I sold firearms for almost 20 years, many of them AR typesm.... never once in that time did I have anyone ask for a "bump stock" ... never ... Ive sold various stock mods, fore end's, Stocks, cheek pieces, heat shields, etc... never a "bump stock" ...
Will there be reparation payments for lost property? Are the feds ready for the logistical nightmare of huge piles of bump stocks left on federal court house steps? Will environmental wackos be protesting the impact of destroying all these stocks? Is the Don going use them to build “THE WALL”
"Ive always been surprised that they were legal to begin with."
Me too. Fully automatic weapons have been banned from general ownership for many decades. Bump stocks don't make a weapon fully automatic in the same way, but the end result is the same. Extremely rapid fire. No hunting purpose at all. Only legit uses are for fun at the range, or for defense. Given no other automatic weapons make the cut, bump stocks have skirted the edge of legality....a gray area if you will.
This is ridiculous and just for show. It will hurt Trump as much as help. Bump stocks do not give you the same results as an automatic weapon in any way. They are a great way to waste of ammo, that is about it.
Here is the real truth about bump stocks. I’ve shot them. I’ve known about them for a while. So, I know what I’m talking about.
Bump stocks are not effectively automatic weapons in anyway, shape, or form. They don’t fire as fast, nearly as accurate, and are not reliable in any sense. The videos you see of them are short bits of a successful run that took many times to complete in most instances.
Second point, they are not accurate. In anyway are you going to walk into a big room and strategically do anything but shoot the upper walks and ceilings if your intent was to kill people. The only thing that made the Vegas shooter successful was he was randomly firing into a huge mass of people. A decent shot with a bolt action rifle would have tripled the body count. Praise the Lord for his is ignorance of that reality.
Third, this isn’t a victory. It’s a political move. A sell out. Let all the dumb heads buy the things and actually use them if harm is their intent. It would keep body counts lower. But, the disappointing thing is the lack of knowledge and common sense used to determine this outcome. If you don’t know what you are talking about, you should probably not talk a whole lot about it.
I’m extremely disappointed this happened. I have zero use for the implements too. I don’t own one because all they do is waste shells. But, this is the first step in outlawing “assault@ weapons.
So tell us yfp. How are you going to get the bump stocks from the thugs that have them that are going to use them on people??? Also, how is this bump stock ban going to make people safer in the USA???? ME LISTENING!!!!! 8^)
I don't look at it as 'making bumps stocks illegal'. All gun guys knew it was a gimmick to exploit a loop hole and get around the full auto laws. So after a few hundred people get shot up in Vegas, it's not surprising that they close the loophole.
Additionally, as the 2nd amendment was twice ruled by SCOTUS, the bump stock wouldn't fit within "ordinary military equipment ... in common use at the time". So I don't see this dopey gimmick as having any special constitutional protection.
The ATF makes supplemental rulings all the time. You guys don't remember the USAS-12 and Streetsweeper shotguns getting thrown into NFA category (1994)? That was some real bullsh1t there! Or banning certain 37mm 'flare gun' shells (1995)? Or even the reclassification of the original MAC-10's as machine-guns because the design allowed for relatively easy conversion?
Heck - this is the same as when they banned the AR drop in auto sear (1981) and it became a felony to possess one, even if not installed. Was bowsite around back then for the faux outrage? C'mon now... who are we kidding?
Curious as how the rules, laws or whatever will be written. Floriduh's law is written such that any device to increase the rate of fire could be banned. Slide stops, upgraded triggers, stiffer recoil springs, etc, all could be construed as a device to increase rate of fire. Be careful of what you don't care about.
All Trump did was showing the American people that he had the balls to prove to the democrats that their so called,"GUN CONTROL", isn't going to make them safer, and will not stop mass shootings in any way. Maybe a couple of guys, on here, will see that you don't have to ask the POTUS to see this isn't going to do a thing to help keep people safer. Two peas in a pod.
"Still don’t care. Not worried about the shotguns and bolt action rifle in my gun cabinet....."
Till your shotgun is labeled a room clearing weapon and your bolt action deer rifle is referred to as "sniper style" weapon.
I see zero need for a bump stock. Zero. I have zero need for an AR as well. (I may have one or more) But the 2A doesn't require you to define need. Just as the 1A doesn't require you to define your "need" to practice Catholicism, Episcopalian, Baptist, or atheism. Nor does it require you to define your "need" for free speech.
As I said, be careful of what you don't care about. The devil WILL be in the details with this ruling, law, EO, whatever. Hell,even 30 round mags could be considered. Less magazine swaps, higher ROF. All it takes, is a ruling by a judge. No legislation required.
"How many people have been killed with bump stocks since bump stocks came into existence?"
They've killed more people in the last three years than Muslim terrorists, but I digress. WVM is right about bump stocks - they are more a gimmick than any practical application. I own quite a few black rifles, and train fairly regularly and never once have I had any desire to acquire a bump stock.
My biggest concern is what Bowbender highlights. Automatic weapons are clearly defined in the National Firearm Act as weapons that fire more than one projectile with a single trigger pull. This is clearly not what bump stocks do. If the legal language is broad ("anything that increases the rate of fire"), it exposes a whole host of accessories that do indeed have practical applications.
Jason....... I agree...... but you can thank the gun nuts that just can’t be happy with owning an AR for this mess,,,,,,, They had to go out and come up with a gimmick that alters their guns to shoot at a rate similar to a fully automatic rifle......
I have no desire to ever own a bump stock. Bump firing semi-auto is easily achievable without one but mostly just a way to make noise.
The point is that it sets a precedent that limiting gun accessories is going to change crazy/evil people from harming others. That isn't the case so even though its an unimportant specific freedom, its still freedom lost for no benefit. Every time we waste energy taking freedom and ignoring the real issue its a bad thing.
As for "ordinary military equipment ... in common use at the time", obviously full auto and burst auto are both common military equipment.
You can count on mankind to be inventive and on others to want things, any things, regardless of your opinion of them. However, we must all keep an eye on the actual LAW, which says "...shall not be infringed."
The wording is a problem as it opens too many doors.
I've been handling firearms since I was 12, and up until the LV shootings I'd never even heard of a bump stock. IMO they're not a very effective, responsible or safe way of using a firearm. Overall I really don't care that they're no longer legal (it's a waste of ammo and not an effective way to shoot a firearm), but as has been pointed out, you don't even NEED one to operate a semi-auto in the exact same fashion. All this is, is a bone to throw at the gun grabbers, and a meaningless one to boot. The problem with it is that it will NOT appease them in any way whatsoever......just one more inch in the camel's nose under the tent. ANYONE who knows firearms understands this.
Making bumpstocks illegal isn't infringing on your right to bear arms. You can still own your precious AR's and just about any other firearm you want. This is how politics work, if you think Trump ain't getting something in return you'd be sadly mistaken; I assure you he's holding this card for later! On top of that, just how many people are really put out by this anyway, 1000 out of 300 million maybe, who cares?!? Much to do about nothing..
Spray and pray is just entertainment here in the USA or a criminals intimidation device. Even if the full collapse of society happens, the semi auto platforms will be go to weapon and long range precision (500 yards plus) to keep creeps at bay. If you're in the middle of a close range battle, some bad decisions to be there were made.
I value precision in a weapons ability to put it's mark down range on target.
"The problem with it is that it will NOT appease them in any way whatsoever"
That's not the only problem (we all know they'd never be appeased anyway). Again, I'm very curious as to how language of any ban is worded that won't put more common accessories at risk. Even without upgraded components, you can manipulate a weapon in all kinds of ways to deliver a rate of fire that approaches an automatic weapon as others have pointed out. Like I said, I'm very curious to see how this is phrased.
"A sniper like myself, can keep a battalion of the enemy at bay ... I know what I can do if needed ..."
I believe Carlos Hathcock took on a company. The snipers weapon? Model 70 Winchester. Just like our everyday deer rifle. Again, be very careful about what you don't care about. Incrementalism is the game. Let the media redefine your Rem 700 or Win Model 70 as a "sniper rifle" and my guess is your "care" meter will be pegged.
It's too bad that the ban couldn't have been part of a bigger piece of legislation with other eventualities conceded in exchange for something the other side would concede and have it actually go into law through Congress and benefit everybody instead of just a unilateral concession.
MY, Two cents, And worth both pennies. Bump stocks are NOT guns, so they didn't ban a gun. The Bump stock is an add on" Jimmie Rigging" to enable the gun to do something NOT intended by the gun maker. Although it makes little difference to a criminal, I will pass the BAN on as something our side did to avert a tragedy. Our part to be proactive on crime. Libs don't know a bump stock from their ass, but we can hold it up and say we did our part. Beyond that they can all kiss my rosie back side.
Avert a tragedy? Then how about belt loops and thumbs as well as fat bellies? Both of those things were shown on this thread to allow the weapon to do the exact same thing as the bump stock. Realistically, the ban solves NOTHING.
An interesting thing to me is that noise-suppressors and silencers are generally banned or severely restricted, yet they do nothing to increase a firearm's danger or lethality. A hand-stocked slide action 5-shot shotgun is either illegal or restricted TO OWN, yet a 17 shot semi-auto handgun is generally fine. I'm not necessarily agreeing with it, but there's plenty of precedent for banning parts of guns and accessories....with little regard for the hypocrisy present.
I find it amusing that if you own a bump stock you have to turn it in. So I can keep the gun that does the killing but have to turn in a part that goes on to it? In other words we trust you with your gun but not when it can be full auto. Makes no sense.
What is the bump stock definition in the law?? Just like labeling anything that kills people a assault weapon, the devil is in the details. Once this one gets through there will be others. Count on it. So where will be the "shall not be infringed" line be drawn/? Its not about hunting, never was, its about expressing God given rights (reaffirmed by Amendments and most recently the Heller case) to defend yourself using equal or greater force.
But then Katniss took out a whole tyrannical empire with a bow so what do I know...
"Sen. Dianne Feinstein on Tuesday rejected a plan by the Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Bureau to review the sale of bump stocks and other devices that can accelerate the firing power of semi-automatic weapons, arguing the ATF is not authorized to regulate them and instead Congress must act." lol Feinstein smarter than Trump.....
BTW, the shooter in Vegas had a gun with a bump stock but it was laying on the floor and never fired. A couple weapons had never been fired. I have two gun safes with guns in them but a bunch are not in any safe and ready to use in several locations in the house. Hand guns, shotgun and rifles.
If any one believes the Vegas Shooter did this all alone and with a bump stock yet then the media has done their job... media tells 98% lies... we have no idea what has been going on... i think we will be shocked one day to see how truly duped we have been.
In Michigan...... A shotgun with a barrel shorter than 18”..... or shorter overall than 26”...... it is considered a pistol. But it varies from state to state.
If it’s strictly a sawed off shotgun under the legal size.... it’s illegal.......
We don’t come across a whole lot of shotguns in the city...... but I talked to my buddy who is one of our gun experts.... he said it is possible to legally possess a short barrel shotgun if you register it.... I guess there’s a federal tax stamp you have to purchase......
Habitat,your statement is very possible, however things just don't add up... was he going to use all that artillery, yet shoot himself so early into the plan? No, i believe he was selling, the true perps shot him to make it look like a crazy when it was well orchestrated, also following along the lines of your premise of large crowd, loud music slot of weed and alcohol mixed in.
With enough pressure from the right government offices/people, forensics can be fudged to show the outcome they want ... I still think there was something fishy going on there, but I also think, Oswald wasnt the only one involved there either ...
Zbone, the thrust of my point is that a shotgun which doesn't make the minimum length (I think it's 26" to meet federal regs) is either illegal or needs a special permit. Those guns are often a pistol grip with no stock. My point wasn't about the grip; completely about the length. So a 6 pound x 25" shotgun is illegal to own (without permit) while you can readily possess a handgun which is much easier to conceal and use in a criminal undertaking.
Federal laws call for a minimum of 26" overall length and also barrel lengths of a minimum of 16" on all long guns unless one buys the appropriate tax stamp(s) to own each firearm under those limits. There are other considerations.
I had not heard that the bump stock equipped weapons were never used in Las Vegas. That is very interesting and would add a whole new level to the agenda.....
Police photos of the room showed bump-stocked rifles laying all over the place. With enough extra-high cap mags inserted (60-100rd mags) in multiple guns. You can even hear in the video extremely rapid fire, somewhat intermittent, but a bit slower than full auto speed... textbook bump stock performance.
Police response into the room was very slow, TOTALLY believable that a lone shooter could spray that many rounds into a huge crowd with those results!
To believe otherwise in this case leans more towards flat earth stuff, IMHO.
The city of Boulder passes an ordinance that requires residents to certify certain types of firearms (and equipment including bump-stocks) or risk confiscation, and some of you keyboard warriors were ready for civil war.
Now, Trump takes it a step further, and passes legislation that requires certain firearm equipment to be surrendered or destroyed by March, with no option to certify and keep said equipment, like Boulder, and the same people here shrug it off because it doesn't affect them.
Scentman - wasn't really trying to go too far, but your prior comment had me concerned. Please clarify - are you saying you do not believe a single bump stock was ever used in the Vegas shooting?? Because if you came to that conclusion in spite of clear physical proof to the contrary, then it's the same as flat earth theory and no moon landing Internet tin foil hat stuff.
If you are only saying that some 'parts' of the story don't add up, and tub have doubts about the overall government story (like JFK assassination) then I am with you.
The idea that one person "could not" have done the Vegas shooting is incorrect. One person could have done it, and appears to have done it, with the equipment necessary found in the room to do it. But having some doubt about the official story and the why behind it is certainly reasonable.
Note - that is a police photo of a bump stock rifle on the Vegas hotel room floor, near the tub. If you see the larger room photo you will understand the exact position in the room. Needed to zoom in to show the bump stock. Which again, explains the odd rate of fire recorded on video... very fast, but not full-auto fast.
I have doubts over the governments story and for JFK, don't get me started :o) parts, not all of the govt. are corrupt... feds and local. I wholeheartedly support honest rank and file, its the higher ups i don't trust... if any man or woman with common sense does not believe the FBI is corrupt at the utmost top, I got some old Jennings compounds I'll sell ya.
Yep. Another law that the criminals will somehow obey. It wont be the extreme anti gun crowd that tilts the scale all the way in the wrong direction...it will be those that say they are pro second A but will support these laws made by knee jerk reactions that will accomplish nothing.
When I was in high school in the 70s, many of us went to school with guns in our trucks and it was never a problem...so what changed?
The bump stock ban rule is out. Bump-fire stocks are now machineguns. To power-crazed tyrants, anyway. But, since FOPA forbids possession of machineguns manufactured or imported later than May 1986, you’ll have to get rid of them.
You want to be good, right?
I suppose you could simply destroy your bump-fire stock, but if the ATF gets hold of some retailers’ customer list and comes knocking, you’ll want some proof that you already complied. You could hang on to the properly cut up pieces (you do have an oxy-acetylene torch?) and show them that.
Or you could turn in your new contraband like a good little citizen. Mail your bump-fire stock to the ATF.
Oh. Wait. That’s “bump-stock-TYPE device.” “Type” is fairly all-inclusive. To be safe, you should send in any bump-fire assist gadgets you have on hand.
Don't have a dog in this fight, but interesting video. Shows that in no way does the bumpstock make a machine gun. Extreme slow-mo shows that there is a distinct trigger reset using one. Video creators made video for use in court.
At full speed video, the bump stock gimmick allows a semi-auto AR to 500 rounds per minute with one pull (micro slow motion video reset aside). The ATF is closing the loophole, the same way they did with drop-in burst sears. And street-sweeper shotguns, and MAC-10's, etc.
These bump stocks gimmicks are the least Constitutionally defendable (ordinary, common in use). I wonder when they are going to go after the 80% lower gimmick!?!?
Not sure I understand the video, Annony? It’s fairly common knowledge how bump stocks and bump firing works and it always involves a trigger reset. There’s no question a bump stock does not create a machine gun per the definition of the NFA. This is precisely why many people (myself very much included) are concerned with the wording around any bump stock ban.
BEG...should have posted the linked article. The video is intended to be used in court challenges to the bump stock ban based upon the BATF/Federal government's own definition of NFA weaponry. Since the bump stock does not actually make a semi auto a fully automatic weapon, the ban could be easily expanded to include any and all semi-automatic firearms. Further, there is a Constitutional problem with the ban as all bump stocks purchased pre ban were legally purchased and the ban automatically makes law abiding gun owners who did purchase a felon unless they comply with the dictate of destroy or turn in. No compensation or grandfather of legally owned bump stocks--a taking.
Now, if the ban allowed presently owned bump stocks to be registered as was done in 1986, there might be a different view. Also, the 1986 law did not prevent further amnesties to be given to bring those war trophies that are being found on a regular basis in someone's WWII vet grandfather's trunk in the attic. Those, since they were unknown and forgotten, must be destroyed under today's law...making some very rare firearms vanish.
Drop in sears are a completely different "animal" as they actually turn a semi-auto into a NFA full auto. Apples/oranges. They are not illegal, but regulated under federal law (registered pre 1986 and tax stamp).
BTW: the semi-auto version of the MAC10 is completely legal. The full auto version is regulated as noted above (registered/tax stamp).