Summit Treestands
Mahomes
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Contributors to this thread:
HA/KS 04-Nov-18
HA/KS 04-Nov-18
elkmtngear 04-Nov-18
RK 04-Nov-18
Woods Walker 04-Nov-18
HA/KS 04-Nov-18
Zbone 05-Nov-18
Rocky 05-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 05-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 05-Nov-18
Bake 05-Nov-18
HA/KS 05-Nov-18
Zbone 05-Nov-18
Rocky 05-Nov-18
TD 05-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 05-Nov-18
Zbone 05-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 05-Nov-18
Rocky 05-Nov-18
SLS 05-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 05-Nov-18
woodguy65 05-Nov-18
HA/KS 06-Nov-18
TD 06-Nov-18
Rocky 06-Nov-18
Will 06-Nov-18
woodguy65 06-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 06-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 06-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 06-Nov-18
Rocky 06-Nov-18
Zbone 06-Nov-18
HA/KS 19-Nov-18
Zbone 20-Nov-18
Thumper 20-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 20-Nov-18
Zbone 20-Nov-18
HA/KS 20-Nov-18
Zbone 20-Nov-18
Brotsky 20-Nov-18
Will 20-Nov-18
Bake 20-Nov-18
Bake 20-Nov-18
TD 20-Nov-18
Rocky 20-Nov-18
Charlie Rehor 20-Nov-18
KSflatlander 20-Nov-18
Zbone 20-Nov-18
Rocky 20-Nov-18
Zbone 20-Nov-18
Rocky 21-Nov-18
HA/KS 21-Nov-18
Zbone 21-Nov-18
Rocky 21-Nov-18
Ace 21-Nov-18
Pig Doc 21-Nov-18
Rocky 21-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 22-Nov-18
Arrownocker82 22-Nov-18
Rocky 22-Nov-18
Rocky 22-Nov-18
HA/KS 22-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 22-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 22-Nov-18
Zbone 22-Nov-18
Zbone 22-Nov-18
Rocky 22-Nov-18
woodguy65 23-Nov-18
woodguy65 23-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 23-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 23-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 23-Nov-18
woodguy65 23-Nov-18
HA/KS 23-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 23-Nov-18
Will 23-Nov-18
Rocky 23-Nov-18
Zbone 23-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 23-Nov-18
Will 23-Nov-18
Rocky 23-Nov-18
Chiefs-fan 24-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 25-Nov-18
Rocky 25-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 25-Nov-18
Rocky 25-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 25-Nov-18
HA/KS 25-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 25-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 25-Nov-18
Grey Ghost 25-Nov-18
Zbone 25-Nov-18
Dirk Diggler 02-Dec-18
Dirk Diggler 02-Dec-18
Rocky 02-Dec-18
Zbone 03-Dec-18
Will 10-Dec-18
Bake 10-Dec-18
Zbone 10-Dec-18
Rocky 10-Dec-18
HA/KS 13-Dec-18
Will 13-Dec-18
TD 14-Dec-18
Grey Ghost 14-Dec-18
Zbone 14-Dec-18
Will 14-Dec-18
Brotsky 14-Dec-18
Charlie Rehor 14-Dec-18
South Farm 14-Dec-18
Grey Ghost 14-Dec-18
TD 14-Dec-18
HA/KS 14-Dec-18
Zbone 15-Dec-18
Rocky 15-Dec-18
Zim1 18-Dec-18
Zbone 21-Dec-18
Rocky 22-Dec-18
Pig Doc 22-Dec-18
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BIG BEAR 23-Dec-18
BIG BEAR 23-Dec-18
BIGHORN 24-Dec-18
Rocky 24-Dec-18
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Will 24-Dec-18
Rocky 24-Dec-18
HA/KS 12-Jan-19
BIG BEAR 12-Jan-19
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bigswivle 13-Jan-19
HA/KS 15-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 15-Jan-19
Zbone 16-Jan-19
Rocky 16-Jan-19
From: HA/KS
04-Nov-18

HA/KS's Link
If you like football at all and haven't watched this kid .....

May have to go to Youtube to watch the video.

From: HA/KS
04-Nov-18

HA/KS's Link
Because of copy write you have to go to Youtube if you want to watch.

His receivers make him look pretty good.

From: elkmtngear
04-Nov-18
Wow, that kid is something else...seriously deadly when on the run and/or off-balance!

From: RK
04-Nov-18
He is going to help built a heck of a machine in KC

i went to a lot of games at Texas Tech and saw him play. My son goes there. I think he was always better than Mayfield but just did not have the total team around him like Mayfield did

He is an incredible QB

From: Woods Walker
04-Nov-18
When I read the title I thought it was about some kid in the 'hood talking about his friends! ;-)

From: HA/KS
04-Nov-18
His dad was an MLB pitcher for quite a few years.

From: Zbone
05-Nov-18
No doubt the kid is special...

From: Rocky
05-Nov-18
How can anyone say QB without naming Jared Goff? We now have Brees, Brady, Mahomes, Goff, and Aaron Rodgers. Through in a suspect Carson Wence and you have some interesting offensive games on the docket.

Something else. The Vikings Kirk Cousin is the most under rated QB out there. This guy can go.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Nov-18
Once again, Brady showed why he's still the best QB in the league last night. He does more with less talent around him than any other.

Mahomes may get there some day, but without the likes of Hill, Kelsey, and Hunt, I don't think he could put a team on his back and lead them to championships like Brady has. The Chiefs defense is still suspect too, IMO, and that will cause their ultimate demise in the playoffs.

Matt

05-Nov-18
Matt,

He is that good. Yes, he has talent around him but he is making them look even better. He makes things happen. He is physically talented but also reads defenses and adjusts like a seasoned veteran.

Agree on the defense.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Nov-18
Frank,

Mahomes makes many plays on athletic talent alone, right now. If he's still doing that at 40 years of age, I'll concede the GOAT title to him. When he inevitably get's injured, or age wears on those athletic abilities, that's when we'll see what he's truly made of.

Matt

From: Bake
05-Nov-18
He’s fun to watch. That is for sure. Gives a reason to watch the Chiefs.

From: HA/KS
05-Nov-18
.

He is fun to watch.

He's basically a rookie. GOAT should not even be in the conversation.

He has not played defense for a single snap this year.

He doesn't play for any other NFL team.

He's fun to watch.

From: Zbone
05-Nov-18
"GOAT should not even be in the conversation"

I agree,,, and he's about ready to fall of a cliff at anytime, threw 6 incompletions in a row last night (thought that might be the jumping off the edge...8^))) ya can't beat Father Time...

05-Nov-18
Matt,

He is breaking all kinds of records. He is better than Brady was in his second year, even better than Peyton;)

From: Rocky
05-Nov-18
RG 111 was also great and the next coming. The only time to tag great is when you look back at the body of work over time and QUALITY wins: winning drives/playoff wins when it is one or your done. Pressure,and how you handle it under pressure.

The Rock

From: TD
05-Nov-18
Sure looking good so far. Has that feel for the ball...... left handed passes.... can throw ACCURATELY from nearly any position, doesn't have to square up, kind of like Rogers. Nifty with his feet but unlike many doesn't HAVE to run it. Good feel in the pocket.

I some ways the kid has a Stephen Curry feel to him. Just crazy natural gifts.

From: Grey Ghost
05-Nov-18
Rocco,

You and I seem to agree more often each day.

I'm just trying to tone down some of the Mahomes fan-boy rhetoric. Yes, he's had a great 9 game start to his career. Yes, he's set numerous records with the help of guys who routinely take his 5 yard tosses to the house. Yes, he shows great promise. But, would he be putting up those numbers in Cleveland, Oakland, Buffalo, etc.....?

Besides RG Triple Tooth Picks, Michael Vick and Mark Sanchez come to mind as other examples of QBs who didn't live up to their first few year's of billings.

I had the pleasure to watch Elway for his entire career. He took a miserable Bronco team to 9-7 his rookie year. They were 13-3 his second year, again with below average talent around him. Early in his career, he made plays on pure physical talent, much like Mahomes. As he aged, and the NFL took it's toll on his body, what he lost in physical talent, he made up for with football acumen.

The difference between Elway and Mahomes is Elway was a physically imposing man. 6'4" tall, north of 230 pounds, with a rocket arm and good legs. Mahomes has the arm and legs part, but how long will his below average physical size hold up? Brees has certainly bucked the QB stereotypes. Perhaps Mahomes will too. Only time will tell.

Matt

From: Zbone
05-Nov-18
Grey Ghost - Good points, Mahomes has lotz of weapons others do/did not,,, one of if not the best tight end in the league, one of the best running backs in the league, and a human joy stick premier wide receiver, possibly the fastest man in the league... Not to mention his offense line is solid...

From: Grey Ghost
05-Nov-18
Z,

Not to mention, the QBs many prematurely compared Mahomes to played in a era when defensive players could hit QBs so hard their dead grandmothers felt it. Mahomes plays in an era in which defensive players get penalized for farting on a QB.

Combine that with rule changes that benefit offensive receivers, and is it any real surprise Mahomes is breaking records? That's a given in my book.

Matt

From: Rocky
05-Nov-18
Matt, I personally like the way Mahomes handles himself on the field and his attitude APPEARS to be under control. You're correct in his supporting staff but his accuracy and release is uncanny. I see the same exact attributes in ball flight from Tua the QB for Alabama. We will see when crunch time comes how Mahomes handles it.

The Rock

From: SLS
05-Nov-18
Matt, Mahomes is listed at 6'3" 230 lbs. Not really a small QB

From: Grey Ghost
05-Nov-18
I'm not buying 6'3" 230. Are those numbers verifiable? He sure looks and plays smaller.

He'll probably win the SB this year, and I will eat crow. Until then, I'll refrain from accolades until he's actually accomplished something.

Matt

05-Nov-18
Heck, we are all just guessing.

By accounts in the news, he is a leader. I think players are giving more because of that.

Their only loss, to the Pats, they were way behind at the half. Supposedly Andy Reid went to talk to him and he responded not to worry, he had it.

Brady didn't win that game, the Chief's defense lost it. Totally different outcome at Arrowhead.

Many of the same players Alex Smith had. He didn't get this kind of yardage. Some of those yards after the catch are being earned by the receivers, some of them are from the QB being able to throw where the defense doesn't expect.

Most teams would take him right now, including over Brady I bet.

From: woodguy65
05-Nov-18
I think you are putting the cart waaaaaaaaaay ahead of the horse. Your not even half way through the season. Get back to us in 5 years - then in 10 years and lets see what he is doing. The NFL chews these guys up and spits them out. Look at Andrew Luck, Jameis Winston, Kappernick all those guys had 1 great season and were the next..., hell Kapp took a team to the SB and I remember analyst on ESPN saying his style of running/passing was going to change the NFL forever....yawn. Yeah until the next year when Def coordinators watch a years worth of film, and utilize all the game film of teams that played them the prior year, then it ends as quick as it begins...

Brady, Manning, Brees are all extremely cerebral - coaches on the field. They break down schemes in a nano second. Did you see last night where Brady faked the entire secondary out with a look and direction of his head - then hit Gordon for a TD... sure looks easy from where I sit.

Do you seriously think this kid could carry a team like Brady or Rogers with the lack of talent of their peers? If Rogers gets hurt the packers will only win 1-2 more games - period.

He is a gifted athlete with loads of talent, I love watching him. He makes it look easy and almost looks unstoppable. I wish him the best and hope he has a long bright future.

From: HA/KS
06-Nov-18
"I think you are putting the cart waaaaaaaaaay ahead of the horse."

Who?

I said he is fun to watch.

From: TD
06-Nov-18
Who is calling him a hall of famer right now? Nobody I have heard. But who is playing lights out football as QB right now? He's got to be at or near the top. Brady is great.... but he has his O line to thank. With any pressure he's pretty pedestrian these days. The game line is, he takes a big hit or two and he goes to "happy feet". Seen it in many games.

What is undeniable is Mahomes is putting up incredible numbers, making the highlight reels with every game and with any hint of defense would be undefeated. He CAN run.... but he's got 29 passing TDs.... 29. (to 7 INT) And 2 rushing. Halfway into the season and has near 3000 yards passing. 137 yard total running. A bit over 15 yards per game. That's not a "running" QB. 116 passer rating. Pretty cool.

WRT YAC...... yes some great receivers. But that stat requires he hits them where they can make a move or continue to run after the catch. That's big. Have to sit down or adjust for the ball not caught in stride is yuge in YAC.......

Ready for the HOF? Nope, not yet by a long ways. But very very few HOF QBs were duds early in their careers, (could say Curt Warner was an exception) most gave a good window to the future as to what was coming. So far..... so good....

From: Rocky
06-Nov-18
TD, Tom Brady has earned his wings over a 20 year period unmatched by any QB in this league. He can have happy feet a happy meal or anything he wants because he is above criticism at 41 years old. He has more SB's than Mahomes or ANY rookie QB has come from behind wins. It is not possible that a single team could have the greatest O line in football year in and year out over that span. Brady did all this WITHOUT a true threat no name running backs and with midget no name receivers, excuse me, one, Gronkowski a TE. Guess what? I, like every other person can't stand this guy because of the winning machine that he is, but, there is not enough football bronze on these fields to build his statue.

The Rock

The Rock

06-Nov-18
Yes, and don't forget the cheating part. How many other HOF QBs have had 4 game suspensions? And what did they do that wasn't caught?

Guy is a cheater, plain and simple. Only cheater I know the CF puts on a pedestal. (Besides Trump. That's for Paul because you know it's coming,)

;)

From: Will
06-Nov-18
He's sure starting his career well. But considering how Mariota looked on year one (very good) or Dak Prescott (Awesome), I dont yet know how his career will go long term. He sure looks good in games, sorta a bigger bodied Aaron Rodgers.

Hopefully he has a great career. I mean the "last" "big" generation of QB's are down to what, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees? I guess Roethlesburger as well. All those guy's are in the twilight of their careers. It is awesome to see some young guys come up and play as Mahomes has.

That Cheifs Pat's game was my favorite this year - yes, "my" team won... But it was the way the Chiefs played and Mahomes in particular that was awesome.

From: woodguy65
06-Nov-18
Habitat you are grasping. I hate the Patriots as well, I'm a life long Steelers fan, unfortunately our road goes through Foxboro.

That said, I have the utmost respect for Brady and Belichick as a football fan. They are both the GOAT and it's not even close.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Nov-18
Anyone remember Gale Sayers?

Matt

06-Nov-18
Matt, yes.

Woodguy, I was only partially jesting.

All of the records the kid is breaking are names that everyone recognizes. Hard for me to believe that when someone else breaks his, that few will remember him or think it was a fluke.

Realize, all of the changes Matt pointed to every other QB faces. There is a reason he is better.

Twenty years ago we did not have 275lb lineman running a tad over 4 seconds either, or nearly as tall. The entire game has evolved. Yes, he is that good.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Nov-18
Frank,

Imagine if Unitas, Elway, Marino, Montana, Manning, Rogers, Brees, Brady, etc...all played under the same rules Mahomes does for their entire careers. Do you still think Mahomes would be setting records?

Matt

06-Nov-18
Yep. Think if those guys played against the size, speed and strength of today.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Nov-18
"Yep. Think if those guys played against the size, speed and strength of today."

They did, and in some cases they played against athletes that were even bigger, stronger and faster than today. Remember steroids? Some of those guys looked like fictional cartoon characters.

Look, I understand your excitement. I would be excited too if Mahomes was in orange and blue. But don't start counting chickens just yet, unless you want to be disappointed. We've seen one-hit wonders before in the NFL, many times.

Matt

06-Nov-18
Matt,

Look at the Combines then and now.

I am not counting chickens. I think he will be gone in two years.

From: Rocky
06-Nov-18
Matt, Gale Sayers? Remember? How could I ever forget. That was my number 40 because of him and I remember the station breaking in telling of Sayers 6 TD'S , 4 by run 1 by pass and 1 by punt return for 80 yds. all in a sloppy drenched mud slop of a field. Incredible talent cut short.

The Rock

From: Zbone
06-Nov-18
Yeah, how could anyone who ever watch Gale Sayers ever forget him...

BTW, I'm not a Brady fan either, but if I had to draft a QB just out of college in their day, my first choice would have been Elway, with Rogers a close second behind... I think Rodgers is the most accurate passer I've ever seen though... The long term jury is still out on Mahomes, but I luv what I see so far... He sure is fun to watch...

From: HA/KS
19-Nov-18
Not perfect for sure, but not a terrible performance so far on the big stage tonight.

From: Zbone
20-Nov-18
Although I didn't care for his final pass, the kid is sensational...

From: Thumper
20-Nov-18
Yep, KC missed two extra points and a 34 yard field goal Monday night in their 51 to 54 loss to the the Rams. The QB turn overs and the refs kept the Rams in the game. Both teams went into the game with 8-1 records.

From: Grey Ghost
20-Nov-18
Mahomes threw 3 picks and fumbled twice. 3 of those turnovers resulted in Ram touchdowns. He’s talented, but he’s still human.

Neither of those teams have the defense to win a SB, IMO.

Matt

20-Nov-18
Both fumbles were poor offensive line blocking, one interception was his arm was hit while throwing, the last one was a hail mary.

Still human, but super human.

From: Zbone
20-Nov-18
I agree turnovers was his downfall, he needs to secure the ball better, he's young, he'll learn... Couple of those late strip sacks loosing the ball could have been avoided had he secured the ball better as pressure enclosed him, and the 2 late interceptions trying to be the hero and force the ball under two minutes cost them the game... They had the ball midfield with all three timeouts only down by 3 and got two possessions...

As said, the kid is sensational and I luv the kid, but he's has a lot to learn...

20-Nov-18
If this game was played in Arrowhead, different outcome. What a come back from a shaky start. The kid is 23, and cool as any seasoned QB under pressure.

From: HA/KS
20-Nov-18
Mahomes after the game "I gave them 21 points."

That says a lot about character. He seems intelligent and wise beyond his years.

If his body lasts, he will be one of the greats. It's a tough game and many promising careers end early due to injuries.

From: Zbone
20-Nov-18
I like what Shannon Sharpe calls him - "My-homes boy"...8^)

From: Brotsky
20-Nov-18
The Saints would have put up 50 points in this game as well, difference is they would only have given up 24.

From: Will
20-Nov-18
That game was fun last night though - just what the NFL has been trying to create, all offense, no defense - arena ball outside... Mahomes has a good future ahead. I'm being cautiously optimistic... I mean if you asked me about Goff during his first season I'd have said he would be out of the league by now... or a back up. You just dont know how guys develop.

If the super bowl was tomorrow, I'm with Brotsky - the saints would beat anyone in the NFL, solidly. Who know's how things look in the play offs.

It does make me wonder about the play offs. Watching last night, I felt like the NFC is likely Saint's / Rams with the Saint's moving on... But the AFC. Feels like a crap shoot. By record I'd say KC, but I watched a very flawed pat's team slow them a little and go up and down the field on them... so I'm not convinced. I dont trust Pitt to not do something stupid and lose a game. Tennessee? Houston? Meh. NE? Meh. I just dont see an AFC team that feels like a great team this year... KC may be the closest, but I honestly think the Saints would score 60+ on them on a neutral field.

From: Bake
20-Nov-18
Mahomes is fun to watch, and that game was fun.

Those strip sacks. . . . man that's tough. I can't fault him for that. 2 blind side where he has the ball in his hand to throw. I just can't fault him for that

2 of the 3 interceptions I don't really mind. The two at the end. He was trying to make something happen.

You all gotta realize. . . . The Chiefs fans have been suffering through years of crap. Our last quarterback was Alex Smith, a fundamental technician who never took a risk. We never won a big game, because he'd never take a risk. He'd never throw the ball up. He'd take the sack.

I'm a dreamer, I'd much rather him throw something up and let the receiver's have a chance than to just take a sack.

Chiefs fans are having fun. For the first time in a LONG time

From: Bake
20-Nov-18

Bake's Link
for the love of Pete!! Alex Smith went 594 days as a Chief without throwing a TD pass to a receiver!

From: TD
20-Nov-18
Most teams would take an Alex Smith over 3/4 of the QBs out there. He's not great, but he is good. His career might be over now though. That was a really badly broken leg Sunday. The kind that ended Theismann's career.

From: Rocky
20-Nov-18
Very enjoyable game to watch once in a while but......I am totally against the NFL taking on the ease of the NBA in scoring. A score should be difficult to accomplish in any sport but the way the NFL is throwing flags all over the place and these rule changes against the defense and QB'S wearing skirts, scoring becomes almost expected. Btw..these hometown calls must stop or least be somewhat manageable.

Lastly. These "young" great QB''s when they play a game of meaning (playoffs/must win games) will define how they perform under pressure because that is when and only when it counts and when the moniker "great" begins to be bandied around. Until you win SOMETHING you have won NOTHING.

The Rock

20-Nov-18
Always fun to guess who the Patriots will play in the Super Bowl

From: KSflatlander
20-Nov-18
I can't believe it but I have to agree with Rocky on this one...there I said it.

From: Zbone
20-Nov-18
Bake - "You all gotta realize. . . . The Chiefs fans have been suffering through years of crap."

Dude, you ain't been a Browns fan...8^)

From: Rocky
20-Nov-18
Zbone,

Laugh all you want but throw out the Chargers and the 2nd Steelers game and this team is playing some good competitive football. People around the league know this team has improved and I think in 2-3 years they are going to make a mark. Playing them is no longer a breather for other teams.

The Rock

The Rock

From: Zbone
20-Nov-18
Yeah, thanks Rock, agree the Cheifs, Chargers, and second Steelers game (playoff contenders) are the only ones that thoroughly beat them... Yeah they're up and comers, the future is FINALLY looking brighter... Hell, with those top picks in the draft for so many years, something was bound to happen...8^) But, I do credit John Dorsey, heck he's the one to move up in the draft to #10 to draft My-Homes Boy for the Chiefs... Dorsey is the reason for their turnaround IMO...

From: Rocky
21-Nov-18
Z, If Dorsey can score a shut down corner and shore up a quality DE he will have made the leap to keep them not only in games, but the drive stopping power they would need to get the ball back into Mayfield's hands late in the game coming from behind or to preserve a lead. This team seemed so close on many losses this year but could not stop the game ending clock eating drives. The only problem is Dorsey does not like free agent signings to eat up his overflowing cap space money. The only other way is through someone in development or the draft which makes it difficult, but not impossible, to step right in and make a difference. There will be DE's and Corners out there this year in F Agency but Dorsey won't back up the truck full of money. We'll see.

The Rock

From: HA/KS
21-Nov-18
I wonder how many teams would trade their starting QB straight across for Mahomes today if they got the chance? I bet even some big names late in their careers would be going to KC.

From: Zbone
21-Nov-18
Yep Rocky, I agree... We'll see...

HA/KS - Although I like My-Homes Boy better, I'm satisfied with Mayfield right now... Hopefully these two will battle it out like Big12 contenders for years to come...8^)

21-Nov-18
Henry,

I bet Bellicheck would take that trade at the end of the season recognizing it is his best chance to extend his own tenure as head coach.

The Giants as well. Maybe even the Saints.

From: Rocky
21-Nov-18
I believe Tom Brady and Drew Brees are a direct result of the system in which they operate. Ironically both of these truly great QB's, and these ARE time tested great QB's, have had success with a number of otherwise under achieving and undersized no name receivers. Therein lays the secret to game planning and seamed route configurations which create separation and isolation. This stems from creative coaching as much as QB direct input. What explanation could there be for the turnover of receivers year in and year out and the results remain basically the same? The only constant is the coaching. Granted these QB's are gifted no doubt, but their experience to read defenses and their coaching of a system that counters the read is their greatest strengths.

BTW..both Tom Brady and Drew Brees can't be traded even if they asked for it.

The Rock

From: Ace
21-Nov-18
Fun topic, no right or wrong answers here, but of course we all think we're right ...

Bill Parcells used to say: "Let's not put him in Canton yet", I think that applies here. He's having one hell of a year, BUT ...

Injuries, his or key teammates, could change things around in a hurry. In the NFL an ACL tear, or a concussion etc. could come along on any play, and lots of promising careers have been cut very short. Hell, sometime the early success goes to a young man's head, and he never progresses as far or as fast as he might have otherwise. I hope that's not the case with Mahomes.

He looks like he's learning to read defenses, but he has to continue to develop in that area as D coordinators and defensive players learn his tendencies and figure out what works against him. The Chiefs will certainly have to spend some money on Free Agents and to keep some of the Talent and coaches around him. They haven't always been so quick to write big checks.

It's WAY too soon to talk about his place history, and it's pretty much impossible to compare players from very different eras (although it's a lot of fun).

If Marino had won a superbowl or 3, he'd be talked about like he was Tom Brady. Peyton Mannig was yesterday's GOAT, now his star seems to have faded some. Aaron Rodgers has people saying: Brett who? Let's not forget that Terry Bradshaw had an amazing career, but he doesn't get much love any more. I used to love to watch Dan Fouts throw the ball, but few put him on any list.

One of my sons was saying to me just the other day: "there are like 25 QBs on the list of top 10 QBs of all time", I think there is a lot of truth to that statement.

As Bum Philips said about Earl Campbell: Tom Brady "is probably not in a class by himself, but it don't take long to call roll". I do however take a LOT of satisfaction that my Giants and the much maligned little brother Manning, beat him/them (twice).

Personally since I grew up friends with Steve Young, (I'll always have a bit of hate for Montana), and I'll always respect the way Steve handled himself, worked so hard at getting better, and overcame so much, and just had so much heart. Once, when I was telling Steve's mother what Fantasy Footbal was, I told her that my fantasy team QBs always got hurt, she made promise, actually promise her, that I would never draft Steve. I never did.

From: Pig Doc
21-Nov-18
If I was starting a team and could pick any one player in the NFL it would be Mahomes. If he stays healthy and interested he will break every passing record in the history of the league.

From: Rocky
21-Nov-18
Pig,

QB's throw the ball. Receivers catch the ball. Coaches teaches them how to do it all, put it all together and places them in a position to succeed. QB's can't do it on individual talent alone. Too many variables to predict record breaking. Btw....Goff, Wence and a host of other young QB's will have something to say about that including Tua who is still in college and looks immortal.

The Rock

From: Grey Ghost
22-Nov-18
With the new candy-ass rules, that penalize the defense for farting on a QB or receiver, breaking passing records is a given.

I'll ask it again, if Elway, Marino, Montana, etc....would have played their entire careers with these girly rules, do you think Mahomes would still be breaking records?

Matt

22-Nov-18
The Chiefs brass knew what they were doing when they drafted this kid,and sent Alex to D.C. He's a HOF'er if stays healthy and they keep a good core around him. Plus I've been a Chiefs fan since Montana went there, so I'd like to see them win the Super Bowl Go Chiefs!!

From: Rocky
22-Nov-18
Matt, I agree. There should be asterisk AFTER each QB record and their numbers designating the period and rule changes that impacted those numbers. The Philly sports stations this past week were rating pure QB talent, their release and accuracy over a 20 yd. reception less the yards after the catch throwing from the pocket and 68% said Dan Marino was the greatest ever. John Elway and Joe Montana were best with their ability to throw from a moving pocket or rollout. Velocity and release: Marino then Elway.

People do not realize how gifted these two QB'S were. The Kansas City Royals of MLB drafted both Marino (4th) and Elway (19th) in the MLB draft and offered them both contracts and a boat load of money as high school seniors. Both were drafted as future diamond chip pitchers but they had tagged Marino as a can't miss third baseman with his quick release and velocity when they tried him out. Dan Marino wanted to sign right then because he wanted to play Major League ball but Marino's father said they could not pass up a full paid scholarship to Pitt. if he did not play football.The Royals at the Marino family table said "no problem send us the bill". Dan Marino full filled his fathers wishes to graduate from college. The rest as the Royals would later say is "history". John Elway was intrigued but never wandered from the sport he was destined to play and went on to graduate from Stanford. Those of us who appreciate off the charts talent were better for it and they both served us something never seen before or since. This is of course not to impune one of the greatest QB'S ever also Joe Montana.

The Rock

22-Nov-18
Patrick Mahones.

Tattoo it to your brain.

'nough said.

;)

Way tougher game today. The guys hit much harder. Way more injuries. Keep making excuses.

From: Rocky
22-Nov-18
"Patrick Mahones.

Tattoo it to your brain."

No thanks. Still having RG111 removed as we speak. "Way tougher game today. The guys hit much harder. Way more injuries. Keep making excuses."

Here is one excuse you can make and explain. Why is it these"injuries" always occur as a result of self inflicted wounds. Rarely is the injury due to a collision or viscous hit. Look up the stats.

btw...talk to Jack Tatum the "Assassin" from Oakland about knocking guys cold when the term "defenseless player" was never dreamed of" or Dick Butkus about roughing the passer. What a fuqn joke...

The Rock

22-Nov-18
Bo Jackson would have run over Butkus just like he did what's his name?

Guys were girly men back then;)

From: HA/KS
22-Nov-18
In my mind, Bo must be in any discussion of the best athlete ever to play in the NFL.

Mahomes? Ask me in 15 years.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Nov-18
Back when NFL QBs played a man's sport.....

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
22-Nov-18
And, in case some of you Mahomeys forgot what a great QB arm is.... Check out the velocity and trajectory of some of these throws.

Matt

From: Zbone
22-Nov-18
Rocky - "talk to Jack Tatum the "Assassin" " Hey, I met Jack Tatum when he/they (OSU Buckeyes) came to my high school for a promotional pickup basketball game... Even got his autograph that day... Now he was a freakn football player, and yes the "Assassin", he'd knock you block off....

Okay, since we have Elway highlights (I still almost cry seeing "The Drive" highlights), let's list our top 10 all time best QBs... This will be good, lets see how they rank in people minds... Lemme go get paper and pencil...

From: Zbone
22-Nov-18
Thanksgiving is about over, so setting here watching football and started writing them down, ended up with 20...8^)

Here's mine in order:

1 - John Elway

2 - Arron Rodgers

3 - Dan Marino

4 - Tom Brady

5 - Brett Favre

6 - Joe Montana

7 - Peyton Manning

8 - Kurt Warner

9 - Roger Staubach

10 - Troy Aikman

11 - Phillip Rivers

12 - Ben Roethlisberger

13 - Warren Moon

14 - Steve Young

15 - Bart Starr

16 - Joe Namath

17 - Kenny The Snake Stabler

18 - Johnny Unitas

19 - Terry Bradshaw

20 - Len Dawson

Okay, these guys above I all seen play...

Never seen them play, only highlights so honorable mention for Otto Graham and Sling'n Sammy Baugh...

When I was a kid, my first favorite was Bart Starr, then Roman Gabriel, then it was Bob Grease, before it was Brian Sipe, then I grew up...8^) When young, my dad wouldn't allow me to like Namath because he had long hair and wore white shoes... That's true...8^)

Hated John Elway when he was playing because of The Drive and The Fumble, but always respected him, so much so I listed him as my G.O.A.T....

From: Rocky
22-Nov-18

Rocky's Link

From: woodguy65
23-Nov-18
"Bo Jackson would have run over Butkus just like he did what's his name? Guys were girly men back then;)"

The BOZ.

Bo Jackson is the greatest running back to have ever played, had he remained healthy the records would never be broken and he would own all of them. He was super human - an absolute freak. He had world class speed, world class strength, size and unbelievable athleticism/talent.

I read his book - for a sports bio - an excellent read- btw, he grew up hunting and an AVID bow hunter.

From: woodguy65
23-Nov-18
GOAT:

1: Montana

2: Brady

3-20: everybody else

*When Brady retires I may switch the 2 around.

23-Nov-18
What's the title of this thread?

That's right, it's not 'Montana' or 'Brady' or....

Greatest quarterback ever, if he.....

Guys, I have been pushing you all along. It is way too early to predict anything until about 10-15 years from now. He is great though for our city today, and at 23 he seems to have his head on straight. It's easy to cheer for him. Beats the heck out of talking about Colin somebody;)

Wood, I knew it was Boz. My point was some of us remember all of the hype about how great he was supposed to be, never to be thought of the same way after that glorious impact with Bo. Who knew? Bo knew!

What I like most about PM, he is classy enough to have many forget about the Protester and remember why we all liked football before his self aggrandizing stunt.

Still disagree about the game being easier today. Every sport has seen an improvement in athletic ability, football is no exception. The human body is still only capable of withstanding a certain level of G-force. The changed rules are necessary today.

Look at golf and how Tiger elevated the game. Now look how many young people have equalled his driving ability during his peak. Longer or tougher courses are being designed to deal with this.

Football is great. Dump the boycott!

From: Grey Ghost
23-Nov-18
The whole "today's football is bigger, faster, harder hitting than in the past" thing is nonsense. Any minimal improvement in athletic abilities have been negated by rule changes. No helmet to helmet contact, no hitting "defenseless" receivers, no hitting QBs with anything but arm tackles, etc, etc...have turned football into soccer's second cousin.

Guys like Dick Butkus, Lyle Alzado, Steve Atwater, Mean Joe Green, Jack Lambert, Ray Lewis, Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum, Lawrence Taylor, "Tombstone" Jackson, Deacon Jones... just to name a few....are probably embarrassed by today's game.

Matt

23-Nov-18
Matt,

One of Robin's patients was the backup to Lenny Dawson. Actually has a lot to do with their Super Bowl season. He told her it is way tougher today, no doubt.

I will take a pro's word that actually played.

The son-in-law of one of your cousin's and mine's former neighbor had the incoming freshman bench press record for MU. He was a three year starting defensive lineman. This was the mid 90s. 400 lbs, free bar. Didn't take long for the record to be broken.

Again, look at the Combines.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Nov-18
What is there to see in the combines, Frank? 4.3 second 40s, 30" vertical leaps, 30 reps benching 250#, etc...have always been the benchmarks, and remain so today. Perhaps more athletes reach those benchmarks today, but that's a simple function of population growth and popularity of the sport.

The truth is, the league has regulated much of the violence out of the sport. For better or worse, the game has turned into soccer with helmets. I still love it, but it's nowhere close to the game it used to be, IMO.

And one backup ex-player's opinion doesn't make it truth. I've heard many ex-NFL starters say the exact opposite.

Matt

23-Nov-18
Chris on MNF also says it is much tougher, on national TV. The Combines have shown dramatic improvement, not just in averages, but the peaks as well.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Nov-18
Frank, why do you refuse to acknowledge that rule changes have made football less violent, and more offense friendly? That is simple fact, and it makes Mahomes' records misleading, IMO.

Look, I understand Chief country is enamored with Mahomes. And rightfully so, considering it's been 48 years since they won a SB. But, let's not forget Mahomes inherited a playoff caliber team. He may be the spark that finally leads the Chiefs to a championship, or he may be a one-season wonder like so many are. Only time will tell.

Matt

From: woodguy65
23-Nov-18
"Chris on MNF"...context? Are you sure he's not talking about - playing defense is tougher now because you can't touch the QB, or the receivers...cause that's a fact.

The QB and receiving records will all be re-written in the near future because of the new rules - they have made it easier to throw and catch, period. That's the way they want it though - high scoring and the most expensive merchandise (QB) protected to the greatest extent possible and still call it "tackle football".

Are the guys tougher now than in prior decades - LOL - no way!

Are most current players faster at their position - overall I would say so.

Although I like to watch the high scoring as much as anybody, - if I could choose between letting them go back to hitting each other and the high scoring, I would choose go back to the snot jerking de-cleated hits.

23-Nov-18
Matt,

I went to HS '73-'77. Freshman year we won the V state championship for our class. I was not on the team.;) Probably why we won.

A couple of the guys could do 250 on a free bar, they were gods. Today 300 is common in HS.

Think of all the personal trainers, nuitrition etc. Things unheard of in our day. Performance, speed, strength, size have made the game totally different today.

Sure, in the old days there were the freaks who laid a whomping on the unsuspecting average guy, and legends were created. Most are freaks today. That wasn't football back then, it did not involve the athleticism of today. Think of running back speed and hurdling agility common today. Those were street brawls;). I watch UFC to get my fill of that.

23-Nov-18
Woodguy, I bet more adjustments are made to harass the receivers and QB. Defenses will adjust.

Chris was a WR.

I played in HS. I would rather get hit and chased by the average player back then, than the average HS player today.

But, I will say it again, I was pushing buttons. Long time before we can conclude anything about Mahones except he is having a spectacular 2018 season which includes breaking some long standing records. I don't predict the future.

BTW, lots of QBs out there not doing so great with this pansy game today. No talent around them? Alex Smith had basically the same talent and didn't get out of it what Mahomes is. Same coaches. Think Mahomes deserves a lot of the credit?

From: HA/KS
23-Nov-18

HA/KS's embedded Photo
Hall of Famer Wilbur “Pete” Henry, aka “Fats,” was one of the NFL’s largest and most dominant linemen in the 1920s at 5 feet 11 inches and 245 pounds
HA/KS's embedded Photo
Hall of Famer Wilbur “Pete” Henry, aka “Fats,” was one of the NFL’s largest and most dominant linemen in the 1920s at 5 feet 11 inches and 245 pounds

HA/KS's Link
I am reminded of an ad on TV a few years ago. The guy had been an Olympic swimmer. One point in the ad was that now the women were faster than he had been.

There is little comparison between size and physical abilities of current players and those from 30+ years ago. That is a separate question from whether or not the game is tougher.

As for the discussion drifting away from a strict discussion of whether or not Mahomes is fun to watch, that is a risk the originator of any thread takes.

23-Nov-18
The list of great QBs...all had something not quantifiable besides great physical and mental ability. Leadership, guys wanted to play for them and in many cases gave more than they recognized they were capable of.

It will take a lot of tests before we know. Brady certainly has it.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Nov-18
"A couple of the guys could do 250 on a free bar, they were gods. Today 300 is common in HS."

So what? It doesn't matter if they can't use that strength to inflict pain and intimidation on their opponents because of rule changes. That's the part you just don't seem to get, or don't want to. The simple fact is, today's game is a sissy-fied version of previous decades, regardless of athletic ability. Hit's that used to be considered fair ,hard-nosed, and desirable are now flagged for "unnecessary roughness". Can't land on a QB with your full body weight? What a joke. Lineman used to body slam QBs on their heads. No helmet to helmet? Really? Some of the best hits used to involve helmets flying off the recipients heads.

Sorry, I agree with Rocky, any current QB records should have an asterisk beside them.

Matt

From: Will
23-Nov-18
I have to giggle every time I see a greatest qb list that has Brady lower than 2. That's just bias floating around. Debate about Montana, sure - and that debate is ONLY due to 4/0 in Super Bowl's with zero picks. That's it. The list is Montana - Brady, 1-2 or 2-1, then everyone else. Cracked me up, all the Rogers Brady debate as greatest ever a few weeks back. Rogers is AMAZING and Ill consider a top 10 ever when he's done... But I'd say a very strong debate can be made that Drew Bree's has been better, and for a longer time frame. It's amazing to me that people put Rogers so high. He's awesome, but several contemporaries have played as well for as long or longer.

P Mahomes looks awesome... Hope he stay's that way. The NFL needs new blood at that position!

From: Rocky
23-Nov-18
Matt,

I agree all the way down the line and could not have said it better. What people do NOT seem to realize is the psychological aspect of the new present day "protections" that have been instituted. Going "over the middle" is not the same today as it once was psychologically. Receivers know the rule changes and allow for them to go for the high and reach out ball, but, watch closely sometimes and they still pull up with alligators arms. Years ago before the "untouchable" rules came in "GOTM" served a whole new meaning for receivers reserved only for the fearless. Now everybody is fearless. Today's athletes are bigger stronger and faster which is expected with recent advances but the mental conditioning has without a doubt waned in regards to reckless destructive play....and that was the allure of football, the Gladiator mindset. Now they hide cell phones in the goal posts and rehearse Broadway acts in the end zone when they score. WWF...World Wrestling Football and Vince McMann should be getting royalties.

The Rock

The Rock

From: Zbone
23-Nov-18
Oh shoot, I forgot Drew Brees… I amend my list, placing him at 4 and dropping Brady down to 5 and so on...8^)

23-Nov-18

Habitat for Wildlife's Link

From: Grey Ghost
23-Nov-18
Keep Googling, Frank. That article does nothing to address the rule changes that have negated the affects of "bigger, faster, stronger, blah blah blah.....".

Matt

23-Nov-18
Matt,

You and Rock, based on your logic, want us to go back to the days when men were really tough-no pads and a leather covering instead of a helmet. Ridiculous.

We keep changing the rules because they are always getting faster, stronger etc.

I will take the laws of physics over a couple senior coach potatoes;). You go tell one of them they're a pansy.

From: Will
23-Nov-18
Zbone = steelers/jets/colts fan :) he he he (just kidding man!)

From: Rocky
23-Nov-18
Frank,

Speaking for myself and my age I think they are pansy asses compared to the players of the 70's -90's and I am old enough and smart enough to tell them that to their face because I would come prepared and possess the resources to have more than the equalizer standing next to me when I say it. You remain in fear in them.

You don't know what or who you are talking about.

The Rock

From: Chiefs-fan
24-Nov-18
If the NFL doesn’t make the rule-changes they do for today’s game the (and the faster bigger players) the sport would be disallowed with all the players who would be filing lawsuits against the nfl as far as concussions and brain injuries! So either accept today’s game and quit whining or boycott the NFL because it’s not the old style game you love...

From: Grey Ghost
25-Nov-18
Frank,

You're being surprisingly dense on this subject. No one said NFL players are "pansies". No one has disputed the players are bigger and faster today (excluding the steroid era). You are the one who keeps clinging to those arguments.

What you fail to understand is recent rule changes have made the game much less violent than a few decades ago. They have also made the league more offense/passing friendly, since most casual fans like high scoring games. Those two facts will completely rewrite the passing record books, regardless of physical abilities. I can only conclude you aren't a very serious fan, if you don't know understand this.

At one time Dan Marino held the all-time passing yardage record. He passed Fran Tarkenton, who held the record for almost 2 decades. Since then, 4 QBs have surpassed Marino's record. Why do think that is? If your answer is rule changes, you'd be correct. If your answer is something else, you're just being a dope. ;-)

Matt

From: Rocky
25-Nov-18
Here it goes just like the current crop of 2018 athletes and fan mindset: boycott. What we are talking about is the ferocity of the game and the psychology of intimidation which affects performance. Any pro receiver can make a catch over the middle or in the air knowing they have nothing to fear and that the defense MUST layup. Football was, at one time was go for that catch and you MAY be blown up. You made the choice. Go for it or sit or pull up and then sit by yourself at the end of the bench.

Records are being broken by QB's and receivers today and then they have the audacity and disrespect to compare them to GREAT players who would have thrown for 12,000 yds in a season and receivers would have caught 350 balls if they had played today with the new rule changes. Change the rules you change the game. You change the game you change the stats. Let these men play no rules football and come back and report the scores and stats. The injury count would be higher than the game score and that's the point. The game must be played somewhere in-between but they have moved the game to the extreme end of hurting your friggin' pinky. Can't have injuries you know in a game designed, physically prepared and protected for reckless enjoyment.

Seth Joiner a HOF linebacker who played for the Eagles and Buddy Ryan covers the eagles commentary after each game and summarizes. Granted Joiner was built in the Butkis mode but bigger and faster. Every week he wrly smiles when they discuss all the receptions and quick slant routes that teams run these days. He told a story about the mindset of football then not too long ago 1996. Somebody comes over the middle "my" territory he is getting punished with or without the ball. Only takes one penalty when a receiver comes over the middle like he is running in a field of daisies and get blown the F..UP.. When he comes over next time he comes into that turf dancing on eggshells, his head is on a swivel looking not for the ball, but looking for me. Some guys were tough and just kept coming and one TE spit even me when when I blew him up. I knew I was in for a long night while I was trying to shorten his. I won some and lost some but that's the game."

Right there. That which makes you stand and applaud when players play balls out for your entertainment and which you came to see. Seth Joiner was a players player respected and feared across the league, and could not have said it better "that's the game".

The Rock

25-Nov-18
Not dense at all Matt. I played and remain a student of the game.

Many reasons for improved records that have little, if anything, to do with rule changes:

16 game season.

Higher percentage of pass plays today versus running.

Shotgun versus under center.

Much quicker release times because of the above and better athleticism.

Better training, coaching and techniques.

Huge, agile, fast, tough to bring down running backs that force defenses to play both the run and pass.

Natural progression of improvement we see in EVERY sport.

I could go on.

The sport, like life, continues to evolve. Think how defenses are coached to raise their arms on every pass play. That just happened in our adult lives Matt.

Matt, honestly, you are starting to sound like one of the old grumpy guys you complain about. We will see if the rule changes effect career longevity. That's still questionable given the increased kinectic energy being absorbed by players when tackled.

Rocky, I see the pendulum swung back to the tough guy routine. At 59 and comfortable with what I have done, it is not fear but respect I have for the dedication these guys have.

In '86 did not the SB QB from the Bears show up with a case of beer for training camp? Doubt that happens today. Most spend the entire off season, oh wait, there ain't an off season.

Your serve. Make it better than that last pathetic one.

;)

25-Nov-18
Rock, they still get hit hard, just not when they are defenseless. Those old toothless Butkus era LBs were not playing football, guys would run right around them today with those slant routes.

Mike Tyson got beat when the first boxer decided to box him instead of trading shots on who could hit harder. Today's players have intelligence besides physical prowess.

Ali, "float like a butterfly..." Rope a dope...beat some really tough, hard punchers and was crowned The Greatest.

My life changed permanently at 19 when I went airborne to catch my third consecutive ball over the middle. Linebacker laid me out. I still hung on, shattered L4-5, never played again. Could not walk off the field. What a waste! Toughest thing I ever did was finish USMC OCS. I just got back from junior increment, had two years to try and be prepared for senior increment. If they knew, they would have never let me go back.

I graduated, but life was never the same. Surgery 4 years ago. The LB was frustrated, I ran simple, yet crisp J hook patterns he could not keep with me. Ball was high, he took advantage of the situation. That was the mentality, try and hurt someone if you are not as good an athlete. I am glad they are taking that aspect out of the sport, go MMA if you want to prove how tough you are.

BTW, I had a good reason to pass on going back to OCS, but I refused to spend the rest of my life wondering if I was tough enough or not. Only reason I went back. Instead, I have spent 40 years wondering about that one day.

From: Grey Ghost
25-Nov-18

Grey Ghost's Link
Watch the video, Frank. Let me know if you have any questions.

And those were just the beginning of the rule changes that favor the offense and QBs.

Matt

25-Nov-18
Googling again? Lol!

FOX FOOTBALL, two minutes ago, I almost quote;

"Every few years we have offenses that go nuts, and then defenses catch up."

I think they know more Matt.

25-Nov-18
Matt,

Bunch of cheap shots, had nothing to do with football.

Look, they are just better today. You don't get it, that's OK. We are within 3 minutes of breaking two hours for a marathon. It will happen.

Shoes are better, clothing is better. They play a part. Still mostly the person.

Mahomes stays healthy, it will be a new standard. You can make excuses all you want if it makes you feel better. I will sit back and continue to be amazed.

From: Rocky
25-Nov-18
Frank,

How the hell are defenses going to catch up if they are not permitted to defend, put 13 guys on the field. C'mon frank. Defenses catch up to individual players not the game itself when it is forever changing. The score could be 3-3. What catching up was done?

The Rock

From: Grey Ghost
25-Nov-18

Grey Ghost's Link
Some more reading for you, Frank.

http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats/

From: HA/KS
25-Nov-18
"Ali, "float like a butterfly."

The most overrated athlete of all time.

I think that some linemen today are faster than most backs were 50 years ago.

It is true that rules have been changed to protect players (mostly offense, but the chop block rule was changed to protect pass rushers). However, DB's are allowed to get away with much more contact than in the past without drawing a PI flag.

25-Nov-18
Henry,

You never boxed. He won, the other guys beat him hard, ran out of gas. He fought smart. I didn't like him then, appreciate he beat Frazier and many others I said would win. He made new rules, and that's what bothered us, just like with the best football players today.

Matt, Marino ever throw with his opposite hand? In his first 12 games?

Rock, how about the receivers just poke the DB in the eyes back then, no rules, at all.

Today's players are better, but keep digging. And googling, LOL!

From: Grey Ghost
25-Nov-18
How NFL Rules Changes Created a Golden Era of Quarterback Stats

ESPN’s Tim Hasselbeck walks us through the tweaks that help QBs put up staggering career numbers.

Sports By Sean Cunningham 12 months ago Let’s start with a statement few football fans would debate: New England Patriot Tom Brady and New Orleans Saint Drew Brees are really good at playing quarterback. (They’ve combined for five Super Bowl MVPs and 22 Pro Bowls—indeed, Brady can go to parties and do… this.)

You may not appreciate, however, just how historically superb they are, both ranking among the top four QBs all-time in career completions, passing yards, and touchdown passes.

The other two members of the top four are Peyton Manning (retired in 2015) and Brett Favre (retired in 2010).

The top 10 in those categories features three additional active QBs: New York Giant Eli Manning, Pittsburgh Steeler Ben Roethlisberger, and Los Angeles Charger Philip Rivers.

Steadily approaching the top 10 are Green Bay’s Aaron Rodgers (already #9 in touchdown passes) and Arizona’s Carson Palmer…

Wait, Carson Palmer? The Carson Palmer best known for threatening to retire if the Bengals didn’t trade him, which resulted in him being sent to the Raiders, where he went 8-16 as a starter?

Yep, that Carson Palmer. Seems he’s #11 in completions, #13 in passing yards, and #12 in touchdown passes. Even if Palmer never plays another down after his recent injury, he’s still ahead of four-time Super Bowl champ and two-time NFL MVP Joe Montana in all three categories.

No disrespect to Palmer or anyone else on the list, but the NFL was founded in 1920. How is it possible that a majority of the game’s most prolific quarterbacks are either playing now or were in their prime in the last decade? (Hell, three of them came from the same 2004 draft class: Eli and Rivers were traded for each other!)

“By and large, the NFL has really tried to enhance scoring and benefited the offense,” said ESPN NFL analyst Tim Hasselbeck, who’s here to help explain just how the league does this. (Tim is inclined to sympathize with offense: he not only played quarterback in the NFL, but his brother Matt did too.)

Some recent rule changes make it easier for quarterbacks to complete passes. Others just make it possible for them to stay physically intact long after earlier generations had been battered into retirement. Here’s a quick timeline of why today’s defensive coordinators don’t get much sleep.

1993: It is not intentional grounding when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player has a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).

“Take something like the ability to throw the football away. You’re outside the tackle box and all you need to do is get the ball to the line of scrimmage. Obviously that creates a protection for the quarterback.” (Beyond the safety standpoint, this also spares QBs a lot of interceptions, since they can lob the ball where no defender could possibly make a play.)

1995: When tackling a passer during or just after throwing a pass, a defensive player is prohibited from unnecessarily and violently throwing him down and landing on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight.

“Quarterbacks, when they’re in the pocket… they’ve never been taught to look around at who’s coming to hit them. They’ve been taught to look downfield: you’re looking at the coverage and you’re trying to find who’s open. So when you get hit, you usually don’t know where it’s coming from. I think the league has realized that’s a very defenseless position.”

(As a reminder of how thoroughly linebackers used to be able to manhandle quarterbacks, here’s a short clip of Hall of Fame linebacker Dick Butkus.)

In particular, this rule limiting the force tacklers can use to take down a QB seeks to reduce head injuries: “Oftentimes they drive you into the ground and your head kind of does a double tap on the ground. That’s a reason why quarterbacks for the longest time have been the most concussed position on the field.”

2002: It is illegal to hit a quarterback helmet-to-helmet any time after a change of possession.

This eliminated a particularly ruthless bit of defensive strategy: “It used to be that the quarterback throws an interception, the defenders they were taught, ‘Hey, go find number 14 and hit him as hard as you can. Free shot on the quarterback. Do it as violently as you can.’ That’s changed.”

Hasselbeck also noted that, in the event of a turnover, coaches today will often urge the QB to focus on self-preservation as opposed to try to turn into Lawrence Taylor: “If Tom Brady throws an interception, the idea of taking on a defensive lineman who’s trying to put a block on him on the return, I think most reasonable minds would say that’s probably not a battle we want him fighting.”

2006: Low hits on the quarterback are prohibited when a rushing defender has an opportunity to avoid such contact.

“Preventing guys from being around your feet is a big one for longevity.”

2007: A block below the waist against an eligible receiver while the quarterback is in the pocket is a 15-yard penalty instead of a 5-yard penalty (an illegal cut block).

How many times have you seen a quarterback looking for an open receiver… but they’re all covered… and he keeps looking… and suddenly he’s obliterated for a sack. The NFL strives to reduce these moments. Hasselbeck noted the NFL has put limits on defenders “in terms of how you can make contact with receivers as they’re trying to get open… With the size and athleticism of receivers and your inability to defend them, that’s been a big part of quarterbacks being able to get out of their hand quickly.”

2009: It is an illegal hit on a defenseless receiver if the initial force of the contact by the defender’s helmet, forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of the receiver. Penalty: 15 yards.

“I do believe that as the NFL has looked at making the game safer, one of the things that they’ve tried to do is acknowledge that there are plays where people in general, whether quarterbacks or receivers, are deemed defenseless.”

2009: Clarified rule regarding low hits on passers: A defender cannot initiate a roll or lunge and forcibly hit the passer in the knee area or below, even if he is being contacted by another player.

This is known as the “Brady rule,” because it was implemented after Brady was knocked out for the entire 2008 season by the play below:

Quite simply, rules like this have been a mitzvah for the longevity of QBs across the league: “The effort to keep people off of guys’ knees and the head and neck area is probably the number one thing that has helped guys be healthy each and every week.”

Indeed, Hasselbeck said that rule changes have made it so that defensive legends from earlier decades would have to take an entirely new approach to the game: “[Hall of Fame cornerback and safety] Ronnie Lott was one of the most feared guys because of the way he hit people. He probably wouldn’t be allowed to hit people… not probably, he wouldn’t be allowed to hit people the way he did back when he played. Would he be a guy who was suspended every other week?” (Based on the clips of “The Hitman” in the second half of this video, the answer is, “Oh, most definitely.”)

Even less violent defenders from previous NFL eras would have been impacted: “There are guys who played corner by being physical all the way down the field. They got up and they mauled guys. You’re not allowed to do that any more either.”

If you’re comparing quarterbacks from earlier eras to today’s, it’s worth remembering that far too many older stars had their careers shortened by plays the NFL would severely penalize today: “Steve Young’s career ended because of a brutal hit from Aeneas Williams that knocks him out.” (Note: This play is horrifying.)

Today? “You can’t hit guys like that any more. That extends careers.”

There is also a focus today on quarterbacks keeping themselves on the field: “Sliding feet-first is way more acceptable now than it ever was—in many cases it’s taught.” Indeed, often a quarterback will just “give himself up” for a sack: “That used to be a thing that people would have never thought of doing at the position.”

Taken all together, you have a league where quarterbacks (and their receivers) are safer and there is every incentive to throw the ball: “Quarterbacks have definitely benefited from an interceptions standpoint, a volume of attempts standpoint.”

It becomes reasonable to ask: When we fixate on passing stats, are we selling short the star quarterbacks of yesterday?

Hasselbeck said we may be unfairly dismissive of players from different eras (focusing, for instance, on how Joe Namath threw more career interceptions than touchdowns): “Roger Staubach, I don’t think anybody disputes how incredible he was for the Dallas Cowboys. Then Troy Aikman’s number are better than his and Tony Romo’s numbers are better than his. So you say, ‘Well, Is that a fair indicator?’ Business was being done much differently back then.”

Here’s a crude but effective way to adjust for the fact that modern quarterbacks have both longer careers and typically throw the ball more times each game than their predecessors. Look at the career leaders in yards per pass attempt. There are modern players—those tied for fifth most all-time include Romo, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, and Russell Wilson—but #1 is Otto Graham (who retired in 1955), #2 is Sid Luckman (1950), and #3 is Norm Van Brocklin (1960). All three are championship-winning Hall of Famers. Indeed, “The Dutchman” Van Brocklin passed for a still-record 554 yards in a single game.

Yet none of them crack the top 50 in career pass completions, touchdowns, or yards.

So does this mean today’s quarterbacks, even those with video game numbers, are overrated and would struggle in earlier eras?

Hasselbeck fully acknowledges the way the game aims to accommodate QBs today but still thinks that, regardless of rules, the cream will always rise to the top: “There’s certain guys you watched and thought, ‘He’s got the arm, he’s got the physical skill set, the mindset.’ They’re passing the eye test. I think that those guys would be successful in any era. They were successful in their era because they were doing the things they needed to do. Peyton, Jim Kelly, Brett Favre, these guys are just physically really talented and loved the competition. I think they would have been able to adjust.”

Below, behold one of those guys who seem like they could have gotten it done at any time: two-time Super Bowl champ, 1971 Player of the Year, and Hall of Famer for the Cowboys, “Captain Comeback” Roger Staubach.

But, I'm sure Frank knows more than a actual NFL QB.

Matt

25-Nov-18
And you know more than Bradshaw and the rest of FOX. OK, feel better?

We all have OPINIONS, and that is all they are.

I would rather take an all out hit from the average player in my time than the average player today.

Players do last longer, maybe some rule changes impact that, but so does year around conditioning and unbelievable medical advancements. Think knee surgery today versus just 20 years ago.

Matt, honestly, leaving all of these other changes out of the discussion makes your argument less credible to me.

The game has changed, and 40 years from now Mahomes will be a footnote at best. It will continue to improve. Every generation stretches greatness. That's the beauty of the human experience. It's not limited to sports, but everything we apply our talents to.

God bless, I will quit debating. I agree that you are wrong, again;)

Just kidding, putting this down to watch some Sunday pansies. Enjoy your day.

From: Grey Ghost
25-Nov-18
Likewise, Frank.

My day continues to improve in stand. Numerous average buck sightings, and 2 does just strolled under me. Hoping big daddy will be along shortly.

Matt

25-Nov-18
Good luck!

We came back from the farm very early this morning. A blizzard is beginning here.

From: Grey Ghost
25-Nov-18
Likewise, Frank.

My day continues to improve in stand. Numerous average buck sightings, and 2 does just strolled under me. Hoping big daddy will be along shortly.

Matt

From: Zbone
25-Nov-18
Hey, I forgot Dan Fouts on my list... I amend again and place him 10th, and move everybody below him down again...8^)

02-Dec-18
He just threw his 40th touchdown pass of the season.

This is after a no-call late hit, full weight of the defender landed on him.

From: Dirk Diggler
02-Dec-18
Zbone if you think John Elway is the goat I'm guessin yer a browns fan?

02-Dec-18
He ranks second, behind Peyton, for most 4 touchdown pass games in a season. That's ahead of Brady, Marino, Favre etc.

From: Dirk Diggler
02-Dec-18
Theres more to quarterbackin than throwin td's.

02-Dec-18
Agreed Dirk, but he so far seems to have the "more" as well.

From: Rocky
02-Dec-18
Carson Wence of the Eagles has a higher QB rating ( 100.6) than Mahomes (92). The Eagles are 5-6. Go figure.

Mahomes has one thing against him and its not his fault. The KC playoff jinx and Andy Reid folding under pressure.

The Rock

From: Zbone
03-Dec-18
Dirk Diggler - "Zbone if you think John Elway is the goat I'm guessin yer a browns fan?"

Unfortunately, yeah... Hated the guy, but through the years kinda gained respect for him... I think respect started when I seen him score a touchdown running through the endzone and stopped to give a kid in a wheelchair the football... At the time kinda caught me off guard and began to think well maybe the guy ain't and so bad and started to change my hatred... Years later I actually went to work in Denver (long story), but anyhow those people out there treat him like a god... BUT, talked one person out there that knew him and said he's a jerk... Take it for what its worth, but at least the Browns don't have to play him anymore...8^)

10-Dec-18
Did you see that come back yesterday? Against the top rated defense. After two missed field goals should have ended it in regulation time.

Chief's defense also stepped up.

Their only 2 losses, were close, and away games, otherwise they would be undefeated.

Two more passing TDs and over 300 yards again.

And he stands for the Anthem. A guy we can all support!

10-Dec-18
He is already tied for 8th place with Drew Brees for most passing touchdowns in a season, with two games to go.

From: Will
10-Dec-18
He's good. I just hope he continues to work at it, and they work on that "D" overall.

Best part about the kid, is that he seems to really play well when they are behind - there appears to be no "quit" in him... No, that's not it. He's got no apparent "front runner" in him. That's what makes Brady Brady - if he's winning by 30, he wants to win by 40. If he's losing by 20, he thinks he's going to lead a comeback and win by 20.

Mahomes seems the same way. Impressive to watch.

From: Bake
10-Dec-18
I feel like a broken record. . . . But he is so much fun to watch, as a Chiefs fan.

A no look pass. A 40+ yard 4th down conversion.

Like others have said above, it's much too soon to talk about his future, but for right now, Chiefs fans are having a lot of fun.

I have my doubts with their defense that they could pull off a Super Bowl win, or even go deep into the playoffs. But they have a great base to build on, and I'm already excited for next year

From: Zbone
10-Dec-18
Luved the no-look pass...

From: Rocky
10-Dec-18
When Andy Reid was in Philly the man won many ball games and I liked him even though his press conferences were less than much fun. He should have won the Super Bowl against one of the best Pat's team of all-time when McNabb only had to bring the Eagles down for field goal to win the game at the very end. McNabb choked and literally vomited in the huddle from nerves which the cameras caught. The Eagles had the best kicker in the NFL that year and kicked one from 63 yds. and anything inside 60 was comfortable. Twelve more yards and Franklin wins the game.

The following year Andy Reid lost his 18 year old son to drug overdose which crushed him. The Philly press were relentless of their critique of a this man who was understandably morose who won many NFC Championships for this city.

I have been praying since then that KC wins the SB which this man deserves and now hope this Mahomes does not possess the KC jinx and chokes on the big stage. We will find out because until you win in the playoff against a good playoff team you have won nothing. All the numbers go up in smoke. Let's hope for Andy's sake.

The Rock

From: HA/KS
13-Dec-18
Even Rivers appreciated his first touchdown pass tonight.

From: Will
13-Dec-18
The kid sure appears to have "it". As a sport fan, it'd be really cool to see the Chiefs go all the way. 2 weeks ago I'd have said no one is beating the saints. But man, a super bowl that was 60 something to 50 something would be interesting!

From: TD
14-Dec-18
That Ol Man Rivers had it tonight. Two scores down with 4 minutes.... 2 TDs and a 2 point conversion.... Unreal. I don't think there is another QB as much fun to watch as Rivers. He truly has a genuine deep love for playing the game. The competition. For some players it's not a job.... it's a drug......

No participation trophies allowed......

From: Grey Ghost
14-Dec-18
Yep, Rivers showed Pretty Boy Mahomes he ain’t the only QB in the league. Great game.

Matt

From: Zbone
14-Dec-18
Luv "Old" Man Rivers... Yeah, that's how you beat MyHomes Boy keep him on the bench...8^)

Great game, be nice to see Phillip win a Super Bowl, he deserves it... Automatic first ballet hall of famer...

14-Dec-18
Rivers is a has been. Our defense lost the game.

From: Will
14-Dec-18
The Chief's Achillies heel for sure. That said, I was on the fence about the Chargers. Always "look" good and fold... But they have some big wins in big spots with comebacks. If you like an AFC team, you should hope you don't have to play them in the play offs. Scary bunch for sure.

From: Brotsky
14-Dec-18
If the Chargers should end up with home field advantage it would be advantageous to whoever plays them. The opposing team always seems to have more fans in the stands in LA! Ha!

14-Dec-18
Mahomes is now 6th on the single season most touchdowns, with 2 games to go.

Just kidding about Rivers and the Chargers. They have a chance to go all the way this season.

14-Dec-18
All the way to Foxboro?

From: South Farm
14-Dec-18
"The Vikings Kirk Cousin is the most under rated QB out there."

LMFAO!!!!!!

From: Grey Ghost
14-Dec-18
Cousins has a 4-24 record against teams above .500. Yet, the Vikes gave him a $84 million contract.

The only thing under-rated about him is the stupidity of his new employers.

Matt

From: TD
14-Dec-18
Actually Charlie...... unless the Pats pick up the pace and both KC AND the Chargers drop some games...... neither one of em is likely going east...... =D

From: HA/KS
14-Dec-18
Until somebody proves it on the playoff field, NE is still the team to beat.

Thursday's game came down to new talent vs experienced talent and experience won - narrowly.

From: Zbone
15-Dec-18
Was a real ballsy call for Chargers to go for 2 points at end of game... I applaud them...

From: Rocky
15-Dec-18
HA, How so? Did you forget that the Pats were beat in last years SB by the Eagles who had a backup QB for the final 3 regular season games and throughout the playoffs including the SB. The Pats, as are every other winning current SB team are always the champions to beat the following year. Has something changed in the NFL that I am not aware of? Now when the final teams who made the playoffs are announced and the previous year SB winner is not there they continue to hold the title until the new champion is crowned....until then....the Eagles are the team to beat, which BTW seems easy to do this year in the regular season. The playoffs however are a different animal altogether which the Eagles would need a miracle to make considering their present position, and once again with Mr. Glass as their QB is out again with injury. This was the FRANCHISE player for the next 10-15 years and he can't get past year one and two without season ending injury. I smell RG111.

The Rock

From: Zim1
18-Dec-18

Zim1's embedded Photo
Zim1's embedded Photo
My dream matchup for the Super Bowl would be Bears/Chiefs.

From: Zbone
21-Dec-18
Have always gave MyHomes Boy the utmost praise, but now have lost respect for him... Finally happen to watch Inside the NFL after recording this week's 15,,, anyhow watching his highlights seen him do the Steph Curry shiver after a pass... Can't stand arrogant Steph Curry and anybody that hotdogs like him...

From: Rocky
22-Dec-18
Zbone,

The NFL has become a recreational entertainment event ever since they expanded the league and watered down the talent. Players that should be doing day jobs are now starters making millions in the NFL choreographing TD theatrical displays in the end zone. People enjoy it and the league is making billions. So.........

I was at the racetrack with my father way back in '76' at Garden State Park in NJ. We were standing at the rail and as the horses thundered by under the finish line my father looked at me and tore his tickets in half and dropped them to the ground. As we walked I noticed the entire surface of the asphalt was littered with torn tickets one inch deep. I pointed this out to my father and told him not to feel bad he had plenty of company. He shot me a look that wiped that smile off my face and said to me " Rocco, did you ever wonder why there is no horse $hit on the track. I said " no Pop, with a smile" because this man was always full of colorful one liners and a brilliant mind who never made it past 3rd grade. "Think about he said..how could it be when all the horses a$$es are in the stands". He laughed and twisted my cheek like only a Italian father could and then came the closer: " Why do you think I stand at the rail? The man was bigger than life to me and remains bigger this day.

That about sums up the NFL. Many believe because they are not in the stands and are watching for free that they don't contribute and are not party to this lunacy. Come a little closer and gimme dat cheek. ;-)

The Rock

The Rock

From: Pig Doc
22-Dec-18
GG, how's Keenum working out for you at $18M/year? He looked pretty good last year with a ton of talent around him. This year he looks like the second rate QB his history proves he is.

And yes, Cousins in overpaid and underachieving. But he's doing better than other QB's in the same salary range: Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Jimmy Garoppolo, Matt Stafford and Derek Carr. At least the Vikings are still in the hunt and Cousins is substantially better than Keenum.

From: BIG BEAR
23-Dec-18
That kid is just incredible. I’ll trade you Matt Stafford,,,,,, And the rest of the Lions for him. I’ll throw in the entire Detroit Tigers baseball team and their stadium......... and all of the Red Wings. Deal ????

23-Dec-18
He is great, but I doubt they go too far in the playoffs. Their defense is terrible.

From: BIG BEAR
23-Dec-18
Frank......... an interesting side note........ Their offensive tackle Eric Fisher was drafted number one overall in the draft out of Central Michigan. Number one overall. A LINEMAN out of the MAC !!!! My step daughter was a cheerleader at Central. I tease her for not hooking up with him !!! Now he’s a pro bowler !! And CMU’s undrafted free agent QB Cooper Rush went on to make the Cowboys as the backup for Dak Prescott.....

23-Dec-18
Cool!

From: BIG BEAR
23-Dec-18
Russell Wilson ain’t bad either... night Frank.

From: BIGHORN
24-Dec-18
It was fun watching The Duke of Denver (Elway) replays. His receivers: Smith, Sharpe, McCaffrey and The Three Amigos and others. What a time to be a Bronco fan!

From: Rocky
24-Dec-18
bb,

...and neither of them will ever do what Nick Foles has accomplished nor any other QB has in the history of this league.

The Rock

From: BIG BEAR
24-Dec-18
Yeah Rock..... Wilson was only the Rookie of the Year in 2012. A 4 time Pro Bowler and Super Bowl Champion In 2014.

He was the NFL passer rating leader in 2015.

He was the NFL leader in Touchdowns in 2017.

Career totals of over 25,000 passing yards,, 195 Touchdown passes and 16 rushing Touchdowns.....

He has the 2nd highest passer rating in NFL history behind Aaron Rogers.....

Yeah,,,, He hasn’t accomplished much.........sheesh.

From: Will
24-Dec-18
BB - Wilson is great. He has "winner" programming (Mahomes appears to have that as well - a trait guys like Brady, Montana etc have) and is a pleasure to watch for sure. Amazing talent!

That was a fun game last night. That Chief D... Given home field, I could see them getting to the Super Bowl... But the best few NFC teams - the Saints, Rams, maybe even the Bears have D's that could slow them enough to make it interesting (Bears) or solidly outscore them (Rams, Saints).

Then again, the past few weeks in this NFL season make me think that "even playing field" thing they are after has happened, as it seems "good" teams lose to "meh" teams often this season.

From: Rocky
24-Dec-18
BB, I never said or implied anything derogatory about any other QB in the league. I simply stated a fact about Nick Foles of the Eagles. He has accomplished what no other QB has in the history of the NFL, no other including Wilson, Brady,Brees, Marino, Namath Montana or anyone else. Period.

The Rock

30-Dec-18
Simply the best, better than all the rest...according to Tina Turner.

Number one this year. Only Peyton Manning has thrown more touchdowns in one season. He is tied with Brady for second.

Also joined the very elite 5000 yard club.

From: HA/KS
12-Jan-19
Human, but good enough today to take down the hottest team in the NFL. It is definitely a team sport, which he seems to understand very well for a successful young guy.

From: BIG BEAR
12-Jan-19
My Detroit Tigers drafted him. He made the right choice going into football.......

From: Zbone
13-Jan-19
The kid is tough...

From: bigswivle
13-Jan-19
He’s awesome

From: HA/KS
15-Jan-19

HA/KS's embedded Photo
HA/KS's embedded Photo

From: Grey Ghost
15-Jan-19
Patrick who? Wake me up when he’s accomplished something.

;-)

Matt

From: Zbone
16-Jan-19
Ouch Grey Ghost...8^)

From: Rocky
16-Jan-19
Matt,

First time in the playoffs, no jitters and composed. That alone is an accomplishment. If he continues to perform on the big stage KC has themselves a winner of a QB. The problem today is free agency which breaks up teams and many times leaves QB'S out to dry. I do not know KC's free agency situation but if most starters today are signed they will be tough for at least a few years. A side note: the genius of Belichik and Brady does not fit this exception for some odd reason. They continue losing players and replacing them year in and year out with unknowns. The offensive scheme of the Pat's changes yearly and defenses can not figure out their route configurations.

The Rock

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