Contributors to this thread:
The technology Advance
The compound bow, the crossbow, the airbow and more...all, in one way or another, accused of causing the end of bowhunting. But who is really to blame for that one line of thinking? Let us take a look at marketing, marketing as seen from the manufacturers end.
Compound bows: What was the major sales point? How did early day to present, compound manus market the compound bow? Was not the major component arrow speed? Then, add, ease of drawing/holding. So why did consumers buy? Think about that.
Crossbows: What was the major marketing ploy? Arrow speed, no need to draw, extreme distance shooting. Now, let us examine that. In the early days, I testified before our commission to not allow crossbows even for the handicapped. Then, I shot one and studied it. YES-you can hit a softball at 100-yards. BUT- the manus very quietly do not recommend it on live animals. Very quietly. Anyone who has seriously shot a crossbow knows, you cannot hit a 100-yard target and a 30-yard target. Choose one. It is a miserable piece of equipment for distances any longer than for a compound. But that is not what the manus were selling. Why was this so? It is simple. It is because compound sales were dropping and trad. sales were not even on the chart. Now comes airbows.
Airbows: The next sky is falling device. What are the manus marketing? Speed and effective distance...again. But again, very quietly, they say, don't shoot live animals at more than 50-yards. With the sights available, you cannot shoot 100 and 30 yards with the same sight. And, you must have the exact distance. Targets, yes. Live animals, no.
Yes. Bowhunting as many of us knew it, is dying. Or, more accurately, our way of doing it is dying. As we die, it dies but don't blame it on technology. Blame it on change. Blame it on an inevitable change we can do nothing to slow. Bowhunters, like water and deer, will take the path of least resistance. And manufacturers will feed that with a pablum of somewhat inaccurate data that we buy into and believe.
No...technology is not going to cause the demise of bowhunting as we know it. We are. We are the only ones that can.
“ The technology advance “
More like “ the regression of common sense”
What archer with a lick of common sense would define an gun that uses compressed air for propulsion and fires arrows as archery equipment?
Marketing has nothing to do with it
Letting guns in archery has a lot to do with archery’s decline
Side thought/question: why no crossbows for handicapped hunters during archery season?
Bill-once again, you are completely missing the point. You are using terminology to cloud a debate. Yes, just as sure as deer eat acorns, gun will at some point, some day invade bow season. They have not...yet and you cannot provide proof they have...just your terminology.
HDE- You lost me. Please explain.
Ultimately the state DNRs control the decision, NOT the hunter. If it's not legal to use in a given season, than a hunter can't use it. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
So maybe it's the DNRs that are selling out. And yes, IMO, hunting is becoming a free for all because of it.
You portage your canoe towards the secluded lake that usually has a surface like glass, hungry fish, and lots of room because getting there is a pain in the rear. You get a few precious days each year to enjoy this special place and glide through pristine waters silently while hoping to make the perfect cast to an unsuspecting trout.
As you exit the trees towards the shore you find that the county built a road to it and a boat ramp a couple months ago. The sound of jet skis whizzing by mix with the sound of Offset and Metro Boomin singing "Ric Flair Drip" coming from a nearby pontoon boat full of happy college kids. While navigating the ski boat wakes you think to yourself "This is awesome! I was so worried about kids not wanting to enjoy this lake like I always have".
Please support the only National Bow Hunting Organization that takes a stand for Archery Hunting in Archery season. This special season was fought for many years ago and we must step up now for the future bow hunters.
Please join/support the Pope & Young Club. I’m not giving up.
I’m not giving up either..... but damn , these threads wear me down dangerously close.
It is NOT the end of bowhunting and never will be. Compton's membership can prove that. What is happening, is a decline in the culture and use of the vertical bow. Bowhunters, bowhunting, (as defined by the P&Y Club) and associated bowhunting culture are in a free fall. Crossbow use is increasing. Who in the heck with any knowledge can dispute that?
Like Whitetailhrt said DNR has become the sell out.
The DNR does not buy crossbows and shoot deer with them, it is a choice former bowhunters and gun hunters are making.
This was from 2016. I don't think I would characterize this as a "freefall".
It is a matter of degree, and a lot has changed since 2016. Although exact numbers are not known nationally, the reports from Michigan and Wisconsin show more hunters now using crossbows than vertical bows, with a shift of about 10% annually. Just wait until crossbows invade the west, which I hope does not happen.
As a Wi. Deer Specialist said back in 1987, it is up to you bow hunters either to keep it as a bow hunt (regulate yourselves on technology) or choose it as a game management tool, which the gun season is, and that is the problem that Wi. is at with x-bow season. The stats are there and the decision is going to be voted on this spring to change it or keep it. Humans are like water they will always take the path of resistance and there are fewer that will not take it, the least amount of effort to a kill matters more than the hunt.
In Wisconsin the DNR is only the hammer, it is the legislators that approve and make the rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,They are advised by the Natural Resource Board,,,,,,,, The Wisconsin Conservation Congress, submits resolutions to the NRB................
When I issue a citation, everyone complains that the DNR has made the fines too high,,,,, The DNR again only acts upon, what they are told to do, by the legislators, at least it is in this state
Bowriter, you wrote: "I testified before our commission to not allow crossbows even for the handicapped."
Again I ask, why no crossbows for the handicapped during archery season, since we are talking about bowhunting?
MB, as cumbersome as a crossbow is, I just can't see it "invading the West". Somehow I can't wrap my mind around a hard core bowhunter chasing elk at elevation using a crossbow. I think it will mainly be whitetail hunters taking advantage of the extra season. Most of those will transition to a gun during gun season. That's my two cents. Personally if I could no longer draw a compound I wouldn't "bowhunt".
Not buying a decline in bowhunting. I've seen the opposite here in NM. I know probably 2 dozen people whom have crossed over from rifle hunting. The competition to draw a tag has become fierce. And not from a decline. And the numbers of bowhunters in CO? Fear mongering once again..... additionally, if I'm wrong about there not being a decline, out the blame on the liberals and treehuggers where it belongs instead of the hunting industry. You're playing right into their plan other wise ;)
jjs is right it is a societal issue, values, work ethic and more have been in great decline since the 70's. Most folks want instant gratification and do not want to master a skill to get results. Charlie is not giving up and neither am I !!! I believe we should fight for more bow only hunting areas and do as my state has done and in those bow only areas not allow crossbows or airbows, just hand held and and hand drawn devices. Shawn
well dry creek, you might say that, but than reality is something else,,,,, this past winter I had to use a cross bow, due to a temporary disability, after serious surgery, where the good Lord, decided I could hunt for a few more years..................
I have worked my a.. off again to shoot my recurve, and am almost there, but the desire to hunt, is such a strong fire inside of me, I hope it never goes out,,,,,
No crossbows, period? Good luck with that and sidestepping the ADA.
As they say "just sayin'"...
You will never stop people creating new weapons. In S. Korea it`s almost impossible to own a firearm....that`s why they lead the technology in Airguns....they have created 40 to 50 caliber air guns capable of killing grizzlies.
One of our own Curt Wells was one of the biggest proponents for all these goofy weapons....spears....blowguns etc. to be used to kill animals. Don`t point fingers too far.
What`s the difference of a crossbow and a fricken game camera....food plots and bait...one`s on the ground....one`s in the ground. Kind of hard to bitch when we are ALL part of the problem.
I'm all for keeping archery seasons vertical... that means traditional and compound bows that are hand drawn, hand held by the user... if it can be held at the shoulder as a firearm can, then it should be in the firearm seasons ...crossguns and the true handicapped can be discussed ...
Dry creek, much of the west is not high mountains. Many mule deer, antelope and elk are shot by resting over a vehicle, pop up blinds, water tanks, fence posts, corrals, and the like. Much of Wyoming and central Montana is that style of hunting. The scoped crossbow would be the absolute cats ass for hammering elk, deer and antelope under these conditions.
Bowriter, you wrote: "I testified before our commission to not allow crossbows even for the handicapped." Again I ask, why no crossbows for the handicapped during archery season, since we are talking about bowhunting?
Okay-I'm with you now. Keep in mind, this was probably 30-some years ago.The reason is/was...at that time, I was as ignorant of what a crossbow is, as many still are. I viewed it as the Devil's Spawn and was as vehemently opposed as some still are. Then, I shot one, tested it and realized it was not an advantage other than you do not have to draw it or practice with it. As a hunting tool, it is, in fact, a handicap as compared to a compound. I have been forced to use a crossbow for over 10-years and would gladly trade it for my compound, any day.
What the crossbow does is allow a bowhunter to continue to hunt when his body wears out. I cannot, in all that time, think of a single deer I have killed with a crossbow that I would not have killed with a compound. I can, however, think of a couple I could not shoot with a crossbow that would have been slam dunks with a compound. And, I have missed far more with the x-bow than I missed with the compound. The constant worrying about limb clearance is a hindrance you don't have with a vertical bow and the weight and cumbersomeness is a true pain. I am now a strong advocate of crossbows for anyone, especially the handicapped.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and don't be surprised to see the airbow takeover the crossbow in coming years. The old methods isn't bringing in new sales. Plus its cheaper in the long run, a couple of shots and your ready for hunting. Charlie and Shawn X3
One thing I have repeatedly noticed. Whenever a technology discussion comes up, quickly someone tries to define, "Bowhunting". Almost always, the P&Y definition comes up. Isn't that like asking the president of the Mensa club to define "smart"? So let me pose this: 1-Is a person using a vertical bow during hunting season a bowhunter? 2-Is an old man sitting a room with a collection of old bows and mounted heads on the wall a bowhunter? 3-Is bowhunting totally about equipment or is it about a state of mind and a specific season? I have said many times, I have known a lot of hunters with both traditional and compound bows and crossbows who were not bowhunters. I have also known some using crossbows and even rifles who certainly were. I have even seen some on TV with huge bucks that I would not consider bowhunters.
So, how do you define a bowhunter? Is that not just a personal definition? I'll tell you straight out, there are some on this very site who I seriously doubt are bowhunters. For me, bowhunting is ever bit as much a state of mind as it is what equipment is being used. Even when I go to the woods with my rifle, I am bowhunting or at least, in bowhunting frame of mind. I feel sure, a few on here can understand that. Many won't.
Archery numbers up in Ma which does not allow crossbows without a special permit.
Archery numbers up in Ma which does not allow crossbows without a special permit.
"Bowhunting as we know it is dying...." Usually I agree with Bowriter but here in Massachusetts it is certainly not the case. As you can see from the above Archery numbers are up and we currently do not allow crossbows except by special permit. John p
FRANKLIN: You Owe Curt Wells an apology and I hope you will man up!
The person you are talking about is Tim Wells. Curt Wells is one of the most ethical bow hunters and class act persons I know. I don’t know Tim Wells so have no opinion on him. C
I have to agree with Bowriter, on about being a bow hunter,,,,, I know a guy who uses a cross bow, he is only 60, but he is one of the finest woodsman I know, tremendous bow hunter, scouting is what he is all about, and habitat work on his land,,,, prior to the cross bow, he used a recurve, and again he was deadly...... Last year he got his best buck, a 176 12, shot at 8yards...... In the last several years, he has killed some beauties never farther than 20 steps.......
I also live and breathe bow hunting year round, its a life style,,,,, I am always in the woods, and no one has ever given me a stand or said, here " sit on this stand" I earn my own way and that is how I like it,,,,,, I have been shunned by some guys, because I went to a compound, but those same guys do not hunt much anyway so who cares....
Bowriter I get what you are saying,,,,,
Charlie x2. Curt doesn't hunt with spears, you are confused. Curt is one of the most upstanding and accomplished bowhunters there is.
Did the automatic transmission ruin driving? To me it did, but there are still a few mfgs pumping out transmissions you actually have to drive. I look at bowhunting tech similarly. Sure we can make it easier but some will still choose to define their experiences how they see fit. I want to try hunting with a selfbow so I'm going to build one and not worry that most of the guys I share the woods with are toting x bows. I think it's best to worry about me and keep it between the lines. To sit around and worry about "the culture" and act more dramatic than my 2 year old daughter about "the death of bowhunting" seems paranoid at best and narcissistic self importance at worst.