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Having had Naval Aviation Maintenance Training, and watched "Trial by Fire" amongst other films, the Forrestal fire was caused by a Zuni Rocket, accidently torched off by stray voltage. The Stray Voltage Meter was out of calibration, and malfunctioning. When they attached the umbilical cable, the Zuni lit off. McCain had nothing to do with it.
Maybe when you get captured and tortured for 5 years, you can give all of us lessons on how not to be a song bird.
And also for the record, unlike you, McCain's combat record has been proven.
Wanna brag some more, DogFace? Let's hear it. Otherwise I suggest you stay the hell out of Naval Aviation, because you ain't smart enough.
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But you are passing inaccurate info about his service. He crashed two trainers in training, and got shot down. His other plane was burned up in the USS Forrestal fire when it was parked on the flight deck. He was not flying it when it was lost.
The Naval Academy did not have Aviation training, or a flight line, that last time I was there in 2001. Maybe they got one now, I don't know, but McCain never flew there, or crashed a plane there.
So please try and research some facts prior to dissing a dead combat veteran.
Now as far as a POS goes, you should look in the mirror sometime. The way you curse and carry on here in the Community Forum, and hop up on your hickory stump beating your chest claiming what a great Rambo you are, brings discredit to every soldier who has ever worn a uniform. It is a real turn off, and quite possibly tempting for someone to turn you in to Stolen Valor.
I will be totally honest with you, in all my years when I have ever come across a soldier or sailor as braggadocious as you, it usually turns out they were not in combat arms at all, but just a bean counter, cook, or mechanic, etc.
( There is nothing wrong with being a bean counter, cook, or mechanic. All are part of the team, not everyone can be the tip of the spear. )
And I have never met an Army Ranger who is afraid of anything, let alone using his real name ( yes, I have an Army Ranger in my family )
So my advice to you is to look over your posts, and see how you are representing your fellow soldiers by the way you post here. I would $hit-can "tic-turd" immediately. You use it too much. It is not funny anymore.
Tony
One is known for the words they keep and I do not want to pile on this but it is getting a little deep.
As far as McCain, my hat off to him for 5 yrs of POW, but the last part of his political life was questionable and what he did with the phony dossier is unpardonable, it was done out of hate for Trump and nothing more.
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Care to Private Message me your name so I can send it to StolenValor.org ?
Tony Oliver CWO2 USMC Retired 1976-1996 Avionics MOS In the "rear with the gear" Never in a combat zone
Tell me again about song birds, SMag.
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Tony Oliver
CWO2 USMC Ret 1976 - 1996
Avionics MOS
In the "rear with the gear"
Never in a combat zone
Gosh, I always looked up to Sergeants Major, and even as a Warrant Officer, I sought their counsel . . . . . .
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But I will be damned if I will stand by silent while others tell lies about his military record.
1:16 in the video, another POW recounts about John McCain.
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I think I will trust better what those who were prisoners with him say about him. See my youtube videos above. Statements from fellow prisoners.
As for his dirty politics, most of us are in agreement on that.
Worth repeating.
Matt
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I agree as long as both are scrutinized with facts.
I will also say there is no credence for a dirt soljah to claim anyone is a $hitbird pilot, especially when the pilot in question made hundreds of successful landings on a moving pitching rolling aircraft carrier deck.
But that is just my "critical" thought process.
;^)
Tony
Zuni rocket motors used to be highly susceptable to stray voltage. AIrcraft back then also didnt have they safety mechanisms to prevent this.
They were smart enough to go to college and get paid better money to serve our country.....
Stop acting like you’re above everybody else..... both in your service and in bowhuning.
You either have a 4th grade education or were concussed one time too many.
Learning how NOT to be a douche bag should be at the top of that list. Don't like McCain's politics. Most don't. Stop spreading lies about his service. And stop being a coward and post your REAL name.
Annony Mouse's Link
Wonder if much was due to his loss to Obama and pushed his "bitter button", especially when Trump beat Hillary. Perhaps it might be the result of his time as a POW catching up with him as he aged. Certainly, his last days showed him to be a very bitter man with TDS.
The days and years of the end of one's life may certainly taint the accomplishments of ones early years for that is the time that many will remember.
After this thread, why would anyone care what his real name is?
Concur. I would not want to be a POW and go thru what he did.
I think one thing that really struck in his craw that started his bitterness streak was this exchange on national television.
I voted for the guy and Palin and at the time he didn't seem too bitter back then. I figured something was wrong with him when he recently threw Palin under the bus. She was very graceful in her response to this drive-by reporter. She did it right and didn't throw any cheap shots.
Matt
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A Private Message is just that, so I won't post it here.
BTW, we have a full bird Ranger who participates on BS. You could not meet a nicer or more humble man!
McCain is laid to rest. It's not doing any good for anyone to drag his name thru the mud.
Yelp
Ive met some real characters in my time.
Please go back to the fist post. His military record and political life are used together to assess Senator McCain was a TB.
What ever happened to not speaking ill of the dead?
If it was simply revenge because Trump hurt his wittle feelings worse that the VC, then that is petty and lame. If it was to initiate a soft coup by his establishment deep state buddies, then McCain was a god-damn traitor (* later in life, with cancer eating his brain) but it was still the move of an ultimate scumbag.
The point of being engaged in war being being no more important... well, they must be different in some regards because most would probably rather pay their taxes, than go do battle. Vietnam comes to mind.
Toughest, most challenging single endeavor in my lifetime was enrolling in and graduating from OCS. To this day I feel I have not earned my keep in America because I never served in combat.
Most folks sharing your opinion in my mind are those who never served and may at times be jealous of those who rightfully earned a notch above a regular taxpayer. JMHO, and I was concerned about the stalking comment, but these guys and gals deserve my support.
There are bad apples in every group. Some of McCain's private sector disappointments may be from the scars he carried from war, prison and torture. Unless we have walked those shoes, best to grant some latitude, again, JMHO.
Not everything can be explained with logic, IMHO.
Wait. What? There are a number of vets on here, NVG, PigDoc, JTV, Annoy, MikeCT, Big Bear, BowSniper,....and I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch. I have never, ever, never ever heard them say they were a notch above anybody. My dad was a gunner in an M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyer during WW2 (think Fury, really). Landed ETO in July of '44. Never thought himself above anyone. He was the most humble man I ever met.
Honestly Frank, your arrogance and narcissism is really starting to shine.
I never said the vets felt they were a notch above, the rest of us should feel that way about them. Isn't Veterans Day a national holiday? For a reason right? And Washington led a bunch of regular guys to victory.
Because a guy's relatives served does not mean anything about the character of the poster. I am not a veteran. Try letting your bias not get in the way.
"I never said the vets felt they were a notch above,..."
Come again?
"...of those who rightfully earned a notch above a regular taxpayer."
Be nice? That WAS nice.
In my eyes.
You absolutely used emotion instead of logic. Telling us about your relatives, and using despicable human beings as a sample when for everyone of those losers there are at least 100k who served honorably without us ever hearing about them. Nice try, it may work with your clients who need your help, but not here;-)
Further, there is a brotherhood amongst those that served for a reason. I am not aware of any mini-series called 'Band of CFPs' or 'Band of Teachers'.
Regarding teachers, CFPs, bakers and candlestick makers etc. I am not aware of those professions leading to high rates of physical, mental and emotional injuries that are life altering. I am not aware of multiple people in those professions committing suicide on a daily basis, or in need of health care services at the level our troops are.
Yes, I still believe folks who don't have a clue or know they couldn't measure up are the loudest mouths trying to have others believe they did their part.
And we did, only vets did more and I hope as a nation we never forget it.
You have to excuse HH, he has always been that way.
Tell me again how many times you were peered out before you made it?
I seemed to remember a few years back I was about as high strung as HH but with his boy Kerry.
Something about him writing his three purple hearts I think and I was challenged about serving.
I basically said I have been nowhere and done nothing and haven't. My opinion is it shouldn't matter everyone should have the right to speak.
Politics and Religion can get out of hand right quick with those who have thin skin like some here.
You have to watch some of these cats, they will use anything personal in debate, look you up, threaten you, call your boss, and while I have let stuff creep out over the years I keep personal stuff mostly under wraps even in PMs.
We had thread owners deleting opinions they didn't like for a bit. You never know when they get mad if they will just start name calling or look you up and do a mass shoot in your group home.
Not being one to go along with the groupthink is why I fear these new gun laws so much. You never know when someone who supports "red Flag" laws will call the po-po because I got the best of them so its best to keep a little anonymity.
If, ifs and buts were candy and nuts....
If McCain's brain was healthy at that time. Having a man with a questionable deferment cut a POW down for being caught a prisoner, I give him a lot of latitude for that.
Your emotionalism keeps showing. I never said idolize, I said respect.
What veterans say to civies, and what they acknowledge to one another is different at times. We are not part of that band. Like I said, those who belch the loudest on this are ones usually ones who never served or knew they couldn't handle it.
I don't think you are cut out for this type of debate forum Kevin. I have said enough, you can continue on. I will continue to honor and respect our vets, and know by the grace of God I was not called to make that sacrifice. I hope I have lived a good life, maybe reflect on the origins of that thought and realize it is not uncommon for a person who has led a relatively easy life to contemplate what if...
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I think you both are missing the point.
If you both want to start a thread stating that Ira Hayes was a drunken Pima Indian, you probably won't get much an argument.
If you state that Ira Hayes was a coward, and a piss poor Marine Infantryman, then expect a push back.
It is really that simple.
Tony
John McCain as a public servant became a nightmare to American politics that would rival and many would say surpass his own nightmare in VN. He was a politician that could not be trusted by his peers and in the final stages of his life in politics proved everyone who questioned his allegiance absolutely correct. He may have been a war hero, who cashed in on that status believing he could walk on water, but he most certainly was not an American hero. He if anything was Brutus to the conservative party, to friends and foe's alike.
The Rock
I just don't want to argue with a post any more Kevin. That's what adults do. Have fun, sincerely.
I think everyone but you gets it. I made my position clear. You did as well.
We disagree. Adults move on. You want to keep arguing. I don't. That is how I told you some time back I would deal with you.
Call me anything you want. I don't know you, you have no effect on my life. No doubt you feel the same way. State our views/cases and then move on. This is just not that important.
I walk up to every vet and thank them for their service and shake their hand if they are willing, every single time. That is just me. After hearing your well articulated views, I will continue to do that. It's just something I feel good about doing. Some here agree with you, a few with the views I expressed. That's good enough. Move on.
Peace man.
Knowing what you know now Frank about McCain I ask this: Would you offer the same for John Mc Cain if you would have happened upon him before his demise? If so your hypocrisy knows no bounds. If not , why not? Simply pointing out the obvious to arrive at a truthful answer.
The Rock
Please cease the inflammatory rhetoric. You did the same when you attacked Trump.
I don't think anyone has ever implied that anyone should be excluded from scrutiny. Kevin's statement is as ridiculous as what you are chiding me for.
McCain is dead. His last time on Earth was probably impacted by his health.
Going back over a dead man's record ought to be off bounds if it will make no material difference today. Let's not lose our humanity.
Again Rock, people want to skip over the high probability that Trump avoided service and then attacked a man for becoming a POW. If you are going to judge McCain, then it is only proper to judge everything that might have fueled that behavior.
Speaking just for me, it appears that at least some here are willing to critically think about McCain but not about their president. JMHO. We can disagree, it is still something we cherish here.
Nonsense! As a guy who served, I didn't see it that way at all. McCain had been giving Trump a bunch of crap calling his supporters a bunch of "crazies", and when asked about this (see real clear politics article 7/19/2015):
'Trump fires back, saying in 2008 he "raised a million dollars for the guy, that's a lot of money... he lost, he let us down. He lost, so I never liked him as much after that. I don't like losers.'
'At that point, moderator Frank Luntz interrupts, asking Trump if McCain deserves respect simply for his record in Vietnam.' (*kind of the same HFW argument)
'No way, says Trump. "He insulted me, and he insulted everyone in that room... He is a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured... perhaps he was a war hero, but right now he's said a lot of very bad things about a lot of people.'
In the military we talk smack. If someone gives it to you, you give it back even worse. Trump didn't serve, but he knows how to fight to win. And he put McCain in his place with a clever zinger. Trump likes winners, and war heroes.... and then pointing out that McCain while considered a war hero was somewhat less of a war hero as a loser, who lost an election and lost in combat. I mean, he's no Chesty Puller....
Would McCain have been just as much of a "hero" if he didn't spend years in a prison camp? If his record was only that of an admirals son who was whoring around, crashing planes, finishing second from last in his class, and getting shot down? Trump delivered an excellent come back that really hurt McCain. And it showed, because McCain never got over it for the rest of his life. Again, Trump wins and McCain was the bitter loser.
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
He was a war hero period, during the war. He was a mean spirited political traitor who served his country but himself first, for decades. I salute the war hero. Good riddance to what followed.
Yes like everything else McCain wanted, he got it both ways.
The Rock
I don’t think anyone is asking you or anyone else to “Idolize” Veterans...........
Rather,,,, In my heart and mind,,,, There is a special respect and appreciation for Veterans. (From me)...... Either you get it or you don’t. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect or appreciate a teacher or a construction worker or any other profession...... But it’s different........
The same as I would show that special respect and appreciation for a retired Police Officer.....
Does that mean there aren’t a few jerks that served in the Military and Police ?? Of course there are. I’ve worked with a few in my career..... There are even a few here on the CF that I would have no desire to share a campfire with........ While at the same time still having that respect and appreciation for their service.
The Rock
Ok, we go after gflight but give the above a free pass? Are you kidding me? And this is what goes for critical thinking and logic?
Point is Kevin, you didn't have to research anything as DJT's promiscuity is well known. You could have easily challenged the balance of the standards without any research, without addressing anyone.
But go ahead and parse more words instead of just admitting you failed to adhere to your own standards.
I will leave it at that so another thread does not yet again get caught in a loop that will make Paul respond.
You can say I ran, I am not mature or cut out for this type of interchange etc, as predictably you will. Hopefully I saved you time, and Paul some anguish.
,,,and Frank, equating gflight with the POTUS to comparison shows remarkable insight into the convoluted mind. C'mon Frank. Clean up your act.
The Rock
The convolution is within your own drug residue filled mind.
Again Kevin, I don't think this style of debate is for you. I was not running point for anyone, but the point eludes you as you pick and choose who to respond to while I try and respond to issues. Keep saying you don't have a fragile ego, you might start actually believing it. Over and out!
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
Yesterday news. The catalyst for my indulgence from day one was to investigate the experiment. I am the residue Frank, the presumptuous residue. How could you ever know, a man who lived his life in a seer sucker suit in a man made box. Do not deny that you owned such a suit, and surprisingly that I could have ever known that. Tell the truth.
The Rock
The Rock
I don't even know what one is, lol.
BTW, did you see the senators who came out in support of McCain? Read the article in the WSJ today.
Kevin,
I would send this in a PM, but you asked that I do not a long time ago, and I have tried to honor that. I ask you to stop and think about what I will write next, and PM if you want. I am willing to keep the dialogue private.
You wrote;
"When I say I am not going to respond to an individual that I have determined is a liar, an obvious troll, or mentally unstable, I don't respond to them...period. Unlike "some people" I don't make some grandiose announcement that I am not going to respond..."
That was an announcement, taken in the context of what I posted only a complete idiot would not know who you were talking about. I gather at times that you believe the way in which you post stuff is not as obvious as my direct approach, taking a stab in the dark here. My direct approach is done because I grow tired of words like you wrote when you actually did what you said you don't do. This is a common tactic by humans, and a pet peeve of mine. If you remember, "words mean something..." and then I challenged you on that. I know my style irks you as well, that is why I try not to respond to you. "try" being key, lol.
I did not read the links about McCain. Anyone paying attention to national politics would have been aware of those rumors/allegations/stories long ago. My point was simply, how McCain treated his wife could not be used to assess his moral stature unless the same was done against everyone else who behaved similarly, including our president. I assume the stories about both men are true. In fact I remember once watching where trump admitted women were his weakness. Maybe that helps? I hope so. I am listening to what I posted and my words sound better in my mind than probably what is visible here.
At times you confound me. You have shared your opinion more than once that, my words here, group think is a problem on this board at times. It sure seems so with this, and people willing to cut McCain down for any little thing but the memes come out in full force whenever anyone is critical of trump for the same behavior. I hope that helps? You are obviously more intelligent, more articulate and a better debater than I. Honestly, you win. If I had JTV's skills, I would post a trophy. Onward!
These 2 men, Mueller and McCain served our nation as hero’s. Selfless, honorable and always dedicated to our nations highest calling. Trump? He was busy going in and out of teenage pageant dressing rooms and banging porn stars behind his wife’s back while she was nursing a baby.
How anyone who wore the uniform and swore allegiance to the Constitution could support him is beyond comprehension.
We will watch how good you are as you respond to Paul;-)
There is no babble there, you always lose me with your intentionally demeaning comments. You can rarely post without doing that. It really is a turn-off trying to engage you. By our age, we have enough experience and solid track records that speak enough as to our mental soundness. Maybe try making your points will less antagonism.
Support your red flag laws, laugh at redefining machine guns, support age driven gun bans.
Remember he had better training than HH as a cadet in military school.....
The Rock
Habitat for Wildlife's Link
My respect fir him stops right there. He was a lying politician. That allowed his ego to screw every single American out there. He had a chance to do as he promised through his numerous insinuations about the ACA. Yet, threw that away out of spite. Knowing he was leaving here. It’s unusual that men don’t do the right thing on their death bed. No matter the way they’ve lived. But, this guy was a special kind of egomaniac. Always had been. It wasn’t the tumor. It was John McCain.
Patriots come whether they serve our not. Those who do deserve a thank you. But, do not posses a special place among us. Because the people paying their salaries are doing just as much for the cause as any armed forces member. It’s just in a different way.
Grey Ghost's Link
Matt
Rock will be one of the first to post something with strong rhetoric today on how we must now support Trump or we are idiots. Rock is proving to be completely off on many subjects on the CF.
I have to say that Jack, Mouse, has proven himself a principled man. He supported Trump when it was not popular. Kudos Jack!
Truthfully well stated and well received. I believe now is the time to support Trump or YOU are all idiots. I am off on many subjects on the CF, which comes with the territory when one thinks for and by themselves.
I would hope that my response will quell the notion that I am single sided, a slave to my own convictions, subjugated by no one of inferior ability. That said, I submit to soothe your ailing heart.
Continue to school the CF in your perceptions as you would to impress upon your students. The CF if nothing else is not the comfort zone of which you are accustomed. Many rungs on the ladder above you, and understandably, difficult to accept. Simply cast your eyes and mind skyward. The best of teachers are more than willing to learn outside their sphere of consequential knowledge. Live and learn.
There goes that reefer induced flashback again. Oh how I love it so. ;-)
The Rock
Your post reads like a scene from the movie The Deer Hunter.
The Rock
You guys are hard men, thanks to all of you!
Call me jaded, but our President criticizes McCain, then takes the new pressure off NK. Big difference IMHO between him and hard men like you.
The POTUS just took a piss. YOUR embarrassing yourself now. What motivates this self indulged infatuation you have whenever this man moves? You should recuse yourself from further contact with the impressionable. I respect teachers Frank, how could I not, my wife being of the same, but YOUR scary Frank and I am not provoking you or grandstanding in that assessment.
The Rock
The Rock
Rock, if there was any validity to your view, but there is not as we now have a history of your over the top assessments, I would ask my students to read posts of both of ours. I then would ask them which one participated in drugs. Enough said.
I am "somewhat" honored that I would headline as the subject matter of warning for your students. I tend to believe that if I am read as posed, word for word, you may have unwittingly created a formidable class of monster. Expect letters from parents in the near future to question your "experiment". The drugs that I have consumed are not for the light of heart or mind, and I would hope you would initial those sentiments and destructive practices to the negative in which I have taken part. If one, just one of your students takes heed we both have succeeded.
The Rock
You keep saying what you did, you just convince me the opposite is true.
For the last time, I know I never served in combat because of the Grace of God. I am sure He has a reason why. From where I stand, a person who is willing to contemplate issues such as this one, is a person that recognizes their blessings. I feel the same way about family and friends who experienced life challenging health issues...but for the Grace of God. It might be called Catholic guilt. For me it is an appreciation of being looked after, and not deserving it any more than another.
I get it, you don't contemplate much. Good for you. People are different, and those that cannot accept that people are different work by themselves. That's OK as well.
In regards to KPC. Take my advice. Stop digging, to get out of a hole. He is ever so slowly burying you deeper and deeper with your own shovel in your own hands.
The Rock
I get it. I respect you for doing what you’ve claimed to do. But, I’m getting tired of always been talked down too in a condescending tone. It gets old hearing how everyone but a solder is beneath you and your peers. You chastising others for giving John McCain the respect you seem to deem is mandatory of a soldia’. What is wrong with you?
Let it go. You have a lot to offer people if you could get past your history. Quit living in the past. And quit idolizing yourself. It’s past old.
I got my eyes wide open when working for the VA, it was hard to deal with some vets that were convicted rapist, wife beaters, just all round bad individuals and some were officers.
Just because they are a vet doesn't mean they wear a halo, I had some real low character individuals when I was in the Navy, just a collection of humanity.
Not so much words of wisdom from the wise, but words offered to the wise who will take advice. The man who realizes the limits of his knowledge, obviously has long eclipsed those limits. ;-)
The Rock
I might be a wise-azz, but that's about it.;-) People see the world differently. I am OK with that. I hope not to be judged by my worst day on this world, and remembered for the good I have accomplished. I try my best to extend the same to others as I know I will be judged as I have judged. But that's just me, and based on my posts here I am usually off.
Have a great day.
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I am just curious, Bowsniper, will that be you, or JTV, wearing the Ruby Slippers ?
;^)
