HA/KS's Link
May have to go to Youtube to watch the video.
HA/KS's Link
His receivers make him look pretty good.
i went to a lot of games at Texas Tech and saw him play. My son goes there. I think he was always better than Mayfield but just did not have the total team around him like Mayfield did
He is an incredible QB
Something else. The Vikings Kirk Cousin is the most under rated QB out there. This guy can go.
Mahomes may get there some day, but without the likes of Hill, Kelsey, and Hunt, I don't think he could put a team on his back and lead them to championships like Brady has. The Chiefs defense is still suspect too, IMO, and that will cause their ultimate demise in the playoffs.
Matt
He is that good. Yes, he has talent around him but he is making them look even better. He makes things happen. He is physically talented but also reads defenses and adjusts like a seasoned veteran.
Agree on the defense.
Mahomes makes many plays on athletic talent alone, right now. If he's still doing that at 40 years of age, I'll concede the GOAT title to him. When he inevitably get's injured, or age wears on those athletic abilities, that's when we'll see what he's truly made of.
Matt
He is fun to watch.
He's basically a rookie. GOAT should not even be in the conversation.
He has not played defense for a single snap this year.
He doesn't play for any other NFL team.
He's fun to watch.
I agree,,, and he's about ready to fall of a cliff at anytime, threw 6 incompletions in a row last night (thought that might be the jumping off the edge...8^))) ya can't beat Father Time...
He is breaking all kinds of records. He is better than Brady was in his second year, even better than Peyton;)
The Rock
I some ways the kid has a Stephen Curry feel to him. Just crazy natural gifts.
You and I seem to agree more often each day.
I'm just trying to tone down some of the Mahomes fan-boy rhetoric. Yes, he's had a great 9 game start to his career. Yes, he's set numerous records with the help of guys who routinely take his 5 yard tosses to the house. Yes, he shows great promise. But, would he be putting up those numbers in Cleveland, Oakland, Buffalo, etc.....?
Besides RG Triple Tooth Picks, Michael Vick and Mark Sanchez come to mind as other examples of QBs who didn't live up to their first few year's of billings.
I had the pleasure to watch Elway for his entire career. He took a miserable Bronco team to 9-7 his rookie year. They were 13-3 his second year, again with below average talent around him. Early in his career, he made plays on pure physical talent, much like Mahomes. As he aged, and the NFL took it's toll on his body, what he lost in physical talent, he made up for with football acumen.
The difference between Elway and Mahomes is Elway was a physically imposing man. 6'4" tall, north of 230 pounds, with a rocket arm and good legs. Mahomes has the arm and legs part, but how long will his below average physical size hold up? Brees has certainly bucked the QB stereotypes. Perhaps Mahomes will too. Only time will tell.
Matt
Not to mention, the QBs many prematurely compared Mahomes to played in a era when defensive players could hit QBs so hard their dead grandmothers felt it. Mahomes plays in an era in which defensive players get penalized for farting on a QB.
Combine that with rule changes that benefit offensive receivers, and is it any real surprise Mahomes is breaking records? That's a given in my book.
Matt
The Rock
He'll probably win the SB this year, and I will eat crow. Until then, I'll refrain from accolades until he's actually accomplished something.
Matt
By accounts in the news, he is a leader. I think players are giving more because of that.
Their only loss, to the Pats, they were way behind at the half. Supposedly Andy Reid went to talk to him and he responded not to worry, he had it.
Brady didn't win that game, the Chief's defense lost it. Totally different outcome at Arrowhead.
Many of the same players Alex Smith had. He didn't get this kind of yardage. Some of those yards after the catch are being earned by the receivers, some of them are from the QB being able to throw where the defense doesn't expect.
Most teams would take him right now, including over Brady I bet.
Brady, Manning, Brees are all extremely cerebral - coaches on the field. They break down schemes in a nano second. Did you see last night where Brady faked the entire secondary out with a look and direction of his head - then hit Gordon for a TD... sure looks easy from where I sit.
Do you seriously think this kid could carry a team like Brady or Rogers with the lack of talent of their peers? If Rogers gets hurt the packers will only win 1-2 more games - period.
He is a gifted athlete with loads of talent, I love watching him. He makes it look easy and almost looks unstoppable. I wish him the best and hope he has a long bright future.
Who?
I said he is fun to watch.
What is undeniable is Mahomes is putting up incredible numbers, making the highlight reels with every game and with any hint of defense would be undefeated. He CAN run.... but he's got 29 passing TDs.... 29. (to 7 INT) And 2 rushing. Halfway into the season and has near 3000 yards passing. 137 yard total running. A bit over 15 yards per game. That's not a "running" QB. 116 passer rating. Pretty cool.
WRT YAC...... yes some great receivers. But that stat requires he hits them where they can make a move or continue to run after the catch. That's big. Have to sit down or adjust for the ball not caught in stride is yuge in YAC.......
Ready for the HOF? Nope, not yet by a long ways. But very very few HOF QBs were duds early in their careers, (could say Curt Warner was an exception) most gave a good window to the future as to what was coming. So far..... so good....
The Rock
The Rock
Guy is a cheater, plain and simple. Only cheater I know the CF puts on a pedestal. (Besides Trump. That's for Paul because you know it's coming,)
;)
Hopefully he has a great career. I mean the "last" "big" generation of QB's are down to what, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees? I guess Roethlesburger as well. All those guy's are in the twilight of their careers. It is awesome to see some young guys come up and play as Mahomes has.
That Cheifs Pat's game was my favorite this year - yes, "my" team won... But it was the way the Chiefs played and Mahomes in particular that was awesome.
That said, I have the utmost respect for Brady and Belichick as a football fan. They are both the GOAT and it's not even close.
Matt
Woodguy, I was only partially jesting.
All of the records the kid is breaking are names that everyone recognizes. Hard for me to believe that when someone else breaks his, that few will remember him or think it was a fluke.
Realize, all of the changes Matt pointed to every other QB faces. There is a reason he is better.
Twenty years ago we did not have 275lb lineman running a tad over 4 seconds either, or nearly as tall. The entire game has evolved. Yes, he is that good.
Imagine if Unitas, Elway, Marino, Montana, Manning, Rogers, Brees, Brady, etc...all played under the same rules Mahomes does for their entire careers. Do you still think Mahomes would be setting records?
Matt
They did, and in some cases they played against athletes that were even bigger, stronger and faster than today. Remember steroids? Some of those guys looked like fictional cartoon characters.
Look, I understand your excitement. I would be excited too if Mahomes was in orange and blue. But don't start counting chickens just yet, unless you want to be disappointed. We've seen one-hit wonders before in the NFL, many times.
Matt
Look at the Combines then and now.
I am not counting chickens. I think he will be gone in two years.
The Rock
BTW, I'm not a Brady fan either, but if I had to draft a QB just out of college in their day, my first choice would have been Elway, with Rogers a close second behind... I think Rodgers is the most accurate passer I've ever seen though... The long term jury is still out on Mahomes, but I luv what I see so far... He sure is fun to watch...
Neither of those teams have the defense to win a SB, IMO.
Matt
Still human, but super human.
As said, the kid is sensational and I luv the kid, but he's has a lot to learn...
That says a lot about character. He seems intelligent and wise beyond his years.
If his body lasts, he will be one of the greats. It's a tough game and many promising careers end early due to injuries.
If the super bowl was tomorrow, I'm with Brotsky - the saints would beat anyone in the NFL, solidly. Who know's how things look in the play offs.
It does make me wonder about the play offs. Watching last night, I felt like the NFC is likely Saint's / Rams with the Saint's moving on... But the AFC. Feels like a crap shoot. By record I'd say KC, but I watched a very flawed pat's team slow them a little and go up and down the field on them... so I'm not convinced. I dont trust Pitt to not do something stupid and lose a game. Tennessee? Houston? Meh. NE? Meh. I just dont see an AFC team that feels like a great team this year... KC may be the closest, but I honestly think the Saints would score 60+ on them on a neutral field.
Those strip sacks. . . . man that's tough. I can't fault him for that. 2 blind side where he has the ball in his hand to throw. I just can't fault him for that
2 of the 3 interceptions I don't really mind. The two at the end. He was trying to make something happen.
You all gotta realize. . . . The Chiefs fans have been suffering through years of crap. Our last quarterback was Alex Smith, a fundamental technician who never took a risk. We never won a big game, because he'd never take a risk. He'd never throw the ball up. He'd take the sack.
I'm a dreamer, I'd much rather him throw something up and let the receiver's have a chance than to just take a sack.
Chiefs fans are having fun. For the first time in a LONG time
Bake's Link
Lastly. These "young" great QB''s when they play a game of meaning (playoffs/must win games) will define how they perform under pressure because that is when and only when it counts and when the moniker "great" begins to be bandied around. Until you win SOMETHING you have won NOTHING.
The Rock
Dude, you ain't been a Browns fan...8^)
Laugh all you want but throw out the Chargers and the 2nd Steelers game and this team is playing some good competitive football. People around the league know this team has improved and I think in 2-3 years they are going to make a mark. Playing them is no longer a breather for other teams.
The Rock
The Rock
The Rock
HA/KS - Although I like My-Homes Boy better, I'm satisfied with Mayfield right now... Hopefully these two will battle it out like Big12 contenders for years to come...8^)
I bet Bellicheck would take that trade at the end of the season recognizing it is his best chance to extend his own tenure as head coach.
The Giants as well. Maybe even the Saints.
BTW..both Tom Brady and Drew Brees can't be traded even if they asked for it.
The Rock
Bill Parcells used to say: "Let's not put him in Canton yet", I think that applies here. He's having one hell of a year, BUT ...
Injuries, his or key teammates, could change things around in a hurry. In the NFL an ACL tear, or a concussion etc. could come along on any play, and lots of promising careers have been cut very short. Hell, sometime the early success goes to a young man's head, and he never progresses as far or as fast as he might have otherwise. I hope that's not the case with Mahomes.
He looks like he's learning to read defenses, but he has to continue to develop in that area as D coordinators and defensive players learn his tendencies and figure out what works against him. The Chiefs will certainly have to spend some money on Free Agents and to keep some of the Talent and coaches around him. They haven't always been so quick to write big checks.
It's WAY too soon to talk about his place history, and it's pretty much impossible to compare players from very different eras (although it's a lot of fun).
If Marino had won a superbowl or 3, he'd be talked about like he was Tom Brady. Peyton Mannig was yesterday's GOAT, now his star seems to have faded some. Aaron Rodgers has people saying: Brett who? Let's not forget that Terry Bradshaw had an amazing career, but he doesn't get much love any more. I used to love to watch Dan Fouts throw the ball, but few put him on any list.
One of my sons was saying to me just the other day: "there are like 25 QBs on the list of top 10 QBs of all time", I think there is a lot of truth to that statement.
As Bum Philips said about Earl Campbell: Tom Brady "is probably not in a class by himself, but it don't take long to call roll". I do however take a LOT of satisfaction that my Giants and the much maligned little brother Manning, beat him/them (twice).
Personally since I grew up friends with Steve Young, (I'll always have a bit of hate for Montana), and I'll always respect the way Steve handled himself, worked so hard at getting better, and overcame so much, and just had so much heart. Once, when I was telling Steve's mother what Fantasy Footbal was, I told her that my fantasy team QBs always got hurt, she made promise, actually promise her, that I would never draft Steve. I never did.
QB's throw the ball. Receivers catch the ball. Coaches teaches them how to do it all, put it all together and places them in a position to succeed. QB's can't do it on individual talent alone. Too many variables to predict record breaking. Btw....Goff, Wence and a host of other young QB's will have something to say about that including Tua who is still in college and looks immortal.
The Rock
I'll ask it again, if Elway, Marino, Montana, etc....would have played their entire careers with these girly rules, do you think Mahomes would still be breaking records?
Matt
People do not realize how gifted these two QB'S were. The Kansas City Royals of MLB drafted both Marino (4th) and Elway (19th) in the MLB draft and offered them both contracts and a boat load of money as high school seniors. Both were drafted as future diamond chip pitchers but they had tagged Marino as a can't miss third baseman with his quick release and velocity when they tried him out. Dan Marino wanted to sign right then because he wanted to play Major League ball but Marino's father said they could not pass up a full paid scholarship to Pitt. if he did not play football.The Royals at the Marino family table said "no problem send us the bill". Dan Marino full filled his fathers wishes to graduate from college. The rest as the Royals would later say is "history". John Elway was intrigued but never wandered from the sport he was destined to play and went on to graduate from Stanford. Those of us who appreciate off the charts talent were better for it and they both served us something never seen before or since. This is of course not to impune one of the greatest QB'S ever also Joe Montana.
The Rock
Tattoo it to your brain.
'nough said.
;)
Way tougher game today. The guys hit much harder. Way more injuries. Keep making excuses.
Tattoo it to your brain."
No thanks. Still having RG111 removed as we speak. "Way tougher game today. The guys hit much harder. Way more injuries. Keep making excuses."
Here is one excuse you can make and explain. Why is it these"injuries" always occur as a result of self inflicted wounds. Rarely is the injury due to a collision or viscous hit. Look up the stats.
btw...talk to Jack Tatum the "Assassin" from Oakland about knocking guys cold when the term "defenseless player" was never dreamed of" or Dick Butkus about roughing the passer. What a fuqn joke...
The Rock
Guys were girly men back then;)
Mahomes? Ask me in 15 years.
Matt
Matt
Okay, since we have Elway highlights (I still almost cry seeing "The Drive" highlights), let's list our top 10 all time best QBs... This will be good, lets see how they rank in people minds... Lemme go get paper and pencil...
Here's mine in order:
1 - John Elway
2 - Arron Rodgers
3 - Dan Marino
4 - Tom Brady
5 - Brett Favre
6 - Joe Montana
7 - Peyton Manning
8 - Kurt Warner
9 - Roger Staubach
10 - Troy Aikman
11 - Phillip Rivers
12 - Ben Roethlisberger
13 - Warren Moon
14 - Steve Young
15 - Bart Starr
16 - Joe Namath
17 - Kenny The Snake Stabler
18 - Johnny Unitas
19 - Terry Bradshaw
20 - Len Dawson
Okay, these guys above I all seen play...
Never seen them play, only highlights so honorable mention for Otto Graham and Sling'n Sammy Baugh...
When I was a kid, my first favorite was Bart Starr, then Roman Gabriel, then it was Bob Grease, before it was Brian Sipe, then I grew up...8^) When young, my dad wouldn't allow me to like Namath because he had long hair and wore white shoes... That's true...8^)
Hated John Elway when he was playing because of The Drive and The Fumble, but always respected him, so much so I listed him as my G.O.A.T....
Rocky's Link
The BOZ.
Bo Jackson is the greatest running back to have ever played, had he remained healthy the records would never be broken and he would own all of them. He was super human - an absolute freak. He had world class speed, world class strength, size and unbelievable athleticism/talent.
I read his book - for a sports bio - an excellent read- btw, he grew up hunting and an AVID bow hunter.
1: Montana
2: Brady
3-20: everybody else
*When Brady retires I may switch the 2 around.
That's right, it's not 'Montana' or 'Brady' or....
Greatest quarterback ever, if he.....
Guys, I have been pushing you all along. It is way too early to predict anything until about 10-15 years from now. He is great though for our city today, and at 23 he seems to have his head on straight. It's easy to cheer for him. Beats the heck out of talking about Colin somebody;)
Wood, I knew it was Boz. My point was some of us remember all of the hype about how great he was supposed to be, never to be thought of the same way after that glorious impact with Bo. Who knew? Bo knew!
What I like most about PM, he is classy enough to have many forget about the Protester and remember why we all liked football before his self aggrandizing stunt.
Still disagree about the game being easier today. Every sport has seen an improvement in athletic ability, football is no exception. The human body is still only capable of withstanding a certain level of G-force. The changed rules are necessary today.
Look at golf and how Tiger elevated the game. Now look how many young people have equalled his driving ability during his peak. Longer or tougher courses are being designed to deal with this.
Football is great. Dump the boycott!
Guys like Dick Butkus, Lyle Alzado, Steve Atwater, Mean Joe Green, Jack Lambert, Ray Lewis, Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum, Lawrence Taylor, "Tombstone" Jackson, Deacon Jones... just to name a few....are probably embarrassed by today's game.
Matt
One of Robin's patients was the backup to Lenny Dawson. Actually has a lot to do with their Super Bowl season. He told her it is way tougher today, no doubt.
I will take a pro's word that actually played.
The son-in-law of one of your cousin's and mine's former neighbor had the incoming freshman bench press record for MU. He was a three year starting defensive lineman. This was the mid 90s. 400 lbs, free bar. Didn't take long for the record to be broken.
Again, look at the Combines.
The truth is, the league has regulated much of the violence out of the sport. For better or worse, the game has turned into soccer with helmets. I still love it, but it's nowhere close to the game it used to be, IMO.
And one backup ex-player's opinion doesn't make it truth. I've heard many ex-NFL starters say the exact opposite.
Matt
Look, I understand Chief country is enamored with Mahomes. And rightfully so, considering it's been 48 years since they won a SB. But, let's not forget Mahomes inherited a playoff caliber team. He may be the spark that finally leads the Chiefs to a championship, or he may be a one-season wonder like so many are. Only time will tell.
Matt
The QB and receiving records will all be re-written in the near future because of the new rules - they have made it easier to throw and catch, period. That's the way they want it though - high scoring and the most expensive merchandise (QB) protected to the greatest extent possible and still call it "tackle football".
Are the guys tougher now than in prior decades - LOL - no way!
Are most current players faster at their position - overall I would say so.
Although I like to watch the high scoring as much as anybody, - if I could choose between letting them go back to hitting each other and the high scoring, I would choose go back to the snot jerking de-cleated hits.
I went to HS '73-'77. Freshman year we won the V state championship for our class. I was not on the team.;) Probably why we won.
A couple of the guys could do 250 on a free bar, they were gods. Today 300 is common in HS.
Think of all the personal trainers, nuitrition etc. Things unheard of in our day. Performance, speed, strength, size have made the game totally different today.
Sure, in the old days there were the freaks who laid a whomping on the unsuspecting average guy, and legends were created. Most are freaks today. That wasn't football back then, it did not involve the athleticism of today. Think of running back speed and hurdling agility common today. Those were street brawls;). I watch UFC to get my fill of that.
Chris was a WR.
I played in HS. I would rather get hit and chased by the average player back then, than the average HS player today.
But, I will say it again, I was pushing buttons. Long time before we can conclude anything about Mahones except he is having a spectacular 2018 season which includes breaking some long standing records. I don't predict the future.
BTW, lots of QBs out there not doing so great with this pansy game today. No talent around them? Alex Smith had basically the same talent and didn't get out of it what Mahomes is. Same coaches. Think Mahomes deserves a lot of the credit?
HA/KS's Link
There is little comparison between size and physical abilities of current players and those from 30+ years ago. That is a separate question from whether or not the game is tougher.
As for the discussion drifting away from a strict discussion of whether or not Mahomes is fun to watch, that is a risk the originator of any thread takes.
It will take a lot of tests before we know. Brady certainly has it.
So what? It doesn't matter if they can't use that strength to inflict pain and intimidation on their opponents because of rule changes. That's the part you just don't seem to get, or don't want to. The simple fact is, today's game is a sissy-fied version of previous decades, regardless of athletic ability. Hit's that used to be considered fair ,hard-nosed, and desirable are now flagged for "unnecessary roughness". Can't land on a QB with your full body weight? What a joke. Lineman used to body slam QBs on their heads. No helmet to helmet? Really? Some of the best hits used to involve helmets flying off the recipients heads.
Sorry, I agree with Rocky, any current QB records should have an asterisk beside them.
Matt
P Mahomes looks awesome... Hope he stay's that way. The NFL needs new blood at that position!
I agree all the way down the line and could not have said it better. What people do NOT seem to realize is the psychological aspect of the new present day "protections" that have been instituted. Going "over the middle" is not the same today as it once was psychologically. Receivers know the rule changes and allow for them to go for the high and reach out ball, but, watch closely sometimes and they still pull up with alligators arms. Years ago before the "untouchable" rules came in "GOTM" served a whole new meaning for receivers reserved only for the fearless. Now everybody is fearless. Today's athletes are bigger stronger and faster which is expected with recent advances but the mental conditioning has without a doubt waned in regards to reckless destructive play....and that was the allure of football, the Gladiator mindset. Now they hide cell phones in the goal posts and rehearse Broadway acts in the end zone when they score. WWF...World Wrestling Football and Vince McMann should be getting royalties.
The Rock
The Rock
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Matt
You and Rock, based on your logic, want us to go back to the days when men were really tough-no pads and a leather covering instead of a helmet. Ridiculous.
We keep changing the rules because they are always getting faster, stronger etc.
I will take the laws of physics over a couple senior coach potatoes;). You go tell one of them they're a pansy.
Speaking for myself and my age I think they are pansy asses compared to the players of the 70's -90's and I am old enough and smart enough to tell them that to their face because I would come prepared and possess the resources to have more than the equalizer standing next to me when I say it. You remain in fear in them.
You don't know what or who you are talking about.
The Rock
You're being surprisingly dense on this subject. No one said NFL players are "pansies". No one has disputed the players are bigger and faster today (excluding the steroid era). You are the one who keeps clinging to those arguments.
What you fail to understand is recent rule changes have made the game much less violent than a few decades ago. They have also made the league more offense/passing friendly, since most casual fans like high scoring games. Those two facts will completely rewrite the passing record books, regardless of physical abilities. I can only conclude you aren't a very serious fan, if you don't know understand this.
At one time Dan Marino held the all-time passing yardage record. He passed Fran Tarkenton, who held the record for almost 2 decades. Since then, 4 QBs have surpassed Marino's record. Why do think that is? If your answer is rule changes, you'd be correct. If your answer is something else, you're just being a dope. ;-)
Matt
Records are being broken by QB's and receivers today and then they have the audacity and disrespect to compare them to GREAT players who would have thrown for 12,000 yds in a season and receivers would have caught 350 balls if they had played today with the new rule changes. Change the rules you change the game. You change the game you change the stats. Let these men play no rules football and come back and report the scores and stats. The injury count would be higher than the game score and that's the point. The game must be played somewhere in-between but they have moved the game to the extreme end of hurting your friggin' pinky. Can't have injuries you know in a game designed, physically prepared and protected for reckless enjoyment.
Seth Joiner a HOF linebacker who played for the Eagles and Buddy Ryan covers the eagles commentary after each game and summarizes. Granted Joiner was built in the Butkis mode but bigger and faster. Every week he wrly smiles when they discuss all the receptions and quick slant routes that teams run these days. He told a story about the mindset of football then not too long ago 1996. Somebody comes over the middle "my" territory he is getting punished with or without the ball. Only takes one penalty when a receiver comes over the middle like he is running in a field of daisies and get blown the F..UP.. When he comes over next time he comes into that turf dancing on eggshells, his head is on a swivel looking not for the ball, but looking for me. Some guys were tough and just kept coming and one TE spit even me when when I blew him up. I knew I was in for a long night while I was trying to shorten his. I won some and lost some but that's the game."
Right there. That which makes you stand and applaud when players play balls out for your entertainment and which you came to see. Seth Joiner was a players player respected and feared across the league, and could not have said it better "that's the game".
The Rock
Many reasons for improved records that have little, if anything, to do with rule changes:
16 game season.
Higher percentage of pass plays today versus running.
Shotgun versus under center.
Much quicker release times because of the above and better athleticism.
Better training, coaching and techniques.
Huge, agile, fast, tough to bring down running backs that force defenses to play both the run and pass.
Natural progression of improvement we see in EVERY sport.
I could go on.
The sport, like life, continues to evolve. Think how defenses are coached to raise their arms on every pass play. That just happened in our adult lives Matt.
Matt, honestly, you are starting to sound like one of the old grumpy guys you complain about. We will see if the rule changes effect career longevity. That's still questionable given the increased kinectic energy being absorbed by players when tackled.
Rocky, I see the pendulum swung back to the tough guy routine. At 59 and comfortable with what I have done, it is not fear but respect I have for the dedication these guys have.
In '86 did not the SB QB from the Bears show up with a case of beer for training camp? Doubt that happens today. Most spend the entire off season, oh wait, there ain't an off season.
Your serve. Make it better than that last pathetic one.
;)
Mike Tyson got beat when the first boxer decided to box him instead of trading shots on who could hit harder. Today's players have intelligence besides physical prowess.
Ali, "float like a butterfly..." Rope a dope...beat some really tough, hard punchers and was crowned The Greatest.
My life changed permanently at 19 when I went airborne to catch my third consecutive ball over the middle. Linebacker laid me out. I still hung on, shattered L4-5, never played again. Could not walk off the field. What a waste! Toughest thing I ever did was finish USMC OCS. I just got back from junior increment, had two years to try and be prepared for senior increment. If they knew, they would have never let me go back.
I graduated, but life was never the same. Surgery 4 years ago. The LB was frustrated, I ran simple, yet crisp J hook patterns he could not keep with me. Ball was high, he took advantage of the situation. That was the mentality, try and hurt someone if you are not as good an athlete. I am glad they are taking that aspect out of the sport, go MMA if you want to prove how tough you are.
BTW, I had a good reason to pass on going back to OCS, but I refused to spend the rest of my life wondering if I was tough enough or not. Only reason I went back. Instead, I have spent 40 years wondering about that one day.
Grey Ghost's Link
And those were just the beginning of the rule changes that favor the offense and QBs.
Matt
FOX FOOTBALL, two minutes ago, I almost quote;
"Every few years we have offenses that go nuts, and then defenses catch up."
I think they know more Matt.
Bunch of cheap shots, had nothing to do with football.
Look, they are just better today. You don't get it, that's OK. We are within 3 minutes of breaking two hours for a marathon. It will happen.
Shoes are better, clothing is better. They play a part. Still mostly the person.
Mahomes stays healthy, it will be a new standard. You can make excuses all you want if it makes you feel better. I will sit back and continue to be amazed.
How the hell are defenses going to catch up if they are not permitted to defend, put 13 guys on the field. C'mon frank. Defenses catch up to individual players not the game itself when it is forever changing. The score could be 3-3. What catching up was done?
The Rock
Grey Ghost's Link
http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats/
The most overrated athlete of all time.
I think that some linemen today are faster than most backs were 50 years ago.
It is true that rules have been changed to protect players (mostly offense, but the chop block rule was changed to protect pass rushers). However, DB's are allowed to get away with much more contact than in the past without drawing a PI flag.
You never boxed. He won, the other guys beat him hard, ran out of gas. He fought smart. I didn't like him then, appreciate he beat Frazier and many others I said would win. He made new rules, and that's what bothered us, just like with the best football players today.
Matt, Marino ever throw with his opposite hand? In his first 12 games?
Rock, how about the receivers just poke the DB in the eyes back then, no rules, at all.
Today's players are better, but keep digging. And googling, LOL!
ESPN’s Tim Hasselbeck walks us through the tweaks that help QBs put up staggering career numbers.
Sports By Sean Cunningham 12 months ago Let’s start with a statement few football fans would debate: New England Patriot Tom Brady and New Orleans Saint Drew Brees are really good at playing quarterback. (They’ve combined for five Super Bowl MVPs and 22 Pro Bowls—indeed, Brady can go to parties and do… this.)
You may not appreciate, however, just how historically superb they are, both ranking among the top four QBs all-time in career completions, passing yards, and touchdown passes.
The other two members of the top four are Peyton Manning (retired in 2015) and Brett Favre (retired in 2010).
The top 10 in those categories features three additional active QBs: New York Giant Eli Manning, Pittsburgh Steeler Ben Roethlisberger, and Los Angeles Charger Philip Rivers.
Steadily approaching the top 10 are Green Bay’s Aaron Rodgers (already #9 in touchdown passes) and Arizona’s Carson Palmer…
Wait, Carson Palmer? The Carson Palmer best known for threatening to retire if the Bengals didn’t trade him, which resulted in him being sent to the Raiders, where he went 8-16 as a starter?
Yep, that Carson Palmer. Seems he’s #11 in completions, #13 in passing yards, and #12 in touchdown passes. Even if Palmer never plays another down after his recent injury, he’s still ahead of four-time Super Bowl champ and two-time NFL MVP Joe Montana in all three categories.
No disrespect to Palmer or anyone else on the list, but the NFL was founded in 1920. How is it possible that a majority of the game’s most prolific quarterbacks are either playing now or were in their prime in the last decade? (Hell, three of them came from the same 2004 draft class: Eli and Rivers were traded for each other!)
“By and large, the NFL has really tried to enhance scoring and benefited the offense,” said ESPN NFL analyst Tim Hasselbeck, who’s here to help explain just how the league does this. (Tim is inclined to sympathize with offense: he not only played quarterback in the NFL, but his brother Matt did too.)
Some recent rule changes make it easier for quarterbacks to complete passes. Others just make it possible for them to stay physically intact long after earlier generations had been battered into retirement. Here’s a quick timeline of why today’s defensive coordinators don’t get much sleep.
1993: It is not intentional grounding when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player has a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).
“Take something like the ability to throw the football away. You’re outside the tackle box and all you need to do is get the ball to the line of scrimmage. Obviously that creates a protection for the quarterback.” (Beyond the safety standpoint, this also spares QBs a lot of interceptions, since they can lob the ball where no defender could possibly make a play.)
1995: When tackling a passer during or just after throwing a pass, a defensive player is prohibited from unnecessarily and violently throwing him down and landing on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight.
“Quarterbacks, when they’re in the pocket… they’ve never been taught to look around at who’s coming to hit them. They’ve been taught to look downfield: you’re looking at the coverage and you’re trying to find who’s open. So when you get hit, you usually don’t know where it’s coming from. I think the league has realized that’s a very defenseless position.”
(As a reminder of how thoroughly linebackers used to be able to manhandle quarterbacks, here’s a short clip of Hall of Fame linebacker Dick Butkus.)
In particular, this rule limiting the force tacklers can use to take down a QB seeks to reduce head injuries: “Oftentimes they drive you into the ground and your head kind of does a double tap on the ground. That’s a reason why quarterbacks for the longest time have been the most concussed position on the field.”
2002: It is illegal to hit a quarterback helmet-to-helmet any time after a change of possession.
This eliminated a particularly ruthless bit of defensive strategy: “It used to be that the quarterback throws an interception, the defenders they were taught, ‘Hey, go find number 14 and hit him as hard as you can. Free shot on the quarterback. Do it as violently as you can.’ That’s changed.”
Hasselbeck also noted that, in the event of a turnover, coaches today will often urge the QB to focus on self-preservation as opposed to try to turn into Lawrence Taylor: “If Tom Brady throws an interception, the idea of taking on a defensive lineman who’s trying to put a block on him on the return, I think most reasonable minds would say that’s probably not a battle we want him fighting.”
2006: Low hits on the quarterback are prohibited when a rushing defender has an opportunity to avoid such contact.
“Preventing guys from being around your feet is a big one for longevity.”
2007: A block below the waist against an eligible receiver while the quarterback is in the pocket is a 15-yard penalty instead of a 5-yard penalty (an illegal cut block).
How many times have you seen a quarterback looking for an open receiver… but they’re all covered… and he keeps looking… and suddenly he’s obliterated for a sack. The NFL strives to reduce these moments. Hasselbeck noted the NFL has put limits on defenders “in terms of how you can make contact with receivers as they’re trying to get open… With the size and athleticism of receivers and your inability to defend them, that’s been a big part of quarterbacks being able to get out of their hand quickly.”
2009: It is an illegal hit on a defenseless receiver if the initial force of the contact by the defender’s helmet, forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of the receiver. Penalty: 15 yards.
“I do believe that as the NFL has looked at making the game safer, one of the things that they’ve tried to do is acknowledge that there are plays where people in general, whether quarterbacks or receivers, are deemed defenseless.”
2009: Clarified rule regarding low hits on passers: A defender cannot initiate a roll or lunge and forcibly hit the passer in the knee area or below, even if he is being contacted by another player.
This is known as the “Brady rule,” because it was implemented after Brady was knocked out for the entire 2008 season by the play below:
Quite simply, rules like this have been a mitzvah for the longevity of QBs across the league: “The effort to keep people off of guys’ knees and the head and neck area is probably the number one thing that has helped guys be healthy each and every week.”
Indeed, Hasselbeck said that rule changes have made it so that defensive legends from earlier decades would have to take an entirely new approach to the game: “[Hall of Fame cornerback and safety] Ronnie Lott was one of the most feared guys because of the way he hit people. He probably wouldn’t be allowed to hit people… not probably, he wouldn’t be allowed to hit people the way he did back when he played. Would he be a guy who was suspended every other week?” (Based on the clips of “The Hitman” in the second half of this video, the answer is, “Oh, most definitely.”)
Even less violent defenders from previous NFL eras would have been impacted: “There are guys who played corner by being physical all the way down the field. They got up and they mauled guys. You’re not allowed to do that any more either.”
If you’re comparing quarterbacks from earlier eras to today’s, it’s worth remembering that far too many older stars had their careers shortened by plays the NFL would severely penalize today: “Steve Young’s career ended because of a brutal hit from Aeneas Williams that knocks him out.” (Note: This play is horrifying.)
Today? “You can’t hit guys like that any more. That extends careers.”
There is also a focus today on quarterbacks keeping themselves on the field: “Sliding feet-first is way more acceptable now than it ever was—in many cases it’s taught.” Indeed, often a quarterback will just “give himself up” for a sack: “That used to be a thing that people would have never thought of doing at the position.”
Taken all together, you have a league where quarterbacks (and their receivers) are safer and there is every incentive to throw the ball: “Quarterbacks have definitely benefited from an interceptions standpoint, a volume of attempts standpoint.”
It becomes reasonable to ask: When we fixate on passing stats, are we selling short the star quarterbacks of yesterday?
Hasselbeck said we may be unfairly dismissive of players from different eras (focusing, for instance, on how Joe Namath threw more career interceptions than touchdowns): “Roger Staubach, I don’t think anybody disputes how incredible he was for the Dallas Cowboys. Then Troy Aikman’s number are better than his and Tony Romo’s numbers are better than his. So you say, ‘Well, Is that a fair indicator?’ Business was being done much differently back then.”
Here’s a crude but effective way to adjust for the fact that modern quarterbacks have both longer careers and typically throw the ball more times each game than their predecessors. Look at the career leaders in yards per pass attempt. There are modern players—those tied for fifth most all-time include Romo, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, and Russell Wilson—but #1 is Otto Graham (who retired in 1955), #2 is Sid Luckman (1950), and #3 is Norm Van Brocklin (1960). All three are championship-winning Hall of Famers. Indeed, “The Dutchman” Van Brocklin passed for a still-record 554 yards in a single game.
Yet none of them crack the top 50 in career pass completions, touchdowns, or yards.
So does this mean today’s quarterbacks, even those with video game numbers, are overrated and would struggle in earlier eras?
Hasselbeck fully acknowledges the way the game aims to accommodate QBs today but still thinks that, regardless of rules, the cream will always rise to the top: “There’s certain guys you watched and thought, ‘He’s got the arm, he’s got the physical skill set, the mindset.’ They’re passing the eye test. I think that those guys would be successful in any era. They were successful in their era because they were doing the things they needed to do. Peyton, Jim Kelly, Brett Favre, these guys are just physically really talented and loved the competition. I think they would have been able to adjust.”
Below, behold one of those guys who seem like they could have gotten it done at any time: two-time Super Bowl champ, 1971 Player of the Year, and Hall of Famer for the Cowboys, “Captain Comeback” Roger Staubach.
But, I'm sure Frank knows more than a actual NFL QB.
Matt
We all have OPINIONS, and that is all they are.
I would rather take an all out hit from the average player in my time than the average player today.
Players do last longer, maybe some rule changes impact that, but so does year around conditioning and unbelievable medical advancements. Think knee surgery today versus just 20 years ago.
Matt, honestly, leaving all of these other changes out of the discussion makes your argument less credible to me.
The game has changed, and 40 years from now Mahomes will be a footnote at best. It will continue to improve. Every generation stretches greatness. That's the beauty of the human experience. It's not limited to sports, but everything we apply our talents to.
God bless, I will quit debating. I agree that you are wrong, again;)
Just kidding, putting this down to watch some Sunday pansies. Enjoy your day.
My day continues to improve in stand. Numerous average buck sightings, and 2 does just strolled under me. Hoping big daddy will be along shortly.
Matt
We came back from the farm very early this morning. A blizzard is beginning here.
My day continues to improve in stand. Numerous average buck sightings, and 2 does just strolled under me. Hoping big daddy will be along shortly.
Matt
This is after a no-call late hit, full weight of the defender landed on him.
Mahomes has one thing against him and its not his fault. The KC playoff jinx and Andy Reid folding under pressure.
The Rock
Unfortunately, yeah... Hated the guy, but through the years kinda gained respect for him... I think respect started when I seen him score a touchdown running through the endzone and stopped to give a kid in a wheelchair the football... At the time kinda caught me off guard and began to think well maybe the guy ain't and so bad and started to change my hatred... Years later I actually went to work in Denver (long story), but anyhow those people out there treat him like a god... BUT, talked one person out there that knew him and said he's a jerk... Take it for what its worth, but at least the Browns don't have to play him anymore...8^)
Chief's defense also stepped up.
Their only 2 losses, were close, and away games, otherwise they would be undefeated.
Two more passing TDs and over 300 yards again.
And he stands for the Anthem. A guy we can all support!
Best part about the kid, is that he seems to really play well when they are behind - there appears to be no "quit" in him... No, that's not it. He's got no apparent "front runner" in him. That's what makes Brady Brady - if he's winning by 30, he wants to win by 40. If he's losing by 20, he thinks he's going to lead a comeback and win by 20.
Mahomes seems the same way. Impressive to watch.
A no look pass. A 40+ yard 4th down conversion.
Like others have said above, it's much too soon to talk about his future, but for right now, Chiefs fans are having a lot of fun.
I have my doubts with their defense that they could pull off a Super Bowl win, or even go deep into the playoffs. But they have a great base to build on, and I'm already excited for next year
The following year Andy Reid lost his 18 year old son to drug overdose which crushed him. The Philly press were relentless of their critique of a this man who was understandably morose who won many NFC Championships for this city.
I have been praying since then that KC wins the SB which this man deserves and now hope this Mahomes does not possess the KC jinx and chokes on the big stage. We will find out because until you win in the playoff against a good playoff team you have won nothing. All the numbers go up in smoke. Let's hope for Andy's sake.
The Rock
No participation trophies allowed......
Matt
Great game, be nice to see Phillip win a Super Bowl, he deserves it... Automatic first ballet hall of famer...
Just kidding about Rivers and the Chargers. They have a chance to go all the way this season.
LMFAO!!!!!!
The only thing under-rated about him is the stupidity of his new employers.
Matt
Thursday's game came down to new talent vs experienced talent and experience won - narrowly.
The Rock
The NFL has become a recreational entertainment event ever since they expanded the league and watered down the talent. Players that should be doing day jobs are now starters making millions in the NFL choreographing TD theatrical displays in the end zone. People enjoy it and the league is making billions. So.........
I was at the racetrack with my father way back in '76' at Garden State Park in NJ. We were standing at the rail and as the horses thundered by under the finish line my father looked at me and tore his tickets in half and dropped them to the ground. As we walked I noticed the entire surface of the asphalt was littered with torn tickets one inch deep. I pointed this out to my father and told him not to feel bad he had plenty of company. He shot me a look that wiped that smile off my face and said to me " Rocco, did you ever wonder why there is no horse $hit on the track. I said " no Pop, with a smile" because this man was always full of colorful one liners and a brilliant mind who never made it past 3rd grade. "Think about he said..how could it be when all the horses a$$es are in the stands". He laughed and twisted my cheek like only a Italian father could and then came the closer: " Why do you think I stand at the rail? The man was bigger than life to me and remains bigger this day.
That about sums up the NFL. Many believe because they are not in the stands and are watching for free that they don't contribute and are not party to this lunacy. Come a little closer and gimme dat cheek. ;-)
The Rock
The Rock
...and neither of them will ever do what Nick Foles has accomplished nor any other QB has in the history of this league.
The Rock
He was the NFL passer rating leader in 2015.
He was the NFL leader in Touchdowns in 2017.
Career totals of over 25,000 passing yards,, 195 Touchdown passes and 16 rushing Touchdowns.....
He has the 2nd highest passer rating in NFL history behind Aaron Rogers.....
Yeah,,,, He hasn’t accomplished much.........sheesh.
That was a fun game last night. That Chief D... Given home field, I could see them getting to the Super Bowl... But the best few NFC teams - the Saints, Rams, maybe even the Bears have D's that could slow them enough to make it interesting (Bears) or solidly outscore them (Rams, Saints).
Then again, the past few weeks in this NFL season make me think that "even playing field" thing they are after has happened, as it seems "good" teams lose to "meh" teams often this season.
The Rock
Number one this year. Only Peyton Manning has thrown more touchdowns in one season. He is tied with Brady for second.
Also joined the very elite 5000 yard club.
;-)
Matt
First time in the playoffs, no jitters and composed. That alone is an accomplishment. If he continues to perform on the big stage KC has themselves a winner of a QB. The problem today is free agency which breaks up teams and many times leaves QB'S out to dry. I do not know KC's free agency situation but if most starters today are signed they will be tough for at least a few years. A side note: the genius of Belichik and Brady does not fit this exception for some odd reason. They continue losing players and replacing them year in and year out with unknowns. The offensive scheme of the Pat's changes yearly and defenses can not figure out their route configurations.
The Rock
