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Check it out.... I’m trying to figure out how to post it....... I’d like to hear what our teachers here have to say about it..... Any help posting the video would be appreciated.

Just copy and post the video's URL, minus the "s" in "https", in this thread.

Matt

From my perspective, school served many purposes. It provided me a set of fundamental skills that I still use - reading, writing, arithmetic, etc. Much of what I was taught, I've forgotten or no longer use (put a differential equation in front of me or ask me to integrate something and you can forget about it) - but I certainly use a lot of what I was taught daily (from elementary school, middle school, high school, undergraduate, and grad school). And even if I can't solve a differential equation anymore, I still understand the concepts behind derivatives and how it applies to my job as an engineer.

Beyond that, school taught me many lessons outside of the classroom. No, I never took a class on time-management or on self-control, but I learned plenty about both in the context of my schooling. I got exposure to juggling commitments, making sacrifices, and balancing "work"-life obligations in the context of my schooling. Going off to college was somewhat of a practice session of being an adult - managing finances, time, etc. Through schooling, I also got a sense of what my interests, strengths, and passions were and that led me to the career I'm in today. Could I have gotten this without "school"? Maybe, but I struggle to see what that model looks like.

And even if I couldn't solve a differential equation these days, my schooling taught me how to think and how to solve problems. Through my schooling, I was able to demonstrate my capacity, ability to achieve, and manage relationships - all dimensions upon which my current employer measured me on. They didn't hire me because I got an "A" in my Thermodynamics class - they hired me because they knew I had the aptitude to grasp and solve complex technical problems. Is schooling and testing the only way to demonstrate these skills? No, but it is often the most effective and consistent way. And it's not to say that people who test well and do well in school are the only ones who can be successful.

Is the education system perfect? Of course not. I think the video does make an interesting point that there are lots of life skills that school does not address adequately (at least in a classroom setting). But I think an education system that would somehow remove "school" from the equation would also have a tremendous amount of gaps.

I dont disagree with a lot of what he says. In particular the "scores" focus as a metric of whether we are educating. I think it was google that was trying to study applicants and create an algorithm to detect the best applicants for jobs, but discovered the things they thought were going to be most valuable - high powered education, top of class, tons of extra curriculars etc really stunk at predicting future performance on the job... But creativity on the other hand... Tightly correlated.

If we educate to the test, it's tough to be nurturing creativity.

If a kid tries to solve a problem 10 creative way's and fails, figuring out a strategy that works great on the 11th attempt, does he or she know more or less than a kid who tries once, with neat instructions and gets it the first time? They both "know" how to do it in the end... But that first kid who failed a ton - they are so much more knowledgeable. They "understand" vs "know" the information.

I think this sort of more open approach to learning is similar to systems used in some other countries - most of which have much higher scholastic success scores than the US.

All that said... What's school for? I believe it's for creating the platform from which other ideas can be developed and nurtured. For example, Apple was created by a dropout - of Harvard, not High School. Most of those on his list of dropouts either were pre formal education being a "normal" or did make it at least through high school. You need some level of fundamental understanding to make larger leaps. Creativity alone, wont cut it... Your creatively cant solve that which your imagination has never dreamed about.

School should help you create that foundation. It should knock you out of your comfort zone intellectually and create questions that frustrate, and spark you.

School should spark growth.

Regrettably, there is a LOT that impacts this.

If you are worried your dad's going to beat the crap out of mom, you are not getting much out of any school, any where.

If you are worried about whether your family has money for food or if your brother will get killed etc... School cant fix that.

I would like to see schools be allowed to do what those inside them, in my experience, would largely love to see: ditch the importance of various standardized tests - very often implemented to make politicians happy (never got that, letting politicians make decisions about things like science (of which learning for sure is)) on election day, vs kids more intellectually successful.

There needs to be a transcendence there though. Which comes down to families and communities legitimately embracing the idea that developing the knowledge and thinking base of our world has value. We need to make sure people dont view school as day care for bigger kids, or something done solely outside the house... It's easy to "blame schools"... it's hard to really build creative solutions to the problems within them.

Knowing the Pythagorean Theory is something like 5% of the adult population likely "needs" on a daily basis... Having done the work to figure it out, understand and use it... that creates a network of understanding and mathmatical problem solving which can help you doing more challenging math in years to come, or more basic math, thinking abstractly to solve problems, even in seemingly unrelated fields, for the rest of your life... Even if you forgot about the Pythagorean Theory quickly after working on it.

School could be better, especially if people with expertise in it are allowed to structure and develop it...

But it's far from wasted... Far far far from wasted for sure.

So I dont really disagree with the video's points. But I'd suggest school is about nurturing creative problem solving, and providing the fundamental skills needed to do that.

Cool video - got me thinking.

I laughed out loud when he spoke about the Pathagorean Theorem, as if it is some useless bit of info he was forced to memorize but has no real-life practicality. As an architect and custom home builder, I used that theorem on a daily basis. I bet this kid has no idea that a carpenter can layout and compute the lengths of every stud in a rake wall using nothing but that theorem and a calculator.

It sounds like this kid is looking for psychological therapy, not schooling or education. What is school for? I can tell you what it's NOT for. It's not for teaching kids how to cope with stress, or depression, or suicidal thoughts. It's NOT for teaching discipline, honor, integrity, trustworthiness, or self-respect. Those are all things that should be learned at home from parents and loved-ones.

This kid is obviously bright (or he memorizes a script very well), but I'm afraid his message misses the mark.

Matt

I don’t necessarily agree with everything he’s saying but I do think he raises some interesting points.....

I couldn’t tell you what the heck a rake wall is Matt.... let alone what the Pathagorean Therom is.....:-) I don’t even know how to spell it...... and it is a useless bit of information in my world.......

Matt

And his point about homework.... ?? Yep.... that hit home too...... Why is my 3rd or 4th grader bringing home an hours worth of homework ??? Didn’t they have enough time to teach her in school ??

Some of the smartest people I’ve known in life were not highly educated.........

Building off what GG said and what I briefly mentioned in my post, I don't really see an alternative being offered to "school."

I've had classes that were better taught and better structured, but they all came in the context of school.

I do think there are potentially some topics that do get ignored in schools - I've had some great leadership and "soft skills" classes through both work and in grad school that I believe would have been valuable to cover earlier in my life in some fashion. That said, I don't see how teaching kids about their credit or how to cook (some of the gaps highlighted in the video) is going to result in a better education for our kids.

That's my point, Chris. An education is what you make of it, and how you apply it to your own life and/or career.

FYI, if your home has any vaulted ceilings, the walls at the end of the room with angled top-plates are considered "rake" walls. The Pathagorean Theorem is a simple formula for calculating the lengths of the sides of any right triangle. So, you can calculate the length of every piece of lumber in a rake wall with nothing but that formula and a calculator, as long as you know the pitch of the ceiling/roof.

Matt

I actually used the Pythagorean theorem the other week as well. It's actually one of the most useful theorems I do know!

He's complaining about the confines... yet it's when we are given limits, that we become truly creative. Think about it. If you are told to build an outhouse and all you have is a chisel and hand saw... You have to get mighty creative to figure it out. You were given limits, but also a target, and you sought out creative solutions. Brilliant! On the other hand, If I ask you to build an outhouse and give you detailed plans, pre cut and numbered lumber, every possible tool needed... all you do is assemble the dang thing - you dont really learn how to build things or solve problems you may encounter.

Maybe I'm over thinking, I do that :)!

But that's what I'm circling back to here. The guy is super creative and talented as all heck at his craft, but it feels like, as others noted, there is no solution offered and it's suggesting the limitations of schools, currently, are a negative...

When the reality is that limits yield creativity.

----

Oh, one more thing to add... Why should schools teach time management. It's hard enough to teach all the other stuff... Why don't FAMILIES have to do some work?

Yep, A squared + B squared = C squared. Simple geometry, and a must know for any designer, architect, or engineer. That's why I laughed when this kid used it as an example of useless memorized information. He clearly has no aptitude for math, or concept of how it can be used in real-life practical situations. That's on him, not his school or teachers.

Matt

That very well may be true. That said, I'll push back on the notion that "creativity" is what school or education should strive for. I think about my profession and schooling, and on the list of attributes that are valued and IMO necessary for success, creativity is fairly far down the list.

Sure, we look for novel solutions and ways of approaching a problem which haven't been considered - but those solutions need to be sound and grounded in solid engineering work that effectively manages the technical, commercial, political, economic, and organizational risks inherent in the problems we're trying to solve. Creativity won't necessarily do that for you.

The cornerstone really seems to be that you need a concrete footing in real, concrete, factual information from which you can directly build a greater base of knowledge and skill... Or form new creative connections.

Without that sort of consistent platform from which to build upon, well, I think you could strongly argue we create a lot of Dunning Krugger scenarios.

Heck, I think that's a big limitation of gaining one's knowledge via solely self guided "study". You follow YOUR worm holes, there are not limitations driving you to expand what you know - be that related to fundamental academic skills, or more abstract connections between systems.

Cool stuff man. Thanks for getting me thinking.

I don't see any arguing going on. What I see is an unusually civil and respectful discussion, minus your useless post.

Matt

Matt

Agreed Matt.

Question though... why are we all in italics all of a sudden? I have no clue how to do that on here - I know KPC seems to pull it off, and some of you guys know how to bold things and stuff... I have no clue how that works. What button did I push :)?

Yeah, nothing but civil, respectful, thoughtful posts on the purpose of school and education...minus, yours longbeard.

Used to use it all the time back in the day to figure azimuth and DLS for wellplans preparing APD packets...

Off topic a little, but I used geometry all the time calculating square footage/acreage before GPS units did this, when installing food plots commercially. Whether a rectangular, circle or triangle, a range finder, calculator and the right equation told me everything needed for seed and soil amendments.

Teaching at a community college, memorization is not the focus. Already listed here what is taught that is important.

Regarding K-12, I like home schooling and all other forms of competition to the public monopoly.

Some really bright folks here! Thanks for a good discussion Chris.

my .02

Oh and I built a small patio, I needed to know and use Pythagoreans theorem in order to figure out the side piece.

I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt since you say you were a Marine Officer and a teacher.

I have had enough of your extreme double standards, most recently as evidenced with your Kavanaugh statements.

Your critical thinking skills are terrible, or your integrity is non-existent, or both. No more will I extend you the benefit of doubt.

There are many purposes for school.

One that is very important is to give all future citizens a common set of experiences that help give our society and our nation a cohesive identity.

One is to increase general knowledge of history, science, etc.

One is to teach vital basic math and language skills that are necessary for almost any profession.

One is to offer opportunity to all so that being born into a family that is poor or uneducated does not mean a life sentence to second-class status.

One is to provide citizens who are prepared to be an asset to society and the nation.

There are many others.

Unfortunately, much that was formerly taught by family and society has been dumped onto the schools. It is not a good situation because schools are either not very good at it, or use the opportunity to teach children ways of thinking and acting that are not beneficial to society.

The ultimate purpose of school is to maximize the development of the innate potential in every young person in ways that benefit both the individual and society/the nation as a whole.

One thing that must be remembered is that anything that can be learned at school can also be learned by some individuals without school. Not every child has the opportunity or ability to do that

School should be a means to equalize opportunity, but unfortunately, many have decided that we should equalize outcome.

Off the scale on BS statements and views that he cannot back up with facts

Then wanting to fit in on the CF by posting pics of the family and other " hey I'm what I say I am"

Problem is Paul. It's to late

You have demonstrated yourself as a liar and fraud here. You should fold your tent and head to another part of the desert.

"School should be a means to equalize opportunity, but unfortunately, many have decided that we should equalize outcome."

So true, Classic "cry wolf" scenario. Paul's cries mean nothing.

Matt

This rapper is just this: He's entertainment, and apparently successful. Good for him. But I see a lot of other faces in his presentation, and hopefully a bunch of those faces are learning what they want to do with their lives both in terms of making a living and contributing to society. Because without people learning his little presentation and you-tube career path wouldn't be possible.

Learning to learn is really valuable.

Learning to web search and read a few links... Is not learning to learn. That opens a different can of worms, but felt an important distinction.

And RK, if my lying has so offended you, how must you feel about trump? The guy knows no other language but falsehoods and lies.

Boy, 13, Arrested, Cuffed And Dragged From School Over #MeToo Allegations

Chadwick Moore // Editor-in-Chief // 9.20.18

In a scene from #MeToo meets The Crucible, four female students have accused an eighth grade boy of sexual assault after he refused to apologize for going against political correctness.

It started off an ordinary day for eighth grader Keith Bailey until he was summoned by administrators into the vice principal’s office at a Colorado Springs, Colo. middle school. He was confused and shaken. Keith had never been in trouble at school before, save for one minor incident months ago when he made an inappropriate remark that a fellow student “looked like a school shooter.” This time, it was much more serious.

For over two hours on Wednesday afternoon, alone in her office, the vice principal grilled Keith. “He said they kept asking him the same things over and over. They were just intimidating him, asking him the same thing in different ways, asking what he did to these girls and why he did it to them. ‘Why did you do it, what did you do, when did you do it,'” Keith’s father, Dennis Bailey, says. “They were vague the whole time. They never asked anything specific.”

Only after the two hour inquisition did the school phone Keith’s parents to let them know he was being suspended. But before they did that, they called the police. By the time Keith’s father showed up at the school, his son was being cuffed and put into the back of a police car as a crowd of students stood by ogling the scene.

According to Keith and his family, it all started a week ago when Keith and his friends were sitting around his house talking about online anonymity. Keith decided to change his Snapchat avatar into a black Bitmoji character. One of his friends, a girl, immediately noticed and within minutes told him he needed to change it back. She said it was insensitive and racist for a white person to use a black character as an avatar. Keith, stubborn as any eighth grader, laughed it off and said he wasn’t going to change it. The next day at school the girl, according to Keith, then started telling everyone he was a racist. The harassment and accusations persisted for days. Other students began threatening to beat up Keith, saying they were going to jump him after school for being ‘racist.’ Then the girl and three other female classmates took it to the next level, appearing to take a page from the Feinstein handbook on how to destroy your political enemies, they appeared before the vice principal to accuse Keith of sexual harassment and assault stemming back to the summer.

Dennis Bailey with his son Keith.

Keith had been friends with two of the girls. They attended youth group together at their church. “They hang out all the time. If he had been maliciously touching them since back in the summer, then they wouldn’t be going out of their way to walk by our house to go to school together. They go to youth group together, they carpool together. To any reasonable person, I’d think that these allegations would be obviously ridiculous, but apparently there aren’t any reasonable people anymore,” Dennis says.

Keith is an A and B student, plays football, takes advanced math classes, is well-liked by his teachers, and loves attending church. One of the girls, according to Keith, identities as a “feminist.” “He’s pretty scared. I was scared. He was crying when they arrested him. We’ve never been close to anything like this. We don’t know anybody criminal. It’s not something we ever thought we’d have to do deal with,” Dennis, 32, who works as a plumber, says. “I think the whole political climate is what is motivating this. Anytime you disagree with somebody, now you accuse them of sexual assault and automatically they’re a victim and you’re a monster. It’s so highly publicized now, that’s just the answer.”

After the arrest, Dennis stayed back at the school while his son was taken to the police station to be finger-printed and have his mug shot taken. But neither school administrators nor the police would tell Keith or his parents the exact nature of the allegations. He was charged with unlawful sexual conduct and harassment, which comes with a maximum sentence of two years in a juvenile detention center, and the family must wait until a court date on Oct. 27 to learn what, exactly, the girls claim Keith did to them. But a clue emerged the night before when one of the girls’ parents phoned the Baileys.

“Her mother gave us a call and said she just found out that Keith had been inappropriately touching her daughter and she just wanted to let us know. She said, ‘I know Keith is a good kid, maybe he just went down the wrong path.’ She obviously believed her daughter. But she said it happened at the football game last week. The problem with that is, my wife was at the football game the whole time. My son was there with his girlfriend and my wife didn’t want him unattended, so she had eyes on him the whole time. My wife tells this girl’s mother, ‘that’s funny, I was there watching the whole time, he didn’t leave my sight and he was no where near your daughter,'” Dennis recalls. “He was hanging out with his girlfriend, he wasn’t running around molesting other girls.” The mother then changed the story, saying it must have been a different football game.

The Baileys have met with a lawyer and started a legal defense fund for their son. After Keith’s five day school suspension is up, the school has the option to extend it another five days, or to expel Keith entirely. But after the humiliation Keith suffered, his parents are already looking to enroll him in a new school. The other students, they say, already assume he is guilty after watching him put in the back of a police car.

“It blew my mind. my son is not even mature enough to have done anything like that maliciously. I don’t think it’s in his realm of mental capacity at this point in his life. That they are demonizing him as some sort of malicious predator blows my mind. I don’t even think his mind is capable of being predatory,” Dennis says.

The Crucible-like scenario has the Bailey’s reeling. “We are all on edge. I’m furious personally. I’m furious at these kids, and at their parents for allowing them to do something like this. I’m furious at the school for not even seeming like they are giving him a chance to defend himself, and the way they tried to intimidate him. It seems really shady how they wouldn’t call us until two hours after they started interrogating him,” Dennis says.

He sees the whole terrifying situation as trickling down from the way all the adults on television appear to be treating each other these days. “What 13 year old girl doesn’t love drama? I imagine that’s all they see it as. Let’s stir up some drama. What they don’t realize is now he is facing criminal charges. I hope these girls did this without truly understanding the repercussions of their actions. I think the #metoo thing has gotten played out so much, that they see it as a way to get what they want. It’s a quick way to demonize somebody. I hope they didn’t foresee what the actual ramifications would be.”

Link to his fund, I want to donate.