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Wolves. The Real Story
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Contributors to this thread:
Ambush 03-Feb-19
Thumper 03-Feb-19
HA/KS 03-Feb-19
NvaGvUp 04-Feb-19
Shuteye 05-Feb-19
bowbender77 05-Feb-19
KSflatlander 05-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 05-Feb-19
Shuteye 06-Feb-19
Pig Doc 06-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 06-Feb-19
Glunt@work 06-Feb-19
Shuteye 06-Feb-19
Pig Doc 06-Feb-19
Joey Ward 06-Feb-19
Pig Doc 06-Feb-19
Treeline 06-Feb-19
TD 06-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 06-Feb-19
bowbender77 06-Feb-19
Pig Doc 06-Feb-19
Pig Doc 06-Feb-19
bowbender77 06-Feb-19
Pig Doc 06-Feb-19
bowbender77 06-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 06-Feb-19
Pig Doc 06-Feb-19
bowbender77 06-Feb-19
Jim Moore 06-Feb-19
Glunt@work 06-Feb-19
orionsbrother 06-Feb-19
TD 06-Feb-19
orionsbrother 06-Feb-19
orionsbrother 06-Feb-19
Treeline 06-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 06-Feb-19
Treeline 06-Feb-19
bowbender77 06-Feb-19
orionsbrother 06-Feb-19
Shuteye 06-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 07-Feb-19
Bowfreak 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
Glunt@work 07-Feb-19
Treeline 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
Glunt@work 07-Feb-19
Glunt@work 07-Feb-19
Bowfreak 07-Feb-19
Treeline 07-Feb-19
Bowfreak 07-Feb-19
Amoebus 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
Pig Doc 07-Feb-19
Bowfreak 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
Bowfreak 07-Feb-19
Amoebus 07-Feb-19
Pig Doc 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
Bowfreak 07-Feb-19
TD 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 07-Feb-19
Pig Doc 07-Feb-19
Bowfreak 07-Feb-19
Pig Doc 07-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 07-Feb-19
Zbone 07-Feb-19
TD 07-Feb-19
TD 07-Feb-19
TD 07-Feb-19
TD 07-Feb-19
KSflatlander 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
HA/KS 07-Feb-19
Pig Doc 07-Feb-19
Pig Doc 07-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 07-Feb-19
Treeline 07-Feb-19
KSflatlander 07-Feb-19
Michael 07-Feb-19
Michael 07-Feb-19
IdyllwildArcher 07-Feb-19
Michael 07-Feb-19
Michael 07-Feb-19
orionsbrother 07-Feb-19
Glunt@work 07-Feb-19
TD 08-Feb-19
Grey Ghost 08-Feb-19
Pig Doc 08-Feb-19
TD 08-Feb-19
bowbender77 08-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 08-Feb-19
Shuteye 09-Feb-19
Shuteye 12-Feb-19
HedgeHunter 12-Feb-19
From: Ambush
03-Feb-19
This is a long and bit dry reading about wolf behavior. It was presented during Expert Witness testimony concerning the predatory attack and death of a young man in Northern Saskatchewan. In about an hour, you'll know a lot of facts about wolves and the inevitable consequence of unfettered reintroduction and protection.

http://www.vargfakta.se/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Geist-when-do-wolves-become-dangerous-to-humans-pt-1.pdf

From: Thumper
03-Feb-19
I always thought it was nothing more than an anti-hunting tool so hunters wouldn't have to be used to manage over populations in our federal parks.

From: HA/KS
03-Feb-19
Thumper is correct.

From: NvaGvUp
04-Feb-19
I don't know if that is the reason it got started, but opposition to delisting is absolutely an anti-hunter tool.

From: Shuteye
05-Feb-19
I saw a documentary on wolves in Yellow stone. They said elk had eaten all the grass and trees and really changing things. They said the beavers were all gone from their normal habitat and ducks that used the beaver ponds were gone. Since they introduced wolves the elk population has been cut down and trees and grass are now growing where they used to grow, years ago. They showed beavers building dams and the fish, ducks and raccoons loved it. They said they now have a healthy elk population. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I have a cousin that lives near Yellowstone and she said during the rut you have to be real careful of the bull elk. They would walk right up to people in the park and get mean. She said some people are stupid and try to get real close pictures of elk and bears. Moose won't put up with a lot of that either.

From: bowbender77
05-Feb-19
Can you say JUNK SCIENCE. JUNK SCIENCE is the cancer of conservation.

From: KSflatlander
05-Feb-19
“Kill’m all” crowd is also the cancer of conservation.

From: HedgeHunter
05-Feb-19
You believe that crap on elk?

Wolves were put back into the west by Subaru Hempheads to kill game animals in the guise of habitat equalization!

Next phase is to remove human harvest influence.

No need for hunters hunters, hunting or guns n bows.

Oh, All the non hunting in western Europe and the high Boar populations have hit critical mass. The wild boar have developed a new virus or disease. The Germans have found it. So much for taking the human outta the food chain. Now they want folks to kill them.

Alas noone has permits for guns! Poor Socialists have not only ruined their Gvts and lives. They have destroyed the very thing they claim to love. Freaking Green Woodboogers.

HH~

From: Shuteye
06-Feb-19
When I was a pre teen, my dad owned a couple hundred acres next to a state game reserve. There was no hunting allowed. I knew the game wardens and they would come out there in the winter with boxes of hot dogs laced with strychnine. They would put the hot dogs all around the reserve to kill foxes. They no longer do that and the reserve is now a public hunting area.

From: Pig Doc
06-Feb-19
We have co-existed with wolves here in MN for all of recorded history. Same can be said for Alaska and most of Canada. These wolves were here long before Subarus and hemp heads were here and Native Americans competed successfully against them for wild game and many tribes revered them. I'm in favor of de-listing and wolf hunting but eradication of a native species makes no sense.

From: HedgeHunter
06-Feb-19
There are almost zero native non crossed wolves in lower 48.

All are hybidized with northern AK or Cunnickistani Wolves.

From: Glunt@work
06-Feb-19
I can live with a small population of wolves in the west. Just wish they would have re-established the Bison first which was a huge prey base for them.

From: Shuteye
06-Feb-19
Get some of those guys from Mongolia, with Golden Eagles, to take care of the problem.

From: Pig Doc
06-Feb-19
"There are almost zero native non crossed wolves in lower 48." "All are hybidized with northern AK or Cunnickistani Wolves."

MN is the only state in the contiguous US that has always held a viable gray wolf population. There is no evidence of AK wolf hybridization in MN gray wolves. What is Cunnickistani? I can find no reference on the internet. If you have some proof of AK or Cunnickistani hybridization in MN wolves I would like to see it.

From: Joey Ward
06-Feb-19
Cunnickistani = Canadian

From: Pig Doc
06-Feb-19

Pig Doc's Link
Thanks Joey. And here I thought it was some sort of technical term.

Well HH, since MN and Canada border each other, and wolves don't know where the border is, and if they did would not be afraid to cross it, I would agree MN and eastern Canadian wolves share genetic material. Not sure what this has to do with anything as wolves have been in MN and Canada forever. MN wolves are not hybridized with AK wolves and not hybridized with "Cannuckian" wolves as they are one and the same.

If anyone is interested in learning about the taxonomy of MN wolves, the link takes you to a paper by David Mech, a world renowned wolf researcher from MN.

From: Treeline
06-Feb-19
Wish they’d reestablished wolves on the eastern seaboard first. Central Park would have been a great start...

From: TD
06-Feb-19
Hows the moose doing in MN? Elk herds? Wolves are heck on herd recovery..... they hunt year round (unlike bears who are hard on calving in the spring) and not only killing game (they may or may not eat) they harass game in the depths of winter when they can least afford to expend the energy. Died because of wolves.... just not any tooth marks on them.....

In the west they were eradicated for a reason. The success story with elk, moose, etc. in the west the last 50+ years was possible due to few to no wolves. They are totally unnecessary to healthy successful wildlife management. That is a fact, proven for a century or so. They are not "needed", not in any way shape or form.

They were dumped on people who overwhelmingly did not want them, by people who did not have to live nor work around them. Then screwed by a government and yet more people who don't have to deal with them when they reneged on the agreed upon levels for delisting.

I get they are here to stay now. It's still a shame those who have to live with them day to day and feel their effect are now forced to. When they never had to prior, for generations. It was forced on them, dumped in their lap. Forced on them by people with no skin in the game.

ID trying to get a handhold on them with a bounty offered now. WY stuck to their guns and have the best management by far...... off their reservation they are coyotes. No season. No tags. No limit. A dead wolf is a good wolf.... won't kill your calves, your hounds, or your elk and moose....

A good article linked above.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Feb-19
Wolves have been delisted in several states, and can be hunted or trapped, subject to those state's game laws. In 85% of Wyoming they are considered vermin and can be shot on sight without a license any time of the year, for example.

So, Im not sure where this "unfettered reintroduction and protection" is happening, exactly.

Matt

From: bowbender77
06-Feb-19
TD X2

From: Pig Doc
06-Feb-19
How are your moose and elk doing in Hawaii? Nothing like a lecture on moose and elk from someone in a grass skirt. Wolves have been a part of the ecosystem here for centuries and we are coexisting just fine. Again, I believe and delisting and hunting wolves but eradicating a native species for the benefit of ranchers and hunters is bullcrap. The wolves were here long before the cattle.

From: Pig Doc
06-Feb-19
No wolves in AZ. Funny how all the experts here are from states with no wolves.

From: bowbender77
06-Feb-19
No wolfs in Arizona your A$$.

From: Pig Doc
06-Feb-19
OK, they were reintroduced 40 years ago and now there are maybe 100 wolves in AZ. And that's a big deal?

From: bowbender77
06-Feb-19
Pig Doc: It's a big deal if you live in Arizona and you care about the American Conservation Model that is under attack by the greens, wolfies and anti hunters. But its not a big deal if you live in MN and don't have to pay the price or give a crap, or your a Wolf lover.

From: HedgeHunter
06-Feb-19
Point is they were native.

What they have now are Wolves with Artic and far North DNA.

MN has had wolves always, true.

I hunt with my Ranger bud from 1989 , he a Minn native and says they are worse than ever.

Around the YS park Wolves are eating thru the herds and killing to show pups how to kill.

The big cats are eating up the Custer State Park elk herd in SD. They finally open it ip to running hounds. Hope the state does in Black hills as well.

Now imagine what Wolves are doing?

The left has been selling The Wolf as the emblem of the wild!

Look at all the commercials!! Not a coincidence. Most us hunters who hunt tje west and land owners, ranchers now the deal.

The wolf has opened the door to eliminate the human hunter in game managment. This is undisputed.

If your a Wolf bumper sticker guy, out west they’ll know yer a wood boogin tree monkey leftist.

HH~

From: Pig Doc
06-Feb-19
HH, can you read? Twice I have posted that I'm for delisting and hunting of wolves, not eradication. I'm not for idiots that say "the only good wolf is a dead wolf".

bb77, it sounds like you have an activist problem, not a wolf problem.

From: bowbender77
06-Feb-19
Pig Doc: "Little Red Ridinghood Lied " rite? I get it. I should know better than to try and reason with a person that has there foot in there mouth. After all, you are the wolf expert.

From: Jim Moore
06-Feb-19
Some "very large coyotes" have been seen around the northern part of my state, or so some have said. I've heard tell the F&G are maintaining that these large dogs are nothing but "very large coyotes" and until such time, should stay that way.

From: Glunt@work
06-Feb-19
If AZ wolves eat elk like Yellowstone wolves, 100 is a big deal. That would be 2000 elk a year in a place where the total human take for all methods is around 9000. It's probably as big or bigger than the total archery take.

06-Feb-19
“So, Im not sure where this "unfettered reintroduction and protection" is happening, exactly.”

Matt - Look at Wisconsin.

From: TD
06-Feb-19
Nope no wolves in HI. But I have rancher friends in ID and WY who have to deal with them. Grew up with ranchers, moved to HI when I was 22..... I know how hard they work and the pride they take in a life their great or great great grandfather helped build. A guy I know in ID lost 3 of his 5 cat hounds to wolves in one trip. He won't take them out anymore. Outfitters closed up outside Yellowstone as they removed the tags for the unit..... not enough elk. Ranchers losing $800-1000+ calves that are net profit..... like being robbed at gunpoint. And the "wolf fund" won't pay off because...... there were no witnesses wolves actually killed it..... eaten by wolves doesn't count. It's rare when they do pay. Most don't even bother these days.

Wolves are no more wild or natural than termites and cockroaches in your home. If you don't have to live with them..... no big deal. If you have them and want to get rid of them..... well, gosh, ya know they are wild and part of nature and all..... just live with them.... no big deal really....

06-Feb-19

orionsbrother's embedded Photo
orionsbrother's embedded Photo
This is a picture of Flag Rd in Bayfield County. The DNR listed the Flag River Pack at five wolves.

I’m not a biologist, but feel pretty confident that they’re off by a bit.

06-Feb-19
When hunting bear in MB, it is not unusual for someone to see a wolf. We also see deer, and the outfitters have deer hunts for sale.

I am asking as I reside in a no bear state. They seem to coexist with nature up there, and enough game species survive to support recreational hunting.

06-Feb-19

orionsbrother's Link
Page seven shows the 2010-2011 estimate of the Flag River Pack at four.

From: Treeline
06-Feb-19
Why TD, you must be mistaken!

Wolves have been great for the economy and the environment wherever they have graced us with their presence!

Just look at the pro-wolf websites and they can tell you how beneficial the wolves have been to the economies of Wyoming and Montana! They have brought in huge amounts of money don’t you know!

And there are even beavers and willows and tweety birds that are coming back in Yellowstone NP since the wolves have reduced the overpopulation of elk and moose!

How can anyone argue with those facts?

Total BS. The problem is that they use this crap to market the politicians and nonhunting public to the point that they believe this s#!t!

The goal is to end hunting. Can’t be taking food from the poor wolves! If you can’t hunt, you don’t need a gun. If you don’t need guns, they should all be illegal. With that goal in mind, I am all in favor of total eradication of all of them. After they have been fed all the feral horses.

From: Grey Ghost
06-Feb-19
The total estimated wolf population of Wyoming was 380 in 2017 when their wolves were delisted. IIRC, they issued 2500 wolf tags that year in only about 15% of their state. The other 85% of Wyoming was shoot on site, with no tag or season restrictions. 40-something were killed by hunters, another 30-something were killed otherwise.

Many Colorado hunters were outraged when wolves were reintroduce toYellowstone. They were convinced they'd migrate to CO and devastate our elk, moose, and deer herds. We've had maybe 3 confirmed sightings in the last decade.

Much to do about nothing.

Matt

From: Treeline
06-Feb-19
GG, I have certainly seen more than 3 in NW CO. One pack of 6 last winter. Well, was 6...

Luckily, the local folks up here have been able to minimize the impacts fairly successfully so far.

Unfortunately, the current political climate will likely ensure wolves being dumped in droves. Just wish they would dump them all in downtown Denver and Boulder so the bastards that want them can have them! We sure as Hell don’t!

From: bowbender77
06-Feb-19
GG : Twenty some years back there were nearly no coyotes on the east coast of the US but today they are common. If you think that wolfs wont spread there range with all the protections that are in place under Federal law than you are more than naive.

06-Feb-19
https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/Wildlifehabitat/wolf/documents/2018WolfCountDetails.pdf

Page three. Latest DNR estimate is that the Flag River Pack consists of two wolves.

Look at the picture Matt. Do you believe that those tracks were made by 2-5 wolves?

From: Shuteye
06-Feb-19
We didn't have coyotes but in the past few years some have come around. My wife spotted on in our garden last year and I see their tracks in the snow once in a while. I see red foxes all the time and rarely a grey fox. The law says we can kill coyotes anytime, day or night but there is a season on Foxes.

From: HedgeHunter
07-Feb-19
Like pic dic so gracefully opined.

Yep, the big problem is wolf terders luving in Detroit, NYC, Hartford, Boston, etc. they got no skin in wolves running free eating a mans livelyhood.

Subaru suckin earth muffins are the problem no doubt.

Been round and round on LW bout these dogs.

TD yer on it as usual Braddah. We must be in the same Hui.

HH~

From: Bowfreak
07-Feb-19
Matt,

You don't really believe there are only 370 wolves in WY do you? There are also just 700 grizzlies in the GYE too.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19
I believe official estimates from game managers more than some nobody on an Internet forum.

Look, I don't think reintroduction was necesssary or well advised, but I don't think it's nearly the problem some of you make it out to be. If anything, reintroduction has provided another species to hunt in the states that have delisted them.

Matt

From: Glunt@work
07-Feb-19
I think it is a big deal even at 370.

370 wolves X 20 elk per year = 7,400 elk eaten per year

Total archery take in Wyoming for 2017 is less than 3,000

From: Treeline
07-Feb-19
GG, Wyoming G&F’s statement says “at least 347” and implies a much higher population.

They also stated that 2017 marked the 16th year in a row that the wolf population in Wyoming was above the USFW planned recovery objectives.

WY G&F also estimates that the wolf population has continued to increase since hunting was allowed to resume.

Still 100% in favor of eradicating all wolves.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19
From the Wyoming harvest reports for 2017:

1. Total elk licenses sold = 70, 593

2. Total elk harvested by hunters = 24, 535 or a 34.7% success rate

3. Total wolf licenses sold = 2527

4. Total number of wolves killed by hunters = 44 or a 1.7% success rate.

Either wolf hunters in Wyoming suck, or there isn't nearly as many wolves as some of you 'experts' think.

Matt

From: Glunt@work
07-Feb-19
I supported the original intro numbers of 100 wolves in WY. When they tripled the number after it started and seeing how terrible the process went with law suits and politics, I won't support introduction again, anywhere.

From: Glunt@work
07-Feb-19
Total wolf take allowed in the license areas is capped at 58. No way success rates can get much higher except selling less licenses.

From: Bowfreak
07-Feb-19
Matt....you are the type that Wyoming ranchers love. You know more than they do about their ground and the problems they have with wolves. I wonder what the ranchers near Bondurant think about wolves? There is a pack there that killed 19 elk in one night a few years ago.

I don't think anyone should be for eradicating them, but their numbers, like grizzlies, are way too high.

From: Treeline
07-Feb-19
Give them an inch and they will take a mile, Bowfreak.

Or several thousand square miles in this scenario...

From: Bowfreak
07-Feb-19
"Give them an inch and they will take a mile"

No doubt. The horse is already out of the barn though. Hunters were screwed before we even knew it when they reintroduced these things.

From: Amoebus
07-Feb-19

Amoebus's Link
Pig - time to sell that cabin near Ely. HH's buddy reports they are worse than ever.

I hunt around 50 miles from Ely and the hunting this year was as good as we have seen in the last 5 years. Plenty of wolves. Plenty of deer - when we have decent winters. When there are 2-3 harsh winters, then the deer go down. Pattern repeat. I grew up in N MN and had an established pack that would regularly frequent the Aitkin <-> Grand Rapids woods where we hunted.

Just a note on counting wolves. You cannot. At least, you cannot count every animal like some of you think the state wildlife agencies should. Too much land, too many wolves and too few dollars. If you want all of the DNRs monies to go to counting wolves, other things will suffer. Here is a link to how MN counts wolves each year:

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/wolves/2018/survey-wolf.pdf

I don't have any idea if other states have this robust of a methodology - MN has been doing this for a long time compared to the recent arrivals.

In MN, the count is for a mid-winter number of wolves. This is before pups are hatched. If the count is 2500 (typical MN), then it is probably 4-5000 come spring. If it is a tough year, then more than 2500 will die (from a lot of reasons - see Mech). If there are plenty of deer and other prey, then less than 2500 will die. Repeat.

I have to get back to my lunch elk burger (shot in one of the common zones that people cite as the wolves having taken over). Later, I am going to make some more brats/breakfast sausage with my deer shot in the barrens of N MN.

Good hunting all.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19
"Matt....you are the type that Wyoming ranchers love. You know more than they do about their ground and the problems they have with wolves."

Do you own any acreage in the west? If so, how much? Do you manage any wildlife on the acreage you own? My answers to those questions are 'yes', '70 acres', and 'plenty', respectively. How about you?

Matt

From: Pig Doc
07-Feb-19
Yeah Amoebus, apparently the 100 wolves in AZ and handful in CO do more damage than the 3,000+ in MN. I have lived and hunted in wolf country most of my life and have no problem finding and killing deer. I also elk hunt in western states and have no problem killing elk. Maybe us MN guys are just better hunters. Also clear where the best whiners come from. I can't speak for the entitled western ranchers, but the vast majority of hunters, ranchers and miners I interact with in MN want wolves controlled but not eradicated. Wolves are part of what makes Northern MN wild.

From: Bowfreak
07-Feb-19
So... Minnesota has nearly 400 wolf packs, but Wyoming has a total population of less than 400 wolves. Hmmm.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19

Grey Ghost's Link
In 2018 Wyoming elk numbers were 31% higher than Wyoming Game and Fish Department objectives....despite the big bad wolf.

Matt

From: Bowfreak
07-Feb-19
"Do you own any acreage in the west? If so, how much? Do you manage any wildlife on the acreage you own? My answers to those questions are 'yes', '70 acres', and 'plenty', respectively. How about you?"

I assume you own your land in Colorado and your wolf problem is no worse than mine in KY.

From: Amoebus
07-Feb-19
"Maybe us MN guys are just better hunters."

Not me, but I do pick areas that are known for wolves. Hunters (like deer) are a skitterish bunch. Start a rumor that all the deer/elk are dead and it will send us scurrying like cockroaches when the lights come on.

My hunting partner for elk reported that, in its heyday, the road he puts his tent on had 50 camps in 15-20 miles. The last 2 years, we saw a total of 0 and 1 other camp. I will gladly see fewer elk/deer if it means I see fewer hunters (although in this case we see more elk and no hunters). Every forum I post on gets the message that wolves have completely destroyed that unit.

From: Pig Doc
07-Feb-19

Pig Doc's embedded Photo
Pig Doc's embedded Photo
It's estimated there are over 450 wolf packs in MN. Here are 6 within 50 miles of my cabin.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19
"I assume you own your land in Colorado, and your wolf problem is no worse than mine in KY."

Nice dodge. How many acres do you own in KY? And what makes you more of an authority on Wyoming's wolves than their own Game and Fish Department?

Matt

From: Bowfreak
07-Feb-19
Me dodging? I never claimed my 70 acres in Colorado somehow gave me omnipotence on any western land issue. Issues like wolves that you don't deal with on your 70 acres. Just like I don't deal with them on the 2 acre lot for my home. I do however have a really good friend who is a rancher in Wyoming and I suspect knowing him and listening to his first hand accounts provide more real time information than you have through your 70 acres of ground.

I don't believe Wyoming has less than 400 wolves, just like I don't believe that the GYE grizzly population is 700. I also believe that Wyoming Fish and Game is as competent as any agency in the country. Their competence doesn't keep them from being subject to political BS though.

As far as owning land in KY? I have no need for hunting land. I have access to hunt numerous private properties and have more land to hunt than I could ever possibly hunt.

From: TD
07-Feb-19
GG, so when they intro wolves to CO..... how many pairs on that land are your willing to donate to their cause? Personally I'd be shooting every big yote I saw. Yotes are about the only thing I'd pick up a rifle for. But I'd do it in a second.

Pig Doc..... you might want to talk to those ranchers that own where you're elk hunting and ask them what they think about the wolves. Which I'm assuming are actually there where you hunt?

I've done DIY in ID a half dozen times. One trip a few years ago in Lolo, ground zero..... I think we saw 3 elk.... total. Never heard a bugle. Talking with friends they have come back a little.... but nowhere NEAR what it used to be. Never killed a monster in ID with the bow.... but have 3 raghorns to show for it. Places in ID you talk wolf with the locals, I mean the people who live and work there FULL TIME..... you'll get an ear full..... might want to tell em how you "live with the wolves" in MN...... I'm sure they'd appreciate it....

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19
"I don't believe Wyoming has less than 400 wolves,..."

Yet, you believe the statistics about how many elk are killed by wolves from the same game managers. I see.

My modest ranch is a frequent home to deer, antelope, turkeys, and coyotes, as well as an assortment of small game. Less frequently I have elk, bears, and mountain lions on my property. Care to guess which species has flourished the most? If you guessed turkeys, you'd be correct, despite the fact they are the easiest targets for predators. Does that make me an expert in game management in Wyoming? Hell no. But, I do have some first hand knowledge about the topic.

So you have a rancher friend in Wyoming, eh? Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I have several, and I spend outdoor time in Wyoming every year. None of the ranchers I know have ever had any problems with wolves. Elk, on the other hand, are a constant headache for a few of them.

The bottom line is, neither of us are experts on wolves in Wyoming, and we both agree that Wyoming's Fish and Game is among the best. So, who are we to dispute the information they provide us?

Matt

From: HedgeHunter
07-Feb-19
I dint need to be an expert. Seen hundreds of dead sheep.

Hunted hundreds of different drainages in three great elk states with wolves. If a pack comes thru you’ll see no elk. They git quick.

As to killing big Bulls. sure i have in spots with Wolves bit Not when they are hunting there and howling.

Subaru-berbs of Denver aint elk country.

Hunted good elk land 5 seasons ago. Wolves vame thru outta park in fall killed several hunnerd sheep came back thru in fall and killed a shit pile more.

If you have not hunted cattle sheep and elk country and yer wondering why there are 4 whlrs, trailer, dogs out with sheep flocks 24/7 ? Not because they love sheep dogs so much.

One pack cam kill 500 sheep un attended in a week.

All these Subaru driving tree leeches supporting the Wolf know exactly what they doing. Wolf before man or beast to put ot simply.

HH~

From: Pig Doc
07-Feb-19
"Pig Doc..... you might want to talk to those ranchers that own where you're elk hunting and ask them what they think about the wolves. Which I'm assuming are actually there where you hunt?"

I hunt public land for elk. Not into paying whiny ranchers thousands of dollars to hunt "their elk" and I really don't give a shit what they think about wolves.

From: Bowfreak
07-Feb-19
"Yet, you believe the statistics about how many elk are killed by wolves from the same game managers. I see. "

I have no idea of what statistics you are talking about. I might agree with them or disagree with them if I knew what they were.

I really have no idea why we are talking about the game on your ranch? It has nothing to do with this conversation. My whole perspective on this discussion was that ranchers would disagree with wolves NOT being a problem. I never said anything about elk. Elk cause ranchers a whole different set of issues, but to my knowledge they don't kill cattle. I can promise one thing ranchers in western Wyoming are definitely not on the forefront begging for the wolf or grizzly to have ESA protection.

From: Pig Doc
07-Feb-19

Pig Doc's Link
"I've done DIY in ID a half dozen times. One trip a few years ago in Lolo, ground zero..... I think we saw 3 elk.... total. Never heard a bugle. Talking with friends they have come back a little.... but nowhere NEAR what it used to be. "

According to this link from Idaho Rangeland Resource Commission, elk harvests in ID the past 3 years are record high. Maybe you just suck at hunting elk. Looks like others are doing pretty well despite the wolves.

07-Feb-19
Chad,

I came to the same conclusion.

From: HedgeHunter
07-Feb-19
Funny

I hunt lots of working Ranches for a tiny Tresspass fee. All hard workin folk. Come to think of it, i never met a whiny ranch hand , working owner or ramrod.

I have not seen a 300 bull in Lolo in several years on Public and certianly not making noise!

Sounds like your a Minn wolf lover who knows zip about open country Wolves.

HH~

From: Zbone
07-Feb-19

Zbone's Link
Gotta know the boundries...

" Hunter convicted of illegal wolf kill in Grand Teton National Park"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/hunter-convicted-of-illegal-wolf-kill-in-grand-teton-national-park/ar-BBTiSa8?ocid=spartandhp

From: TD
07-Feb-19

TD's Link
Not all of ID has wolves..... less than half of it if I recall. Lots of elk where there are no wolves. Just me, but I'd look at where there are a bunch of wolves to gauge the effect of wolves...... Lolo is ground central and the herd was down to less than 10% of what it was. The wildlife managers themselves pressed for action..... aerial shooting of wolves was needed for the elk herds to recover. This from the state wildlife managers.

I know if it doesn't effect some..... they could give a chit. That it effects others, that actually have to live with it..... still don't give a chit. I get it. It's clearly been SOP. If you personally raised range cattle or sheep for your living and were losing thousands due to wolves..... my guess is war would be declared and wolves in the area eliminated. The wolf hugging or eating the losses "for a good cause" would be non-existent.

Look where they wolves are, or have been, to see the effect, not some deflecting with some unrelated statewide numbers. Better yet talk to folks that have lost hounds or cattle, livestock. They will give you the real picture. If you care, which I won't be holding my breath.

From: TD
07-Feb-19

TD's Link
With some wolf management.... they are making a slow comeback, now up to near 2,000 where at one time they were 16,000, low I think was 750.

Link to ID dept of fish and game press release, 2018. They state expressly the issue is with wolves. And the management seems to be having the desired effect. They need more.

Also ID ranchers and others have formed an association and implemented a wolf bounty, plus get to keep the valuable fur. Those with the right fur bearer licenses are not limited as those buying tags. And have few limits on method of take.

From: TD
07-Feb-19

TD's Link
Sorry, link didn't seem to work? Try this again.....

From: TD
07-Feb-19

TD's embedded Photo
TD's embedded Photo
Wolves have their uses though......

I plan on taking a couple or three someday and have a lady that will make me a wolfskin coat..... plan on wearing it through an airport or something when visiting the mainland in the winter.....

cuz I could give a chit.....

From: KSflatlander
07-Feb-19
I have to agree with Pig Doc. There is room for hunters and wolves.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19
Going with the Chad, Frank, and Ryan on this one. Being the top predator on the food chain means we should manage for ALL wildlife, not just the ones we like to hunt and eat.

Matt

From: HA/KS
07-Feb-19
I agree. 1 hunter, 1 wolf, one pelt.

From: Pig Doc
07-Feb-19
"Sounds like your a Minn wolf lover who knows zip about open country Wolves."

Coming from a blowhard from TN with a fake registration and zero experience with wild wolves. I will give you the credibility you deserve - zero.

I hope to kill a wolf one day too TD. Legally, and unlike you, not because I hate them but because they are arguably the most intelligent wild animal in NA. I have applied for every wolf hunt MN has had and hope they are delisted so we can hunt them again soon. Just sick of people that are too narrow minded to understand wolves are a part of the wilderness and don't need to be eradicated.

From: Pig Doc
07-Feb-19
"I plan on taking a couple or three someday and have a lady that will make me a wolfskin coat..... plan on wearing it through an airport or something when visiting the mainland in the winter....."

Would look good with your grass skirt.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Feb-19
"Would look good with your grass skirt."

I had to laugh at that one.

;-)

Matt

07-Feb-19
I have tons of coyote on my farm. And tons of deer as well. I recognize it is not the same, but it does provide a similar scenario of prey animals surviving just fine.

When Lewis and Clark undertook their expedition wolves were in abundance, yet they had little difficulty in finding game.

Nothing wrong with people who love wolves as long as they are willing to accept balance. Again, great presentation I attended this past week about environmentalism and conservation and how we have common goals. It was recorded, I will see if I can gain permission to post it.

From: Treeline
07-Feb-19
If they were completely extinct, world wide, I would not miss them.

From: KSflatlander
07-Feb-19
I think treeline summed up perfectly the difference between killers and hunters/outdoorsmen/conservationist.

From: Michael
07-Feb-19
“Either wolf hunters in Wyoming suck, or there isn't nearly as many wolves as some of you 'experts' think.”

Matt,

The quota was something like 58 for 2017. The only zones that had tags left after December were 6,7 and 8 Jackson Hole Valley. Zone 4 was only open for 4 days. Zone 11 was only open for 1 day before it was filled. So to use a total tag numbers sold argument for how many wolves are actually out there isn’t a good argument to bring forth.

On a side note 30 wolves were reported killed outside the wolf management area in 2017. As far as total wolf numbers out there posted by Gand F could be accurate. It could also be purposely deflated for various reasons.

I elk hunted in 2017 in one of Wyoming’s wolf units. I heard wolves every night. I only seen one wolf the 2 weeks I was there. In two weeks of hunting I can only think of one occasion wolves affected my hunt. We had a bull talking one morning. When a wolf howled across the highway. The bull went silent. What I found really interesting on that hunt was the amount of coyotes I heard howl every night.

I am sure wolves and grizzlies affected the elk population in the unit I hunted. I still had a fun hunt and still shot a bull. Packing an elk out at night in grizzly country will make you change the way you do things however. Ike and I packed my bull out in one trip just to avoid going back to a carcass. Wow what a heavy pack that was. Lol

Pig Doc,

I just wish we could hunt wolves in Mn. The wolf lovers definitely use them against us. I am with you and Matt on the it’s not doom and gloom when it comes to hunters and wolves both hunting. On a side note Mn started a 2 year moose mortality study. After the first year 75% of the moose deaths were related to wolves. I am still curious why nothing had been printed on year number 2. My suspicion is they cancelled the study after the first year.

From: Michael
07-Feb-19
HFW,

When Lewis and Clark had there expedition there were what 60 million bison running around. There also wasn’t millions of hunters targeting game animals either at that time.

I can see why they had no problems acquiring game animals.

07-Feb-19
Michael,

Asking sincerely...are the 30 reportedly killed the real total? How many succumb to the three S "virus"?

07-Feb-19
Michael,

I agree, but reading some of the posts above wolves kill more than Bowhunters do. Wolves certainly were not capable of eliminating the buffalo, white man did.

Hunter numbers are poised to fall by most forecasts. Deer numbers dropped measurably a few years ago where I hunt. Not because of coyotes, but liberal harvests.

I love to hear yotes call, and I bet most true outdoorsman love wolf music as well. Heck, I would be glad to have more non-human predators and less humans in the woods.

07-Feb-19
"3. Total wolf licenses sold = 2527

4. Total number of wolves killed by hunters = 44 or a 1.7% success rate.

Either wolf hunters in Wyoming suck, or there isn't nearly as many wolves as some of you 'experts' think."

Incorrect.

1) Most of those tags sold are to people who buy them to have as an incidental take. They don't actually go wolf hunting. They have a tag just in case they see one while hunting something else like elk or deer.

2) Wolves, as is the case with all predators, are very difficult to hunt due to their elusive nature, low overall numbers per square mile, and often times nocturnal habits. This is why bears and lions are often times hunted with dogs. You can't just get in a tree and wait for one to waltz by like you can any ruminant. You could, but it's not going to be very effective.

3) Wolves are not a game animal insofar as they don't provide meat, so people don't go after them like they do deer and elk, which are a far more traditional hunting target.

From: Michael
07-Feb-19
HFW,

I would think the number not reported is not 0. The 30 number is what Wyoming G and F published.

If I was a betting man I would think Mn has a fair amount of that going on as well. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out why Mn has hovered on a 3000 wolf number for years.

07-Feb-19
As hunters gain more experience, will their hunting tactics improve allowing higher success rates?

Might wolf hunting also gain in popularity like yote hunting did?

From: Michael
07-Feb-19
One of the issues that makes wolf hunting hard is where they live in the west. Once snow flys it’s hard to get to them.

I am going to hunt wolves one of these years and I will be calling for them just like I do for coyotes.

When Mn had its wolf season. The quota was filled fairly quickly as well. Easier terrain to hunt once snow flys.

07-Feb-19
“I believe official estimates from game managers more than some nobody on an Internet forum.”

Matt -

I attempted to provide those official estimates and provided a photo that could cause one to infer that those estimates are in error.

Interestingly enough, not too long ago the WIDNR revised their bear population estimates. They increased their estimate by a factor of three.

I would suggest that logic points to the game managers in WI being in error.

I would suggest that politics may have a great deal to do with that.

I have never suggested that wolves be extirpated in WI. However, I believe that they need to be managed. Which they are not.

I believe that there is evidence to support my assertions... regardless of my “nobody on an Internet forum” status.

And from my experience, a personal attack from you seems to be out of character. You alright brother?

From: Glunt@work
07-Feb-19
The quotas, at least in WY, don't leave much room for higher success rates on wolf hunting no matter how good people get at it. If they sold 2527 tags and the quota was 58, you still can't break 3%.

From: TD
08-Feb-19
Well..... I'm with Travis.... and the man IS a hunter, a dedicated, honest, ethical one...... as good as any of the best on Bowsite. A "killer" is someone that works on the floor at a packing plant....and I don't begrudge how they make a living not one little bit either. Might give some folks "conservationist".... and they may hunt now and then. Big difference. They'd exist just fine if hunting went away, it's something you do.... not who you are. I don't begrudge either. But there is a difference between a hunter and someone who hunts.

If it effects hunting tags, seasons.... opportunity.... they don't make enough wolves worth losing that for me..... much less effect the livelihood of folks forced to live and and work there with them..... that had them stuffed down their throats with the barrel of a gun.

Just ponder that a moment..... having such a thing forced on you where you live. Be like suddenly feral pigs are protected and they're going to introduce them across your state. Too bad about you farmers getting your fields destroyed, what it costs you.... they serve no real purpose... but we think they're cute....

Wolves were NEVER "eradicated" much less ever "endangered" in NA. Never. Anyone's claims as such are a lie. You don't pay people to shoot endangered animals out of aircraft. What they did is introduced them into a landscape of literally islands of habitat where they haven't been in a century. Then seemed shocked when things went south. They are not necessary to that environment in any way shape or form, again, haven't been for a century..... but for some romantic notion. If they looked like opossums instead of yuppie puppies like fluffy nobody would give a rip.

They turned loose the true alpha predator.... one with a high rate of reproduction that hunts 24/7 365 days a year with no limit nor regulation.... nor any natural control but for killing themselves out of house and home and moving on. It cost taxpayers millions to introduce them (sooo cute...).... millions more in litigation after being more than 3 times over goals, lying to peoples face and reneging on the original agreed upon goals for delisting. And as evidence to such a wonderful natural "balance"..... now millions more to pay for "management" such as aerial depredation needed now to try and minimize their damage to wildlife and property after just a few years of establishment.

Yotes... and big yotes are pretty much the only things I'd consider picking up a rifle for. I'd shoot all I had a chance at, always have and always will. Was a bounty on yotes in CA when I was a kid and did everything from rifle over call and bait, trapping.... and was a gunner in a cub once with an 870, pretty thilling. But hunting them as game animals is a joke WRT management. Wolves that bump into other packs will kill more wolves than hunters will. They ARE the hole in the ground you dump money into WRT wildlife and management. Ask some AK guys. Folks with experience with what wolves are, and do. Game herds don't recover without wolf "management".

WRT MN..... glad you folks like em there. (although ya should talk to some WI folks that aren't real thrilled....) It's your turf, be nice if it was actually up to you one way or another, but I get it. I should have no say in it, I don't live there. People that do live there should. I know I'll never hunt there, see no attraction for out of state, deer and such elsewhere are better.

I understand local hunting, grew up on a 2000 acre farm in the mountains of northern CA with OK hunting, killed a bunch of deer, blacktail and muleys, ran a lot of bears.... but better in many western states, depending. Not many plan NR CA mule deer hunts. Especially after putting lions on the protected list....sigh.... deer in the area aren't extinct.... just not many left. Fewer to eat they're moving into towns and eating pets.... attacking people. And spending a fortune on lion management, paying state hunters. If anyone actually read, you know, the OP.... very similar. Stupid management is all. Management by emotion and politics.

From: Grey Ghost
08-Feb-19
Look, I know it's vogue these days to be skeptical about any information provided by any government run program, but I don't see any reason why the Wyoming Game and Fish would intentionally skew their numbers on wolves.

I've been involved in 2 official Game and Fish head counts. In my case it was for Bighorn Sheep, which are one of the most highly managed species in Colorado. I know that these counts aren't an exact science. But, after scouting the unit for 5 months, and hunting it for a total of 4 weeks over 2 seasons, I think I knew where at least 90% of the sheep were in the unit. The head count estimates were pretty darn accurate.

In Wyoming's case, 85% of the state can kill wolves on sight with no license. You know damn well there aren't many wolves in those areas. So, that leaves 15% of the state with a managed wolf population. 400-500 wolves seems like a very believable number to me.

Everything I'm reading from a wildlife management perspective indicates the Yellowstone wolf reintroduction accomplished it's intended goals and was a success. It seems they are doing a good job of managing the wolf population at a level were they can coexist, which I personally think is a good thing.

On that, I'm out. 16" of fresh powder on the slopes is calling my name.

Matt

From: Pig Doc
08-Feb-19
"Just ponder that a moment..... having such a thing forced on you where you live."

I'm guessing the wolves and Indians felt the same when a bunch of white folks showed up with guns and poison. Who was there first TD?

I'm out too. Made my points. Headed to Big Sky for a week and hoping there is fresh powder there too.

From: TD
08-Feb-19
Been following the introductions from the start and the BS agreement that got the camels nose in the tent...... If there is a plan to co-exist..... WY has by far the best plan. And they took some serious heat from a lot of people to cave in like MT and ID did..... but they stuck with their principles and won.

Doc.... I'll take your heartfelt shark jumping statements a little more seriously when I see that you've deeded all your property back to the tribes.....

They didn't introduce Native Americans into your back yard...... a century or two after the fact..... maybe write some African Americans a check as reparations for slavery while your at it.... I've got some family grievances with Great Briton I've been meaning to write them about too..... but none of that will pay ranchers for their livestock, houndsmen for their hounds or increase tags and opportunity for hunters.

Have a great weekend folks. I'm bowhunting Sunday, bird season's over......

From: bowbender77
08-Feb-19
Bravo TD, I'm with ya.

From: HedgeHunter
08-Feb-19
With TD . The Hui Braddah.

HH~

From: Shuteye
09-Feb-19
My grandfather trapped for a living. He taught me to trap, coons, otter and muskrats and I did pretty well and made some money. He had never seen a beaver. After he passed away the state planted a few beavers in my area.This ticked off a bunch of land owners since they flooded lots of branches and farm land. I caught over 60 within a few miles of my house, mostly with a permit from the state, in one year.. I hope my grand dad was watching down and smiling. Beavers are darn good eating. Duck hunters love them because puddle ducks love the ponds they make. Land owners hat them.

From: Shuteye
12-Feb-19
Just saw a great documentary on wolves in Yellow Stone. They said wolves are protected in the park but once they leave the park they are on their own since they can be killed in the three states surrounding the park. They said when the elk migrate out of the park and the wolves follow they are in trouble. The guy said there are about one hundred wolves in the park and it stays that way year after year so killing wolves outside the park doesn't hurt a thing. When a leader of the pack gets killed it upsets the wolves for a while but they come back. The guy said that wolves in Yellow Stone really helped the park and there is now good grazing areas and trees. Beavers and black bears have really benefited from the wolves.

From: HedgeHunter
12-Feb-19
To much Nat Geo fairy tales will make you go blund and deaf.

HH~

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