Bowsite.com

For all the non-believers, if the animal kingdom can do it, why not God?

I know there are non-believers here and I am not trying to offend you.

No sacred cows on the CF, right?

I'd suggest that, well, we are animals, so, perhaps it could happen in a human. Regardless, it's really cool.

.

Only one requires a miracle.

Three weeks later a cow walked up carrying the Bible in it's mouth.

The cowboy couldn't believe his eyes.

He took the book out of the cow's mouth, raised his eyes heavenward and exclaimed, "It's a miracle!"

"Not really," said the cow.

The science is not settled with regards to climate change, but it is when it is with unfertilized pregnancies and birth?

We don't know if a male has never been born because we only know the results of the ones we have observed.

The day educators think we know everything is the day they need to leave the classroom.

In that sense, science is never settled. It just becomes accepted if it's most consistently the case. As odd as it sounds, the number of systems involved in climate and it's research are likely far more than parthenogenesis... So the ability to create super strong evidence in any direction or with consistency has to be harder.

Wholly cow, HA, that cow talking joke cracked me up big time! Thanks for that!

Good argument. I grant climate change science is more difficult. That statement does not negate anything I said, except that it is "more" difficult. Subjective term in this application. More does not mean the other is not difficult, just less.

As I said, and you did as well, both are unsettled. We will continue to gain more knowledge with both if our minds are open to interpreting data.

My article used terms such as "rare", "miracle". My post was only intended to initiate thought.

Most non-believers I discuss faith with will typically say something is not possible and saying Good did it without proof is silly.

I have long believed God does His work within the laws of science He created, we just don't understand all of those laws completely.

I have even wondered if climate change is the coming of the end where life on Earth will be destroyed. But alas, my wonder is just that, and an attempt to know Him better in the way my mind allows.

You are kidding, right?

For example, all ants and honey bees except drones and queens are produced by parthenogenesis.

"Rare". Why the story made the news. That is different than what you posted. It is still rare even though more than previously thought. "...may be..." is not proof.

You don't know what has never happened, what we do know is it has not been observed and documented.

Galileo, remember him.

We continue to learn. I am convinced man is supposed to. That is how we get closer to Him.

I think you missed the entire point.

Glad I stopped here instead of the article about scientists proving life after death. It had to do with the conscience surviving.

I did not post this story for the Ray, but for something else.

Heaven and Earth (that would include every physical thing that we are aware of) will pass away, but the Word of God lasts forever.

Call it whatever you want, but the pregnancy of Mary was by direct intervention of the Spirit of God. It was not just some law of nature that we have not yet discovered.

All of that is just your opinion. Saying it sternly makes no difference.

I believe in God, and that He created all things, including the natural laws of which you speak. I believe He also created us in His likeness, which explains man's rational, mostly, behavior.

When we just accept the order of the world without a curiosity to look for explanations, then we have a life not worth living.

He expects us to seek Him out and have a relationship. Scripture is full of stories of men being treated differently.

XX may produce XX, but cannot produce XY

Then you are limiting God. If God is confined to those laws, then the virgin birth, water into wine, feeding the 5000, and most importantly the resurrection, the pillar belief of Christianity becomes invalid.

God cannot be limited, nor would he limit himself. One thing I have learned over the years is, God is God. And I am not.

Can God create a boulder too heavy for Him to lift?

We do not know all of His laws. Think gravity, black matter etc.

Anything we cannot explain today we attribute to the supernatural. A person in the 1800s if told about AI would probably think the same.

Professor Hawkins who died recently from a disease that would have ended life much sooner for most. People cured from diseases, but not by medicine. The power of the brain is phenomenal, and we are just at the beginning of understanding it. And God created it!

I don't know the answers, but I search. And as I learn more I realize how awesome and amazing He is.

I do apologize for starting these types of threads lately. I hunger for discussions with other hunters, but grow tired of the links and memes that are always about political conflict. I like to learn, committed to it for my lifetime. Thanks.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

You hit a good point there with things once believed impossible, being so common they are not even novel. Imagine talking to a native american or citizen of London in the 1600's and showing them the Galaxy S9 on the side of my desk. Imagine calling someone with it... "Mind... BLOWN!" Heck, my dad's (he's 76) description of watching his off the boat from Greece grandmother the first time she saw a TV... It was a boxing match and a guy got knocked down out of the frame. She walked over and tried to look with a downward angle to see if she could see him "down there". That technology blew her mind... Imagine if she saw a modern high def wall hung TV?

So much of what we dont know, is due to limitations in both imagination and technology... They are inter-related for sure. And the world, and the universe beyond us are so complicated, we are probably thousands of years from "all" or even "most" of the answers to questions known, and yet to be imagined.

I'm spiritual, though not religious per se in any "classical" sense. Odd perhaps for a guy who sends his kids to a Catholic school! My suspicion, given the role of spirituality across cultures and regions since modern man evolved, is that it's something we as humans "need"... Not the other way round.

There is so much we can't know. And what we cant know is either scary as hell or creates the kind of curiosity that drives amazing innovation and growth.

The part that's scary as hell is made a lot less so, if we can have a tool to explain it. It helps make the world feel much better, anchors things, and really creates a sense of stability. I mean, if we are just a rock hurtling through space at around 67,000 miles per hour... that leaves a lot of scary possibilities on the table...

But you talk to astrophysicists and geologists and what not and what appears random, starts to appear less so. Perhaps not directed, but not random. It spurs creativity seeking answers to crazy questions about how we got here and where we go from here...

Technology is barely able to look at those questions yet... it's just getting there. So there is crazy curiosity and seeking to explore both the tools we could use and questions we could ask.

Religiosity helps create peace for individuals and cultures. And that's awesome. At least when it's used for good. The challenge is when people do obnoxious things in the name of religion. Then it's jut another political tool, and no longer a tool "we" can use to help create a set of positive beliefs related to who and what we are and how it is that we are here.

I'm just thinking out loud here, while waiting on my wife so we can go Vote in the primaries here today... Enjoyable questions to ponder and points to review above. Very cool.

I believe when we find all of the answers, is when God reveals Himself. Eternity is a long time, IMO our quest is to find Him and all of His marvels.

Good for you on the Catholic schools. I am a product of them from first grade through graduate school.

Thanks Will!

But, obviously this is just another opinion;)

Thanks.

Perspective does play an important role. Maybe too many math/science courses in my youth. Genetics no doubt. I think we all search, our minds do it differently, and I am OK with that. The Bible, God worked through people in varying ways.

I just don't believe order came out of random chaos, and my mind needs to wrap around unknowns in a way that I can digest. I accept that, God made me this way for a reason IMHO. Just like He did to all of us. Thanks for asking.

1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."

Job 5:12-13 "He captures the wise by their own shrewdness, And the advice of the cunning is quickly thwarted. "He frustrates the plotting of the shrewd, So that their hands cannot attain success.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 11:33-34 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

Corinthians 2:4-5 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Isaiah 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!

Who wrote the bible? Its hitting me that Im not sure. The apostles? Jesus?

I know it's been re written a zillion times, but originally... who wrote it?

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

God wrote the bible and used apparently 40 different authors to put it on paper.

Hopefully those versuses do not apply for those who look to know God better by understanding what He created. Taken to an extreme, progress would end. Searching is an admission of ignorance.

It did always bother me that Hawkins denied God, as do many of the most brilliant minds. Extreme intelligence seems to be a burden in accepting Belief. I don't have to worry about that;)

My suspicion, is that folks like that (Hawkins) have so much knowledge, and yet also so much understanding that what we dont know, does not mean we cant know those things in the future. If that's your true belief, you look at those areas where one could say: "That seems impossible, it had to happen via a higher power...", and you dont feel the same way. You think: "Wow, what a cool set of questions to investigate. What a gift if we could all know those answers."

Probably viewed as horrible, but what if some had a spiritual relationship with science - as an example.

Consider my hypothetical questions a guy like Hawkens could have said above...

In many ways, that's just religion. It create's comfort by filling in the blanks in our reality, and it softens the fear's of the impossible. For a Hawkens, science filled in the gaps at a level most of us will never even have the capacity to grasp. While at a lower level of understanding, that's the case for many I suspect.

Be it via Christianity, Judaism, Shamanism, Native American spiritual beliefs (that could fall under the realm of Shamanism in a lot of ways I suppose), Buddhism or whatever... If it helps someone live better and bring goodness to the world, great.

It doesnt bother me if someone does or does not believe. It bothers me if their belief causes them to think they are superior to others or should push others down/away.

I went down a weird bunch of worm holes there. That statement made me think - thanks for that!

You are obviously very bright! I appreciate your questions, and the dialogue.

You are on to something possibly with the brilliant filling a "void", for lack of better term, with science, as others like myself fill with Faith. Notice, I did not say religion.

I don't have answers to most of what you ask. Faith is simply a gift from above. I am bothered that all do not receive the gift, and ponder it. Honestly, it is something that bothers me. Some just accept things the way they are. My personality forces me to search. I search because I do not know, but want to. What I do not understand, I accept that I am incapable of understanding the wisdom of God.

I don't know if I helped you understand any better where I am coming from? This entire expanding universe was created by intelligent design IMHO. I call that designer God. By understanding better what He created helps build a better relationship with Him, for me. I believe He expects us to have a personal relationship with Him, and mine will be different than yours, or Henry's, or anyone else's.

Another great discussion would be all of the commonalities various world religions share and how that happened.

Thanks Will!

Both the richest and the smartest (probably the most popular, best looking, most popular, most religious, etc.) have the same opportunity as all of us to humble ourselves before God, but if we decide that we have a better way, we probably will not decide we need God and our best thoughts and works are as filthy rags compared to the Goodness and Grace of God.

The question that comes to me, whenever I ponder this stuff, is this: If one is not "religious"... Hold up, I'm using that term intentionally. As I noted above, Hawkins and those like him, may knowingly or unknowingly use science and faith interchangeably, in other words, they work the same for them.

Ok, so, if one is not religious, but, as with someone like Hawkins, you bring astonishing gifts to the pool of human knowledge - IE, do amazing things for the world beyond yourself, would you be less likely to "get in" so to speak?

What if you are not religious, but live what would be defined as a virtuous life by most measures. Treat others well. Apologize when mistakes are made. Do things to help others. etc... So you function as, say, the Bible or a specific religion may want, just not formally for religious purposes - rather, because it's a good way to live. Do you not get in, while those who "practice" their religion, but are less virtuous (by those sorts of standards) do get in, since they are on the team so to speak?

This stuff always makes me curious. In many ways, discussion of religion/s becomes one of the greatest philosophical discussions you could have. Believe, in the middle or not, it's still a fantastic way to look at living a good life. It may be a path, or a reflection one uses to affirm or seek change in themselves depending on where you stand, but this sort of discussion can be really enlightening.

Catholics and Protestants are pretty much on the same page with this now.

Myself, true Faith compels one to act accordingly.

-Will, I get the seeming conundrum. Perhaps, the value is that, in the latter's case, any good they will do, though less, will uplift God whereas, no matter what good the former group does, it does not reflect the glory of God and therefore, diminishes the actual value of their contributions. Besides, as Jesus said,"No one is good--except God alone." Virtue grading is as vacuous an exercise as sin grading, imo.

This stuff always makes me curious. In many ways, discussion of religion/s becomes one of the greatest philosophical discussions you could have. 100% agree. You nailed it.

It seems that God would be happier to see a follower who, to make an easy example, was not good to people... Than a non follower, who was good to people.

That seems to become a motivation for people to validate poor behaviors because: "I believe" and "that person is not good, because they dont believe".

Am I over thinking this?

Try to personalize it. You have 2 children. One is broken in some way but loves you and shows you genuine love though his actions are often disappointing. The other is a pillar of the community but refuses to acknowledge you even exist though you've dedicated your life to loving and supporting her. You invite them both to Christmas dinner but only one is coming...

On point 2, there is no validating poor behavior. We are not saved by works but works follows faith. That's not optional. I don't believe you are "overthinking this." You're thinking like the religious creature every human is. And that is base logic with which to regard God. We are all guilty of that.

Beautiful analogy, thanks.

If our actions here are so insignificant in the eternal sense, why worry about anything whatsoever?

A Buddhist has faith in their system of religion, would that mean that God would be more likely to accept a Buddhist into heaven than a Christian who, while not out there killing folks, is willing to generally not be very nice - rude to people often, see's someone drop a 20 dollar bill in line and picks it up as theres, cheats others, that sort of stuff?

Or would he accept that Christian I just described because he goes to church on Sunday, even though he lives a life that is in no way as positive as the Buddhist in my hypothetical?

That sort of differential is where I keep getting stuck. It just makes no sense to me that one could have a high moral standard and social conscious, anchored in whatever belief system they have cobbled together or were brought up with etc, live a great life, but be viewed as unworthy... While someone like the Christian in my example above would be hopping the pearly gate for believing?

See what I'm saying? It just seems counter to the message "preached" about how "we" should live...

Thanks for the open and cool convo!

--Will, think objectively - if there exists a standard (of morality, being, etc), behaviors of the standard cannot be attributed elsewhere without adulterating and eventually ruining the standard. So, yeah, accuracy of causation (acknowledgement of God) is a key component of execution. That is neither theological nor circular. It's just logic.

This is a crude example but think of morality as intellectual property. Let's say you have world beating IP, you go deeply into debt developing it, bringing it to market,etc and you start to do well with it. The catch is you are the only one who can effectively service your IP through its product life. But, because your margins are good, you can guarantee a lifetime warranty. Great situation but you do so well that 3-4 other bigger companies cheaply knock it off and cut your margins to shreds. You go bankrupt and can barely afford to eat so your original IP and any future technological advancements go the way of the dodo. All the while, the consumers are forced to repetitively buy the knock offs and eventually spend 10x the amount of money they would have if you were selling and your product. Who wins in that scenario? (not rhetorical, there is a winner)

If our actions here are so insignificant in the eternal sense, why worry about anything whatsoever? Relative insignificance does not negate fully though, I get how that was really poorly phrased on my part. FWIW, I don't think we should 'worry' so much either. We should just act.

As for you're other remarks, no one "hops" into heaven and both Jesus and the Bible are very clear on perfunctory (legalistic) observances.

I agree. I enjoy the conversation.

Owl, the winner (all taken face value) would be the companies who stole, cheat and plundered the creative minded person. At least they won the output. When I read into it I imagine the smart person would have invested well, saved well, and while the company failed, they had developed enough capitol, and have the creativity, to move onward positively :) ha! Optimists, huh? But, in the example, the output or objective winner are the thieves, for lack of a better descriptive term.

Lets not worry about differences. Lets take a Buhddist, Native American and Christian. In my perfect hypothetical world, they do everything the exact same - great citizens, clean living, etc. The only one going to see God would be the Christian, is that true? Even with everything in life having been the same?

Your last question is one that has always bothered me as well. How about folks before Christ?

My answer is to place faith in God, His wisdom is beyond comprehension. To have been exposed to Christ, and deny Him though is different than never having known. I am not a Calvinist though, can not wrap my head around pre-destiny and a God of good.

That is just me. I look forward to reading Owl's response though, he obviously knows much more.

Thanks for keeping this going.

Essentially you must have " Faith" in the first commandment as a Being, the "I AM" to perform the second function of love for others. The story and final chapter, as recorded, gives us the example of this. (the perfect example) "Faith" is not just mentally believing or acknowledging the existence of a creator God. It is Trust and a willingness to follow the example as displayed by Jesus. " Follow me" "Bind yourself to me" " I am the way" etc. For most, It is a change of Heart, a new beginning, a new life mission.

Jesus walked around, telling those who he could see into, that it is their Faith that has saved them. He didn't say that to everyone and often points out the Hypocrite who is posing as a "Religious" person but is not clean within. No Saving Faith in them.

He sets the bar high . for it is written: "Be Holy because I Am Holy." 1 Peter 1:16 So high that it is unattainable without His Spirit in you. His Holy Spirit is real and needed. Romans 4:3-8 “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

Those beyond the awareness of Jesus as the Christ (IE Before He walked among us or those who have not been reached ) have their Faith to guide them. For it is written on their heart and mind.

The problem with those who claim faith but deny Jesus is: That Faith which is truly and humbly aligned with God, points directly at Jesus and only Jesus. To reject Him is to reject God. Why? Because He was foretold of, fulfilled all requirements in perfection, is full of Holiness. If one accepts that there is a Creator God, then the one most basic reason for belief is His communication with us in full measure. Though reason/ reasoning is not needed to believe.

If God did not experience our plight then we would have one over Him. He would not truly be all-knowing, loving and the greatest of perfection to model after. That and Jesus would be a big old liar.

May the Spirit of God open your heart.

-So, they are exactly the same except in the one distinction that matters most (imo)? I answered that above but I'll tackle it a different way. Morality is not only about "doing good" (wholly subjective without God, btw), it is a key component to fulfilling the purpose of life - "to know God and make God known."* One cannot do that without even acknowledging God, so, in a very real sense, one who does not know God fails at life.

God "sees" everyone, of course. There's a passage in Romans, quoting Isaiah - "It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"" So, according to the Bible, we will all acknowledge God. It is just a matter of when and what we do about it. This is a whole different debate, though.

* This is a quote from Frank Turek, a man who, among other things, is bold enough to concretely answer what the meaning of life is. When I first heard it, I thought it was conceit that he would presume to know the answer to such a question but then I rolled it around in my head and I never could meaningfully dispel the notion.

To have been exposed to Christ, and deny Him though is different than never having known. Yup.

( Yes ) : If you are asking about being accepted into God's Kingdom then, Yes. A Christian is saved by Faith, ( in God) by God's Grace and not by deeds. (No) : Others will stand before God so they may see Him. And be judged by Him.

"Seeing God" 1 : The Buddhist do not have God. They don't want to have God. Rejecting God does not end well. 2: Native American religions do not have the One God you ask about. But some individuals among them may be or may have been seeking that one God and therefore they are on the path by Faith. So it depends on their personal disposition to that which is in their mind and heart as placed there by God. 3: Christians Do seek God. According to that God that you are talking about, it is a prerequisite. And by no other name can one be saved. Jesus.

Will others have a chance to believe after they are dead? ( yes, they will know the truth ) A chance that changes their ultimate end ?... No, I wouldn't count on it. No indication in the Bible that I know of for a do-over. All things are possible with God. But He is also telling us the truth.

We have reached where I think the discussion ends peacefully with acceptance... If not, happy to continue working at this... It just feels like we have reached the limits of our beliefs - though coming from different directions.

True points Pi, RE my examples - and which is precisely why I used those examples. I really appreciate the points guys. I just get lost on it all when I consider things which seem to transcend any religion, goodness for example. It may require a philosophy - formal or not - for life, but it does not appear to require any specific religion.

In the end, It still feels the "religion" of doing good while here, of living a good life and trying to improve the world while here is the ultimate goal. Personally, Ill take my chances with that approach. And I'm going to hope other folks will as well - whatever their spiritual belief system may be.

But I'm going to keep asking questions like we have on this thread to try and understand more, and learn. I've said it a few times, but I really appreciate the good conversation on this stuff guys. Really cool, I appreciate it H4W, HA/KS, Owl, and towards the end here, Pi. Thanks for sharing your knowledge guys!

Thank you, and thanks to the others you listed as well. I continue to learn!

Best wishes to you. Keep listening to what is tugging at you!

Looks like many young folks are having a crisis of faith.

This statement got me thinking and researching a little. And I've always been a bit intrigued by it. Now, I'm assuming if you're a math guy you may have already know what I have recently discovered. Anyways, I always thought that chaos was just that...chaotic...unpredictable!! If I understand it, you and Will are correct, in that, it has a slight predictability known as Deterministic Chaos, yet an unpredictable side known as Extreme Sensitivity Dependent Upon Initial Conditions. It's mind boggling to say the least.

It also refers to the fractal called the "Mandelbrot equation", which, ironically enough, is also known as "The Thumbprint of God"! This is something I had never heard of before. I have heard of the butterfly effect, but never really thought about the details of it.

Anyway, just thought I'd share if you were interested. If you needed to claim a good deed for the day, you can say you planted the seed of knowledge on a stone (my brain) and it actually took root!

Cheers!

That is the Holy Spirit calling 70.

Thanks!