suggestion that we meet in the mountains, pretend to hold contests in which each of us would completely outdo the other, then have a good drink together was simply a way to say we should get together 1) in the mountains, since we both love them, 2) to enjoy a great drink together, since we both sip on the good stuff from time to time, and 3) to finally meet and share stories. Don't let your panties get so bunched up. ;o)

From: Pig Doc
07-Aug-18
"Thermodynamics, Owl. It's a law, not a theory."

We are talking about humans, not power plants. In humans and animals thermodynamics only pertains to Gross Energy. Gross energy minus fecal energy loss is Digestible Energy. Digestible Energy minus urinary and gas losses is Metabolizable Energy. Metabolizable Energy minus heat increment is Net Energy, which is the energy actually available for maintenance and productive functions. Excess NE above needs for maintenance and productive functions is turned in adipose tissue and there is additional energy loss in that process. Net Energy is typically 50-60% of Gross Energy. Take out another 20% for maintenance and less than 40% of Gross Energy (thermodynamic energy) is available for growth and other productive functions. In other words, thermodynamics is largely meaningless in human caloric utilization.

From: HA/KS
07-Aug-18
"I've lost 36 lbs as of this morning. "

Which means that you have disposed of more calories than you consumed.

From: NvaGvUp
07-Aug-18
If you are fat, it's 100% because of the choices you've made.

Anything else is just an excuse for making those bad choices.

From: Rocky
07-Aug-18
Kyle,

Not always.

The Rock

From: Pig Doc
07-Aug-18
HA, you need to stick to 4th grade math or whatever it is you teach. You are clueless on this subject.

From: HA/KS
07-Aug-18
Doc, I have posted nothing on this thread that is not true.

From: Owl
08-Aug-18
"Doc, I have posted nothing on this thread that is not true."

-Perhaps, but repeatedly chiming in with unrelated "truths" serves what virtue to you? It is contextual nonsense.

From: Bowbender
08-Aug-18

Bowbender's Link
I've always been a CICO & exercise guy. It's always worked. For me. Reading thru this thread piqued my interest and came across this article. Definitely will look into this a little more.

08-Aug-18
Funny observation from your link, Bowbender, unrelated to diet but....this quote reminded me of someone here, "The CICO people are Fregley. He is the character in ‘Diary of a Wimpy Kid’ who is the unpopular kid who wants desperately to be liked."

That almost looks like Freeglee!

From: bigswivle
08-Aug-18
Who the hell gives up fruit and beer? That sounds terrible

From: Owl
08-Aug-18
"Who the hell gives up fruit and beer? That sounds terrible"

I'll answer with what I recently shared with another: I have no more cravings for junk food or carb sources. I look at old trigger foods like a dog looks a t a Lamborghini. The dog has no intrinsic fascination with a Lamborghini; it's just another tire to piss on. I can't explain it better than that. I intellectually know I love all the crappy foods (especially beer!!) but I just can't muster any particular interest in them. So, I want for nothing I don't give myself. That is a completely different phenomenon from where I have been all my life.

From: Owl
08-Aug-18
The thermogenic model of adiposity is like the collectivist model of politics and economics. It’s inherently broken, never addresses the root problem(s) and, over time, works for increasingly fewer people. But, there will always be Cold War Stalinists that insist the problem is that people just have not “bought in” enough to be good comrades.

From: Brotsky
08-Aug-18
"Who the hell gives up fruit and beer? That sounds terrible"

The fruit part really sucks, but whiskey easily replaces the beer :-) The thing that kills me is not having ice cream! I love ice cream and no mas for me. Very sad.

From: Owl
08-Aug-18
My latest analogy may seem a little rough but the CICO model is exceptionally pernicious.

From: shiloh
08-Aug-18
yep.......I love ice cream too!! We make a lot of homemade ice cream in the summer time and it is irresistible. My dad always says "anything in moderation is ok except messing with the neighbors wife"!!

From: Pig Doc
08-Aug-18
"Doc, I have posted nothing on this thread that is not true."

Actually most of what you have posted here is just plain wrong and/or off topic. Trying to relate human nutrition and thermodynamics, which you did, is comically ignorant. Humans and animals handle energy a bit differently than coal-fired power plants. I have MS and PhD degrees in animal nutrition and 35 years experience as a nutritionist so I know a bit about this topic. Keep bringing it. It's quite entertaining.

From: Owl
08-Aug-18
Nice article, Bowbender.

From: HA/KS
08-Aug-18
"I have MS and PhD degrees in animal nutrition and 35 years experience as a nutritionist so I know a bit about this topic. "

I have neither and never claimed to. I also never questioned your expertise on the topic.

From: Pig Doc
08-Aug-18
I'm questioning yours.

From: Owl
10-Aug-18

Sorry, these videos are longer than the average attention span but are potentially life altering for giving the proper perspective on evolution and nutrition. This is an expose' on our guts compared to our supposed "closest ancestors." Interestingly, they are hind gut digesters(fermenters) whereas we are not. We need to eat meat, fat, organs and marrow. This is good news for bowhunters.:)

10-Aug-18
Best thing this whole “get off the carb” phase did for me back in 2013 was that I started making my own bacon. I buy the pork bellies from Costco, cure them myself then smoke, slice, freeze and enjoy. Usually do 40-50# at a time and I’m now down to my last 3#, so it’s time to think about starting up a new batch.

From: Owl
10-Aug-18
Good tip, Mike

From: gflight
10-Aug-18
"-Perhaps, but repeatedly chiming in with unrelated "truths" serves what virtue to you? It is contextual nonsense."

Maybe he wants to compare things he knows to get a better understanding of what he doesn't know in order to learn?

Wrong contributer quoted, edited.

From: gflight
10-Aug-18
Another question. How much "fat" should we retain in case we get sick? Should we be slightly overweight for better health?

From: Owl
10-Aug-18
gflight, you're quoting me not PigDoc.

10-Aug-18

Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Just took this picture. Smells like heaven in my shop right now. Two pieces of this every morning with 3 eggs fried up in the grease the bacon leaves in the pan.

10-Aug-18

Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Mike the Carpenter's embedded Photo
Cracked a yolk, so decided to scramble them today.

From: Joey Ward
10-Aug-18
Mike, those are the driest looking scrambled eggs I've ever seen.

No milk, eh?

;-)

10-Aug-18
Milk’s made for cows...well at least cow milk is ;-)

From: Joey Ward
10-Aug-18
Mike, lots of southerners mix a little milk in when they whip eggs for scramblin'. And not much elbow grease when we wisk it in. Makes the eggs light and fluffy.

And a little bacon grease when we fry 'em. Sunny side up. :-)

I've got a supplier for duck eggs this summer. REALLY enjoy those. They fluff baked goods up way better than any chicken egg. :-)

If you get a chance, you should try a few.

10-Aug-18
1/2 of me is from Arkansas, so I know quite a bit about “Southern” cooking. One of the Sous Chef’s here mixes in sour cream and when I used to eat dairy, I swore they were the best eggs I ever ate. So bacon grease will do for now.

One of our HVAC guys used to bring me duck eggs. Loved them more than chicken eggs. Then he got tired of how big a mess the ducks made of his coup, so he brought me in a dog crate full of big white ducks. I took the entire flock on a camping trip with us, and the stories I have about that adventure would have you guys peeing yourselves.

From: Joey Ward
10-Aug-18
Mike, always nice to read about how much we all have in common than we don't. :-)

It's good food for the soul.

From: Owl
10-Aug-18
Duck fat is good to fry with as well.

From: Hackbow
10-Aug-18
Highly recommend watching Owl's posted video above. Force yourself to get past the dryness and pay attention to the info. Also, there is a part in the middle where it shows various animals eating a broad range of food types. It runs without comment from 16:30 to 25:39. Watch a few minutes for context and then fast forward.

Thanks for posting Owl.

I enjoy duck fat. Prior to eating keto, one of my favorite restaurant dishes was duck breast served over duck fat fried rice. I may try it over roasted cauliflower rice.

From: Owl
10-Aug-18
Yeah, Hackbow, that video compilation around minute 16 was crazy. Dude was a bit dry, though. Great data to shut down any arguments that we are supposed to be vegetarians, too.

11-Aug-18

Spike Bull 's Link
Love these hot juicy scrambles and uncured bacon!

From: Owl
11-Aug-18
I've always removed my eggs from heat wet. I've never seen the transferring back and forth like he did. The best thing he did with the toast was throw the first piece away.;)

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