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Wall-Emergency?
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Contributors to this thread:
Bownarrow 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-19
WV Mountaineer 06-Jan-19
Bownarrow 06-Jan-19
Bownarrow 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-19
Your fav poster 06-Jan-19
Woods Walker 06-Jan-19
Huntcell 06-Jan-19
Solo 06-Jan-19
JTV 06-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 06-Jan-19
JTV 06-Jan-19
JTV 06-Jan-19
JTV 06-Jan-19
Bownarrow 06-Jan-19
jjs 06-Jan-19
kentuckbowhnter 06-Jan-19
ben h 06-Jan-19
TT-Pi 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-19
JTV 06-Jan-19
Solo 06-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 06-Jan-19
Dirk Diggler 06-Jan-19
TT-Pi 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-19
JTV 06-Jan-19
bad karma 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-19
ben h 06-Jan-19
Rocky 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 06-Jan-19
Solo 06-Jan-19
TT-Pi 06-Jan-19
Annony Mouse 06-Jan-19
Rocky 06-Jan-19
Bownarrow 06-Jan-19
Thumper 06-Jan-19
JTV 06-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-19
K Cummings 07-Jan-19
Amoebus 07-Jan-19
BowSniper 07-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-19
Amoebus 07-Jan-19
JTV 07-Jan-19
JTV 07-Jan-19
BowSniper 07-Jan-19
K Cummings 07-Jan-19
Amoebus 07-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-19
K Cummings 07-Jan-19
K Cummings 07-Jan-19
MK111 07-Jan-19
BowSniper 07-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-19
Amoebus 07-Jan-19
JTV 07-Jan-19
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-19
K Cummings 07-Jan-19
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Trax 07-Jan-19
WV Mountaineer 07-Jan-19
gadan 07-Jan-19
JTV 07-Jan-19
K Cummings 07-Jan-19
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Rocky 07-Jan-19
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TD 07-Jan-19
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bigeasygator 07-Jan-19
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BowSniper 07-Jan-19
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From: Bownarrow
06-Jan-19
From the numbers below, as a Conservative, I don't see this as an Emergency. Remember, as a Conservative we: 1) use facts 2) don't like to spend money unless we have to 3) don't like giving government, especially a single part of it i.e. Executive Branch more power-we like checks and balances. Special Note: If you can stick to facts and arguments about the topic instead of name calling you'll prove you are not an idiot.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/622246815/unauthorized-immigration-in-three-graphs What evidence do you rely on to justify an Emergency by the President? I think most people believe we need to do something on the southern border, for both security and humanitarian reasons, especially with the unknown of Central American immigration increasing. But based on the numbers and facts I see I don't want to create precedent for a President to label a "politically correct" pet project an Emergency. What's your argument for it?

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/622246815/unauthorized-immigration-in-three-graphs (copy and paste for graphs) NPR.Org The total number of people apprehended for illegally crossing the southern U.S. border has been steadily falling for almost two decades. It's a long-term trend that sociologists, economists and federal officials have been tracking for years.

The trend apparently at odds with statements made this week by President Trump, the secretary of Homeland Security and the attorney general. They defended the administration's detention and prosecution policies by saying that the number of people crossing the southern border has increased.

Officials frequently refer to two numbers to illustrate the increase in unauthorized immigration. As Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said in a speech on Monday:

"Since this time last year, there has been a 325 percent increase in Unaccompanied Alien Children and a 435 percent increase in family units entering the country illegally." However, fiscal year 2017 was a very unusual one for illegal immigration. There was an enormous dip in the number of people apprehended at the southern border in the first part of last year compared with the previous four years, according to U.S. Customs and Border Protection. Sociologists are studying the possible reasons for that dip, but the numbers are clear.

A more telling month-to-month comparison would be between this May and May of 2014, at the peak of the most recent surge in people migrating from Central America. This May, Customs and Border Protection took 6,405 unaccompanied children into custody, compared with 10,578 children in May 2014. The trend was similar for families, with 9,485 apprehensions in May 2018, compared with 12,772 in May 2014.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-19
Kelly,

As I see it, Trump is simply trying to build a mostly symbolic partial "Wall" that he can point to and claim he's fulfilled a campaign promise for political capital purposes. When in reality his "Wall" won't do much of anything to further slow the influx, which your data clearly shows has already been slowing for 2 decades.

Matt

06-Jan-19
Conservatives are frugal by nature. Always weighing the cost versus the reward. It doesn't mean we don't see the benefit of spending money. It means we send it wisely. As KPC pointed out in another thread, you either believe it is worth it or not. A defining border wall is worth it to me. It makes the securing the border much easier and effective. Not to mention safer for our border agents. Which makes it safer for American citizens.

The thing that gets me about this debate is that the only people I have read that is against the wall, are the people using or benefiting from the illegal labor and, people that don't live near the border. That is as telling to me as anything being stated as "fact".

From: Bownarrow
06-Jan-19
WV and HH, I think your arguments are legitimate. You either see the value or you don't. I think it's a good discussion. What I am equally or more concerned about is allowing a President to use emergency powers to build it. Does that mean the next Liberal President can invoke Emergency funding for clean energy because global warming is a threat to the U.S.? Because I talk to liberals who believe that global warming threatens the US. I trust the checks and balances of our Government and believe we need to avoid legal precedent giving the President the right to invoke Emergency Powers. If the threat of migration or global warming is real enough to get majority agreement, address it and fund it. History shows countries get in trouble when 1 person gets too much power.

Kelly

From: Bownarrow
06-Jan-19
GG: While your point is likely true, I still object to using emergency powers to fund it for the reason above.

Kelly

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-19
Kelly,

I fully agree on your emergency powers thought. That's a very dangerous precedent to set.

Matt

06-Jan-19
It’s a made up crisis. Especially noting that immigration is at its lowest point since the 70’s.

And creating a fake emergency will backfire spectacularly.

From: Woods Walker
06-Jan-19
And you're a self admitted liar.

From: Huntcell
06-Jan-19
Honey go fix the lock on the front door, to many people are just walking right in. Don’t worry it’s getting better, only half as many as last year. See it is taking care of itself.m

06-Jan-19
Kelly,

If he is using it as a tactic to force the parties back to the negotiating table, I support it.

I agree it is a dangerous precedent, one the SC would most likely weigh in on. The checks and balances would most likely work, or at least I hope.

Great discussion, thanks.

From: Solo
06-Jan-19
Comparing Executive use of emergency powers to enforce our national security, with some childish fear of future Dem EPA overreach is absolutely ridiculous. Wake up! The leftists would do that crap regardless of whether or not we build a wall.

So Blind Bownarrow demands that everyone should bear the damages of leaving your doors wide open, while the leftists proudly invite the entire world to come on in, with no consequences to their actions.

Foolish thread topic, Mr Conservative. Bownarrow, you remind me of ol' Joshuaf. It has to be very irritating for you to swim underwater with your nose pointing towards Polaris. No wonder your eyes are crossed every time you post...

From: JTV
06-Jan-19
one thing first and foremost B&A is NOT a conservative, never has been and never will be .... this IS an emergency of one of the highest in regards to the safety and security of this country... to say it isnt, puts one in the class of being a Wall/Security denier ...

From: Dirk Diggler
06-Jan-19
This has been over 30yrs in the making. Little has been done to stem the tide. As a carpenter, the influx has held my wages down my entire adult life. Theres weekly news stories of an illegal killing a US citizen, be it in an "accidental" drunk driving incident or something more malicious. Call it an emergency, call it in the interest of national security, call it whatever you want, but both sides have called for border security thru the past 30yrs when its politically advantageous for them to do so. Its past time to quit talkin, and start buildin! It's not the end all be all, it's part of the solution to the problem. BUILD THE DAMN WALL NOW!

From: JTV
06-Jan-19
PutZ along with his butt sniffers are nothing but Wall Denier's .... they dont care about the safety and security of American citizens ... all they care about is defeating Trump and that is a YUUUggge mistake on their part ....

From: JTV
06-Jan-19

JTV's Link
this article seems so pertinent in so many ways ..

https://nypost.com/2019/01/05/democrats-keep-proving-how-detached-they-are-from-reality/

From: JTV
06-Jan-19
Definition of Border Denialism:

1) The belief that physical barriers can simply be “climbed over”…just like that.

2) The belief that there’s “no real problem” on the border because 400,000 illegals apprehended on border per year is “insignificant.”

— Rep. Dan Crenshaw (@RepDanCrenshaw) January 5, 2019

3) The belief that because you can’t put a wall everywhere (i.e. the Rio Grande), that you should, therefore, put a wall nowhere.

From: Bownarrow
06-Jan-19
Solo and JTV, from our posts the readers can tell who the Conservative is and who the Reality TV Republicans are.

Dirk, Hunt, Has, YFP and GG- legitimate points and thanks for your opinion/thoughts.

From: jjs
06-Jan-19
The wall is the only way it will stop anyone from driving into or running across the border, how is a drone or high tech sensors going to stop the illegals unless it is weaponized with a Hellfire, really, this isn't going to happen. Granted a wall will not stop everyone but it will stop an influx of illegals. The Cartels will always have a method to get their drugs across as long as the demand is there. This isn't a Left nor Right issue but it is an American issue in security, worker living standards, environmental and welfare. I am still surprise that this country hasn't been hit yet with a suite case nuclear bomb or biological weapon that is carried across the unsecured border. Maybe Trump will decide to tear all barriers down to the border and then the Left will decide a wall is needed.

06-Jan-19
more US citizens have been murdered by illegals that we lost at Pearl Harbor. so I say its an emergency.

From: ben h
06-Jan-19
Dirk, I'm with you, illegal immigrants do keep wages down and it's significant in a lot of industries such as trades. Some say it doesn't and American's just "won't do the work", which I call BS on. My brother is a contractor who believes this too and he has a self fulfilling prophecy for only hiring illegal Hispanics, because they're the only ones who will work, because they're the only ones he'll hire. I'm for a wall, however I don't think it's an emergency and there's a few things I'd do 1st that don't take any money and I think they'd have a bigger impact. I'd make E-verify mandatory for all employers for current and new employees and I'd hold prime contractors and owners responsible for ensuring this (they already do this for wages and have for decades). 2nd, I'd get rid of birthright citizenship because it no longer makes any sense.

From: TT-Pi
06-Jan-19
Pure economics.

If it saves more money than it costs in a moderate/rational amount of time... It is reason enough to get it done.

If our country is bleeding to death in wasted expenditures on things we can eliminate, then that financial crisis is real enough for me to call it what it is. An economic crisis, provable and real.

Don't ask me to prove it out. It's an " if this then that" kind of thing. Someone with the numbers could help with that equation. I perceive it to be a good plug to an economic leak.

Which brings me to a question? Are there financial motives for more illegals? Something to do with funds being filtered from Federal to State? Welfare and healthcare perhaps?

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-19

Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Grey Ghost's embedded Photo
Did any of you bother to look at Kelly's link? Here's the graph straight from the US Border Patrol report.

If there was ever a true "emergency" it was during the '90s when illegal apprehensions averaged over a million each year. Now we're down to around 300K each year. I call that a substantial improvement.

I know, facts are hard to digest when they don't fit your narrative.

Matt

06-Jan-19
Matt,

Where we disagree is though the trend in illegal immigration was trending down prior to 2017, a reversal back up is probably happening now. I do not believe this is a manufactured crisis, but a macro problem most don't recognize yet.

Referring to my previous comments regarding freedom, as an ever increasing number of countries south of our border shun economic principles that have worked, and install socialism, we will see more failed countries creating a massive Exodus of "refugees".

I hope I don't come off heartless here, but sending aid to those countries is not the answer. Not allowing them to escape to ours, but rather force them to deal with their situation at home, like we did, is better for all people in the long run, I pray. May God have mercy on me if I am wrong.

And yes, I accept many of you will disagree, and that is fine.

From: JTV
06-Jan-19

JTV's Link
dosnt matter if they have gone down, the threats are still real as is the emergency (300,000 to 400,000 is no small number is it of these invaders).... the wall deniers/border security deniers will still continue with any reason they can come up with to stop a Trump win... and that would also be a win for this country ..

http://insider.foxnews.com/2019/01/06/border-wall-stalemate-tom-homan-says-border-win-donald-trump-win-america

From: Solo
06-Jan-19
Bownarrow, defend your 'concern' of future Dem EPA overreach over & above us building any strategically placed border barriers now. Expose your motives.

From: Dirk Diggler
06-Jan-19
GG if you'd like 10k more tomorrow just check every citizenship status in Greeley Colorado. My wages would double by Tuesday and bring me close to where it would have been without the influx. And I ain't talkin 50yr olds, theres a pile of fresh face 20 somethins and new ones daily.

From: Dirk Diggler
06-Jan-19
Ben h. Have you seen a briefcase full of 60k cash on payday? I have. E-verify will work for the law abiding but were talkin about illegal immigrants.

From: TT-Pi
06-Jan-19
Does that mean that there are simply not as many being apprehended and more just being let through?

Or is that a number relative to all illegal attempted crossing? ... the total coming across.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-19
"a reversal back up is probably happening now.

Frank,

You are correct. Apprehensions ticked up to 396K in 2018 according to official US Customs report. I still contend that's a huge improvement over the '90s when they were over a MILLION each year.

That certainly doesn't mean we should be content with current levels. Improvements should be strived for each year, and I believe they are. But, don't you think it's a little disingenuous to declare a "crisis", now, when we've reduced the number by 1.2 MILLION per year since 2000?

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-19
"Does that mean that there are simply not as many being apprehended and more just being let through?

No. Apprehensions are a direct correlation to the number of people attempting to cross illegally. Deportations run parallel with apprehensions, as well. So, there are less people attempting to cross, less people being caught, and less people being sent back than there were 2 decades ago....by a LOT!!

Matt

06-Jan-19
Matt,

I really don't. I think our government across the board is aware of what is going on down south and have grave concerns. Even Democrats know now their support of immigrants is not a guarantee of support for them.

Is Trump better at taking advantage of situations like this better than anyone we've seen in our lifetime? Most definitely IMO.

From: JTV
06-Jan-19
Could it be that Trump has the nads and insight to see it as a CRISIS while others couldnt/wouldnt or simply will not (for their own selfish reasons) ....nah, that just cant be, not in the eyes of #neverTrumpers or the Border Security Deniers ....

From: bad karma
06-Jan-19
So, unless the wall is an emergency, it should not be built?

It can be a necessity, but not an emergency, and warrant being built now. If you want to argue that we should only fund emergencies, I could slash the federal budget by a massive amount.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-19
Frank,

I'd argue our government has recognized the need for more border security thru-out history dating back to 1904, and especially so in the last 2 decades. The numbers support that.

I'm glad you mentioned the whole partisan support notion. In 2013 the D's proposed a $46B border security bill that included $8B for more fencing, and $30B for more border security agents. House republicans shot it down because it also included a citizenship path for the illegals who were already here, if they met certain criteria. The R's clearly feared the D's would increase their voter base more than they desired additional border security. Now, I think both sides are realizing how foolish that was.

I had the opportunity to interact with a bunch of Mexican immigrants when I was general contracting construction work. I'm sure some were here legally, and some weren't. I never got a sense that they leaned more left or right politically. In fact, many of them shared traditionally conservative views and values, like Christianity, capitalism, 2A rights, etc.... They were consistently the best crews I had...hard working, dependable, and polite. They'd often show up with 4-6 guys piled in each vehicle, and they'd swarm the job site like a bunch of worker bees. I don't ever recall a negative experience with any of them. I can't say that about some of my other non-immigrant crews.

Matt

From: ben h
06-Jan-19
Dirk, I am talking about the law abiding. E-verify is not mandatory under most circumstances, so you can hire illegals if you want and it's not a big deal, you just fill out an I-9 and the numbers don't have to match anything and off you go. You can sub-contract to someone who hires illegals if you want to as well should you find yourself in a situation that E-verify is mandatory and then how would you know all the Hispanics on your job site (hotel, restaurant, or whatever) who don't speak English are legal or not?. You can also go through the visa process and legally get immigrant workers. They often times overstay their visas which is where the majority of our illegals come from and the wall won't help with that.

I'm well aware of the cash payments, I've even seen them in the form of drugs and hookers, but I don't think that's the bulk of the problem.

From: Rocky
06-Jan-19
Matt, That graph does not reveal the fact that although apprehensions may be down, (may be down) on paper, it may indicate the belief that many more are slipping through illegally. Here is a little tidbit from the California Census. Real numbers. Non Hispanic whites in 1970 comprised 80% of California's population. Hold on to your hat. The % of NHW in 2001 slipped to 42% and in 2013 the % was 37%. In the year 1960 NHW comprised 85% of the total population in the U.S. Today 35 of the 50 largest cities in America, NHW are in the minority. In 1970 60% of all immigrants in America hailed from Europe. In 2008 15% were from Europe, 2008 , 10 years ago. Again 2008, ten years ago, 10% of all babies born in the U.S. were born to not legal but ILLEGAL immigrants, 10 years ago. Do the math. 1970: immigrants under the age of 18 was 4.6%. 2010 that number jumped to 25%. That was 8 years ago and all these numbers have increased except, funny here huh, European immigrants. Those whose ancestors, for the most part of any other combined, built this country, the catalyst of the Golden Age of America and kicked off the Industrial Revolution. Check your history. Now we are living off the fat of that age wallowing in the new Guilded Age. We have become a service oriented country. That will not stand because it can not on it own. Simply take a peek at the emerging economies in this world and the backbone of their industrial "might". Atomic "might" which America possesses is a outdated state of warfare. Ironically, America all on its own, and a warning for others, devised a warfare that would enable the taking of a entire country without spilling one drop of blood. You got it. Immigration unbridled. Once inside the battle is half over and getting inside the U.S. has become laughable.

Now if Europe is out of the equation which the numbers basically say it is, where are the majority of these immigrants and the exploding numbers coming from? MARS? We all know where, and it appears we could care less for OUR off springs, our children, our grand children and THEIR future? Give away our nation that our ancestors fought and died for and allow illegal immigrants to reap the benefits. The yield from their blood sweat, tears of their labor, and for many the ultimate sacrifice, for ME. I will never turn my back on their memory. NEVER. Not me. Not now. Not ever.

Now someone tell me " Who the hell is, or is quickly becoming, and by some estimates 2060 at the latest, going to be the Native Population in America"? We can not afford the monumental influx in sheer numbers of a single group impacting this nation in a myriad of negatives ways. Mathematically impossible.

The Rock

$5B to start. What a fuqn disgrace. Nothing beats a failure but a try.

The Great Melting Pot where nothing no longer melts.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Jan-19
Rocco,

You are far more concerned about race and ethnicity than I am. If a person is here legally, is a productive, law abiding citizen, and they espouse to predominately US views and values, I don't really give a rat's ass if they are of European, African, Indian, or Asian decent, nor what ethnicity they are.

Matt

From: Solo
06-Jan-19
This "Wall Won't Help Defend Our Border' theory is BS. Ask the experts down there that have been doing this for decades. You bet it requires Billion$ & Billion$. Much more than Trump is begging for. He should demand 50 Billion..!!!

How much is the safety of our Nation worth to you? Awe...never mind. Go back to sleep.... :^)

06-Jan-19
This was just sent to me, thought I would stir it, I mean share it with you...

California

LARGEST INSANE ASYLUM IN THE WORLD

Interesting that the LA Times did this. All the others are staying away from it. Whether you are a Democrat or Republican, this should be of great interest to you!

Just One State - be sure and read the last part... try for 3 times.

If this doesn't open your eyes, nothing will!

From the LA. Times:

1. 40% of all workers in LA County (10.2 million people) are working for cash; and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card. (Donald Trump was right)

2 95%of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were totally paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals; they are here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in LA are Spanish-speaking.

10. In LA County, 5.1 million people speak English; 3.9 million, speak Spanish. (There are 10.2 million people, in LA County.

(All 10 of the above facts were published in the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but over 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth, (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York), results from immigration.

Also, 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

From: TT-Pi
06-Jan-19
Ok... so if the number of new arrivals according to GG is not increasing maybe places like LA are all filled up and overflowing according to H4W's list.

Seems like the free stuff is flowing out of those holes in our ship ... sinking us. It's apparently Costing a huge amount to the American taxpayer. Who voted for that?

That is where I am concerned. Is it now a new "American- moral- value" to give a free ride to whoever shows up? (40% or so )... It is not a Biblical value that I know of.

Maybe there is a correlation... While turning against those standards, as Found in the Beliefs of God-based religions , are we substituting our past function with this dysfunction ... or is that just a coincidence?

06-Jan-19
trump uses and has used a number of illegal immigrants for cheap labor.

weird how hypocrisy plays a role in this huh?

From: Annony Mouse
06-Jan-19

From: Rocky
06-Jan-19
Matt,

You've made my point. Look at the numbers. These are reported numbers of illegals. What are the true numbers? Add up the costs to American taxpayers and you are balking at $ 5B. Btw...I am not concerned, I am totally against any single ethnic group that would attempt, and in this case succeeding, to overwhelm and invade by sheer numbers a sovereign nation, and drain that nations resources. They enter our nation waving their flags and fleeing their bankrupt and decrepit nation, and in the process devaluing our own and America's future. Black Americans, true Americans, should be up in arms and leading the charge. Yes I am against any country that would fall victim to aliens who illegally take over a successful country to mirror that of their failing own. If these people are such a benefit to any nation, why would they not benefit their own and take control of their own and prosper?

The Rock

06-Jan-19
Paul,

Just so we can try and comprehend your logic...

Say it is true that Trump used illigal immigrants with his companies, and even knew at the time they were illegals...

Does this somehow make wanting to correct the problem today something we are forbidden to do because of Trump's alleged past actions?

Even if Trump displays tremendous hypocrisy on this issue, is the rest of the nation supposed to pay the price for his sins?

Just a heads up, an emphatic "NO" is the correct answer.

From: Bownarrow
06-Jan-19
Hab: If you numbers are true it would impact my opinion about our Southern border (it would not impact my opinion on a President using the Emergency Clause in this instance for reasons I have given). I copy and pasted your numbers into Google and here is what came up-articles from Politifact and Snopes (summary: it seems those facts are not universally accepted) :

A viral image on social media -- one that’s critical of illegal immigration -- has been circulating for years. The list of claims first circulated in the form of a chain email in 2006, according to Snopes.com. Six years later, we checked several of the claims ourselves.

With immigration in the headlines today, these claims are popular again. So we’ll take a fresh look at them here.

All told, the list is heavy with claims that are unsupported, misleading, or simply wrong. (We’re skipping the ninth item -- "U.S. Taxpayers are Footing the Bill for ALL" -- because it is too vague to fact-check.)

"43% of all FOOD Stamps are Given to Illegals" This is a bogus number that doesn’t check out mathematically; we rated it Pants on Fire back in 2012. Here, we’ll look at the most recent data available from March 2018.

That month, about 40 million people participated in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, formerly known as the food stamp program.

If 43 percent of that assistance went to immigrants in the country illegally, that would mean that 17.2 million of them benefitted from the program. But there aren’t 17.2 million immigrants here illegally — the most widely trusted estimates have it close to 11 million. The claim also ignores legal restrictions barring immigrants in the country illegally from receiving most federal benefits.

"43% of all FOOD Stamps are Given to Illegals" social media postings – Tuesday, July 3, 2018 SHARE READ MORE "95% of warrants issued for Murder in Los Angeles are for illegals" As the fact-checking website Snopes first noted, this figure also appears, without additional sourcing, in 2005 testimony by Heather Mac Donald, a fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute. "In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens," she wrote in her testimony. "Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."

When we contacted Mac Donald for this article, she said, "This information was given to me by a member of the (Los Angeles Police Department), who was making a rough estimate. It refers to fugitive warrants; homicide suspects who were in the country illegally often return to their home countries when they are sought on a warrant."

Even if this number was accurate at the time -- and it was provided anonymously rather than being an official statistic -- it is a "rough estimate" that is about a decade and a half old. Those qualifications do not appear in the meme circulating today.

In addition, Snopes has noted that illegal aliens might be disproportionately represented in this category because they are more likely to flee the jurisdiction before their cases are adjudicated, and not necessarily because they commit a far greater share of the homicides in Los Angeles.

"Less than 2% of illegals are picking crops but 41% are on Welfare" There’s data that shows a higher percentage of immigrants in the country illegally working farming jobs, but the welfare percentage isn’t as clear-cut. (We rated this Mostly False in 2012.)

About 4 percent of unauthorized immigrant workers held farming jobs in 2014, Pew Research Center reported in November 2016. It didn’t break down the data to crop picking.

A welfare percentage is more nuanced and difficult to verify. We’ve found research showing that about 50 percent of households headed by an immigrant (living here legally or illegally) benefit from government assistance programs. In many of those households, it’s a U.S.-born child who is eligible for a program.

We also found basis for the 41 percent claim in a 2007 report — but most of the welfare cited went to U.S. citizens who lived in households led by immigrants in the country illegally, and very little of it was in cash form, which is what many consider "welfare."

As we’ve mentioned before, individuals living in the country illegally are generally not eligible for federal public benefits.

"More than 66% of ALL births in California are to illegals on Medi-Cal" Medi-Cal is the name of California’s Medicaid program, which covers low-income residents of the state, including, to a certain extent, undocumented immigrants.

The most recent complete data we found was from 2011. That year, the state had 502,120 total births. According to Medi-Cal, 50.4 percent of the state’s births that year were paid for by Medi-Cal. That works out to 253,068 total births on Medi-Cal.

Medi-Cal also reported that 29 percent of Medi-Cal mothers in 2011 were undocumented. So that year, 73,390 undocumented mothers gave birth on Medi-Cal.

As a percentage of all births in the state, that works out to 15 percent -- not 66 percent, as the meme says.

After we initially published this article, a spokeswoman for California's Department of Health Care Services provided statistics for 2012 and 2013 as well. As it turns out, the percentage declined in those years -- to 13.4 percent in 2012 and 12.6 percent in 2013.

We rated this statement False.

Share The Facts Viral image on the Internet

"More than 66% of ALL births in California are to illegals on Medi-Cal." social media postings – Tuesday, July 3, 2018 SHARE READ MORE "60% of all HUD-occupied properties in the U.S. are illegals" This is another instance where the numbers just don’t add up to support the claim. (In 2012, we rated it Pants on Fire.)

Using updated data, there were about 9.7 million people in subsidized housing in 2017, according to data from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development.

So 60 percent of the 9.7 million would mean that about 5.8 million of those housing-subsidized residents were people here illegally, which experts have told us "seems implausible" and "nonsensical."

A 2015 report by the Center for Immigration Studies, which favors low levels of immigration, estimated that in 2012, 4 percent of households headed by immigrants in the country illegally used housing programs. "While households headed by illegal immigrants make some use of housing and cash programs, their use is lower than that of households headed by the native-born for these programs," the study said.

"39% of All California Students are illegals" According to estimates by Enrico A. Marcelli of San Diego State University and Manuel Pastor of the University of Southern California, only about 3 percent of the child population in California -- defined as those under 18 -- were undocumented immigrants in the period 2008 to 2012.

Meanwhile, the Pew Research Center found that 12.3 percent of K-12 students in California in 2014 had an unauthorized immigrant parent. This is a broader category -- encompassing parents rather than just students -- but even this doesn’t come close to the meme’s 39 percent figure.

We rated the statement False.

Share The Facts Viral image on the Internet

"39% of All California Students are illegals." social media postings – Tuesday, July 3, 2018 SHARE READ MORE "75% of Los Angeles Most Wanted Criminals are illegals" This assertion echoes the earlier one that was traceable to Mac Donald of the Manhattan Institute, but she never cited this figure in her 2005 testimony. We were unable to find supporting evidence for it.

We filed a public records request with the Los Angeles Police Department and will update this article if we hear back.

"50% of all gang members are illegals" This is, at best, an assumption, because there’s no official data to back it up. Neither the FBI or U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has officially estimated the percentage of gang members who are in the United States illegally.

A 2011 FBI assessment said there were 1.4 million active street, prison, and outlaw motorcycle gang members affiliated with more than 33,000 gangs in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico. It’s unclear how many of the 1.4 million are here illegally.

We have also specifically asked government officials if they have hard numbers for MS-13 gang members who are in the United States illegally, since President Donald Trump repeatedly mentions this gang in regard to immigration, often making misleading and exaggerated claims.

The FBI estimates there are about 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the United States. But ICE does not have immigration data on the FBI’s MS-13 estimates, ICE spokesman Matthew Bourke said. It’s worth noting that not all MS-13 gang members are immigrants or in the United States illegally. Some are U.S. citizens who can’t be deported.

In a 2017 six-week operation targeting all gang members, ICE arrested 1,378 individuals; 933 were U.S. citizens and 445 were foreign nationals. ICE didn’t have a breakdown of the foreign nationals’ immigration status.

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"50% of all gang members are illegals" social media postings – Tuesday, July 3, 2018 SHARE READ MORE

From: Thumper
06-Jan-19
Matt, its really strange how your apprehension graph numbers coincides with the building and installation of parcel wall sections in critical areas........lol

06-Jan-19
Good for you trying to verify the info. My closest friend is a trumpette who sends multiple emails like this one, daily. I said it was just sent to me because I had no idea how accurate it is.

But, even with your numbers I still conclude the problem is real and must be addressed.

I do admire your approach here! Thanks.

From: JTV
06-Jan-19
Verifying thru Snopes and Politifact ?? ... two obviously left leaning sites ... kinda confirms which way B&A leans if it confirms anything .... and it isnt to the right ... HfW, you have been duped ... those rose colored glasses have been totally blacked out

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
Kelly,

Yeah, the info in Frank's post has been debunked for years. It's amazing how that kind of crap can go viral, then suddenly it's accepted as the truth.

Good thread, my friend. Checks and balances apply to Internet forums too.

Matt

07-Jan-19
Jeff,

Lol. You think those numbers are accurate? Post your proof. I would have expected 3-4 links by now if they were true.

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19

K Cummings's Link
"Matt, its really strange how your apprehension graph numbers coincides with the building and installation of parcel wall sections in critical areas...…..lol"

Thumper:

Some people think that is precisely the reason for the drop on border crossing apprehensions.

From an article titled: (at link)

Border apprehensions and detentions, explained

"An inewsource and KPBS investigation last month found the current U.S.-Mexico border wall is a relatively new structure. Almost 90 percent of it was built in the past 12 years under Presidents George W. Bush and Obama."

"Construction of the wall coincided at times with a massive decline in detentions for illegal entry, which started immediately after a peak of 1.6 million in 2000."

Ironically, in terms of the reduction in border crossing apprehensions, when you look at the why instead of just the what, a case could definitely be made that walls work.

If we've seen this much of a drop in border crossing apprehensions with the barriers that have already been built since 2000, just think how much further they would decline with if we were actually serious about building an impenetrable barrier.

As is often the case, when you look a little deeper, the stats used to support one opinion might just support the opposite.

KPC

07-Jan-19
Our economic slowdown, Great Recession, also played a role in illegal migration.

Issues are usually a little more complex than the 'got ya' barbs would have us believe. Their economic slowdowns are what we need to worry about now.

07-Jan-19
China slowing will lead to more saber rattling as it keeps their restless population at bay due to a strong sense of nationalism.

Pull yours out now.

From: Amoebus
07-Jan-19
From KPC's link:

“This is a big, long-term generational change, where many fewer people are trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico border than were 17 years ago,” Meade said.

During that period, economic conditions in Mexico improved, which kept more potential migrants from leaving. Meanwhile, the U.S. suffered an economic recession that began at the end of 2007 and lasted for several years.

Not sure where you get they are saying the wall is 'precisely' the reason for the dropping numbers.

07-Jan-19
Yes, actually read daily. China has a growing restless rural population that includes some Muslims.

What I read, the analysts are fully convinced a social uprising of a large magnitude will occur within 20 years. And yes they are easily manipulated by saber rattling which unites the citizenry because of strong nationalism.

Maybe try starting a good conversation without insults. If someone was in control of me, I would be playing along with the majority here. Like me, you are no expert, though you want us to believe you are because of your military experience. Tons of guys have quite a bit more than you. There reason you and I were/are not top dogs.

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19

BowSniper's Link
In December, it was reported that 22,000 mre crossed the border. In the accompanying image within this article linked, you can SEE them actually climbing over the existing wall. We need a bigger more effective barrier!

The 'emergency' is because we do not just immediately send them back across the border. Instead we try to hold them for trial. But we do not have the capacity to hold them long enough to await trial. So we eventually drop them off by the busload to disappear in the US interior. Thus defeating any notion of "immigration control" at the border. A national emergency.

More here

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/25/us/el-paso-immigrants-ice-christmas/index.html

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
"Like a leaky dam don't need fixin."

Yet, in Trump's own words, the "big beautiful wall" has changed from a full length border wall to a 1000 mile partial wall, to a 700 mile combination of repairing existing fences and maybe 50-70 miles of new wall. It's gone from solid concrete, to steel slats with spikes, to "we're testing various designs." It's changed from 40' tall to 30' to 20' to....who knows what?

LOL. He doesn't have a clue, nor do we, yet we're being asked to pay for it at any expense or promise of its effectiveness. And you dummies are willing to blindly follow along like sheep, based on nothing but vague and undefined promises and partisan BS.

BTW, Shawn Magyar, I've noticed your semi-illiterate redneck writing style has suddenly changed to something that actually resembles proper English grammar. Did you take some crash courses, or were you just being dishonest before?

Matt

07-Jan-19
85% of the illegals in this country entered the country legally. Only 15% came over a border illegally. We should focus on people who are overstaying their visa not the much smaller amount of people coming across parts of our border. Also, there are parts of the border where most of the 15% cross.....we should focus on those areas first.

From: Amoebus
07-Jan-19
" Also, there are parts of the border where most of the 15% cross"

Do those areas currently have a wall/fence/steel-slats or no?

From: JTV
07-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2019/01/07/fmr-israeli-mayor-in-first-year-after-wall-was-built-illegal-entry-into-israel-was-cut-almost-to-nothing-710901

From: JTV
07-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://www.dailywire.com/news/41842/watch-nyt-writer-tells-cnn-only-honest-way-cover-hank-berrien

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19

BowSniper's embedded Photo
BowSniper's embedded Photo

BowSniper's Link
Historically many may have remained after overstaying their visas. But real time RIGHT NOW there are literally hordes streaming here in an organized effort to overwhelm our southern border and enter illegally. And a wall is needed to stop (*dramatically reduce) them.

The DHS is arresting 50,000 illegals a month on the southern border. "Arrests" meaning those illegals who made it into our country illegally. That we keep processing and releasing after arrest, rather than immediately deporting.

If we tossed them back as fast as they arrived, a border wall would be less of an emergency. But holding, processing, and then releasing several hundred thousand every year within our borders is lunacy. And a barrier wall is the only effective means to stop the hordes from illegally entering in the first place, thus breaking the cycle.

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19
”And you dummies are willing to blindly follow along like sheep, based on nothing but vague and undefined promises and partisan BS.”

Does your hypocrisy know any bounds Matt?

If we all didn’t know better, it would almost appear as though you think you are the smartest guy in the room, and your ego and arrogance are limitless.

But we all know that’s not the case, because that’s what you often accuse others of.

Surely I read that wrong because you wouldn’t engage in that type of behavior after admonishing others for it.

KPC

From: Amoebus
07-Jan-19

Amoebus's Link
Rhody - "The huge difference now is the religious ghaad against USA and the infiltration of eastern men illegally crossing the border. I forgot the number of stopped terrorist activities reported from a few years back, but it was over 1000."

Wallace (on fox) corrects sanders and gets her to admit that the terrorist argument doesn't relate to the border. Do you have different information?

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
Kevin,

The difference is, I fully admit I have a large ego. It's a character trait that I struggle to suppress, but am often not able to. You, on the other hand, deny your large ego, while displaying it on virtually every post.

Look, I think our discourse has become far too personal, petty, and adversarial to be constructive. I'll accept my equal share of blame for that. I certainly can't control whether or not you respond to my posts, but please feel free to add me to your list of people you ignore, and I will do the same. Fair enough?

Matt

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19
"Wallace (on fox) corrects sanders and gets her to admit that the terrorist argument doesn't relate to the border."

Sanders admitted no such thing.

Again, if we listen to what was actually said, in context, and not what somebody else said was said, things aren't always as represented.

Sanders clearly disagreed with Wallace when he said they were coming only through airports:

"They're coming a number of ways. I'm not disagreeing with you that they're coming through airports. I'm saying they come by air by land and by sea."

KPC

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19
Matt:

Since the beginning of my participation here, I have always made an attempt to point out what I believe to be inaccuracies, hypocrisy, and falsehoods, no matter who posts them and what their political affiliation is. That has never changed, nor will it.

You are welcome to do whatever you wish, but I am going to continue to post as I always have. As I have said before, I will stop responding to people if I determine they are an obvious troll, a liar, or mentally unstable. If and when I come to the conclusion that you are one of those, I will stop responding to you. Otherwise, you can expect me to post as I always have.

Fair enough?

Furthermore, I try to take the time to think carefully about what I post, I try to choose my words carefully, and I always at least try to research what I can before I share an opinion on something.

Because of that, I am very confident in what I post, and therefore I am willing and able (at least to my satisfaction) to defend it. If that's is how you define a large ego, so be it.

KPC

From: MK111
07-Jan-19
As far as I'm concerned everyone was is against the wall ever has their head up their rear end of are far enough away from the border they don't see the harm. To these doubter I say leave your garage door up 24-7 and take your front door off so anyone can come in 24-7 as they please. OH yes and open you back door so the invaders can run out when you get pissed.

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19
I heard that Sanders interview where they tried to argue that no terrorists came across the southern border. How about MS-13?

Always bullshit word games. We know dangerous criminals are among those entering illegally across the southern border. Let's stop the nonsense and put an end to it. Now.

If Visa overstays are a problem. Stop them too. Don't just keep pointing in another direction parsing words to promote confusion and gridlock.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
Kevin,

Absolutely fair enough. I'll do the same, hopefully a bit more humbly.

Matt

From: Amoebus
07-Jan-19
KPC/BowSniper - Okay, of the 3,755 'terrorists' that trump/sanders/nielson reported being captured, how many were caught on the southern border?

If 0 (like trump's state department reports), then why was it trumpeted on all the sunday shows?

From: JTV
07-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://cis.org/Report/Have-Terrorists-Crossed-Our-Border

"While President Trump may have raised the prospect of terrorist border infiltration to gain political advantage, facts would support his contention that Middle Easterners from places like Syria, Iraq, and Egypt, as well as from South Asia and the Horn of Africa, do indeed routinely travel the same routes as Hondurans to the U.S. southern border and that some terrorist suspects have traveled among them."

how many have crossed that we know nothing about ?? .............

07-Jan-19
A quote from a FOX News story posted right now;

"Meanwhile, Republican senators are starting to see Trump as a liability. An unpopular president, pushing an unpopular wall, and an unpopular government shutdown – all three opposed by the majority of Americans – combine to put McConnell in an untenable situation".

07-Jan-19

Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Link

I posted this as there has been disagreement about whether the majority support a wall or not. And the leading CF conservatives like this source.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
"how many have crossed that we know nothing about ?? ............."

I'll add, and how will Trump's border plan serve to stop them? Oh wait...there is no plan...never mind.

;-)

Matt

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19
"If 0 (like trump's state department reports), then why was it trumpeted on all the sunday shows?

I have no idea, nor do I particularly care. I was only responding to the assertion that Wallace got Sanders to "admit" what you said she admitted.

As to the actual number of terrorists that have come across the southern border, it only makes sense to me that there has been, and we probably won't ever know unless and until something happens. Then hindsight is 20-20.

We never had terrorists commandeer commercial airliners using box cutters and proceed to fly them into buildings killing thousands of innocent people either...until we did.

If we know (and we do) that hundreds of thousands of illegals aliens are crossing our southern border, would you suggest we wait until one of them blows up a couple thousand people before we build a barrier?

I've never had anyone walk into my home and kill my family either, but that doesn't stop me from locking my doors. Would you suggest that I leave my doors open unless and until someone actually does that?

KPC

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19
I don't honestly know how many of the hyped 3,755 terrorists came across the southern border. I would be fine if it was zero.

Because that is a blatant dodge to avoid addressing what we DO KNOW is coming across the southern border, and how to best stop it once and for all. MS-13 gang members. Drug smugglers. Human traffickers. Various drunk and disorderly migrants with no home and no job here who will be an unlawful burden on our society. Criminals who would accidentally kill innocent Americans in driving accidents, or deliberately out of desperation.

50,000 illegal borders jumpers a month in the latest numbers I saw. Call it a half million a year. And then once here, their children... and their children's children. Who then get to bring in parents and cousins and uncles. A multi-generational tidal wave that is overwhelming our system.

Look.... we let in 1 million immigrants every year. That was the capacity our government has determined we can handle. Generously. So if you want to turn a blind eye and allow a few hundred thousand 'extra' to migrate illegally across the border every year, then we gotta cut the LEGAL immigrant number by that same amount to NET the same total. Fair?

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19
HFW -did you read the byline of that article? Authored by a Democrat Political Analyst. You might as well quote GG or Putz as a reliable anti-trump news source. C'mon now.

From: Trax
07-Jan-19
The liberals in Congress do not want a wall for one reason and one reason only, they do not want to give President Trump a win to go along with his many others. On a lesser note they also want to play the political game no matter how it hurts the USA and we the people, they want to keep feeding their sheep.

A wall is clearly needed. How many thousands if illegal invaders are trying to cross that border every single month? Look it up. A wall is where it starts. Congress is not going to enact legislation that is desperately needed that would keep them out all unto their own decision, so we must secure the border in other ways.

There are many ways to pay for this. Unappropriated funds, cutting aid to countries, emergency actions etc etc. Senator Cruz has a bill sitting in Congress right now that would seize drug lord funds (primarily from El Chapo) that would pay for the wall as needed. Congress could also cut back on salt and pepper and fund it tomorrow. But again, they can not give President Trump that win.

The wall will be built, as intended. That means improved along the 600 miles of present wall where needed and in places added as needed. IF we can not get Congress to change present laws to improve the situation then we must work with the countries these invaders are coming from to keep them there. That will take action. Oh, it's coming.

07-Jan-19
But it was FOX!

;)

07-Jan-19
That must be some of the educated sources he was referring to in the other wall thread.

07-Jan-19
But it was FOX!

;)

From: gadan
07-Jan-19
Build the wall. The emergency is clearly seen when you look at the pictures of thousands of people invading our country. If thousands of people invading a country is not an emergency, I don't know what is. Economically, we know that 5 billion is pile of money but 16.5 billion is far worse and that is what it costs for medicaid payments for illegals already in our country each year.

From: JTV
07-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-millward/brent-bozell-mark-levin-if-media-were-doing-their-job-they-would-be-blasting

07-Jan-19
Now Justin, man you cannot hide those double standards!

JTV posts FOX articles daily, and you accept it as the truth. Just because they agree with your position.

FYI, some of the sources I used to form my opinion on China are GeoPolitical Futures, The Economist and a retired friend who worked in Intelligence. You OTH have used the CF, LOL. Yep, I listen even more intently to those I disagree with. It is obvious you only listen to what you already believe.

Remember my post on Predictions. Lots of trumpettes calling for a big Trump influence, and both houses staying in R control and picking up seats. I called it close because I am aware of resources that know more than me. Iowa Electronic Markets.

But, yes, you keep making your smart butt comments like you know something.

Some guys you can take out of the jungle, but the jungle stays in them.

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19
"But it was FOX!"

That's what fair and balanced looks like.

"But it was FOX!"

That's what fair and balanced looks like.

One more strike and you're out Frank.

KPC

07-Jan-19
But it was FOX!

Three strikes, I accept my punishment that you will never respond to me again.

And Matt is an insane troll, add him to your list.

Doesn't a winky mean anything any more? It was an intentional agitation for fun. Good grief:)

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19
"Doesn't a winky mean anything any more? It was an intentional agitation for fun. Good grief:) "

So was mine Frank. I didn't think you needed a "winky" to recognize facetiousness. Apparently I was wrong.

"Three strikes, I accept my punishment that you will never respond to me again.

And Matt is an insane troll, add him to your list."

Dream on Frank. I realize that in your profession you probably aren't accustomed to having people push back on your theories and opinions but you might want to get used to it. We aren't your students, and this isn't your classroom.

KPC

OOPSIE, I almost forgot.

;)

:)

8^)

From: Rocky
07-Jan-19
Everyone here on the CF who honestly and truly from the bottom of their hearts love America, and the American way of life, knows the devastating future that awaits our procrastination in securing our borders. People can argue the sky is not blue by those who love blue skies on a cloudless day for the sake of argument. The fact that it is destroys the illogical argument.

This is not the time for blue skies, half measures or debates. Get this through your thick heads for the sake of your love ones, if you can not find the courage in your heart to stand and fight this imminent danger to your own country. We are at war and war is hell as many here who have engaged it will attest. To think otherwise and not address, when all events point to the absolute inevitable conclusion, is a sign of cowardice. Nothing protects being unprepared except being prepared when at full strength. We are losing control yearly of our own destiny and the destiny of America left for us to protect centuries ago. The numbers in this Trojan Horse are overwhelming. America through ingenuity has overcome many obstacles to defend her shores. To continue debating this issue in this country, and refusing to act and act NOW, will lead only to an embalming of this nation. Bank on it if you can recognize the America you thought you knew so well and would ALWAYS be.

The Rock

07-Jan-19
Kevin,

Please slow down. My last post ended with a smiley face, which I thought meant in all good fun.

You guys keeping getting it wrong about college. We have debates, some open to the public. They are intense. We not only encourage but expect debate and push back. We try and educate in the flavor of a true Liberal education at JCCC. And most will not get the meaning of 'Liberal Education' and assume it means taught by Democrats.

Quit assuming.

Am I on or off the list now?

;-)

:)

Didn't know which one was proper in this situation.

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19

BowSniper's Link
Wasn't it GG who insisted Trump had no real plan, so that this border wall idea could only be bad. Because there was no 'official' plan as to how Trump would spend those taxpayer dollars. Ya know, written down and submitted for his review and approval.

Like this one...

At what point does arrogant obstinance become desperate flailing...?

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19
You are definitely on the list Frank, but probably not the one you were hoping for.

8>)

As to my "assuming."

In my opinion there is a difference between assumption and evaluation. In this medium, we evaluate people based on the way they post. I do it, you do it, we all do it.

If your classroom is anything like here, you expect and encourage debate...right up until you've decided that you've had enough, and then you want it to end...and you actually expect it to end. You've said as much many times.

In your classroom, you have that control. Here, not so much.

KPC

From: TD
07-Jan-19
B&A had me at "as a Conservative,". When you start a thread with BS...... I would expect much more to follow.....

Walls are effective. Israel has proven that. Heck, prisons prove that. Your home proves that. If you're truly serious about stopping or even greatly slowing the influx of illegals then a wall is a NECESSITY. Talk to any of the experts that are dealing with this issue daily. Not some goof that is against it because "it sends the wrong message" (personally it's a great message...) or "these are just poor people we should be helping..." (no, WE shouldn't, you want to then go down there and help them, put your money where your mouth is) or " I'm against anything Trump is for..." (self explanatory..... stupid when you finally see what you look like with no nose....)

The really stupid arguments are "lets just use more drones and sensors...." yeah, lets TRY to catch them AFTER they have entered already..... even if caught, see above what the SOP is when caught.

How about do everything above? Put up a better wall, start with those points best served by one. Change the way invaders are dealt with. Yeah, beef up drones and sensors. This isn't a "just pick one" test. If it were it would be "all of the above".

Outside the normal leftist open boarders group, several here have no real input as to how to stop illegal invasion, or really even care. Doesn't directly have much negative effect their lives.... why should they? Their main objective is to bash Trump.... or see to it that he doesn't come off looking good for doing what he said he would. Their argument really has nothing to do with effectiveness, necessity or cost. Just Trump, or rather their hate.

It never would have happened, hell would freeze over first...... but as much as I hated Obama..... if he had proposed sealing the southern border.... he would have had my support on that. Heck, that at least would have been a shovel ready job that he finally admitted didn't exist....

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19
Well stated, TD

From: bigeasygator
07-Jan-19
"Wasn't it GG who insisted Trump had no real plan, so that this border wall idea could only be bad"

I think there are plenty of people that could easily say that's no real plan either. Where will the wall be constructed? What will the wall be made out of? Why are the proposed wall sites being picked? There are plenty of unanswered questions that a real plan would answer.

Recognizing that we have almost 700 miles of some type of wall in place already, and even if we build 237 more miles of wall, we still have roughly 1,000 miles of border without a wall.

At the end of the day, I haven't been convinced that more wall will do much to stem border crossings and I don't think what we're seeing in regards to the impact of illegal immigration rising to anywhere near the level of what I would say constitutes a national emergency.

Border security is important. This notion of a border wall is not.

07-Jan-19
Kevin,

Actually the students end more than I do. You can read when they have had enough. Usually right before I win;)

That was a joke. When they end I always leave it at we will have to agree to disagree. Debates in a classroom or peers you work with do not go like these here. Mainly because over time and face to face a respect level develops. What we see here is the same as on most social media platforms.

I got used to being called names. I can relate to Eric on That 70s Show;). We both thought our middle names were dumb a$$.

Somebody calls me that, I usually respond with my best Deniro imitation; "You talking to me?". Hard to believe I still have all my original teeth:)

From: Dirk Diggler
07-Jan-19
Trump will answer all your questions tomorrow night.

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19

BowSniper's embedded Photo
BowSniper's embedded Photo
BEG - some 50,000 a month are illegally crossing our border and getting caught (or surrendering). Figure some percentage more are getting across and NOT getting caught. Combined that's a very big number. Exponentially even larger when they never leave and it becomes a generational multiplier.

We know they are climbing over, under, and through the fence/barrier we have now. Pregnant women and little children can get over it for god's sake, we can see them in photos. We can watch them with cameras and drones. The border agents see it every day, hundreds of times a day.

How about we finally stop it?

We can secure the border with a $25 billion dollar wall. Or maybe a $20 box of ammo with a live fire warning. Pick one. Or come up with something equally effective. But this nonsense has to stop.

From: bigeasygator
07-Jan-19
"How about we finally stop it?"

Again, color me unconvinced that a moderate improvement over the existing physical structures (either by adding to what we have or upgrading what is in place) is going to "finally stop" illegal immigration.

In my mind, the reality is that it won't be stopped, but we can mitigate it. And I'm not convinced that we aren't mitigating the risk to a level that's reasonably practicable right now with the measures we have in place.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
"Wasn't it GG who insisted Trump had no real plan..."

Yes sir, I did. And thanks for another relevant link. I note that this new and improved "plan" just became public yesterday. Boy, am I behind on my news. ;-)

So, the "plan" continues to evolve and mature slowly, like a fungus in a petri dish, while our beloved legislators waste our money jockeying for political capital. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I think I'll grab my recurve and shoot some stumps. At least there's a brief moment of satisfaction when I finally hit one.

Matt

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-19
GG - take your recurve down to the southern border. If you hit a stump and it yells "Aye, caramba" we can call it a win. Together.

07-Jan-19
Lol!

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
LOL....now there's a real plan, Bowsniper.

Matt

From: Rocky
07-Jan-19
BowSniper,

That picture you posted should be distributed throughout the U.S and or every door step in America. A shinning example and depiction of the lunatic government architectural think tank that spends your money without thought or reserve. A impregnable barrier made of corrugated steel, horizontal no less in design, to withstand and thwart the brightest of criminal elements who would foolishly attempt to breach the complimentary "steps" in its design to climb over it. This picture obviously omitted or removed the image of the vertical knotted rope that was included with the design. Regardless we are so concerned about the costs of a wall. Incredible.

The Rock

From: JTV
07-Jan-19

JTV's Link
Trump should ask Pelosi and Schumer to go along ... they could use some education of the real problems that exist down there, or they can then explain why they didnt deem it important enough for them to go ....

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-to-travel-to-southern-border-thursday-sarah-sanders-says

From: bigeasygator
07-Jan-19
LOL @BowSniper. That one brought a chuckle out of me!

From: Annony Mouse
07-Jan-19
Not one penny for the wall? Then not one penny for illegals. Nothing

(Note: internal reference links at link)

An illegal alien has scored again, taking the life of 22 year old Pierce Corcoran:

The death of 22-year-old Pierce Corcoran has brought home to Knoxville the heated national debate over illegal immigration and the need for a border wall.

Corcoran is the son of Knoxville Fire Capt. D.J. Corcoran, also the department’s spokesman.

Franco Cambrany Francisco-Eduardo, 44, of Oak Ridge, was arrested in connection with the wreck that killed the Grace Christian Academy graduate earlier this week. Police say he swerved into oncoming traffic on Chapman Highway, killing Corcoran on Saturday. He is charged with criminally negligent homicide and driving without a license or insurance.

How many Americans must die for the sake of liberals allowing illegal aliens to freely invade this country?

Despite the constant caterwauling of liberals led by Nancy Pelosi about the proposed wall being “racist”, Americans are very concerned about illegal invasion.

According to an Economist/YouGov survey, a jaw-dropping 93 percent of Americans believe that illegal immigration is a problem.

“A wide-ranging Economist/YouGov survey gauged the level of concern Americans have on the issue to find that only 7 percent of the overall public say illegal immigration is ‘not a problem’; 2 percent of Republicans, 7 percent of independents and even 12 percent of Democrats agree with the statement,” The Washington Times reported.

There are differences in how serious people believe the immigration problem is, but those who shrug off illegal immigration are few and far between.

When she met with DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, Nancy Pelosi chose to reject the facts

At one point during the meeting, according to the Wall Street Journal, Pelosi interrupted Nielsen, who was citing statistics related to the border, including how many criminal illegal immigrants attempted to enter the U.S. last year.

“I reject your facts,” Pelosi told Nielsen

“These aren’t my facts,” Nielsen shot back. “These are the facts.”

Nancy Pelosi made clear that the fallout from the actions of illegals is merely “collateral damage”:

“…if there is some collateral damage for some others who do not share our view, well, so be it…”

That’s a hell of a way to look at the deaths of American children.

So it’s “not one penny” for the wall. She has called the proposed wall “immoral.” She has walls in her home, the Clintons and the Obamas have walls around their homes. There were guns and walls around the Golden Globes. The left wing media has refused to confront her with that.

Fine. Trump’s response should “F**k you, Nancy. Not one penny for the wall? Then not one penny for illegal aliens.”

Right now the US spends $18 billion per year for illegal alien health care. (Note: APHIS reports diseases that have been eradicated in the US are now being seen and spread by unfettered illegal immigration. jack)

The US pays illegal aliens about $4 billion in child care tax credits despite them paying nothing in taxes.

Most illegal alien families collect welfare.

Illegal aliens collect more in welfare than do American families.

It should all end.

No wall, no money for illegals. Period.

Update

And stop funding the Nation of Islam

From: stagetek
07-Jan-19
No emergency at all. Just a very delusional President creating panic and total lies regarding border security. Complete liar, never been a bigger one in the white house, since the last "biggest liar" Richard Nixon. A complete and sad joke...Too bad it's not funny !

From: TD
07-Jan-19
A troll by any other name...... would smell so PutZ...... oh wait..... that's lots of names.....

From: JTV
07-Jan-19
A cheese head from Wisc. .. swiss cheese that is , full of holes... must be the first crossover case of CWD ... as brain dead as PutZ ...

From: bigeasygator
07-Jan-19
”APHIS reports diseases that have been eradicated in the US are now being seen and spread by unfettered illegal immigration.”

Haven’t seen a single disease attributed to illegal immigration and not a single release from the APHIS. Source? Also, illegal immigration is hardly unfettered.

”...despite them paying nothing in taxes.”

Not true. Illegal immigrants pay billions in all kinds of taxes each year.

”most illegal alien families collect welfare.”

Illegal aliens are ineligible for nearly every type of welfare available. You can’t exactly feed a family on school lunch vouchers.

”illegal alien families collect more in welfare than do American families”

By whatever measure you use (average welfare per family, total welfare dollars, etc), this is false.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-19
"Can ya hit anything with a bow. Liberals arra’s tend to miss left."

No, I can't. Fortunately my quarry always seems to move left before my "arra" hits home. I guess it's a gift.

Matt

From: K Cummings
07-Jan-19

K Cummings's embedded Photo
K Cummings's embedded Photo
Sure hope she doesn’t drop that poor child.

That would surely be Trump’s fault.

KPC

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
simple to see BEG isnt up to date with what is going on at the border, esp. when it comes to the infectious diseases the illegals are carrying ...

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/30471-will-migrant-caravan-kill-your-child-with-disease

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
an excellent PDF on Illegals and their diseases .....

https://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
while many are stopped at the border who are sick and carrying various diseases, there is always the huge risk of those sneaking in being a carrier, thus the more stopped at the border, the better, and the best way to do that is with a Wall/Barrier ..

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/30777-nearly-2-500-migrants-in-tijuana-sick-with-communicable-diseases

From: TGbow
08-Jan-19
My wife told me that if we were in Mexico she would do what she had to do to get our daughter to a better life.

I wonde what some of us would do if we were in someone's shoes that just wanted to make a better way. Regardless, it's common sense that we should secure our borders. I don't think we should stop legal immigration but it's common sense that we should secure our borders.

From: K Cummings
08-Jan-19
"Trump should ask Pelosi and Schumer to go along ... they could use some education of the real problems that exist down there, or they can then explain why they didnt deem it important enough for them to go ...."

Excellent idea JTV. Talk about optics. If they accept, he wins. If they refuse he wins.

KPC

08-Jan-19
TGBow, everyone here is for legal immigration. Most whole heartedly. There are only a few dimwits that seem to prefer illegal immigration.

From: bigeasygator
08-Jan-19
JTV, neither APHIS nor the CDC have said anything about a rise in previously eradicated communicable diseases due to illegal immigration as far as I've found. None of the documents you've shown have definitively linked illegal immigration to any of these rare diseases that occasionally arise in the United States. The diseases they are citing (malaria, tuberculosis, leprosy, etc) can easily be explained by other causes (the overwhelming majority of malaria cases come from travelers returning from SE Asia; leprosy is also transmitted via armadillos and is most prevalent in the Southern states where they range) and we're certainly not seeing an outbreak in any of them (tuberculosis cases have declined every year but one in the last 25; leprosy cases have been flat for 15 years, etc).

From: slade
08-Jan-19
""The decrease in the absolute number of new cases of tuberculosis in U.S.-born individuals was accompanied by an increasing proportion of cases attributed in non-U.S.-born individuals, who accounted for 69.8% of the total and whose incidence of tuberculosis was now 15 times greater than in U.S.-born persons.""

From: bigeasygator
08-Jan-19

bigeasygator's Link
Just because TB is higher in a certain population and is trending upwards in a certain population doesn't mean that there is an outbreak or cause for concern to the greater population. The data shows the risk of TB is lower now than it ever has been. For every 100,000 people in the US, roughly 30 die from car accidents - compared to the .1 to .2 people that die from TB.

Is it a risk? Sure, just like lots of things are. Is it something that concerns me much? Nope.

From: MK111
08-Jan-19
TB is spread to other people and can cause 1000's to be infected. Car accidents only hurt the one in the actual accident and no chance of infecting 1000's.

We need no one to come into the country with infections.

I feel sorry for the ones born in those 3rd World countries. It was just our good luck to be born in the USA. We can't save the whole freaking world at our expense.

From: JTV
08-Jan-19
KPC, I now see that Pelosi and Chucky have demanded the MSM give them "equal time" after Trump's speech tonight .... It would be great that if during his talk, he ask's them to go along..... they'd crap their depends ...

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://www.theblaze.com/news/obama-border-patrol-chief-reveals-truth-about-border-walls

From: Rocky
08-Jan-19
TGbow,

The emotional child card ain't working here and I am for ALL children first. Under that pretense EVERY person in this world would basically becoming to America who loves their children. America would then eventually mirror the country they fled from and Americans themselves would suffer the results. There comes a time when enough is enough and enough at this time is more than enough, the dynamics changing daily.

The Rock

From: JTV
08-Jan-19
Rock, that is no different than some of the "Chicagoans" coming into NW Indiana, trying to escape from the stranglehold of the politicians in Crook and Lake counties in Illinois, but yet they bring their drugs, gangs and liberal/dem ideologies with them.... they can just stay where they are if they are going to do this crap, we dont want nor need them here ...

08-Jan-19
HH,

Being reported by the WSJ that someone who saw a draft copy of the speech said he is not declaring an emergency. Could be false, who really knows.

From: TGbow
08-Jan-19
Rock, I get it. I was pointing out that sometimes we don't know what we would do if we were in a situation. Not saying it's an excuse. As a nation we should look to the welfare of our citizens first for sure.

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

the hypocrisy of the left ... they were for it till Trump became POTUS ....

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
this is also the 'scum' that Schumer and the rest of his Dems are ...

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/424251-democrats-plan-to-jam-up-senate-over-shutdown-fight

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://insider.foxnews.com/2019/01/08/rush-limbaugh-border-wall-funding-battle-trump-vs-media-democrats-never-trumpers

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/01/08/poll-plurality-agrees-with-trumps-border-crisis-description/

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2019/01/08/wow-washington-post-just-gave-trump-huge-helping-hand-border-crisis-time-address/

From: JTV
08-Jan-19

JTV's Link
https://www.breitbart.com/border/2019/01/08/lawyers-president-trump-cite-national-emergency-build-wall/

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