Contributors to this thread:
Pat Lefemine's Link
Discuss our Broadhead Tuning Interview
Pat Lefemine's Link
For anyone who has ever struggled with broadhead flight, or is a tuning geek, this interactive Q&A is for you.
Please note, some of the audio responses have more detail than what's asked in the question.
There's a lot of information in here, Lennie really provided a brain dump for all of us. This was very cool and I learned a lot.
Thanks Pat. Just in time for the (I hope) last bit of BH tuning.
Interesting how different "experts" can have such different opinions.
Great feature Pat! Very informative and will be a great help to many!
One of the things I focus on when tuning is obtaining level nock travel on both the horizontal and vertical plane. Lennie hit on this a little but did not emphasize it nearly as much as I expected him too. I'm probably super OCD with my tuning and I get worse every year, mainly because I enjoy tinkering. I do think through tuning static yokes, bus/control cables,or whatever system your bow may have on it that you can get your field points to hit at the same POI as your fixed blade heads and I'm sure quite a few will agree with that sentiment.
Most modern bows are adjustable enough to take nock travel out. I would concede though that probably only 5% of us or less are capable of that kind of tuning. (5% of all bowhunters, not 5% of the Bowsite population)
I had started to think I taught this guy everything I know until that question was answered. ;)
Made me feel OK about my progress. Arrows are my favorite part of my weapon. I'm glad he kept it simple for us regular bow hunters. There are so many incredible fixed and expandable heads these days it is getting easier to put the right combo together. I got pretty excited about next years THIN Maxima Red arrow!
I think he's right about that as far as he goes with it. I think many bows people are trying to tune are not set up/timed perfectly before hand. Relying on a bow shop to set up, time, tune the bow is hard. It takes a great deal of time that they are not getting paid for. A brand new bow shouldn't even be adjusted much until it has 30 to 50 shots through it (or more) to settle the stings and cables in. The vast majority are set up "good enough". I think that's the level he was directing his answers to.
He gave a generic general answer that likely covers 90% of the people they sell stuff to. Fair enough. The correct answer would be to eliminate the nock travel, etc. and then tune. But then I saw some pics with a solocam in his hands and it all suddenly made sense... =D
Really enjoyed the discussion, however I was hoping that it would also include some discussion on tuning for us older guys who still like to shoot aluminum arrows out of our compounds.
I'm surprised at the lack of responses to the interview. I'm guessing it was his mentioning of KE instead of momentum, and him not endorsing overly stiff arrows, EFOC and broadhead tuning is what shut down the comments. Had anyone else said the same thing there would have been all kinds of arguments to the contrary.
Pat, if you do this again, I would like to hear Len Marsh's comment on some of these topics.
Brotsky, if we're going to dive off the deep end into level nock travel, is there a link to a good video on how to achieve that?
One of the things I got out of Lennie was how to avoid potential pitfalls in setting up your bow and arrows, and not getting too anal about your fieldtips and BH's hitting exactly the same.
Frankly, if I was going to go that route I'd probably start with buying about ten different BH's and see what my bow does with them. We know different brands make a big difference.
It would make a great bowgeek article to have someone who really knows how to supertune bows go through that exercise with a bunch of different bow and arrow fieldtip/bh setups. Or have a manufacturer certify "same as fieldtip" POI (within certain tolerances of course) with a certain setup, a la Roy Weatherby 1 moa guarantee.
I don't think he really answered Pat's question about whether field points and broadheads should have the same point of impact. Also, was interested on his comments on FOC - I've seen a lot of extreme FOC articles lately.
"Brotsky, if we're going to dive off the deep end into level nock travel, is there a link to a good video on how to achieve that?"
I'm sure there are some good instructional videos on youtube, just search for "tuning" and what type of bow you shoot. I learned by trial and error how to tune my bow. Let me tell you, there were way more trials and errors than successes at first. I think the biggest drawback a lot of archers face is that they don't understand completely how the mechanics of their bows work. That combined with the lack of access to a press or other equipment makes tinkering unrealistic. Lennie's instructions are excellent for guys that want to get a decent tune on their bow but don't have access to all the tools, etc. There are steps though that you can do to super-tune your bow if you have that equipment. Having 4 bows in our house that get shot year round makes it a financially sound decision for me to have invested the cash in that equipment.
Great interview and very informative. Thanks to Pat for trying to help other hunters get better! Mike
I have a feeling this was just a cleverly disguised infomercial. Kind of like the weight forward feature last year.
Take it for what it is. One mans opinion. Certainly not the final word. Being a Bowsite Sponsor, the polite thing to do is not roast him too hard.
X, I got a completely different vibe. My take was Pat having a wise old dog sharing some hard earned wisdom. Just one man's view for sure, but some nuggets in there imo. Besides, the infotainment was on the last Q.
Brotsky, I am the proud new owner of a last chance press, and I recently made a draw board. The board was an epiphany for fixing timing. Absent a good video, sounds like nock travel tinkering may have to come after this season, since I'm shy on time for recovering from the error part of trial and error.
williamtell, the best piece of advice I can give for tinkering is this: write down everything you do so you can undo it! I learned this the hard way!
BTW...the last chance press is awesome, I have the same one.
"Lennie's instructions are excellent for guys that want to get a decent tune on their bow but don't have access to all the tools, etc. There are steps though that you can do to super-tune your bow if you have that equipment."
But Len and Pat have access to all the tools and they still can't get BH abd FT to hit together. I find that ........ interesting.
Edit; Ok so that was harsh and not true....my bad.
I appreciate him taking his time for the interview. I do think he stopped short of some crucial tuning advice that many struggle with though.....
Infomercial? What a bunch of crap. lennie didn't even mention his products I'm the one that mentioned his products just out of courtesy and the entire article was about issues and information and we tried very hard to stay away from anything that was biased.
I agree that this was no-infomercial, Len seemed to go out of his way to keep the discussion generic as possible. I still shoot aluminum arrows because I really enjoy fine tuning my nock to fletch and the fixed broad head alignment to fletch/nock. I still always end up re-adjusting my sights when preparing for Bow Hunting Season and practice with broadheads from that point forward. I think some of Len's suggestions will transfer to aluminum arrows, especially the 5, 10, and 20yd paper tuning.
"But Len and Pat have access to all the tools and they still can't get BH abd FT to hit together. I find that ........ interesting."
Sometimes impossible to do without dual static yokes, blows my mind how many people do not yoke tune?
Great information to answer a lot of my questions on BH tuning. It's something that I have worked on a lot and have learned by trial and error. I was pleased that some of my learning on my own was confirmed by Lenny's discussion.
Best time I ever have spent listening to an audio interview. Thanks.
Keep them coming.
The info discussed may be adequate for some, but is oversimplified and not complete enough for many. I haven't found a better and more complete guide to tuning than Nuts & Bolts.
Respectfully Pat...when you mentioned you had a hard time tuning BH's....he could have helped you- and many others-solve that!
BH tuning is a common problem that many struggle with...maybe get him to elaborate on a "How To" on this.
Great interview Pat! It contained most of what I've had to learn over the years. Had a pretty good intro to "supper-tuning" your bow. However, without a discussion on yoke-tuning, and the use of a draw-board for cam timing, a lot of stuff is missing. Keep info on this coming:-)
Beendare, did you even listen to the interview? Lenny doesn't BH tune. He does it the same as Pat.
Pat, you said that you first check for perfect arrow flight with FP and then sight-in with your BH. How did you check for perfect arrow flight prior to talking to Lenny? Just curious.
Enjoyed the interview. Thanks.
Good interview, and I always think it VERY valuable to get experts point of view in all aspects. I thought was interesting on the bareshaft tuning comments and he was spot on regarding the fletching comments and need to tune with them. As he said, ‘it can be a start’, but at 5 yards it doesn’t tell him a lot. I couldn’t agree more as I have had plenty of BS bullet holes at 5 yards, only to end of severely nock high etc at 20 yards.
BUT…BS tuning is my favorite form and I use it until I get straight impact at 20 yards. Not always possible without yolks, but you can get it pretty close.
Then…I shoot field points until windage it set, then I shoot FBBH. Rarely, if ever, do they not fly perfect after BS tuning at 20 yards. Couple that with adequate fletching and form, and your gold. The only thing I will say is that if you BS is WAY off, you fletching or mechnaicals are probably correcting more than they need to. So, it is a valuable tool IMO, but at the end of the day, I always end with fletching and fixed blades and that has to be your best and final test.
PS I also have been shooting 4-fletch 3" feathers over the past year and absolutely love it. Absolutely no issue with durability and they just look cool. Granted, if I was heading into sheep camp, I would use vanes, but otherwise its great:) I go from bareshaft to the 4 fletch feathers, and this really gives me confidence that my arrow should go where I point it....I just tend to screw that last part up sometimes ;)
Strong interview and solid advice. Many of us have been preaching the same for years. Some here argue that it was oversimplified, however, for the average archer it was dead on. You have to know your audience and he nailed it.
Glad you posted this Pat.
Good interview Pat. The guys not satisfied with the depth don't need advice from anyone and the guys that do would have had their mind blown if he went into yoke tuning, draw boards and the like. He pushed pro shops for this. Like some have said you have to know your audience and this interview wasn't to help those all ready in the know. He was speaking to the 90+% of archers not the 10%.
Thanks guys. I was very happy with Lennie's no-nonsense approach and advice. And you're right. This interview was not meant for the guys that tweak the tweaks.
Purdue - to your question - I was probably not clear. I never really shoot FP's. A long time ago my wife and I did 3D shoots but haven't done one in years. So I shoot BH's all year long. I really never stop hunting so I just use the Bow/Arrow/BH rig I use all the time and practice with that. Once my arrows are flying great and I'm consistently accurate there's really no need for me to mess with FPs...so I don't. My point was, does it really matter if they hit the same? I guess for those that shoot targets at a range or club then hunt over the weekend it would be helpful, but that's not necessary for me.
What's not like??
Free advice from a pro. Don't get that many places these days. If you came away with something, great. If not, all you lost was a bit of time that you were wasting on the internet anyway. lol.
With all do respect, why wouldn't you want you bow tuned as well as it could be. Then, you could screw your broadheads on and shoot. What you are doing is akin to getting in your truck and heading to Kansas without checking your tires and fluids before you leave.
I understand now that this was more of a shade tree mechanic interview than a Nascar Tech interview, but you have to admit, in the days leading up to this interview, you touted it pretty high.
I don't get why all these supposed "Bowsite Experts" are complaining. If you are such an expert why even listen to the interview. I swear guys will find any reason to complain. Its a free interview on a free site.
X-man, that analogy is not even close. How in the world did anyone ever kill anything before super duper yoke camdrawboard tuning was invented?
My dad was shooting an oneida eagle with 2117 eastons and a mix of wasp cam locks and razorback broad heads when I was a kid and I can assure you he never owned a field point and he could shoot like no other and always killed his game.
Thanks Pat - good interview. It pretty much reinforced much of what I learned over the years on bowsite... (a lot from x-man)
Nice job on the interview Pat, thought you did a great job and pulled out some interesting perspectives from Lennie. I am sure folks who have never tuned a bow and gotten broadhead to fly well will learn a ton from your interview.
Broadhead tuning is something that I have struggled with in the past. I always learn something from each person as it seems we all have our own "style" and formula. It's good because if one runs into problems there are options. I have been having issues this year, and it was a phone call to a pro-shop that helped me sort it out. But reading and searching these forums is invaluable as well.
Tune, tune, tune, and set up the gear correctly (spine, FOC, etc.) makes small work of any issues, that could have arisen if these aren't taken care of properly.
Question for Pat`s last post.... you say you shoot broadheads all year long.... just wondering what target you use? I have a block, but to shoot that much with broadheads, it would be shot out in no time. Plus, I don`t like pulling the broadheads out after a shot, so I use a sand pile.
dg72A, One of the perks of being sponsored is I get sent all sorts of things including targets so I have a bunch of them. My least favorite is probably a Block target. They don't last long at all with broadheads - decent with field points. Probably my favorite is Big Green Targets but I don't think they are sold any longer.
Great interview. Just finished listening and learned several new things.
Looking forward to CE 2017 line of new arrows, especially the small diameter ones.
What surprises me is the absence of discussion on spin testing broadheads. My experience has been when I construct my arrows I have so.e arrow that will not spin true and shooting them confirms it is a lost cause to use them as a fbbh arrow. They become field point arrows.I make that call after i try adjusting the arrow insert up to six times. Can some one Edwin to me why this was not addressed?