K Cummings's Link
I must admit, that assertion really got me thinking over the last couple days. It got me thinking about what exactly our recourse is when a politician doesn't keep his/her promises. It got me thinking about what our civic duty actually is within our Constitutional Republic, and more specifically what the current President promised during his campaign, and what he has actually done.
You can like or hate his style (sometimes I do both). You can agree or disagree with his vision (sometimes I do both). But it's hard to argue that he has been ticking off virtually everything he campaigned on. In terms of campaign promises -vs- actual accomplishments, Donald Trump may well be one of the most honest Presidents in recent memory. (see link)
As to our civic duty, other than the ballot box, what recourse do citizens have when a politician doesn't keep his/her campaign promises? How do we keep them accountable?
Like it or not, our vote is the only thing we have. Everyone is entitled to do what they want, but as for me, there is NO WAY I would ever willingly give up the only mechanism I have to effect change.
What say you?
This like asking if I would willingly give up breathing. You're dead on. Another "From My Cold Dead Hands (or Fingers)" list!
Beyond that, respectable discourse. Really honoring the experiences, vision, of those with different views and trying to see the world from their angle - honestly. Which can be hard, since we all carry our own "baggage".
That said, an additional challenge, is that you have representation from 50 states and the need to operate at a world level. So you have a ton of drivers behind decisions, many "we the people" will never know.
So, is the lack of a promise being followed through on, the fault of the politician, or the system? Both, but since both are part of things, I think you have to weigh in.
Using President Trump, had the house and senate been D controlled, would he have done what he has done? Highly unlikely. Just like with President Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan etc what they could do was constrained by the additional branches of government.
If a politician say's they will do something, and they try but it cant get through the rest of government... That's not a lie anymore than an athlete is lying when they say they/their team will win, and they don't.
For example, if President Trump doesnt get the wall, and those who rabidly support him just ditch the guy and dont show up like they did in 16 or want a new option, that seems ridiculous given, like the guy or not, he's certainly appearing to dig in and fight for this. If he doesn't get it, that wont be a "lie" on his part. It will be a loss. Big difference.
Suffice to say, I didn't "give up" my right to vote, I chose not to exercise it. Isn't freedom a wonderful thing? Neither candidate was palatable to me. It was like a choice between cow shit or horse shit for dinner. I'd rather go hungry, and hope for a better meal tomorrow.
For example, if President Trump doesnt get the wall, and those who rabidly support him just ditch the guy and dont show up like they did in 16 or want a new option, that seems ridiculous given, like the guy or not, he's certainly appearing to dig in and fight for this. If he doesn't get it, that wont be a "lie" on his part. It will be a loss. Big difference."
I agree Will.
Unlike many liberals, many who claim to be conservatives tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater when they don't immediately get exactly what they want. We are often our own worst enemies.
Make no mistake Matt, if this thread was aimed directly at you, I would have mentioned you or used your original quote. I'm not shy that way. Never have been, never will be.
I am on record, many times, about my feelings about the importance of casting a vote, even if it is for the lesser of two evils. I've touched on this topic many times over the years, long before I was ever aware of your voting record.
This thread is not about you, but if you choose to own it, please be my guest.
Yes, your statement is what got me thinking about this subject again, but I intentionally left any specific posters out of it because I wanted to have a broader discussion about what I believe is our responsibility as citizens of this nation.
Will, very wise statement. People have different personalities/perspectives/experiences etc, and what is right for one, not so right for another.
Which would politician haters prefer?
No politician is perfect, some more imperfect than others.
They are still the best option that we have, but it is our obligation to do what we can to hold them responsible to honestly perform the duties of their elected position(s).
In light of the fact that Donald Trump has been honest about actually enacting or at least trying to accomplish exactly the things he ran on, if the election were happening today, would he earn your vote?
Look, if a guy had lied and cheated and scammed people their entire adult life, how do you think they’d be as politicians? Boy Scouts?
Hate Obama all you want but he lived a just, moral and decent existence. His heart was always filled w good intent and the way he conducted himself was nothing short of honorable and in public service.
Trump? He’s got a past of cheating, lying, scamming, bankruptcy, and a host of immorality. And that’s how he governs.
No, that was just your opinion. Not fact at all, and as it turns out completely wrong. We had no chance with Hilda, we had a chance with Trump. That chance with Trump has yielded greatness. Perfection? of course not, but a multitude of great things and for conservatives like me the most conservative president in the modern era in terms of production, and production is what matters.
Parasite Obama was an America hating race pimp. A dumb pawn of the global cabal. He is a vile socialist and the enemy of every freedom loving American. Now Paul Zeidan, why don't you again show us the PROOF that Justice Kavanaugh's wife KNOWS he is guilty. You know, like you did, you had the PHOTO to PROVE it. Tells us again one of your countless lies. While Hilda Clinton or OBOZO may make President Trump look like St. Paul, YOU may make Hilda and OBOZO look like St. Paul.
Those who choose not to vote do so out of laziness, ignorance, or apathy. For some, it is obviously all three with a dash of self loving arrogance mixed in of course!
Basically it was "If I sign the funding bills, would you then have an honest wall conversation?" She said "no", that makes the conversation over and yes Trump then left.
Hell even media is the same. Day after the speaches, MSN had two articles right next to one another, the first said Trump clearly won, the second said Trump clearly lost.
MOre and more I judge on actions, not words, especially with politicians who think if they aren't talking tough, they aren't doing thier job.
Obama is just and moral because the media gave him a teflon suit.
Conservative SC Judge # 1 - check
Conservative SC Judge # 2 - check
Dozens of conservative lower court judges - check
Slash government regulations - check
Impose tariffs on countries that don't trade fairly - check
Get out of Paris Accord - check
Get out of Iran Deal - check
Increase jobs - check
Lower minority unemployment - check
Open ANWAR / Keystone - check
Get rid of Obamacare - partial check
Increase oil and coal production - check
Increase median household income - check
Move US Embassy to Jerusalem - check
Increase military spending - check
Build border wall - partial check
Renegotiate NAFTA - in process
Expose the fake news media for the liars that they are - check
That's a pretty darn good track record for the first two years of a Presidency that is under constant attack, constant investigation, and constant ridicule.
What did he campaign on that he hasn't accomplished or at least tried to accomplish?
As I said, you don't have to like it all but he has probably held true to more campaign promises than any President in my lifetime.
I despise back-stabbing Republicans even more than I do lying Democrats. At least with the Dems you KNOW who the enemy is
(1) that would expose HIS preferred candidate to the same scrutiny and criticism as he gives others.
(2) You can only pretend to be right if you avoid specific answers to direct questions.
I understand what you are saying but I have to respectfully disagree.
The day before election day, I would have said that my vote in Michigan didn't count either...and I would have been wrong. Had a whole bunch of us in MI, PA, WI stayed home thinking our votes don't matter, Hillary would be in the WH.
Every vote matters.
Will, I agree with much of what you said, I most often do, But I don't think we can reduce the battle to simply "different viewpoints" ( implying that both are equal in merit or reasoning). Some things are without a possible resolution such as I like Vanilla and You like chocolate. Which is better? But some things are Such as math and honest science are easier to reason out.
Just because there is two views on something does not make them equally valid. "Beyond that, respectable discourse. Really honoring the experiences, vision, of those with different views and trying to see the world from their angle - honestly. Which can be hard, since we all carry our own "baggage"."
I didn't like the idea of Fundamentally changing America. America has great Fundamentals. I didn't like the radicals that Obama congregated with. Some are nasty people who hate some very Fundamental American values and its people. And so on. I can not "honor that viewpoint". But I can say it without threats or degrading comments.
However, that has to be a two-way street. When the L-D's had the upper hand I don't remember this kind of nastiness from the C-R's Maybe it went on but I think its fair to say that much more is popular now.
That new Liberal technique of bash away does threaten the Existing people and it's structure. Such a disposition is not just "another Viewpoint" any more than a thief saying it's not your stuff ... that's just your perspective! It is a viewpoint of entitlement and retribution based on whatever they want to take away from those who own it.
That's just fancy thievery. Not just a different viewpoint.
Forced charity is just a Tax. Without my consent, it is "without representation" and will end up in the harbor once again. ( locally pronounced Habbah... )
They almost always announce their hidden methods and agenda. "You're in thick with Russia"... But it is their own guilt I see. "You are Fabricating a False Crisis" when it is exactly what their team has been doing all along to him. "Impeach" before there is a crime ... Slander a Long respected Judge? Be against a border secured when they were for it already?
The hypocrisy and lies are hard to keep up with and that "Other position" is "their position" which can only be described as contrarian and bizarre. The new Liberal charge is without any need for rational thought, honor, decency or truth based assertion. "Basic American values be damned." That's not a just "another view" or possition its the destruction of basic American structure and reasonable differences.
It's like making Evil wrong and stupid just another valid position...
It's no wonder they think it will work. Operating under the pre-rewarded Nobel for intention ( A Nobel peace prize to BHO before? for intention?) That's A world gone mad.
Is that what all this obstructionism is really all about? The Dems REALLY don't understand / accept that they lost in 2016???
If you don't vote just stand in the shadows and shut up!
That said, those attempts by the left were not out of the blue, random, pie in the sky, "lets just mess with conservatives" thoughts. There was a motivating charge prior to them in the form of real things that happened.
Example: Lets try to help people rise and be able to take an active role in society. That's a great ideal! A root of modern liberal thinking. One can have endless and awesome debates about the best path to do that... But the root, is there. The drift in approach is such that it's enabled more than helped, major negative. Another one is the affirmative action approach or victim status for everything etc. The root, if you look honestly, is a very good thing - to help people, to give them a chance. The path got all screwed up and to far over the top and ultimately became what it despised. There in lies a big problem.
It seems that the snag, is that rather than seeking to grow beyond it, they opted to do what they claim to dislike and essentially have spent a few decades trying to push upon others that which they, again, claim to dislike.
You live in MA Pi, did you ever listen to the most popular talk radio station here during the late 90's through maybe 2 years ago? The keynote, prime time, most popular host - IN MASS mind you - was Jay Sevrin - Newt Gingrich's campaign manager I believe. He often had some good points, but he also made a living eviscerating people for being liberal on the air. They were not bad ideas - they were horrible evil people, pigs, etc...
Sevrin wasn't the first, maybe in Boston he was, but not nationally. Heck, while Sevrin was on the air Howie Carr (still popular here) was a slightly more tame flame thrower towards anyone who dared suggest a D could have a good idea.
That's one set of examples from hyper liberal MA. The entire media spectrum, even 10 years ago, was much less driven to push anything for a click than it is today. So the further we've developed the worse it's gotten.
So, yes, Conservatives nuked Liberals for years - and yes, the opposite as well.
Now we have both a "media" format so driven on clicks that anything goes to get such clicks and a leadership that pretty much begs to be polarizing and extreme, so yes, there will be more vitriol (both ways) now than there was a couple years ago, and more in 5 years than there is now. Unless something changes. My hope, is that it does/is. Because we all develop our way out of it.
The validity thing is really cool man. That's another liberal stumbling block. If you preach no truth, it's hard to suggest truth is ok eh? That's something I've thought a fair bit about recently, and some interesting philosophy review (when in doubt and pondering why the world is the way it is - while hoping it can survive and be a good place for one's kids, break out the philosophy books and get busy - I'm a nerd - it's what I do). Point blank, there are truths. Political or ideological or developmental agendas mess with them... but they exist. The more we progress the more truths there are, because we learn more. Which is a gift. Likewise, there are things believed to be true which are proven wrong. That's uncomfortable, but, a great chance to grow - be it a person or population is up for it. That readiness seems totally up to the developmental process at hand for that person/those people. I'd argue that we get blind to truth if it doesnt agree with us - and there is a mountain of good, legit, well done, psych research on that reality. That makes the emergence of "new" truths really uncomfortable for folks, and has helped drive many areas of distrust and ideological tribalism for sure. Frustrating.
But when you vilify everything (trigger / safe space / micro aggression / (UGH) much for example), then suggest nothing is real, it's hard to operate.
That's a really long way of saying, the recent approach of the left is not a good one when it comes to creating the positive changes they would like to see. Which I find frustrating because the root's of those changes, to me, are good. Equal opportunity, no "ism's", environmental stewardship etc... those are good things.
There are extreme voices, big time, on the conservative end at the moment - and those are as nuclear to our nations best interest as those of the left. Extreme/radical right groups, IE, the modern klan and other right hate groups... pure evil. (someone is going to reply and suggest 1.) I ramble (correct, I'm guilty) and 2.) what about antifa etc. Yep, a poor approach to solving a problem, and not a good group of folks for darn sure... but given the increasing rate of radical right violence and even our current administrations admission that it's a problem...yelling "AntiFa sucks Will, take your liberal crud and get lost" is pretty ridiculous. Nice article on that subject from a non partisan source: https://www.csis.org/analysis/rise-far-right-extremism-united-states).
Now... All those approaches I noted that the Left has used, which were poor despite a valid intent - equal opportunity etc - well... it's interesting to see how the right is attempting to essentially undo them via the same strategies - forcing a world view. Then, they are surprised - when for the last 30-40 years the left has increasingly done the same to them and they have gotten all ticked off about it - that the left/far left is freaking out at the moment? As a football commentator I cant remember the name of used to say: "C'mon man"
That's basically Newtonian Physics right there.
Hopefully my point makes some sense. I'm saying, what you used the good analogy of thievery to describe, is true.
But I'm suggesting - just an opinion - that while an aggressive, face palm, full frontal sort of challenge feels good when we have felt frustrated, and could be viewed as refreshing... It doesnt really solve problems, at least not for long.
That is a positive though of all of this (which you have said in our discussions over the last few years). The ridiculousness of some over the top strategies could be chopped down and we end up able to really work towards good things like equality, opportunity for all, strong economics, a healthy environment and populace, etc.
Good stuff bud! I've really enjoyed these discussions! And to anyone who made it this far, sorry for the "thesis"... I'm thinking outloud and just processing on the fly... I also have really fast moving fingers... So the result is a LOT of words.
Oh, Eric, you forgot the "h" in Habbah :)
Of course there is always going to be the lunatic fringe on both sides but there is a difference in that the extreme right wing voices are on the street. The extreme left wing voices are in congress.
Just because a bunch of twitiots go on about it doesn't mean it actually is happening. Calling someone racist or a nazi does not make them one. It's just an attempt to invalidate others arguments when they run out of facts and logic to support theirs. Those are strong accusations that demand factual evidence.... proof. But they are tossed out with little thought.... much less intelligent thought.... and even less evidence and facts. See: AOC.....
Then factor in a great deal of the "radical right violence" recently has been leftist staged, doing it to themselves in an attempt to blame "the right" or racists, white people, etc..... right down to the mother of a child murdered in a drive by shooting a few days ago.
And the KKK etc. is a denounced and dying group..... I know NO ONE on the right who publicly support anything about them. They are at their fewest right now they have ever been. They are basically irrelevant. And in a few years will essentially be gone.
Justifying violence on the left by saying "yeah, but their heart is in the right place" is BS. Pure and simple. I see virtually NO ONE on the left denouncing the ANTIFA crap. Well, without attempting to justify them in the same breath. "yeah, but...."
Couple remarks by Waters and Holder and dozens of others to "get in peoples face". "kick them".... etc.... the left is condoning "disruption" of their opponents, to put it kindly. Not debating them face to face in the arena of ideas....
Will is secretly playing for us... Kidding friend :) it's no longer a secret...
Thanks for pitching Will. I appreciate your honesty and evaluation. I think you are seeing the problem as it is (now). That's what we have to deal with ... now. The affirmative action and other compensating ideas are exactly the problem. They don't work. They attempt to make "even" what is not. Equal opportunity is an opportunity and only that, not a free ride. just a fair playing field. We are already there!
Everyone knows there have been injustices and we are a changing society. Some would have us believe the underclass- the minority are the proponents of change and anyone else in the majority is against that change. Classic Straw man. It is the majority that changes the injustice because they agree. It Cost 750,000 lives in 1865- to prove it.
Woman vote and that was not made possible without men voting it to be so. White men fighting for the liberation of their fellow man. Social programs to help the poor from starvation was not done by the needy but for the needy. America has gotten involved in a few major wars to keep others in the game... It is Classic American to do as we have done. We are already that way. We don't need anyone to try to shame us or guilt us or bully us, into being anything else.
Both sides want a fair opportunity. We can't get there by being jerks and demanding under the threat of rioting and such. But that is the voice of the left ( chosen by the left ) to lead this charge. You are saying the same thing. It is not the way to get it done. It is the way to further divide us and that is obviously the true intention. All the while paying lip service to an end-result that can't happen that way. All the while... saying its "that racist Man" cause he's white and a little odd, said something stupid or whatever, Him, he is the big bad roadblock ... It's Not stupid, its just a lie. They know it and do it with intention ... It's word games and the audience that gets swept along are not very sophisticated. They're counting on it.
If I tell you I have your best interest at heart and make things worse ... well, I don't. If I give you more than you have earned and tell you to have pride and dignity ... well, you won't. If I put you over the better candidate and tell you that's fair , well it isn't and if you're worth your salt you know it too. That is the platform they are selling and only immoral or simpletons would agree with it. So why do it? Why not educate in fair play and encourage hard work and stop giving false hope and evil ways to the little man who doesn't know better.
The sad thing is it gets deeper into the public psyche and the intended audience does not get elevated as proposed. They act like idiots and irrational because they are told to do so and shown how. That's just Evil.
Don't say it isn't so ... I Live in Ma and vote anyway. I live in a town where there are no (R) choices for some elected office's. We vote anyway. We sent our voice to the elected that serve us all. Yes, Wall.
Someday we could be one vote short and it won't be me.
Yes Will, please explain your assertion. That is twice now you've made that claim in the last year. Yet, i still haven't seen an example of it.
I can't speak for TD, but as for me, not a chance. Finance committee chairman at my local church is all the notoriety I want or need.
WV - read the link. It explains the extreme right wing fringe stuff. I'm not making that up. If the link isnt satisfactory, hit up pubmed and search scholarly papers to see the same point, repeatedly.
I forget who noted that being, for example, KKK, and right wing doenst mean the right endorse it. Correct. I fully agree with that. 100%. Recognize that AntiFa is not endorsed by any but the outer edge of the L - despite the right wing talking points. They happen to be a crazy loon fringe of the L. Regrettably, the KKK is the crazy loon fringe of the R.
The irony overall though - is that I've basically torched the left for a week on here, with valid points, and any comment which may ever so slightly suggest the right could have some issues as well is almost the only one seen. Look beyond. Look beyond. Again, those negative behaviors originated someplace. An overly simplified example, want to understand why a kid is a brat? look at their parents.
Maybe this all explains why I feel like a centrist - I think everyone (in politics) stinks, and believe they could, that they have the potential to, be great - ha ha ha!
I'd consider voting for KPC. Reasonable person, well thought out, clearly tries to really think things through and consider options, but also has a clear compass bearing. I think his Church gig sounds a lot more enjoyable though. Go for it TD I'd take you over Mitch :)
It is simply a purposed mislabeling that appears to have accomplished the role intended when smart people just lump extremists into a group.
FWIW, I don’t “lean right.” I am actually about as conservative as they come, I’m just not a right-wing radical.
In my opinion, not all liberals are leftists, and not all conservatives are right-wing radicals.
-GG, the problem with this analogy is that you don't get to opt out of the results. So, you're going to be force fed something - even if they had to bind you to a chair and gag you. 'Going hungry' is just not an option. Besides, in this case, the 'horse s#*t' tastes a lot like chuck eye steak. It ain't filet mignon but it is a far cry from crap. I say that as someone with the same pre-election disposition as you. Could not stand either candidate.
It's not like if you choose to opt out of voting, you get to opt out of the result. It doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion.
If it's a choice between cow sh*t and cow sh*t with arsenic, I'd take the cow sh*t every time.
That's fair. Upon further reflection, I think my choice to not vote was based more on frustration and defiance than anything else. Admittedly, those are not the best reasons, but they were mine, and I own them.
I will also concede, Trump has governed more conservatively than I thought he would, which has been a pleasant surprise. That said, I think his "style" has polarized our government more than any other president since Nixon, and that may push more moderates further to the left in the long run.
As I told Kevin privately, my wife is a perfect example. She has always been able to see both good and bad in all the presidents we've had up until Trump. She dislikes Trump so much, I find my self defending him to her at times. That troubles me because I suspect she's not the only one who Trump has pushed further left.
My first question would be who did she vote for to begin with?
We go out for pizza every Thursday night with a group of friends. We've been doing it for years. It's when we all solve the worlds problems. Sometimes there is up to 5 couples, last night it was just 3 couples. Last night we were discussing Trump, the border wall, and how we feel about the way Trump has governed so far.
One of the ladies was a huge Trump fan from the start, and is still a huge Trump fan. Two of the ladies (my wife included) held their noses and begrudgingly voted for Trump. Both of them said that he has been much better than anticipated and would vote for him again in a heartbeat.
If enough people had protested Trump's 'large ego' we would have Hillary as President. New liberal SCOTUS judges legislating socialism into law. Open borders. Taxes on carbon and coal industry shut down. Probably no steel industry either. Everything outsourced to the global world order. No new military spending, when Obama left with half of our planes unable to fly. US in retreat around the world. Voter laws changed and districts shaped so that Dems would hold power forever. It could have really been the start of the end for everything we hold dear....
So it's one thing for a conservative to say they had some hesitation about voting for Trump in 2016. But holy crap, who can be touched by such gentle feelings that even now they would say they would not vote Trump to defeat Hillary? Is that being crazy? Liberal? Petty? Or just being petulant?
So yeah, Trump has an obnoxious/offensive style. So do I, really. But he is getting some important things done for the conservative viewpoint. Really done, as promised! So I'll have to give him a pass on style for now as he may have saved the entire country.
If some dumb cluck or chump want's to vote for a candidate because of how they part their hair well just maybe we would be better off if they never voted. If they're THAT easily led. It is the ISSUES and ONLY the issues that matter on election day, and after it is only PRODUCTION that matters. President Trump has been a God send for the USA and we the people.
The people Trump has polarized that make a difference are the old school power establishment that he has delegitimized. They hate him, they fear him. He could topple their little club. Their powerful cabal. Thank God for that, President Trump has at least bought this nation some time.
Trump did well with independent voters, but where he really shined was how well he brought out the apathetic voter. The people that had given up, the people who thought they no longer counted. He brought them to the voting booth and they voted for him. That hasn't changed, it may have grown. Look at his rallies. The left and the sheep hate him more than ever, the first group for good reason and the second because they are clueless. Those that were on the fence but voted for him are more strongly in his camp than ever. That's because of production.
Adam, I don't disagree with anything you said. My point was, I think a lot of moderate people vote based more on their perceptions of the candidate's personality traits, like humility, integrity and honesty than they do on actual policy issues. From my experience, the majority of people simply don't keep up with politics like most of us do here. They watch a 30 second clip on the evening news of Trump acting less than "presidential" and displaying his large ego, then they form their opinions of him, then tune out the rest.
In fact, I come here to discuss politics, because many of the people in my circle of family and friends usually roll their eyes and don't care to talk about politics. And I can't blame them. It can be a very divisive topic, after all.
- My 2 concerns with Trump was that he would preside like a defacto leftist and that he would permanently sully the idea of republicanism, conservatism and capitalism. My fears are allayed regarding the first point. History will render judgement on the latter. My kids sound like your wife and I often feel like I have to reel them back in.
Because of your inherent dislike for Donald Trump the man, I believe that is the prism you view what the opinion of others might be.
Think of all the people, including you and me, that have openly admitted that Trump has actually governed much better than we ever expected.
Now how many people that just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for him the first time won’t feel the same and vote for him the second time??
We have two of those in our pizza group also.
The notion that the only way Trump is pushing people is “further left” (that in and of itself is kind of telling re: your wife) is a miscalculation in my opinion.
- KPC, I'll have to respectfully disagree. I'm right of Reagan and I want to distance myself from the man. It's a messaging thing. It's like having Ted Nugent being the poster child of hunting. Yeah, his head is in the right place but his mouth and antics so repel the average person as to turn them from the substance of the ideology.
Yes, our opinions vary on this one. I guess time will tell.
"Think of all the people, including you and me, that have openly admitted that Trump has actually governed much better than we ever expected."
That's just it, Kevin. The only place I've heard anyone admit that is here. I don't think the CF is necessarily a microcosm of the rest of the country.
And yet it's still not good enough? He doesn't make smooth flowery speeches. He isn't sweet and nice. He once pushed the President of Montenegro out of his way.
Sorry. The other option was Hillary. And you are a goofy liberal nut job if you think 'not' voting for Trump in 2016 would have the country in a better position today. Or that a vote today for Trump is not equally or better a decison that it was before.
There are people that DO think that... like Putz. But that is the camp you would be in.
No, it's not, in my not so humble opinion. Think of where we'd be if Trump governed how he has, but without all his antics that make people like Owl and myself want to distance ourselves from him.
Look, I get the whole "best option available" argument. But, that shouldn't prevent us from pointing out Trump's flaws, and desiring better options in the future, IMO.
So does that mean he's pushing you "further left," to the point where you would vote for a Democrat in the next election?
"That's just it, Kevin. The only place I've heard anyone admit that is here."
I hear it quite often. I suspect it might be the people we associate with. To my knowledge, I don't personally know of a person that actually voted for Trump in 2016 that now says they wouldn't vote for him again.
However, I know of some that didn't vote for him, or didn't vote at all, that now say they would.
"It's a messaging thing. It's like having Ted Nugent being the poster child of hunting. Yeah, his head is in the right place but his mouth and antics so repel the average person as to turn them from the substance of the ideology. "
I would disagree. While I don't happen to like him, Ted Nugent has encouraged countless numbers of people to start hunting. On the other hand, I don't know of one person that stopped hunting because of Ted Nugent.
That's a red herring.
First of all, Trump has been able to govern the way he has, because of the way he is.
Second, "where we would" be without his antics is irrelevant to your original assertion that he is pushing people "further left."
For that to be the true in your case, he would have to:
A. Convince you to vote
B. Convince you to vote for the Democrat running against him.
In Owl's case it would require a person that is by his own admission "right of Reagan" to vote for the Democrat instead.
It is clear now. The most conservative president in the modern era. Able to accomplish tremendous good in his first term. Very accomplished, great production for the USA and we the people. So based on that it's crystal clear. President Trump has done an outstanding job, and all the while the stinking liberals and old school Party establishment fighting every move he makes just to prevent him getting another win. Thank you President Trump, looking forward to near 6 more years!
You are absolutely correct about 'production', and informed voters will be drawn to Trump in 2020.
I think Matt and Owl are correct also. Most citizens only pay attention long enough for sound bites. Style matters to them.
Nugent might have turned some on to hunting, but the future of hunting will be decided by the majority, who are non-hunters. He turns many off here.
Nice to see polite discourse. Thanks.
Oh boy, now you really opened up a can of worms. In my opinion, the only thing that could possibly be worse than not voting at all would be to vote for a third party candidate.
Make no mistake, it would matter.
If the TPC leaned left, Republican would win. If the TPC leaned right, the Democrat would win.
Please God, if there is a TPC, let it be a leftist.
No one is saying it's wrong to critique Trump's many flaws. We are saying its disingenuous bullshit to pretend there was a better choice then or now from the available options. The tooth fairy, while a sweet gal, was not running.
Likewise with border security. It's your frequent position that Trump's idea is bad (but the water, look at the water!) while not demonstrating how the wall would not work, or how you would secure this water threat you see as a greater danger (even if that was correct, which it isn't)
All this misdirection- deliberate or accidental? Are you trying to fool us? Or trying to convince yourself?
-No but there is A TON of population ideologically more "center" than myself. I can definitely see Trump fatigue negatively influencing the next POTUS outcome. Remember who he defeated. It was a tight race between he and the most despicable human in the politisphere. If the DNC has the sense to run someone likable, Trump and the GOP could go down under the weight of hate.
You might be right Owl, only time will tell.
However, within that politishere, there is a lot of population that is and was quite pleasantly surprised...in spite of his "antics." The list of his accomplishments to anyone other than the most hardened liberals is long. That is undeniable. Add in a third SCJ, the wall, and whatever else he can accomplish over the next two years and his personality will really only matter to the leftists...who aren't going to vote for him even if he was found to be the second coming of Christ. Actually, if he was found to be the second coming of Christ, that would probably hurt him even more with the lefties.
However, Perot jumped in and out on a conspiracy prank, and then picked a VP that didn't come across well on TV. In the end, he siphoned enough votes to give us Clinton. If a few more people got wishy-washy about Trump, it would have given us another [worse] Clinton!
I have yet in my lifetime to see a dem candidate that is even remotely could be considered..... and getting worse by the day it seems. And have never seen a 3rd party human that was passable. Or viable.
Does that mean I "blindly vote for the R..." ??? I don't think so.
Especially now..... show me a dem that is worth the salt in their blood..... I'd consider it. But in all honesty..... you can't. The moderates no longer exist..... or are silent and irrelevant. They are moving more and more radical left. They strive for a world that isn't worth living in IMO. Only way I wouldn't wizz on em is if they were on fire.
Like it or not, if you vote for a democrat, you are in essence voting for the entire party platform, power structure, and judicial nomination ideology.
Same if you vote republican.
I don’t care how much I like or dislike a candidate personally, I would never vote for the democrat, and all that entails.
Understand one thing, this is exactly how you get a guy like me; a realistically conservative person who feels no obligation to help the "R's" because everything I do is not "their" way and the "R's" can't help themselves but attack. And just to clarify, the only person I was saying "blindly voted for the R" was KPC, and only because he has specifically stated as such.
Yes, every representative gets one vote, whether they are R,D, or I...that is IF there is ever a vote. Real power in the legislature is held by the committee chairs and the house/senate leadership, and those positions are determined by raw numbers. You might think you are voting for a "moderate" democrat. However, in a very real sense when you vote for any democrat, you might better be comfortable with the leadership of their party because ultimately, that is who you are voting for. In many cases, if you are not the party in power, there won't be a vote at all.
For a recent example you need look no further than the Kavanaugh nomination. Had the republicans not held both the leadership in the Senate, and the leadership of the Judiciary committee, there is NO possible way Kavanaugh would have been approved.
"Understand one thing, this is exactly how you get a guy like me; a realistically conservative person who feels no obligation to help the "R's" because everything I do is not "their" way and the "R's" can't help themselves but attack. And just to clarify, the only person I was saying "blindly voted for the R" was KPC, and only because he has specifically stated as such.
I don't know if I'd call it an "attack." A difference of opinion, yes, an attack, no.
Now, I will admit, I'm referring mostly to national politics. If you are a single issue voter, or you are just looking for a representative to bring home pork to your local district, you might have a case. However, in my opinion, when it comes to national politics, you aren't voting for an individual as much as you are voting for a power structure.
As far as me "blindly" voting for republican. You are welcome to that opinion also, but I can assure you that I don't do it blindly, I do it strategically. I just know that as a conservative, no matter how good it may make me feel, adding one more democrat to the structure is never in my best interest. The only way I will vote to replace a republican is with another republican.
That would be a party of one.
Have you ever met anyone who had exactly all of the same political positions on all issues?
Pretty sure that already exists Matt. Jimmy just needs a confident, charismatic personality like yours to carry the torch.
"Have you ever met anyone who had exactly all of the same political positions on all issues?"
Several, at least so they claimed on the issues we discussed. Of course, you never really know if they are just being agreeable to avoid further discussion, either. I've met a few people like that, as well.