Summit Treestands
Vaccines and autism
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Contributors to this thread:
Spike Bull 12-Jan-19
Bownarrow 12-Jan-19
DL 12-Jan-19
DL 12-Jan-19
Spike Bull 12-Jan-19
HA/KS 12-Jan-19
Tiger eye 12-Jan-19
Owl 12-Jan-19
HA/KS 12-Jan-19
Bownarrow 12-Jan-19
Fivers 13-Jan-19
Will 13-Jan-19
Amoebus 13-Jan-19
jjs 13-Jan-19
Owl 13-Jan-19
Spike Bull 13-Jan-19
HA/KS 13-Jan-19
Will 14-Jan-19
Spike Bull 15-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 16-Jan-19
Spike Bull 19-Jan-19
DL 19-Jan-19
Spike Bull 19-Jan-19
HA/KS 19-Jan-19
sportoutfitter 19-Jan-19
Tonybear61 23-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 24-Jan-19
Tonybear61 24-Jan-19
Will 24-Jan-19
HA/KS 24-Jan-19
Will 24-Jan-19
Trial153 24-Jan-19
HA/KS 30-Jan-19
IdyllwildArcher 30-Jan-19
Glunt@work 30-Jan-19
Brotsky 30-Jan-19
slade 30-Jan-19
HA/KS 30-Jan-19
HA/KS 01-Feb-19
Will 01-Feb-19
HA/KS 09-Feb-19
Amoebus 10-Feb-19
slade 10-Feb-19
HA/KS 11-Feb-19
Tonybear61 11-Feb-19
Amoebus 12-Feb-19
Annony Mouse 12-Feb-19
KSflatlander 18-Feb-19
Will 19-Feb-19
12-Jan-19

Spike Bull 's Link
A 10 minute video investigative report by Sharyl Attkisson.

From: Bownarrow
12-Jan-19
Since you are interested in the topic Spike, you might want to read these: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/no-mmr-autism-link-large-study-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-kids

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/ama-backs-evidence-based-vaccine-policy-opposes-new-commission

From: DL
12-Jan-19

DL's Link
http://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/ama-backs-evidence-based-vaccine-policy-opposes-new-commission

From: DL
12-Jan-19
I don’t know what is causing all deadly allergies and Austin’s. in this country anymore. Forget using nukes on this country. A jar of skippy would clean out a lot more. I have a feeling all the hand sanitizer lathered over everything isn’t helping. I wish there was a study done on the instances of Autism and food allergy’s on farm kids. When our kids were tiny we were told to not work about them crawling around on a “dirty” floor. It would help build their immune system. I believe we as a country are sanitizing our kids to death. My generation and kids generations never heard of nut allergies here in California.

12-Jan-19
Interesting, however I find it odd that given the current propensity for the FBI and DOJ, among 9thers to study witch hunting that a conscientious medical organization would deny a commission to continue studying this possibility. It seems to me that they would want to study Attkisson's independent sources and not stick to the big-pharma talking points.

From: HA/KS
12-Jan-19
Deleted due to unpopularity with people I respect.

From: Tiger eye
12-Jan-19
Uhhhhh. No. Not really. Happy as a lark and healthy as an ox. No broad brushes please. I my get offended.

From: Owl
12-Jan-19
That's an uncharacteristically low rent comment, HA. And, in my experience, the "anti-vaccers" are most likely home schooling Christian types. Good people.

12-Jan-19
Appreciate that Henry. A close friend, well educated and Republican has not fully discounted the rumored link between immunization and autism. In the midst of dealing with it, people look for answers.

From: HA/KS
12-Jan-19
Autism is very difficult. It has impacted family, friends, and both my wife and I have worked with children at school.

There is zero evidence of vaccine causing it. There is ample evidence that vaccines have saved the lives of millions.

Scientific willful ignorance frustrates me. Scientific discussion based on research is good.

Unfortunately, many are unable to discriminate between astronomy and astrology in discussions of this type.

From: Bownarrow
12-Jan-19
Owl: Fyi, my kids were home schooled (Christian). And yes, there is a contingency that does not follow evidence based medical practices. But most of the people we home schooled with do vaccinate and believe in science. It sounds like you know some homeschoolers that are anti-vaccine? In addition to the group you mention you will find a group with similar anti-vaccine views in the liberal (big money) Hollywood hills. The world is a big place and one often finds strange bedfellows if you look closely enough, especially when talking about groups with extreme views. And yes, I am insinuating that anti-vaccination (for fear of autism) is fear based and extreme. It's the kind of nonesense that gets children killed by flu and many other diseases each year.

Kelly

From: Fivers
13-Jan-19
I remember reading an article on the possible causes of the increase in autism, I can’t remember what they thought could be at the top of the list, but I remember it seemed to make a lot of sense. It might have been something like certain preservatives that pregnant women eat. It was definitely something during the pregnancy,

From: Will
13-Jan-19
Everyone can have a set of beliefs... I'm fine with that and recognize we all come from experiences which form us. Which makes me really frustrated when folks go down the AntiVax wormhole. Along with antibiotics, they are probably in the top 2 or 3 most life saving advances in medical science in the history of man. Sometimes folks have allergic reactions and that is a challenge - with all meds.

Add in the number of people who have been saved via OTHER people getting vaccinated. Know a cancer patient? Know a diabetic? Know a person with an organ transplant or auto immune disorder like Rheumatoid Arthritis? If you do, the fact that they are alive is solidly helped by OTHER people vaccinating.

Heck, I'd be more inclined to say we should pay for the wall if part of the 5.7B was going to fund mandatory Vax for EVERY person entering - that would likely save lives of many of those folks, and AMERICAN lives like those noted above.

Normally Meme's suck, but I saw a great one on this. It basically said if you dont want vax's, then please dont take that insulin/epi pen/antibiotic/ibuprofen/asprin/chemo/anticoagulant etc etc etc.

As meme's are designed, it overstates something and misses all of the nuance vital to understand big subjects... But the whack in the forehead is a good one.

From: Amoebus
13-Jan-19
HA - "Unfortunately, many are unable to discriminate between astronomy and astrology in discussions of this type."

Which one is the real one? I always get confused...

Phil - BS in astronomy, 1988.

And, I agree 100% with you. A lot of conspiracy theories are harmless but this one, if followed, harms/kills the children affected and has general public health implications (if diseases that were eradicated here get a foothold because of unimunized kids - see measles, whooping cough as examples).

From: jjs
13-Jan-19
How many that went through boot camp and got their shot with multiple vaccines in them. The only side effect was the shoulder was sore but the DI got that worked out very fast. Would like to see a genetic test what the gene link is to Autism and why some families have several of their children inflicted with it. There is one family in my area that has 3 kids with it, has to be a genetic factor that cause this.

13-Jan-19
Multiple children same family may or may not be genetic. It can also be environmental, specific to that home or habits. Science is still looking, I don't believe there is a consensus yet.

From: Owl
13-Jan-19
Bownarrow, I'm not casting aspersions, just offering a counterpoint to HA's rude stereotyping. BTW, the folks I know that are suspicious of vaccines are, by no means, "anti-science." Rather the contrary.

I agree with HfW - there is no satisfactory consensus for me. That stated, commonsense tells us no pharmaceutical is 100%. There are always side effects (often serious). So, while I believe vaccines have saved countless lives, it would not surprise me if they damaged a relatively small minority of kids.

13-Jan-19
That is a perfectly reasonable response from Owl.

From: HA/KS
13-Jan-19
The fact that there is zero mathematical correlation between vaccination and autism seems pretty factual to me.

From: Will
14-Jan-19
Hand clap and back pat for HA's last post.

If someone is nervous of the dosing volume, they can always ask the provider to spread the shots out and do them over a slightly longer period of time - not needed, but if it makes someone feel better it's doable.

15-Jan-19
I am an advocate of mandatory vaccination in order to attend public school.

15-Jan-19
This may surprise some but I am an advocate for vaccinations as well. However, I think every effort must be made to stop any threat to children from vax associated problems. Perhaps something as simple as spreading them out would help. Certainly taking out certain elements, like mercury, if it is still in some, must be considered.

16-Jan-19
It's not in any of the childhood vaccines besides some flu shots. And that link has been thoroughly disproved in multiple countries.

19-Jan-19

Spike Bull 's Link
" Vaccine-autism link: A rebuttal to the “There is no debate” narrative

by sattkisson on January 19, 2019 in News Leave a comment In the U.S., vaccines have reduced or eliminated many infectious diseases that once routinely killed or harmed many infants, children, and adults. Image from: Public Health Image Library

The following is a commentary written by:Alison Fujito

Some people are unable to see any perspective other than their own.

It’s already disturbing when they insist, over and over, that opposing facts don’t exist, as though repetition can make unpleasant truths disappear. But when they resort to misdirection, deliberate pejoratives, and outright lies, there is more going on than just myopia.

This past week, in response to Sharyl Attkisson’s op-ed two days prior, vaccine developer Dr. Peter Hotez wrote an op-ed piece in The Hill, claiming “there is no debate” in a manner eerily reminiscent of “the Party is always right” from George Orwell’s 1984.

The entire basis of Attkisson’s piece was the recent affidavit of Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, one of the country’s top pediatric neurologists, who served as the US government’s expert witness defending vaccines in the so-called “Vaccine Court.” In a stunning about-face, he testified that vaccines can cause autism in children with pre-existing mitochondrial dysfunction, and that he had communicated this to DOJ lawyers in 2007.

Other neurologists have observed the same link. Zimmerman himself claims that there was a cover-up. Yet, Hotez never directly addressed Zimmerman’s affidavit, or mentioned mitochondrial dysfunction or its relationship to autism and vaccines.

Instead, he repeated his version of “the Party is always right,” trotted out links to vaccine industry “astroturf” blogs, and presented irrelevant and flawed studies (this one actually gave the same vaccine/thimerosal dosage to both cases and controls, while this one was shown to be in error, and this one is debunked here ), none of which address the possibility of mitochondrial dysfunction.

As a scientist, Hotez should know that there’s no such thing as a “study showing there’s no link” to anything. A study may fail to show a link, but that doesn’t mean there’s no link. Surely we learned this from the tobacco industry’s “studies.”

Yet that’s exactly what Hotez did, claiming “clinical studies with over one million children enrolled, showing there’s no link between vaccines and autism,” [bolding mine] linking only a single, severely-flawed meta-analysis (with no children enrolled) of older studies that looked at either one ingredient (thimerosal) or one vaccine (MMR)

The conclusion of that meta-analysis is based in part on studies rejected by the Institute of Medicine as too flawed to be considered for their 2012 report on the vaccines/autism link. Regardless, none of those studies considered the possibility of mitochondrial dysfunction.

Despite Hotez’s reference to “at least 99 autism genes,” no specific genes are known to cause autism. In fact, the study he linked does not identify genes that cause autism, but merely notes some frequency of some de novo variants among some individuals with autism.

Dr. Hotez seems to forget that correlation does not equal causation.

He seems also to forget — or ignore — the fact that it has never been assessed whether vaccines, like some medications, may actually play a role in triggering genetic mutation. In fact, the package insert for every vaccine on the market clearly states“____ [this vaccine] has not been assessed for carcinogenicity, mutagenicity, or impairment of fertility,” or similar wording.

Hotez presents his book Vaccines Did Not Cause Rachel’s Autism as though the experience of one child can somehow refute reported experiences of thousands of others — children he never examined, whose medical records he never obtained, but whose parents he labels as “anti-vaccine.”

The use of pejoratives is disappointing even when wielded by preteens. Thank heavens the Toyota and Ford companies didn’t call their critics “anti-accelerator” when their cars had problems, sometimes fatal, with stuck accelerators; after a period of insisting there wasn’t a problem (and blaming the drivers), they issued recalls. They didn’t resort to name-calling.

But Hotez frequently does, even on Twitter. It’s shockingly bad behavior for a scientist to label parents for wanting to discuss their own children’s potential susceptibilities, or even for refusing vaccines.

The right to decline an unwanted medical intervention, free from coercion, is, in fact, codified in Article 6 (Consent) of UNESCO’s 2005 Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights:

Any preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic medical intervention is only to be carried out with the prior, free and informed consent of the person concerned, based on adequate information. The consent should, where appropriate, be express and may be withdrawn by the person concerned at any time and for any reason without disadvantage or prejudice. (bolding mine)

Please note section 3 of the same Article, which protects us all from the Orwellian principles Hotez seems to be espousing:

In no case should a collective community agreement or the consent of a community leader or other authority substitute for an individual’s informed consent.

We should all be troubled by scientists, doctors, or any industry insider so enraged by our reluctance to buy what they’re selling, they try to censor all conversation that disagrees with their sales pitch.

That’s not science, it’s not good medicine, and it’s deceptive."

(MANY good links cited within the text.)

From: DL
19-Jan-19

DL's Link
child with preventable whooping cough.

19-Jan-19

Spike Bull 's Link
Damn shame, DL. Should have been prevented. As should autism if/when it can be.

From: HA/KS
19-Jan-19
There is more correlation between the decline in spanking and the increase in autism than with any form of vaccination.

There is more correlation between the increased use of birth control pills and the increase in autism than between autism and any form of vaccination.

There is more correlation between the increase of single parent households and autism than between any form of vaccination and autism.

The debate should continue, but unless it is based on actual science, it is only harming people.

19-Jan-19
What science did you use when you correlated that I contribute to alcoholism and domestic violence by giving to the homeless? Oops, sorry guys, wrong thread :)

From: Tonybear61
23-Jan-19
Lack of vaccinations (e.g. measles, Rubella) can be multi-generational if you develop the disease.

From CDC: Congenital Rubella Syndrome (CRS)

Congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) is a condition that occurs in a developing baby in the womb whose mother is infected with the rubella virus. Pregnant women who contract rubella are at risk for miscarriage or stillbirth, and their developing babies are at risk for severe birth defects with devastating, lifelong consequences. CRS can affect almost everything in the developing baby’s body.

The most common birth defects from CRS can include: •Deafness •Cataracts •Heart defects •Intellectual disabilities •Liver and spleen damage •Low birth weight •Skin rash at birth

Less common complications from CRS can include: •Glaucoma •Brain damage [ um can you say Autism, Parkinson's or similar brain issues??] •Thyroid and other hormone problems •Inflammation of the lungs

Although specific symptoms can be treated, there is no cure for CRS. Since there is no cure, it is important for women to get vaccinated before they get pregnant.

Supposedly the disease was knocked out in the USA about 2004. Current cases are from un-vaccinated people who travel and/or bring it into the US from elsewhere..

24-Jan-19
I've done CPR on and had children (multiple) die in my hands from vaccine preventable infections.

From: Tonybear61
24-Jan-19
CRS can affect almost everything in the developing baby’s body. Yep that includes heart brain, lungs, important stuff like that.

Yet I still have to argue with folks who have this weird fear of vaccination, mostly the new generation in their late 20s early 30s. Reasoning they can't grasp the millions of lives they have saved...because they haven't lived though it. I have friends who were polio victims who lived, some classmates in grade school who did not.

From: Will
24-Jan-19

Will's embedded Photo
Will's embedded Photo
Saw this today on a friends Facebook feed and thought of this thread.

Just in case I have another kid, I'm going to drink a table spoon of roundup daily and aim for only foreign produce to minimize autism risk... (clearly, being hyper sarcastic and kidding).

From: HA/KS
24-Jan-19
Great find Will. One thing that should make any anti-vaxxer pause is the fact that vaccinations went on for decades before autism incidence really started to increase.

From: Will
24-Jan-19
Amen HA/KS!

From: Trial153
24-Jan-19
This forum is a train wreak.

From: HA/KS
30-Jan-19

HA/KS's embedded Photo
HA/KS's embedded Photo
There is currently a measles outbreak in WA/OR in an area where there are a lot of unvaccinated children. Now one family is quarantined in HI because they flew there with exposed children who then came down with measles.

30-Jan-19
Before MMR: 3000 measles deaths/yr from encephalitis/meningitis. The fear of these diseases has been erased from our collective societal conscious because they've been gone for so long. The heroes who developed these vaccines must be rolling in their graves, along with the mothers and fathers of the children who died from the diseases before the vaccines were developed.

I've heard the mourns of the parents who wept over their child's corpse who'd just died from a vaccine preventable death. I've done CPR on these kids in the ER more than once. It is maddening.

From: Glunt@work
30-Jan-19
The organic food chart reminded me of a story. I know a gal who runs the crop dusting association in my state. She told me a story of a guy spraying Roundup who caught a wing tip and crashed, ending up almost upside down. He was fine but the cockpit filled up with Roundup from I believe a belly tank until he was almost completely submerged before he was able to get something open and get out.

It had been a decade or so since it happened and no bad effects yet. I guess he was pretty scared at the time about soaking in that stuff but no one had an answer as to what might happen if anything.

From: Brotsky
30-Jan-19

Brotsky's embedded Photo
Brotsky's embedded Photo

30-Jan-19
It wasn't really that long ago that about 1/3 of all children died long before reaching adulthood from things that are totally preventable today.

From: slade
30-Jan-19

slade's Link
16 years ago, a doctor published a study. It was completely made up, and it made us all sicker.

From: HA/KS
30-Jan-19
In Australia, they recently discovered a connection between one of the vaccines and Type 1 Diabetes. Children who had received the vaccine appeared to have a lower rate of Type 1.

There is much to be learned about this but it might be the beginning of prevention of this terrible disease with a childhood vaccination.

From: HA/KS
01-Feb-19

HA/KS's embedded Photo
HA/KS's embedded Photo

From: Will
01-Feb-19
HA, that's friggin radical man... Cool. So yeah, Ill leave the bumps on a log and you leave the measles, awesome man, right? :)

Hilarious (in a horrible sort of way)!

From: HA/KS
09-Feb-19

HA/KS's Link
"Former anti-vaxxers now seek out measles vaccine after outbreak"

From: Amoebus
10-Feb-19

Amoebus's Link
Good first hand account from a doctor.

From: slade
10-Feb-19
Ground zero: Clark County is across the river from Portlandia, OR. This could get out of hand real quick.

From: HA/KS
11-Feb-19

HA/KS's Link
I missed this at the time, but apparently the Russians have been behind spreading both the anti Vax and the anti GMO messages. They are probably also the ones keeping the Glyphosate opponents enraged.

From: Tonybear61
11-Feb-19
My mother reminded me today how we almost lost my sister to measles back in the late 50s. Her daughter is one of the idiots who believes in the autism, vaccine correlation theory. Fortunately for her she isn't married or has kids yet....

By the way Mom is almost 95, saw her family survive the Great Depression, WWII, assassination of a president, the Cold war and now we have fight to stop Socialism, again. In her words, the politicians today have no common sense.

From: Amoebus
12-Feb-19
Tony's message reminded me that I worked with a guy who got polio in the mid 1960s. I never asked him why the family didn't get him vaccinated (vaccine started in 1961). He should go on a national tour touting the benefits of vaccination.

From: Annony Mouse
12-Feb-19
We are seeing diseases that have almost been eradicated until the anti-vaxers and open borders proREgressives have gained stay and promoted by the media.

Stop Medieval Diseases With a Medieval Wall

The media recently reported that Los Angeles County’s ongoing typhus epidemic had infected Deputy City Attorney Liz Greenwood.

"Who gets typhus? It's a medieval disease that's caused by trash,” she wondered.

Greenwood is partially correct. The typhus outbreak, like the hepatitis outbreak, was directly caused by social justice policies that legalized public vagrancy, and leaving trash and human waste on sidewalks. The piles of trash, human waste and people combine to create horrifying diseased conditions. Before Greenwood, many Los Angeles patients who had been diagnosed with typhus were indeed homeless.

"There are rats in City Hall and City Hall East," she complained. "There are enormous rats and their tails are as long as their bodies."

The rats are a problem, but the fleas that carry the disease that Greenwood has can live on a variety of animals, including stray cats and possums. That’s why the typhus outbreak isn’t just happening in Skid Row, but has spread to Long Beach and Pasadena. And while the homeless encampments act as incubators for the disease, it’s not the only social justice policy spreading disease across America.

Or at least in California and Texas.

continued at link

From: KSflatlander
18-Feb-19

KSflatlander's Link
HA/KS- It seems like there is another famous person who spreads conspiracies about vaccines.

"In the United States, that anti-vaccine resurgence has been amplified by actors Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy -- who said they believed vaccines could have contributed to McCarthy's son's autism -- and high-profile celebrities such as then-real estate mogul and reality TV star, Donald Trump.

In 2012, Trump, weighed in on vaccines on Twitter, saying: "Massive combined inoculations to small children is the cause for big increase in autism...."

Not good!

From: Will
19-Feb-19

Will's Link
KS - when one doesn't believe in science... one must stay consistent :) (easy fellas, easy... just dropping a funny there)

IFL is not the most hardcore of scientific lit sites, it's definitely a pop science site, though often has neat info. This may not be the end all be all of the current Measles outbreak, but it's interesting to consider. https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/measles-outbreak-traced-to-father-who-admits-not-vaccinating-kids-due-to-autism-concerns/

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