Summit Treestands
ATA has second thoughts about Crossbows
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Contributors to this thread:
Redeye 06-Aug-18
JTV 06-Aug-18
Woods Walker 06-Aug-18
JTV 06-Aug-18
Thumper 07-Aug-18
Woods Walker 07-Aug-18
Mint 07-Aug-18
Bentstick81 07-Aug-18
BIG BEAR 07-Aug-18
Charlie Rehor 07-Aug-18
K Cummings 07-Aug-18
Missouribreaks 07-Aug-18
K Cummings 07-Aug-18
kentuckbowhnter 07-Aug-18
Glunt@work 07-Aug-18
Missouribreaks 07-Aug-18
JTV 07-Aug-18
K Cummings 07-Aug-18
MK111 07-Aug-18
MT in MO 07-Aug-18
longbeard 07-Aug-18
sleepyhunter 07-Aug-18
Bob H in NH 07-Aug-18
Joey Ward 07-Aug-18
Will 07-Aug-18
K Cummings 07-Aug-18
Rhody 07-Aug-18
K Cummings 07-Aug-18
Woods Walker 07-Aug-18
Shuteye 07-Aug-18
JTV 07-Aug-18
Missouribreaks 07-Aug-18
K Cummings 07-Aug-18
Bentstick81 07-Aug-18
sleepyhunter 07-Aug-18
Woods Walker 07-Aug-18
JL 08-Aug-18
Bentstick81 08-Aug-18
Woods Walker 08-Aug-18
From: Redeye
06-Aug-18

Redeye's Link
http://www.ezflipmags.com/Publications/ArrowTrade_Magazine/68/#p=4

click on the link Reigning in Crossbows

Arrowtrade has long seen the potential crossbows had to introduce non-archers to bowhunting and enable older bowhunters to keep in the field. Now, after attending the April ATA Board of Directors meeting, I will admit some reservations.

At that meeting, some board members were concerned that powerful new crossbows were far outpacing vertical bows in performance and would be difficult to consider as primitive weapons entitled to long seasons. The surprising data from the 2017 Wisconsin hunting season, during which crossbow hunters tagged more deer than vertical bow hunters for the first time in history, also drew a lot of attention from the board. Crossbows were just legalized for all Wisconsin deer hunters in 2014 and that is pretty dramatic evidence that modern, high-performance crossbows are easy to use and highly effective.

Comments from retailers and a distributor on the board also indicated anecdotal evidence that crossbows are not serving as a gateway to other forms of archery. Since little practice is needed to stay proficient with them, that can hurt sales of arrows, releases, sights, and many other accessories that retailers depend on to stay profitable.

The board voted 15-2 to study whether the ATA position statement on crossbows, adopted back in 2008, should now be revised. The existing statement reads, in part, "The ATA believes that crossbows are viable shooting and hunting equipment that provide opportunity for a segment of America's hunters and recreational shooters...The ATA leaves the seasons and regulation governing the use of crossbows for hunting to each state wildlife agency. ATA believes that when populations of wildlife, like deer, are overabundant, state agencies should make use of every type of hunting equipment to help control and manage those populations." A study group consisting of staff and board members has formed, has met once and is in the process of gathering data, Arrowtrade was told by the ATA early in June.

In the meantime, I would suggest major crossbow manufacturers declare a halt to the speed race. Speeds in excess of 400 fps and advertisements claiming the accuracy potential at 100 yards and beyond are only going to draw more negative attention from game departments. Nobody in the bowhunting industry will benefit if archery seasons are reduced as a result of the perception that crossbows are morphing into crossguns.

Major sports typically set equipment limitations, from the characteristics of golf balls to the types of engines used in NASCAR. The eight major manufacturers that sponsor the North American Crossbow Federation could consider a 400 fps limit: nothing to be advertised or warranted beyond that. Existing models that exceed that could be packaged with heavier arrows to fit within the new guidelines. With the speed limit in place, manufacturers could still innovate in ways to improve accuracy, comfort, reliability, and ease of use.

Setting these voluntary limits on crossbows would help them be viewed by the public and state game agencies as equipment that is not radically different in performance from a compound bow

-Arrowtrade, July 2018

From: JTV
06-Aug-18
just put the damn things in the gun seasons where the rest of the shoulder fired "tools" are ..

From: Woods Walker
06-Aug-18
The only problem with that is that crossbows aren't "fired" in any way, shape, or form. There's absolutely ZERO combustion that occurs, whether it'd be from gunpowder, or air. As far as function and physics go, they are a BOW. You may not like them, and that's your right. But don't call them something they're not.

From: JTV
06-Aug-18
smh .........

From: Thumper
07-Aug-18
Well, I told them this was going to happen, the real reason the NRA waned crossbows in archery season. FUBAR

From: Woods Walker
07-Aug-18
What did I say that wasn't true JTV???

From: Mint
07-Aug-18
I think crossbows are pretty cool but they don't belong in the archery season except for the disabled or elderly hunters.

From: Bentstick81
07-Aug-18
I know that Woods and myself have one thing we never did agree on, and that's crossbows. LOL But, it's OK that we don't agree. I have no problems with older or handicapped people using crossbows. I don't have this typed in their exact words, but it was something like this in the archery rules and regulations, said for years that; a person could not use any device that would keep the bow in the drawn position, when hunting deer. The DNR said it wasn't fair, to the deer. Now, it's fair to the deer?? How can that be?? I agree that getting drawn on a deer, without being detected, is the biggest challenge, when wanting to shoot a deer with a bow and arrow. If all you have to do is pull a trigger, on a bow that stays cocked for hours, so you don't have to go through the drawing process, when a deer is in range, to me, isn't bow hunting. JMO.

From: BIG BEAR
07-Aug-18
All that’s going to be a moot point here in Michigan starting this year when the DNR allows rifles in the early bow season to begin their plan of eradicating the deer because of CWD.

07-Aug-18
The ATA position you quoted above lead to wide spread acceptance of these weapons in archery season and now they want to put the Jeanie back in the bottle? Hopefully whomever approved that position in the pst is no longer on the board. Not very wise putting ATA members in harms way.

From: K Cummings
07-Aug-18
WW:

"What did I say that wasn't true JTV???

Nothing you said was untrue. That is why you aren't likely to get any sort of factual response, just an emotional one. Like them or not, agree with having them in the archery season or not, the fact that they are a "bow" is undeniable.

As to the original article, I found this part quite interesting:

" In the meantime, I would suggest major crossbow manufacturers declare a halt to the speed race. Speeds in excess of 400 fps and advertisements claiming the accuracy potential at 100 yards and beyond are only going to draw more negative attention from game departments. Nobody in the bowhunting industry will benefit if archery seasons are reduced as a result of the perception that crossbows are morphing into crossguns."

First, I doubt very much if game departments set regulations based on advertising and marketing claims of accuracy, power, and lethality. If those claims were to be believed, no bow would be legal, including longbows and recurves.

Second, arbitrarily setting speed limits doesn't really accomplish much. Just more feel good legislation IMHO. If a person wants 400fps, they can get there with their compound.

KPC

07-Aug-18
This should come as no surprise. So many on this board think crossbows are like the ones of yesteryear, what a joke. So many have given up bowhunting for crossbow hunting, hard to turn back now.

From: K Cummings
07-Aug-18
"So many on this board think crossbows are like the ones of yesteryear, what a joke."

Ironically, the same can be said about how compound bows compare to recurves and longbows of yesteryear. Or for that matter, even to other compounds from just 20 years ago. Heck, the same can be said about the size of deer herds compared to those of yesteryear.

Not a joke, just reality.

KPC

07-Aug-18
too late, the damage is done, cant put the genie back in the bottle. when you compromise your principles this is what you get.

From: Glunt@work
07-Aug-18
As crossbows grow in popularity it is definitely effecting archery shops. Shops rely on accessory sales, service, league nights and getting customers through the door to maintain their business. Crossbows don't spur accessory sales and pro shop visits like bows do, they don't generate the year-round shooting business and a family can share one or two instead of everyone needing a bow set up for themselves.

I worked in the archery industry for quite awhile. The impact on dealers was predictable. Whether crossbows are good, bad or neutral for hunting, as they replace bows it definitely is effecting the shops.

07-Aug-18
The damage was caused by able bodied hunters who use crossbows, enable others to use crossbows, and accept the use of crossbows for all during archery seasons. Nobody to blame but the accepting community of hunters who buy crossbows for themselves, their children, and others. Crossbow use should be limited to those who have certain disabilities.................. Too late is right, lol!!!!

From: JTV
07-Aug-18
they dont belong in archery seasons... I detest the able bodied hunter picking one up and thinking they are a BOWhunter.. traditional or compound, you have to work at it to become good and stay proficient... 10 minutes and a person is shooting a crossthingy ... the 400 fps with a average bow is not happening... sure, heavy draw weight, superlight weight arrow, 5 inch brace, its not an average hunting rig for every day BOWhunters..

Ive got stand locations to go trim for BOW season, see ya .. piss on the f'n crossbows ... have fun little girls ...

From: K Cummings
07-Aug-18
Like I said, when the argument goes from factual to emotional...it is usually lost (especially when personal attacks and name calling ensue).

The simple fact is, a crossbow meets the definition of a bow. Saying it doesn't can really only be argued on an emotional level. A selfbow is a bow. A longbow is a bow. A recurve bow is a bow. A compound bow is a bow. A crossbow is a bow.

Whatever a hunter chooses to use within the law is completely up to them.

I use a recurve. Have for decades. Have never owned or hunted with a crossbow nor do I have any desire to. Those who do have no impact on my experience.

As to the impact on the archery industry, the same was true when compounds came on the scene. Those who adapted flourished. Those who didn't failed. No different than any other industry.

KPC

From: MK111
07-Aug-18
IMHO it's just a board of mfg's trying to protect the sales of their members.

This is what is tearing the hunting sport apart. If someone don't do it or like it then let's close it or move it into another season. These thinkers are just thinking of taking away the chance of someone else getting a chance of shooting 'their deer'.

Here in Ohio were crossbows have been legal for years and the sky has not fallen. We also have the complainers who want to shut down the Youth Season 2 weeks before gun season because a adult may shoot a trophy buck out of season. Just plan selflessness because they think someone may get a chance at 'their deer'.

From: MT in MO
07-Aug-18
A pistol is a firearm, a shotgun is a firearm, a rifle is a firearm, a .50 caliber machine gun is a firearm...all the same? Not hardly...

From: longbeard
07-Aug-18
Emotion, emotion, emotions! That’s all you got? JTV on 99% of all things you say I agree with, but this one not so much! But that’s ok we can agree to disagree Thank you for spelling it out nicely for us KPC

From: sleepyhunter
07-Aug-18
Like them or not, crossbows are here to stay. I'll stay with my recurves. I will admit the technology going into crossbows is impressive. I doubt if I will ever buy one.

From: Bob H in NH
07-Aug-18
K Cummings you keep saying a crossbow is a bow due to the definition of bow, but who sets that? IF the definition includes drawn by hand and held, then it's not. IF the definition is launches an arrow by built up force with no external power, then it is.

Who defines "bow"

From: Joey Ward
07-Aug-18
Bob, as example, here's how the Alabama Dept of G&F describes the difference...….

220-2-.03 Legal Specifications for Bow and Arrow

(1) A legal bow for hunting is defined as either a long bow, a recurve bow, or a compound bow or a crossbow.

(2) It shall be unlawful, except as otherwise provided by law or regulation, for any person to hunt deer and turkey with bow and arrows that are not in conformance with the following specifications:

(a) Bows must have a minimum peak tension (within the user's normal draw length) of 30 pounds. Crossbows must have a minimum peak tension of 85 pounds at normal draw length.

(b) Arrows shall be equipped with a broadhead which has a minimum cutting diameter of 7/8 inch and 2 sharpened edges.

(3) Crossbows must be equipped with a working safety.

As you can see, there are differences...…..However, these are what can be used in OUR archery season.

From: Will
07-Aug-18
I wrestle with this. I'm 100% fine with folks who can not use a vert bow, using a xbow during archery season. And I admit, it's likely an irrational thing, to look at them, and they look so gun like that they just feel off during archery season to me... Likely what trad shooters say when I pull out my wheelie bow though. I've been growing more comfortable with it, mostly because I feel it's more important to get folks hunting than it is to debate what is and isnt archery... Just noting that they still feel weird to me.

Do any of you know if the deer numbers shot with xbow's in Wis were higher due to efficiency, or numbers - and were those numbers augmented by folks leaving archery? In other words, did you have 100K bow hunters, then they legalized xbow's and now there are 100K bow hunters and 75 K xbow hunters, or did some archers slide over, and some gun folks slide over so you ended up with a similar kill rate per hunter or hunter hours but more folks in the woods with xbow's so they just naturally shot more deer?

From: K Cummings
07-Aug-18

K Cummings's embedded Photo
K Cummings's embedded Photo
Bob:

There is actually two answers to that question.

In our every day lexicon, the definition is as posted.

In terms of how the game departments define what constitutes “archery equipment” it varies by state. Not a lot different than what defines a suitable draw weight, broadhead, or even arrow size.

At the end of the day, game depts define what weapons can be used during each season.

KPC

From: Rhody
07-Aug-18
Crossbows=mechanical gun or bow with a device to hold tension on string hands free. No skill required.

Archery should be a personal journey of learning how to shoot the bow and arrow that requires a person holding the tension on the string before loosing the arrow. This, takes time to learn properly to develop the skill necessary to place an arrow on the spot intended by the shooter.

To me, 80% let off is almost a vertical crossbow, plus, how many would shoot a wheel bow as a bare bow, no sights or releases..... I've met a few, but they were oldsters who couldn't hold steady a 60lb. bow anymore, but wanted the challenge of flinging arrows by their own wits....

From: K Cummings
07-Aug-18
"Archery should be a personal journey of learning how to shoot the bow and arrow that requires a person holding the tension on the string before loosing the arrow. This, takes time to learn properly to develop the skill necessary to place an arrow on the spot intended by the shooter."

I agree with you Rhody. That's why I choose not to use a crossbow or a compound. Problem solved.

KPC

From: Woods Walker
07-Aug-18
" I agree that getting drawn on a deer, without being detected, is the biggest challenge, when wanting to shoot a deer with a bow and arrow. If all you have to do is pull a trigger, on a bow that stays cocked for hours, so you don't have to go through the drawing process, when a deer is in range, to me, isn't bow hunting. JMO."

So going by this, do you also think that tent blinds don't belong in archery season either because the deer cannot see you draw....or do anything else for that matter?

From: Shuteye
07-Aug-18
I have killed lots of deer with recurve and compound. I was averaging about 10 deer a year but recently cut down to three or four. The deer limit is so large it doesn't make any difference to me what they use around here. A few years ago I bought a crossbow and killed deer with it. Use the same broadhead I used with my compound bow. The compound or crossbow will easily get a pass through every time on a double lung shot. The disadvantage of the crossbow is getting a second shot quickly. With my compound I have killed two deer very quickly several times. I guess they make crossbows that cock easier than mine but I'm not spending that much money. Now days, since I am retired, I have all the time to hunt and only shoot big does. I take a lot more pictures of deer, up close, than shooting them. I spend time hunting with a single shot 50 cal muzzle loading pistol. It kills deer quickly also.

From: JTV
07-Aug-18
WW, now YOUR being disingenuous and damn ignorant ,,, and this is my absolute last word on this thread .....

07-Aug-18
Species already on a limited archery draw are where the most controversy comes to play. Midwestern whitetails are plentiful and easy to harvest with all weapons, including my selfbow.

From: K Cummings
07-Aug-18
"So going by this, do you also think that tent blinds don't belong in archery season either because the deer cannot see you draw....or do anything else for that matter? "

You bring up a very valid point WW. Both a crossbow and a tent blind greatly reduce a deer's ability to see hunter movement. The tent blind goes even farther by reducing scent dispersal, noise, etc.

So really, is it a matter of not wanting to make things easier, or a matter of getting to pick and choose what you use to make things easier?

KPC

From: Bentstick81
07-Aug-18
I'm not too worried about blinds. You still have human scent to contend with, and I've tried blinds, years ago. I even left them out for a while, first, and the deer still shy's away from the blind. Plus, my opinion is, you are really handicapped in a blind. I doubt if i would ever pack one to the woods again. Like i said earlier. Years ago, The dnr wouldn't let people use anything that would hold a bow in a drawn position while hunting for deer, and for a good reason. Time will tell what impact, crossbows for everyone, will have on the herd. I'm saying it will have a big impact on an already dismal deer herd. JMO

From: sleepyhunter
07-Aug-18
If using a ground blind helps you achieve success go for it. I hunt off of 12 ft and 10 ft Tripods in South Tx. No regrets.

From: Woods Walker
07-Aug-18
I'm not debating that angle of it Bent. That's for the scientists to determine . (Although the EXACT same arguments to the word were made against compound bows when they first came out and they were mostly unfounded). All I'm saying is that stating that a particular type of bow should not be in archery season because you personally don't like it and in your opinion it doesn't LOOK like what you think a bow ought to look like is specious at best. I don't think modern compounds look like "bows" either.

Just for the record, I shoot recurves. I do not like modern compounds because:

1. They are heavy, complicated and are just flat out butt-ugly.

2. You can become proficient enough with one to start hunting within a month or so after you first get one if you shoot enough. I taught a deer camp friend who wanted to learn bowhunting how to shoot the compound he bought, and by the fall he was able to kill his first deer with it. He and others now are bowhunters, but they do not love archery, they just like to hunt more.

Now both of these things are why I do not like crossbows (they are like carrying a fire hydrant into the woods and make a tricked out compound seem like my 2 1/2 pound Super Kodiak) AND compounds. So I don't shoot them. Problem solved. If you do then I wish you all the best. Have great bow season!

From: JL
08-Aug-18
"" All that’s going to be a moot point here in Michigan starting this year when the DNR allows rifles in the early bow season to begin their plan of eradicating the deer because of CWD. ""

There are ongoing efforts to CX that proposed NRC amendment on Thursday's vote.

From: Bentstick81
08-Aug-18
No doubt Woods, the crossbows are heavy. I will quit hunting before i use one. Hope you have a great season also.

From: Woods Walker
08-Aug-18
Compounds too!

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