Moultrie Products
401K performance so far
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Contributors to this thread:
kyrob 07-Oct-18
KsRancher 07-Oct-18
NvaGvUp 08-Oct-18
bigeasygator 08-Oct-18
kyrob 08-Oct-18
bigeasygator 08-Oct-18
NvaGvUp 08-Oct-18
NvaGvUp 08-Oct-18
kyrob 08-Oct-18
Mint 08-Oct-18
bigeasygator 08-Oct-18
bigeasygator 08-Oct-18
NvaGvUp 08-Oct-18
NvaGvUp 08-Oct-18
NvaGvUp 08-Oct-18
bigeasygator 08-Oct-18
NvaGvUp 09-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 09-Oct-18
IdyllwildArcher 09-Oct-18
Bowfreak 09-Oct-18
Mint 10-Oct-18
bigeasygator 10-Oct-18
HA/KS 10-Oct-18
Norseman 10-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 10-Oct-18
slade 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 10-Oct-18
JL 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
Norseman 10-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 10-Oct-18
Mike the Carpenter 10-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 10-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 10-Oct-18
JL 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
Pig Doc 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 10-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 11-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-18
bigeasygator 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
bigeasygator 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
bigeasygator 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
Bowbender 11-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
BowSniper 11-Oct-18
BowSniper 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
Bowbender 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 11-Oct-18
Mike the Carpenter 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 11-Oct-18
bigeasygator 11-Oct-18
Will 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
HDE 11-Oct-18
buckhammer 11-Oct-18
Rocky 11-Oct-18
JL 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 11-Oct-18
JTV 11-Oct-18
Mike the Carpenter 11-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-18
K Cummings 11-Oct-18
HDE 11-Oct-18
RK 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
Norseman 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
Rocky 11-Oct-18
Pig Doc 11-Oct-18
HDE 11-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 11-Oct-18
JL 11-Oct-18
HDE 11-Oct-18
Rocky 12-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 12-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 12-Oct-18
HDE 12-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 12-Oct-18
K Cummings 12-Oct-18
sleepyhunter 12-Oct-18
Will 12-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 12-Oct-18
JL 12-Oct-18
Pig Doc 12-Oct-18
K Cummings 12-Oct-18
Pig Doc 12-Oct-18
K Cummings 12-Oct-18
Rocky 12-Oct-18
Pig Doc 12-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 12-Oct-18
TD 12-Oct-18
K Cummings 12-Oct-18
K Cummings 12-Oct-18
Rocky 12-Oct-18
TD 12-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 12-Oct-18
Pig Doc 12-Oct-18
K Cummings 12-Oct-18
K Cummings 12-Oct-18
Pig Doc 12-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 13-Oct-18
K Cummings 13-Oct-18
Rocky 13-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 13-Oct-18
K Cummings 13-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 13-Oct-18
MK111 13-Oct-18
K Cummings 13-Oct-18
Rocky 13-Oct-18
Grey Ghost 13-Oct-18
JL 13-Oct-18
K Cummings 15-Oct-18
From: kyrob
07-Oct-18
Just curious how your 401K is doing this year? Most of my money is with a big well known outfit that is sucking wind this year. Been in the negatives since January. I am none to thrilled with their performance as I will owe them several thousand dollars for "taking care" of my investments. The one I do myself at work is averaging 7 percent to the positive side so far this year. I have a meeting with them this week and can't wait to hear how they will spin it to make me think I am doing good. Are they just having a bad year or is it time to try it all on my own.

From: KsRancher
07-Oct-18
My 401k thru my employer is +10.8% on return so far this year

From: NvaGvUp
08-Oct-18
Are you sure it's 401(k), not a rollover IRA with money that used to be in a 401(k)?

Because based upon what you wrote, it doesn't look like a 401(k) to me.

From: bigeasygator
08-Oct-18
YTD return for me on my 401k this year is 2.19%.

The big US indexes are in the 6-7% YTD.

From: kyrob
08-Oct-18
You are correct Nva, it is a traditional ira that is doing bad. Still, I expect they should have a higher return than I should because that is their job. Am I wrong to think this way?

From: bigeasygator
08-Oct-18

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
"Still, I expect they should have a higher return than I should because that is their job. Am I wrong to think this way?"

Yes and no. Personally, I'm an Efficient Market Hypothesis guy which leads me to believe that anyone who says they can consistently beat the market is likely not telling the whole truth. Building on that, I'm not a believer in very active management and I prefer a more passive approach - though obviously I prefer some management when new information comes in.

How different are the investment portfolios you both are managing? Different classes of assets perform differently year-in and year-out, and you're not going to get the same performance out of a each. In other words, no single investment type (REITs, Large Cap, Small Cap, Emerging Market, etc) has ever consistently performed "the best" (see chart above)...so I'd simply ask if that is a trend or a one year anomaly? If it's a consistent trend, then yeah, I'd ask what you are paying for. If it's not, IMO it's to be expected.

From: NvaGvUp
08-Oct-18
kyrob,

Questions for you:

How did you choose the firm you are working with?

How did you choose the individual broker/advisor?

How old is the broker/advisor?

How long has your broker/advisor been in the business?

How long has he/she been with the firm?

Have you run a 'BrokerCheck' on this person?

Did this person make a serious effort to get to know you prior to making investment recommendations?

Did this person make an effort to educate you re. investing and investing wisely?

You mentioned " I am none to thrilled with their performance as I will owe them several thousand dollars for "taking care" of my investments."

This appears that you're saying you pay them after a certain period of time. I've been in the business for 43 years and while there are several ways a broker/advisor can be compensated, I've never heard of the method you seem to be using.

From: NvaGvUp
08-Oct-18
BEG,

There are absolutely active managers out there who beat the passive management system and some which do so by a mile over time.

From: kyrob
08-Oct-18
I went with them due to recommendation from friends. Age is about 40 and he has been with them for 7 or 8 years. No broker check. Never heard of one to be honest. He will answer any questions I have and is free with any info and knowledge that he has. He seems to know what he’s talking about and explains how investing works. I have to pay them 1.35% a year for taking care of my investments. He has told me roughly 1 out of 7 years will be a negative year. This is the 3rd year I have been with them so who knows. My employer uses Merrill Lynch for our 401k and we have about 40 funds to choose from. I picked 4 and am getting a positive return so far. Shouldn’t a big national outfit be able to do the same?

From: Mint
08-Oct-18
From 10/6/17 to 10/5/17 I'm 15.17% YTD Thru 9/30/18 23.78%

From: bigeasygator
08-Oct-18
"There are absolutely active managers out there who beat the passive management system and some which do so by a mile over time."

I know there are. Never said there weren't. Statistically it's almost impossible for someone not to do that. The EMH guy in me says that there's quite a bit of luck and good fortune in those cases as well, and I bet they still get beat by the market at times.

Mint, 24% YTD in this market is phenomenal.

From: bigeasygator
08-Oct-18
"Shouldn’t a big national outfit be able to do the same?"

Depends. What kind of holdings are they invested in? What kind of advice have you given them about how aggressive you want your portfolio to be, how much risk you want to take on, and how diversified you want it?

The holdings that have been killing me this year are my US Debt, Emerging Market, and Large Cap International Indexes. My US Equity Indexes (Large Cap, Mid Cap, Total Market) are doing much better. But I want the diversification and I want the risk profile I have. It means some years I lag behind the market, some years I crush the market.

From: NvaGvUp
08-Oct-18

NvaGvUp's Link
kyrob,

'BrokerCheck' is a way for you to see the regulatory history of a broker, including disciplinary actions.

https://brokercheck.finra.org

It's not perfect because it does not include settlements made by a firm to a client if no formal complaint was filed with a regulatory agency. But it's a good place to start.

From: NvaGvUp
08-Oct-18
"Mint, 24% YTD in this market is phenomenal."

Compared to what?

Those numbers are based on 'cherry picked' dates, so are meaningless without comparing them to a comparable investment performance.

From: NvaGvUp
08-Oct-18
Mint,

'From 10/6/17 to 10/5/17 I'm 15.17% YTD Thru 9/30/18 23.78%"

Check your dates, because your second date (10/05/2017) is BEFORE your first date (10/06/2017).

From: bigeasygator
08-Oct-18
"Compared to what?"

Compared to the broader market performance. He said YTD his return is 24%. YTD, the DJIA has returned 7%, the Russell 2000 has returned 6%, the S&P 500 has returned 8%. The total market funds I've looked at have returned about 9% YTD. Sure, you can cherry pick stocks and funds that have returned more.

08-Oct-18
I am with BEG, few active managers have beat the market consistently over time, meaning the long run.

From: NvaGvUp
09-Oct-18
Again, compared to WHAT???

What is his asset allocation?

How much risk is he taking to get those returns?

What, therefore, is his risk-adjusted rate of return and how does that compare to similar portfolios with his asset allocation?

From: Grey Ghost
09-Oct-18
My wife and I have matching SEP IRAs. I chose the funds and allocate the money to each. We've been invested in the same 4 funds for over 10 years. 3 are targeted stock-based funds, the other is a bond-based fund. For years, I was equally allocated in each until recently moving a higher percentage to the bond fund for safety.

Here are the 10-year annualized average returns for each fund including principal and reinvested dividends.

1. Blue Chip - 15.50%

2. Health Science - 18.94%

3. Communications and Tech - 17.89%

4. Bond Fund - 8.24%

YTD, the top 3 funds are all over 20%. I'll let Kyle figure out the "risk-adjusted" part. Overall, I've been very pleased with the growth. Now, I'm more concerned with protecting it.

Matt

09-Oct-18
Just under 8% each of the past two years.

From: Bowfreak
09-Oct-18
I have no idea....I almost blindly participate. I know it makes money as I casually look at the statements but I am not too concerned about it as I am a novice in this area and anything I make will be a supplement to my pension.

I realize its not what most on here would answer but truth be told, I don't care that much. I will have enough to live on when I decide to retire and if I won't be able to make it I will just keep working. :)

From: Mint
10-Oct-18
"From 10/6/17 to 10/5/17 I'm 15.17% YTD Thru 9/30/18 23.78%"

Sorry, should have been 10/6/17 to 10/5/18

Pure luck and risky since I'm in one fund this year in this 401K/PSP

Lord Abbett Growth Leaders Fund

From: bigeasygator
10-Oct-18
Today didn’t help. I think I missed Trump’s tweet about how he was in power for the two biggest point drops in the history of the Dow...

(Yes, I know point drops are meaningless on their own; yes, Trump has little to nothing to do with this...but he does like to take credit for things without providing any context and for which he has nothing to do with).

From: HA/KS
10-Oct-18
Without the Fed propping it up, the DOW would have been a disaster during the obma years.

Raising rates has multiple impacts. One is that stocks don't like it.

The other is that it is disastrous for the federal budget due to interest on $20 trillion.

I have no proof that the fed is politically motivated, but there are some reasons to wonder.

From: Norseman
10-Oct-18
Ouch! And Double ouch! &@$%*€¥#!$!!!!!

From: Grey Ghost
10-Oct-18
I don’t even wanna look.

Matt

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
What a difference a day makes.

Touting our investment prowess one day, jumping out the window the next.

Too funny...

KPC

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
Must suck to have your financial future tied up in a shell game.

From: sleepyhunter
10-Oct-18
Good buying opportunity today for stocks. Market will turn around. I'm not worried.

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
It's only a buying opportunity if you have cash. How many people with most of their net worth in a 401K have a significant amount of cash to take advantage of this "opportunity"?

From: Grey Ghost
10-Oct-18
"What a difference a day makes."

No touting here. I knew I was at risk, and acknowledged it. I just haven't heard any ideas that I like better than what I'm doing.

Matt

From: slade
10-Oct-18
Thank god the Kaepernick effect saved Nike shares.............................................

Colin Kaepernick files trademark for image of his hair and face

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
Try cellulosic ethanol. Baaaaaahaaaaa!

From: Grey Ghost
10-Oct-18
'Try cellulosic ethanol. Baaaaaahaaaaa!"

Please share how your investments went today, and we'll compare.

Matt

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
My investments did great today. Less than 5% of my net worth is exposed to what happened in the markets today. I could have invested in stage coaches and steam engines and done better than cellulosic ethanol. I tried to warn you 3 years ago that cellulosic ethanol was a bad investment but of course you knew better than me. Back then you posted a list of 12 plants to show how the industry was booming. All of them are shut down. Oops.

From: sleepyhunter
10-Oct-18
""How many people with most of their net worth in a 401K have a significant amount of cash to take advantage of this "opportunity"?""

Mr. PigDoc,

I can't answer for anyone but myself, but yes I do have money on hand to buy stocks if I want to and they're cheap enough. I do have the bulk of my money in a 401k and it did lose value today. It will rebound and then some. I'm not to worried about it.

From: JL
10-Oct-18
The wife is our financial guru. We've done real well over the long haul with different Roth IRA's, a govt TSP, straight mutual funds and tinkering around with individual stocks....although one of those I hung around too long and am waiting to dollar cost avg it to get out of it. There are always ups and downs with the markets....ya just ride it out for the long haul and don't panic.

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
OK sleepy. Tell us all how much stock buying you did today.

From: Norseman
10-Oct-18
Pig Doc do you or have you had a 401k as part of your investment portfolio?

From: Grey Ghost
10-Oct-18
" My investments did great today. Less than 5% of my net worth is exposed to what happened in the markets today. I could have invested in stage coaches and steam engines and done better than cellulosic ethanol. I tried to warn you 3 years ago that cellulosic ethanol was a bad investment but of course you knew better than me. Back then you posted a list of 12 plants to show how the industry was booming. All of them are shut down. Oops."

LOL. Do you really think renewable energy is the only thing I'm invested in? Yes cellulosic ethanol has been disappointing. You were right, I was wrong, so far.

My offer to compare stock-based investments remains. I didn't inherit my retirement.

Matt

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
Yes. I put money faithfully in 401K plans for years. It's all been rolled into IRAs and other investments. I believe they serve a purpose, especially for young folks early in their careers. At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA.

From: sleepyhunter
10-Oct-18
""OK sleepy. Tell us all how much stock buying you did today.""

No thanks PigDoc. I doubt if anyone here would care about my finances other than myself. In short, stocks I watch and own were a cheaper buy today. I did buy stock today. You'll have to take my word for it.

10-Oct-18
I bought $10 in Mega Millions lottery tickets today. Gonna cash in big this Friday night and all my worries will be a thing of the past. Of course I know that is Horse $hit, but I can’t win if J don’t play. Already decided that when I win, I’m not going to quit work, BUT I sure will have a whole new attitude towards it.

From: Grey Ghost
10-Oct-18
" At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA."

I agree, nor am I. So what are we arguing about?. Corn fuel? Please.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
10-Oct-18

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
"I didn't inherit my retirement."

If you are insinuating I did, you are dead wrong. I grew up dirt poor and worked hard for every cent I have.

"My offer to compare stock-based investments remains."

I'm not interested in comparing stock-based investments as they are a drop in the bucket of my overall portfolio. I never even look at how my stocks are doing.

My commodity trading account was up big today. It's up over 400% in the past 18 months. My private equity investments are up over 100% in the last 18 months and were not at all affected by what happened today, nor were my real estate investments.

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
”At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA.”

Why?

You do realize that a 401(k) or an IRA is nothing but a tax qualified account that holds any number of underlying investments from cash, to bonds, to mutual funds, to stocks, to real estate, to commodities, to precious metals, to currencies, to pretty much anything you can invest in outside of those vehicles.

KPC

10-Oct-18
Before the peak, but still very high, we moved all 401/IRA into fixed. Thanks Fed!

At that age that we no longer need to take the risk.

Big believer in the market for 35+ years though, and glad we were.

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
KPC. Because I'm smart enough to invest in other things with higher return and lower risk without having to pay an "advisor". I would rather pick my own private equity in businesses that I understand. I would rather select my own real estate investments. How many commodity accounts did over 400% in the last 18 months. Why would I pay someone to do what I can do better?

From: Grey Ghost
10-Oct-18
"My commodity trading account was up big today. It's up over 400% in the past 18 months. My private equity investments are up over 100% in the last 18 months and were not at all affected by what happened today, nor were my real estate investments."

Good for you! How'd your stocks do today?

Matt

From: JL
10-Oct-18
Just for the sake of general conversation.....the timeliest investments we ever made was in EE US Savings Bonds. At the time...around 1986-ish.....we had a little nest egg that we didn't know what to do with it. We were not real experienced investors back then. We did have a mutual fund that we still have today albeit with a new name. Anyway....the Savings Bonds Officer came around at muster one day hawking savings bonds and said you can double your money in 10 years guaranteed. That was all I heard and thought that sounds good to us so we went all in on EE savings bonds. Low and behold....10 years later when they matured, we cashed out after doubling our money. That was a great springboard for us at that time in our young lives.

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
"Because I'm smart enough to invest in other things with higher return and lower risk without having to pay an "advisor".

Then surely you'd be smart enough to know that you don't have to pay an advisor to invest in either an IRA or a 401(k). Furthermore, neither an IRA or a 401(k) is an "investment." They are both tax qualified vehicles that hold "investments," including the ones you mentioned.

KPC

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
Duh. As pointed out above, I have had 401Ks and currently have IRAs.

In the last 18 months my IRAs have returned around 40%. My private equity investments over 100% and commodity accounts over 400%. So why should I have more in my IRAs?

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
"In the last 18 months my IRAs have returned around 40%. My private equity investments over 100% and commodity accounts over 400% "

That tells me that as smart as you think you are, apparently you have your IRA invested in the wrong things. That's like blaming the grocery bag when you filled it with the wrong items. What is stopping you from investing your IRA assets in private equity and commodities?

Duh.

KPC

From: Pig Doc
10-Oct-18
If you read and comprehended my posts above you would know that I have less than 5% of my net worth in IRAs. I really don't even follow them.

I know you make your living schlepping investment vehicles so I understand your motivations. I'm retired with zero debt and an 8 figure net worth. When you have achieved that please come back and tell me again how stupid I am.

10-Oct-18
Kevin,

You know the answer to your question. Diversify for risk/reward. Most of us would take 40%.

PD is either very bright, very lucky, or both. Good job PD!

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
"If you read and comprehended my posts above..."

I did both, which is why I pointed out that the following statement...

"" At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA."

...borders on the absurd.

"I'm retired with zero debt and an 8 figure net worth. When you have achieved that please come back and tell me again how stupid I am."

Wonderful. I haven't had any debt for close to 20 years, net worth is in the mid 7 figures, and since I was 50 I work because I want to.

Big effing deal.

And yes, the statement you made was "stupid."

KPC

10-Oct-18
Boys,

Get your rulers out;)

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
"You know the answer to your question. Diversify for risk/reward."

Of course I understand diversification, but that wasn't the question.

You can literally invest in anything you want...inside or outside of an IRA. Which is what makes the following statement so ignorant.

"At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA."

KPC

10-Oct-18
Kevin,

Since you do it for a living you already know each investor is different. Don't piss into the wind on this one. I have corresponded with PD before, very intelligent and self made.

I can think of reasons one would not want funds tied to a formal retirement vehicle, and sure you can also. Especially with that amount of worth to work with.

You are both impressive, but I have a nephew that at a minimum has built more than twice you combined, and is still in his 40s. Guess what, puts his pants on the same way I do. Character is what counts. PD a Naval Academy grad, he has character and so do you. I respect you both.

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
No need for a ruler here Frank.

I feel no need to boast about money. Boors boast about money...which is why I said "big effing deal."

If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times. Never take investment advice from someone on the internet.

Same applies to this thread.

KPC

10-Oct-18
I never do. Satisfied that Robin will be fine, did my job. Always someone richer.

We have successful families on both sides. Robin and I are the least well off, and since we are good we find comfort that the rest are even better.

I just need enough to bribe St. Peter. ;)

From: K Cummings
10-Oct-18
"I can think of reasons one would not want funds tied to a formal retirement vehicle, and sure you can also."

That's the point Frank. An IRA is NOT a formal investment vehicle. If you want to fund your IRA with a passbook savings account, you can do that. If you want to fund it with commodities, you can do that too. Hell, if you want to fund it with bitcoin, you can even do that.

An IRA (Individual Retirement Arrangement) is nothing but an tax qualified account that holds whatever investments that you choose to put in it.

KPC

10-Oct-18
But it is an investment of record.

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
Ok Frank, let me ask you this.

You said...

"Before the peak, but still very high, we moved all 401/IRA into fixed."

What specifically did you move them to? Did you expose them all to income tax at that time?

KPC

11-Oct-18
Kevin,

Yes I understand how IRAs work. So does PD. Again, there are legitimate reasons, especially with significant wealth, that an investor may not want to place assets in one. You may find that absurd, but when someone with a minimum of $10M decides to take a different approach, I think I will pass on questioning their intellect and wisdom. But that's just me.

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
As is often the case Frank, I can understand why you don't want to answer my question.

Even so, for the benefit of anyone reading this thread, I will explain why I pushed back as hard as I did.

My comprehension skills are just fine, so lets take a look at some of the things Pig Doc actually said.

"Must suck to have your financial future tied up in a shell game."

"At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA."

"I'm not interested in comparing stock-based investments as they are a drop in the bucket of my overall portfolio."

"Less than 5% of my net worth is exposed to what happened in the markets today."

"In the last 18 months my IRAs have returned around 40%. My private equity investments over 100% and commodity accounts over 400% "

The implication was that he was not "comfortable" with a large portion of his net worth being invested in "stock-based investments," because he believes that other investments perform better with less risk.

That's fine, and might well be accurate, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether those investments are part of a qualified plan or not. Virtually any investment that he holds outside of an IRA, can be held inside an IRA. An IRA has to do with tax treatment, not investment style or asset allocation.

As you discovered for yourself, one's risk tolerance and asset allocation might well be different as they grow older and retire, but to insinuate that anyone should not hold those investments, whatever they happen to be, in a qualified account, because the qualified account is somehow responsible for poor performance or unacceptable risk is just plain ignorant.

I too have more of my net worth outside of qualified plans than I do inside qualified plans, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the relative risk of a qualified plan. It has to do with the maximum limits of what could be invested in qualified plans over the years.

Had Pig Doc said...

At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a stock based investment.

as opposed to...

"At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA."

...I would have never said a thing.

Unfortunately, words mean things and those words are easily misunderstood...often with disastrous results.

Case in point:

As I described one other time, I had a client come to me one time in a panic. She had retired with a sizeable 401(k). Some "well meaning" person told her that she shouldn't leave her assets (about 800,000.00) in her 401(k) because it was just too "risky," and that she should control those assets herself. She did exactly what this "well meaning" person suggested by cashing out her 401(k) and investing it in variety of bonds, CDs and other conservative investments.

All was fine and dandy until she had her taxes done and found out that she had to report that 800,000.00 as ordinary income, and the resulting tax burden was astronomical. That one moronic move, had we not been able to rectify it, would have cost her over a third of her retirement assets.

Fortunately, we were able to re-title her investments as an individual IRA, treat the 800,000.00 distribution as a rollover, and she saved over quarter of a million dollars.

Yes, words mean things...especially to the IRS.

This is precisely why anyone that would give investment advice over the internet to people they don't know is completely irresponsible (among other things), and anyone that would take that advice, over the internet from people they don't know, is just plain stupid.

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
11-Oct-18
Well, that escalated quickly!!

I think I’ll buy some stock in Piggy’s empire. LOL.

Matt

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-18
In all fairness, it would be beneficial to listen to the financial opinions of NVA, KPC since money management is their business, rather than from a person who "" jacks off pigs "" and then makes bacon out of them.

From: bigeasygator
11-Oct-18
Great post KPC, and fully agree with you. I'd also add on that most of the American public is not positioned to invest in private equity. Most PE funds require investors to be accredited. Additionally, liquidity is very important to lots of people and that's something that PE doesn't provide nearly as much of as other investments. The reality is that the most accessible, most liquid form of investments that have the potential to provide significant returns to the average American are publicly traded stocks.

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
Also "in all fairness" sleepy, I have no doubt that Pig Doc has done well with his personal investments. Heaven knows, he takes every opportunity to tell us just how well he's done.

I have never been one to suggest, or even imply, that the only way to invest assets is through an advisor or in any one asset class. It's not. Far from it. For those willing to educate themselves, successful money management or retirement planning really isn't rocket science. The same is true for building a house.

However, to come on here and suggest that paying a contractor to build your house is stupid, or the way I built my house in northern Michigan is suitable for someone in a hurricane or flood zone, or that specific building codes don't really mean anything, would not only be ignorant, but very dangerous.

Regardless of one's profession, professionals don't give advice without knowing all the facts...or at least as many as possible. The same holds true for investing, building a house, or "jacking off pigs."

KPC

From: bigeasygator
11-Oct-18
FWIW KPC, if I had to guess those PE and commodity investments aren't free of fees. Most PE funds charge 1% (plus carried interest) and hedge funds usually charge a bit more.

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
Of course they aren't. NO investment is free of fees or risk, whether it be market risk, interest rate risk, liquidity risk or inflation risk.

I will go out on a limb here and say that private equity, commodities, convertible arbitrage, and other types alternative investments/strategies are not suitable for the average retail investor.

KPC

From: bigeasygator
11-Oct-18
Not suitable...nor accessible.

11-Oct-18
Kevin,

As so often, your question was answered, just not the way you wanted. As is also so often, you try and respond in a manner that you think makes you look like the smartest guy in the room.

As you know, I answered in a way that suggested you quit being an ass, which obviously comes naturally to you. Nice try being critical of PD by doing the same thing.

Educationally and professional experience having been a paid commercial portfolio manager, I know enough to recognize your retail experience is not in the same hemisphere as to what PD is talking about. It is obvious he doesn't suffer fools well. I could learn a lot from him.

I have a seven figure net worth, and the majority is not in tax advantage retirement vehicles either. As you said, big deal. As others said, there are reasons.

Go argue with a post now.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
Yep. I don't suffer fools. Never have. And KPC is king of fools. What a clown.

You all can do it your way and I'll do it mine. That's worked great for me and I don't have to take advice from arrogant dopes.

And yes, I've built two houses without a contractor. Both are stunning. Some people have a wide variety of talents. Some are pencil pushing nerds that need their hands held for everything they do.

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-18
""You all can do it my way and I'll do it mine.""

Huh?

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
Was your vulgar, self aggrandizing PM supposed to impress me or intimidate me?

For the record, it accomplished neither.

KPC

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
"Great post KPC, and fully agree with you. I'd also add on that most of the American public is not positioned to invest in private equity. Most PE funds require investors to be accredited. Additionally, liquidity is very important to lots of people and that's something that PE doesn't provide nearly as much of as other investments. The reality is that the most accessible, most liquid form of investments that have the potential to provide significant returns to the average American are publicly traded stocks."

Good points BEG, for the average investor. I'm not the average investor. I don't buy private equity funds, I invest directly in companies in my field of expertise that I have thoroughly vetted. Liquidity is not an issue for me. I can do this without help from some parasitic pencil neck that makes their living skimming off the funds of widows and retirees. It's not that hard, even for someone "stupid" like me".

From: Grey Ghost
11-Oct-18
Piggy calling KPC an "arrogant dope".

I do love irony.

Matt

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
"I do love irony."

No kidding. For someone who questions someone else's comprehension skills, his own sure seem to be lacking (PhD's and all).

I'd like for Pig Doc to point out where I said he was "stupid."

KPC

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
What irony? I'm arrogant, but not a dope.

Do you really expect me to take investment advice from someone that has had a small fraction of the financial success I've had? That's like taking sex advice from a priest.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
KPC, you said my statement was stupid. Just another one of your poorly disguised insults.

I just calculated my 10 year return on a $100,000 private equity investment I made in 2007. It's 20,000%. Yes, $100,000 became $20,000,000 in 10 years. I'm sure you or some other parasitic pencil neck could have done better. If I wanted advice from an imbecile I would have asked for it.

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
"Do you really expect me to take investment advice from someone that has had a small fraction of the financial success I've had?"

There is that lack of comprehension thing rearing it's head again. Can you point out where anyone here has given you any"investment advice?"

I know I sure haven't.

Would you like to try for strike three?

KPC

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
And where did I say anyone here had given me investment advice. Two can play word games.

I think you are the one that just struck out. LOL.

From: Bowbender
11-Oct-18
"Liquidity is not an issue for me. I can do this without help from some parasitic pencil neck that makes their living skimming off the funds of widows and retirees."

HFW, what was that you said about character?

WTF is wrong with you people? Honest to God, we're now in a dick measuring contest over who has greater net worth. Assailing each others professions from stating "jacking off pigs" to calling a successful financial adviser a "parasite".

Yeah, we get it. Piggy's been successful. Congrats. Seriously, congrats. Don't need to be a dick and remind everyone how rich you are. Kevin, you've been successful has well. 'Grats to you. But for heavens sake stop wallowing in the minutiae. Pretty sure that everyone that's has investments like Piggys, NGU, BEG's all know that.

And for the rest....don't make me get the wooden spoon out.

From: Grey Ghost
11-Oct-18
If anything, Piggy has proven that money doesn’t buy happiness…or character.

For a guy who claims to not “suffer fools”, he sure seems intent on engaging with and belittling them.

Matt

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
"KPC, you said my statement was stupid. Just another one of your poorly disguised insults."

Strike three. That didn't take long.

Lot's of very intelligent people make stupid statements. That doesn't make them stupid.

Maybe I should have said the statement you made was ignorant. Would that make you feel better?

KPC

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
Although I haven't "jacked off pigs" since I was paying my way through college I would argue that is a more noble endeavor than fleecing old people.

From: BowSniper
11-Oct-18
Wow... some here argue endlessly over parsed nuance like it's an illness (*or at least addiction).

From: BowSniper
11-Oct-18
Wow... some here argue endlessly over parsed nuance like it's an illness (*or at least addiction).

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
"WTF is wrong with you people? Honest to God, we're now in a dick measuring contest over who has greater net worth. Assailing each others professions from stating "jacking off pigs" to calling a successful financial adviser a "parasite". "

For the record, I don't brag about money or net worth. Never have, never will. As I said before, boors brag about money. I only referred to it because it was called into question as it relates to knowing what I was talking about. Like I said, "big effing deal."

Furthermore, I never assailed anyone's profession. Never have, never will. I have no idea what Pig Doc did for a living, nor do I care. I only referenced "jacking off pigs" because another poster used that terminology in reference to his profession. And even then, it wasn't a slight in any way shape or form.

Let's at least keep it real.

KPC

From: Bowbender
11-Oct-18
Really, Kevin? You just can't let something drop. Ever. The "jacking off pigs" was a reference to Sleepy, not you. But hey, there's an argument on the Bowsite that needs to be won. Last man standing and all....

Keep it real indeed.

Carry on.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
"I haven't had any debt for close to 20 years, net worth is in the mid 7 figures, and since I was 50 I work because I want to."

Nah, "I don't brag about money or net worth". Let's see you spin this one spin doctor.

I admit I'm proud of my success and am not afraid to talk about it. Call me arrogant. At least I'm not a lying spin doctor. The guy does it on every thread.

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
"The "jacking off pigs" was a reference to Sleepy, not you."

I stand corrected and apologize.

I'm fully capable of doing that when appropriate.

Indeed, carry on.

:)

KPC

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
Pig Doc said:

"I'm retired with zero debt and an 8 figure net worth. When you have achieved that please come back and tell me again how stupid I am."

KPC said:

"Wonderful. I haven't had any debt for close to 20 years, net worth is in the mid 7 figures, and since I was 50 I work because I want to. Big effing deal."

I hardly think a direct response to your specific request is bragging.

Strike four.

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
11-Oct-18
"I admit I'm proud of my success and am not afraid to talk about it. Call me arrogant."

Actually, I'd call that insecurity, not arrogance.

Matt

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
What are you a shrink now? Stick to your day job and making stupid investments.

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-18
"The "jacking off pigs" was a reference to Sleepy, not you."

A self admitted term from Mr. PD himself. He is now getting the argument he wanted so badly when he first posted on this thread. KPC, I'm jealous. I thought I was the only person who had the honor of getting an obscene PM from Mr. PD.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
Another 300 point drop so far today. Two day total over 1,000 points. Call your pencil pushing parasite and thank him for taking good care of your money. I'm sure sleepy took a big pile of that union money and took care of this great buying opportunity. LMAO!

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-18
The stock I bought yesterday is up today, thanks for asking. Hey also thanks for that obscene PM. I'm glad to be part of the team, looks like I spoke too soon. PD, your jealous insecurity is really getting the best of you on this thread. Very entertaining.

From: Grey Ghost
11-Oct-18
Piggy,

Now you're taking glee in other people's misfortune?

You, sir, are a miserable human being.

Matt

11-Oct-18
I’m just hopeful to one day be a Thousandaire.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
Where am I taking glee? You need to brush up on reading. I know it's hard.

And why would I be happy about the market dropping? I have less than 5% of my portfolio subject to this market drop but that's still probably more dollar exposure than you have in the market.

Love it how the pencil pushing parasites take credit for their great work when the market goes up but take no blame when the market tanks. I'm sure KPC is calling all his clients today and apologizing for his bad advice.

Down 480 for the day now.

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-18
Mr. PD, thanks for that 2nd pm. You're on a roll. I'm honored very descriptive.

From: Grey Ghost
11-Oct-18
"Love it how the pencil pushing parasites take credit for their great work when the market goes up but take no blame when the market tanks."

You mean like Trump does?

Matt

From: bigeasygator
11-Oct-18
”Good points BEG, for the average investor. I'm not the average investor.” We know. But most people are, and either are not comfortable with the risk or cannot afford it. So saying it “sucks” to invest in the “shell game” shows at best a complete lack of empathy.

From: Will
11-Oct-18
Long haul, long haul, long haul, long haul. That's what I tell myself on days like the last few. I'm no master investor, though a boss from when I was literally 14-15 years old used to say: "Over the long haul, the market will go up, think long term"... and that helps when it drops 1300 points in two days. It will build it back, in the long haul.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
Truth and empathy are often at odds BEG. I prefer the truth over some feel good bullcrap. Investing substantially all of your financial future in an investment vehicle that reacts wildly to whats in the news instead of reality makes no sense to me. If it does to you fine but don't expect me to cry a river of tears for you or anyone else making that decision.

I think it was dumb for the Federal Reserve to increase interest rates but it's also dumb that the market reacted so severely to a small increase in interest. Could the Federal Reserve be doing this to influence the elections? Could the global banking cartel be unhappy that Kavanaugh was appointed to the SCOTUS? I don't know but who wants their financial future to really on these external forces. Not me.

From: HDE
11-Oct-18
Aw hell, the democrats will win next month, impeach the Trump administration, and redirect everyone's portfolios to equalize wealth in this nation, shell game or not.

In the end we'll all be living on $35k per year, each to their needs, each to their abilities and all...

From: buckhammer
11-Oct-18
WOW.....it appears that Warren Buffett has some stiff competition out there.

From: Rocky
11-Oct-18
Pig,

Amassing 20M is no easy feat., pigs feet or otherwise. That is what I call bringing home the bacon. Good for you. I don't believe you need to further defend your position or explain anything to anybody about how you invest.

The Rock

From: JL
11-Oct-18
A random thought while following this thread. This thread kinda reminds me of the other threads on here about the possibility of a world record buck quietly hanging in someone's barn or man room and no one will know about it because the owner doesn't brag about it or keeps it to him/herself. Random point being....I would not be surprised if there are some very well-to-do members on here that do not brag or mention their wealth.....they just chuckle and go light a Cuban and sip some Moet and Chandon as their G-5 rolls down the runway.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
Probably sleepy. He must be some sort of financial genius. He posts above: "The stock I bought yesterday is up today, thanks for asking." So the stock that reacted negatively to the market yesterday, enough so that sleepy was compelled to buy it, magically went up today on more of the same bad news. He knows how to pick 'em. That story is right up there with Jack and the Beanstalk.

From: Grey Ghost
11-Oct-18
The market's reaction to fed rate hikes has become fairly predictable, IMO. We saw a similar 2-day drop last March when the rates were last hiked.

I think the advent of online trading, where any yahoo with a computer can make their own trades, has contributed to these irrational sell-offs. Savvy investors knew the rate hikes were coming. After all, the feds told us so, repeatedly. These investor wannabes hear about the hikes on the news, the day it happens, and they panic sell.

My prediction is the markets will bounce right back, just like they did last March.

Matt

From: JTV
11-Oct-18
up/down... dosnt bother me one bit .. (prefer up of course ..lol) ... this is what the market does ..... just roll with the punches ... the economy is still good and look for another 4%+ quarter ...

11-Oct-18
If I could make a better living jerking off pigs, I’d put my hammer down tomorrow.

11-Oct-18
Rocky,

That was classic, thanks. And I agree.

HDE, got the PM, thanks. Getting accepted is the hard part. I tried, did not happen.

Based on results, looks like the right decision was made.

Lots of millionaires next door.

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-18
PD, thanks for that free rent. I'm enjoying every minute.

From: K Cummings
11-Oct-18
" Investing substantially all of your financial future in an investment vehicle that reacts wildly to whats in the news instead of reality makes no sense to me."

Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether those, or any other investment, is held inside a qualified account. None. Zero. Nada.

So the following statement...

"At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA."

...simply makes no sense.

Which was my only point from the very beginning.

KPC

From: HDE
11-Oct-18
The ONLY way to become financially secure is to first decide you no longer want to keep owing people money at ANY intrest rate. When you learn to make interest work for you, you will start to make real money.

As long as your OK not owning anything, you will never pull ahead.

"I would not be surprised if there are some very well-to-do members on here that do not brag or mention their wealth."

Yep. Debt free since age 41, but who cares really anyway 'cept me...

11-Oct-18

your favorite poster's embedded Photo
your favorite poster's embedded Photo
There's always tweets, always. And this one aged well, huh?

From: RK
11-Oct-18
JL

Maybe the best post of this seemingly endless thread and spot on

To that point I have 7 clients that come hunt with me every year that are either close to being Billionaires or in three cases multi billionaires. Except for one each of them process the great quality of being humble, generous, kind and full of genuine class. Always willing to share advice without being condescending. Genuinely GREAT Men. Secure in themselves.

Something very lacking with some in this thread

It's like meeting celebrities or famous people. My first question or what I look for is are they nice people. The game fortune etc Is not the determining factor in what type of person they are

OK Continue on with the tape measure conversation

11-Oct-18
At this point in time under Obama the stock market had risen 38%; under trump the stock market has risen 23%. Under Obama over eight years stock market rose average of 32% per year; under trump it is 11.5% per year.

11-Oct-18
Why is the stock market dropping? Trump blames the Fed. Others blame Trump’s trade war with China. Baloney. The biggest reason is the moratorium on stock buybacks – a period starting two weeks before quarterly earnings are released during which companies don’t buy back their stock because they have important information about their earnings that’s not yet available to the public, and they want to avoid any whiff of insider-trading.

In most years this isn’t a big deal. But it is this year because stock buybacks have become so important to maintaining share prices. Goldman Sachs estimates that the 500 biggest American companies alone will spend $770 billion on stock buybacks in 2018. That’s up 44 percent from last year. So a temporary stoppage of buybacks could easily cause the market to plunge.

Remember that December’s huge tax cut for corporations has gone mostly into stock buybacks, as many of us had predicted -- not into employee wages or new investment.

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
"Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether those, or any other investment, is held inside a qualified account. None. Zero. Nada."

Except that you can't buy the investments that have worked best for me in a qualified account. Show me a commodity account held inside a qualified account that made 400% return in the past 18 months and I'll buy it. Show me a private equity opportunity that made 20,000% in the past 10 years that's available in a qualified account and I'll buy it.

From: Norseman
11-Oct-18
Where did you copy and paste that info from, Putz?

(Facepalm)

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
"PD, thanks for that free rent. I'm enjoying every minute."

My post suggested you are a liar sleepy. That's hardly "free rent", but go ahead and flatter yourself.

From: Rocky
11-Oct-18
A little wake up call. Being debt free is NOT the secret to success. As a matter of fact just the opposite applies. It may apply to the retired on a fixed income but if you remain in the game with both feet you best be carrying debt. If not start interviewing for a new accountant firm.

The Rock

The Rock

From: Pig Doc
11-Oct-18
Spot on Rocky. The most successful businessman I know started his business with virtually none of his own money. It was high risk so he took on high interest junk debt to get it started. Three years in he did a dividend recapitalization with virtually no equity in the business and raised $400M. He is now worth several hundred million. Had he not taken the risk and borrowed heavily he would have never created the hugely successful business he has today.

11-Oct-18
I really like the lucid Rocky!

Chad, is your friend's company in an IRA? LOL!

It is obvious some of us subscribe to the Dave Ramsey, 'The Millionaire Next Door' approach to building security. Given my level of risk aversion, I am comfortable with that.

Then there are others here who are at a level most of us will never have the guts to even try. I love their success stories. I share them with my students. Capitalism, it makes dreams come true!

From: HDE
11-Oct-18
Rocky - debt free doesn't necessarily mean you owe absolutly nothing. Debt free means you get to choose what debt you have in order to build and maintain credit, you're not controlled by what money flows in and out of your household from someone else.

Personal debt and business debt are not the same thing and you are wise to keep the two separate.

So, if being debt free is not the secret to success, what is? Guarantee you cannot answer that question for me...

From: sleepyhunter
11-Oct-18
PD,

LOL, send me another obscene pm. It's been a pleasure contributing to your tantrum today.

11-Oct-18
Happiness!

From: JL
11-Oct-18
There is good debt (something that provides a good ROI) and bad debt (something that takes more than it gives). Most successful folks likely know that.

Personal debt freedom can be managed to one's benefit if one thinks in longer terms and is smart about using the tools available to them. Debt freedom probably wouldn't apply to businesses due to their cyclical nature or adaptive business strategies.

From: HDE
11-Oct-18
^^^ not according to some, that is merely a state of mind.

Edit: happiness is a state of mind.

From: Rocky
12-Oct-18
HDE,

Speak to our accountants. They would be best to answer your questions and set you straight. We were established by my grandfather in 1954, construction projects operating nationwide. I am merely advised when and how debt is necessary and advantageous. I make the final decisions but have rarely if ever not followed the advice of our business accountants. There may be a better way. I am fine. Don't worry about me and the captains of our ship. That you would need an explanation of business and debt is a red flag I would heed.

The Rock

From: Grey Ghost
12-Oct-18
I was going to address the “debt” post too, but I see Rocco and others have it covered.

Frank, I agree, the real Rocco is much more interesting than Pluto.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
12-Oct-18
BTW, DOW futures are pointing to a 300 point gain at the bell, today. Rational investors seem to be capitalizing on the panic sellers.

"....When people are fearful, be greedy".

Matt

From: HDE
12-Oct-18
Rock, I am quite certain I have it covered for myself. Too many times people think their situation is the same for everyone else. Again, freedom of debt means you control your debt, not the other way around. "Those who understand interest earn it, those who don't, pay it."

And, as long as we're talking about Grandfathers, mine was a self made millionaire and never worked for one jackwagon employer his entire life. He started and sold many successful business and didn't carry many, if any, personal debt notes. When he wanted something, he whipped out the Benjamin's.

So don't sit there and try to explain to me the disadvantages of not becoming personally debt free. Being able to tell any employer to pound sand at a younger age because they cannot use my debt against me is a pretty successful story up to this point.

Cheers...

From: Grey Ghost
12-Oct-18
HDE,

Say you want to buy a new $40K pickup. You can either finance it thru the dealership for 4% interest, or you can pull $40K out of a investment that consistently earns 10% each year, and pay cash. Which would you do?

Matt

From: K Cummings
12-Oct-18
"Chad, is your friend's company in an IRA? LOL! "

Frank:

In your attempt at being cute, you are only showing your ignorance, or your intellectual dishonesty, I'm just not sure which.

In my opinion, your inability to discern what I've posted, and why, should be a matter of concern to most given your profession.

KPC

From: sleepyhunter
12-Oct-18
""Rational investors seem to be capitalizing on the panic sellers.""

Yes how sweet it is.

From: Will
12-Oct-18
"Rational investors seem to be capitalizing on the panic sellers" ^^^ All I can hear when reading that, is my father in law - rest in peace... Every time the market would plunge, he'd get all excited and buy. He had his methods, and they worked excellently for him... But man, that strategy seemed one of the most successful.

GG - Ill play. I'm no "money master" for dang sure. But if I read your post correctly, I'd err to financing most of the truck. Why pull out 40K from an investment of some sort that is rolling 10% in. I may generate some debt, but the 4% interest would mean I functionally still make 6% on that investment (IE, making 10% on the invested 40K, losing 4% on the spent 40K so in effect, I'm 6% in the positive).

In that scenario, I've taken on the debt, but I'm making more $ long term than if I'd spent what I had invested.

Is that what you were drilling at? That's the approach I've taken to things, so I'm very curious? Being self employed leads one to want to save what they earn...

From: Grey Ghost
12-Oct-18
Will,

Yes that's the simple point I'm making. Debt, even personal debt, makes a lot of sense in certain situations.

I also understand what HDE is getting at. You can't live on credit cards and expect to get anywhere.

Matt

From: JL
12-Oct-18
Using a calculator....a 4%/$40K loan for 5 years on a new car will cost you $4200....not counting the loan fees.

10% ROI - $40,000 for 5 yrs would make you about $24,420.

All that calculated....if you use a market based investment and the market goes south.....all bets are off. You could loose some of your initial investment, any gains and still owe on a $40K car loan.

From: Pig Doc
12-Oct-18
"In your attempt at being cute, you are only showing your ignorance, or your intellectual dishonesty, I'm just not sure which."

No, Frank is spot on. You're the one showing intellectual dishonesty. You post "Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether those, or any other investment, is held inside a qualified account. None. Zero. Nada.". When we all know that there are many investments, including the one Frank was referring to, that can't be purchased in a qualified account. We also know there are limits to how much a person can contribute to a qualified account. I know a lot of very successful businessmen and investors. None of them made their fortunes in qualified accounts, and none of them needed the help of a pencil pushing parasite to make their fortunes.

From: K Cummings
12-Oct-18
That's true JL but remember the 10% is an average for that investment over time.

So, even if it "goes south" in the short term (< 5 years) eventually it should rebound and meet its average over time. An average is just that, average. Some years are going to be down 10 and some years are going to up 20.

Over time...if you give it that (which is where most investors fail), you are better off using someone else's money if it is cheap. The problem is that most people have no choice but to borrow.

I tell my clients that debt as a strategy can be good, debt as a necessity...not so much.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a parasite that bilks old people.

:)

KPC

From: Pig Doc
12-Oct-18
Finally you post something that I agree with. We're making progress.

From: K Cummings
12-Oct-18
"No, Frank is spot on. You're the one showing intellectual dishonesty. You post "Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether those, or any other investment, is held inside a qualified account. None. Zero. Nada.". When we all know that there are many investments, including the one Frank was referring to, that can't be purchased in a qualified account."

Nor should they be utilized by the average retail investor, which is who and what this thread is about, not to mention 98% of the people posting on it...including Frank, by his own admission.

My point was, and still is, if you want to invest in things other than "stock based investments" such as commodities, you can do that in a qualified account. If you want to invest in private equity or virtually any other alternative asset class, you can do that in a qualified account. Now, you might not be able to invest in the specific business that YOU invested in, or the specific commodity that YOU invested in, or in the amounts that YOU invested, but that's not the point, That was never the point. Nor was it my point that qualified accounts should be the only thing a person invests in.

I addressed what you were implying in your specific statements.

" "Must suck to have your financial future tied up in a shell game."

"At this stage of my life I would not be comfortable with the majority of my net worth in a 401K or IRA."

As they pertain to the subject at hand, and the participants in the discussion, they are both quite ignorant.

The fact that you can't seem have a discussion with anyone without engaging in vulgarities, name calling and personal attacks should tell everyone what they need to know.

The difference between someone like you and someone like me is that I am held accountable for the advice I give. That is precisely why I NEVER give any here. You are not. You can come on here and boast about how smart you are, and all the intelligent investments that you've made, without ever considering your audience and the impact it might have on them, positive or negative.

I've personally made some great investments also, but that in no way means they are suitable for anyone other than me, in my specific situation. To even imply that they are is both reckless and unethical, not to mention possibly illegal.

I am bound by law, not to mention ethical and fiduciary constraints. You are not, and it is obvious.

I am very comfortable with what I've posted both in terms of accuracy and honesty, intellectual and otherwise, and stand by every word.

Therefore this will by my last response to you on the subject.

KPC

From: Rocky
12-Oct-18
Matt,

"I also understand what HDE is getting at. You can't live on credit cards and expect to get anywhere."

A myth and misconception about credit cards especially high figure limit business related cards. Credit cards are used in savvy business short term business transactions, if accepeted, that would fall within the 30 days+ the grace period window. Appreciable interest on your balance is avoided if paid in full. Monthly revenue streams should dictate the use of the credit cards limit, obviously to avoid at all costs the interest incurred, by paying in full. Credit cards companies realize that a high percentage of consumers lack the temperance, willpower and discipline required, even though they may be capable, to pay their balance in full, when the option is offered to pay the minimum. Businesses on the other hand , for the most part, disciplined, or should be, know the advantages of "free" money, all things being compared and equal, for this short window and will max out their credit card if need be for revenue relief. Our American Express cards cover materials and costs and at times the monthly statement is eye popping. Invoice grace period + the credit card window grace period (don't push up too hard against this date) used in conjunction is a powerful financial tool. Discipline. When the bill comes due transfer the funds or write the check and eat hot dogs if you must that night but pay in full. The filet will be waiting for you with the garnishes.

The Rock

From: Pig Doc
12-Oct-18
Kenny finally figures out what I have been posting all along. Took long enough.

I'm not giving anyone advice. As I posted previously, this is what has worked for me. You are all free to do what you want. To suggest what I have posted is illegal is asinine, which is exactly what I have come to expect from KPC.

From: Grey Ghost
12-Oct-18
Rocco,

I hear you. I burn up my Visa and Corp. Am Ex cards every month too, for convenience sake. But they get paid in full every month, religiously. Carrying high balances and making minimum payments, on the other hand, doesn't get it done.

Matt

12-Oct-18
Kevin,

You are an ass. It's really that simple. Chad answered your once again anal attempt at being significant. Please, leave my name out of everything, quit pretending I am a post.

From: TD
12-Oct-18
If you're paying "cash" for that truck you'll likely be able get it for a good deal less than $40,000..... =D

Sometimes other things factor in than just raw base numbers. heheheheh.....

From: K Cummings
12-Oct-18
Frank:

Apparently, you are so enamored by Pig Doc that you are taking on his personality.

It is amazing how people who constantly remind us about their superior educations and their advanced degrees have such a hard time comprehending what others post. Take Pig Doc’s last post for an example. He accuses me of suggesting that what he posted could be illegal. Not only did I not do that, I didn’t even hint at it. If he could read, and comprehend, he could clearly see that I was referring to if I posted such things about my own personal investments. Not only did I not imply what he said I did, I specifically excluded him from that statement.

”I've personally made some great investments also, but that in no way means they are suitable for anyone other than me, in my specific situation. To even imply that they are is both reckless and unethical, not to mention possibly illegal.

I am bound by law, not to mention ethical and fiduciary constraints. You are not, and it is obvious.“

So, you are welcome to play along with his ignorant accusations and name calling, but that says a lot more about you than me.

KPC

From: K Cummings
12-Oct-18
TD:

Actually, sometimes it’s just the opposite. Dealerships make a lot of their profits from financing and add-ons. Cash sales are often the least amount of profit for the dealer.

I just purchased a new pick-up truck and paid cash.

I wanted to put it on my credit card for the points that it would provide, but they would not allow me to. Well, they would but I would have to pay 3% more. Paying 3% more to get 2% in points did make a lot is sense so I just wrote a check.

KPC

From: Rocky
12-Oct-18
Matt,

Carrying forward those balances will get it done...and well done to boot. ;-)

The Rock

From: TD
12-Oct-18
Lots of times there are those "0% interest!" or low interest (on approved credit...) types of deals. In which case they bump up the price of the vehicle and have a good bit of room to "negotiate".....

Seems in this world a good bit of deals or "sales" work that way, folks think they're getting a great deal. Kinda like folks bragging about their tax "refunds" .... or rather how much they overpaid.....

Hijack over...... carry on..... =D

From: Grey Ghost
12-Oct-18
"Carrying forward those balances will get it done...and well done to boot. ;-)"

CAN get it done, if you're leveraging those balances against higher returns than the interest on the cards. Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury often, ;-)

Matt

From: Pig Doc
12-Oct-18
From KPC who fleeces investors for a living: "I've personally made some great investments also, but that in no way means they are suitable for anyone other than me, in my specific situation. To even imply that they are is both reckless and unethical, not to mention possibly illegal."

LMAO! You could not make my points any better! You are admitting there are great investments available outside of "qualified accounts", which you sell, but they are not for the average investor, only for smart guys like you. Really? You just confirmed my points about pencil pushing parasites.

From: K Cummings
12-Oct-18
You’re right TD.

They’re going to make their profit one way or another. Nothing wrong with that.

I know for me, I haven’t paid more than invoice for a new vehicle for as long as I can remember.

Even then, there is profit to the dealer.

KPC

From: K Cummings
12-Oct-18

From: Pig Doc
12-Oct-18
"It is amazing how people who constantly remind us about their superior educations and their advanced degrees have such a hard time comprehending what others post."

Show me where I "constantly remind us about their superior educations and advanced degrees". Never happened. What's funny is that this whole thread is about your area of expertise, not mine, and you look like a clueless fool. This is my favorite:

”I've personally made some great investments also, but that in no way means they are suitable for anyone other than me, in my specific situation."

I'm sure all of your clients would love to see this. Maybe you could put it in your Christmas letter to the clients you fleece.

From: Grey Ghost
13-Oct-18
Once again, Piggy proves money doesn't buy character.

Matt

From: K Cummings
13-Oct-18
“Once again, Piggy proves money doesn't buy character.

You don’t know the half of it Matt.

If I was one to share private communications, I suspect people might have an entirely different opinion about certain things.

Ironically, it’s that whole “character” thing that prevents me from doing so without permission. What I will say is that I have been on the Bowsite CF for close to two decades and in all that time I have never had anyone stoop to the level of actually degrading my wife and family. Say whatever you want about me, my career, my opinions, etc., but in my opinion degrading another person's wife and family is about as low as you can get.

As I’ve said before, I’m confident in both the honesty and accuracy of what I post, as well as being able to support what I post with facts. The disgusting personal attacks, on both me and my family, reveal more about the attacker than anyone else.

KPC

From: Rocky
13-Oct-18
Matt,

Credit Cards: One of the most brilliant financial aids and traps devised by man, about as close to genius as you can get heavily balanced for the institution. The 40's, 50's on the street they would wear see through socks, a fedora, and were called "shylocks". The 70's forward they were called " loansharks" wearing leisure suits and a baseball bat working out of the back of a two-tone Cadillac. Now they have drive thru windows, ATM'S all backed by the FDIC. That is what I call a "transformation".

The Rock

From: Grey Ghost
13-Oct-18
Rocco,

Good point. When I first met my wife she had no concept of interest and money management. She had every credit card known to man and carried high balances on most of them. If her paycheck covered the minimum payments, she thought she was doing fine. When I showed her what she was actually paying for all that "stuff", she said, "that's a rip-off!". She proceeded to tear up all her cards right in front of me. I was in love.

We later married and bought our first house shortly afterwards. At the closing table for the mortgage loan, I watched her go straight to the bottom line to see what we would ultimately pay for the house, including interest. She literally wanted to walk away from the deal. LOL.

Flash forward 28 years. I recently overheard my wife schooling our 22 year-old God-daughter on the dangers of credit card debt. I smiled and thought, "that's my girl".

;-)

Matt

From: K Cummings
13-Oct-18
Shes a keeper Matt!

My wife is the same.

As to credit cards, I use my Cabelas card for every single thing I possibly can including monthy utility bills, insurance coverages, etc.. It is automatically paid every month so I have never paid any fees or finance charges.

I accumulate enough Cabelas Club points to keep me in free hunting and outdoor gear.

The way I look at it, if they want to give me free stuff for the privilege of using their money for free, I'm good with that.

KPC

From: Grey Ghost
13-Oct-18
Kevin,

You are Cabela's worst nightmare!! LOL. I wish I would have had your foresight. I've always politely declined their offers for a card, but I may have to rethink that.

;-)

Matt

From: MK111
13-Oct-18
The wife and I decided we wanted to retire early with no debt. So we paid every extra dollar we had to pay the RE farm and the new house we built off early. She retired at 58 and we were set for it. I was already retired due to health reasons.

No debt with no interest due and we can do what we want to do. So for the last 16 yrs we have no real worries. No debt and no interest is the secret.

A friend said it was not wise to pay off RE mortage early as I get no interest deduction on IRS taxes. His finance advisor said to keep your RE financed at 90% of value to get maximum IRS tax deduction. My take was since I in about 25% IRS tax bracket I only got about 25 cents on every dollar of interest paid and 75 cent was thrown away. He looked at me with a blank stare and he said would have to talk to his finance advisor to see if my idea was correct. Either way I'm RE payment free and no further worries.

We use a credit card for all purchases plus and insurance monthly payments on RE, cars, health, and plus RE taxes. But the CC is paid off monthly and no interest charges paid. Plus with we get about $1.00 off per gallon on gas from the CC rebates.

From: K Cummings
13-Oct-18
Actually, I just switched cards Matt, after about 15 or 20 years.

Sadly, since the purchase by Bass Pro, I've noticed a slip in their customer service. I've been a HUGE Cabelas fan for a long time but the last time I spoke with them, the customer service rep spoke very broken English. It's been my experience that when CS is outsourced to India, that is not a good sign.

My new card gives me double the points and it's just cash back instead of Cabelas points so I can purchase my gear anywhere.

KPC

From: Rocky
13-Oct-18
Matt,

As KPC said a keeper no doubt. She seems to have had your back while you were out breaking it. :-) The little things can add up real quick. That is a good woman.

The Rock

From: Grey Ghost
13-Oct-18
Actually, Rocco, my wife has contributed to our financial success as much as I have, if not more.

As a self-employed architect and spec home builder, my money came in large chunks each time I sold a home. We used that money for larger material purchases and investments. My wife's steady and respectable paychecks paid the day-to-day bills.

I lost interest in my profession 15 years ago, while my wife has continued to be inspired and excel at hers. We now own a successful business in her line of work. ( I won't mention what line for fear of Piggy belittling us.). Now, I watch over the eggs, while my wife makes them.

That's my girl.

Matt

From: JL
13-Oct-18
GG - Sounds like a great gal!! I retired at 51 and the wife is still plugging away with a big city job working from the house. She is the brains and daily sugar mama of the household. I do the chores and cooking around the house. She lets me hunt and fish at will. Great gig!

From: K Cummings
15-Oct-18
Almost without exception, the most successful men I know (in all aspects of life) could not or would not have achieved or maintained that success without the support of a good woman.

KPC

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