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Number of Pope &Young Entries
After listening to the great interview of Frank Noska and hearing he had 145 Pope and Young entries, I was blown away. At one point in the interview Frank mentioned that he was chasing Chuck Adams for total number of entries. Does anyone know how many Chuck has? It got me thinking. Now both Frank and Chuck are two of the most successful hunters to ever walk the face of the earth so their success and numbers of P&Y entries are extreme, but how many book animals would you say the average club member has? How many entries would you consider a lot? I currently have a whitetail and a coues deer that make the book and have two others whitetail that should make the book so I clearly have a long way to go to chase Frank and Chuck, lol.
and we wonder why hunting gets such bad wrap it has became competition and not about the dinner table. bragging and pictures and a name in a book . sad.
3.14. Any deviation from Pi will bring a sinister raising or lowering of minimum scores.Some even think that they are even tracking animals not entered .
Me,I actually go to convention and very rarely hear a single soul spout a score of anything .....great guys to get to see every two years.
I think it is good these guys have such dedication to bowhunting. This is different than horn porn at all cost including APR's, trespassing, crossbows, law breaking etc. This may be just real bowhunter dedication, including time in the woods and a priority with their personal budgets. I would not simply lump this in as horn porn and a loss for bowhunting. I wish him and Chuck continued success.
And here we go again...
Horn porn, entries in the book sending the wrong message, blah blah blah...
I don't know Frank but I know people who do and they say he is salt of the earth. He loves to hunt and loves the challenge of shooting big animals. My bet is Frank, like most guys, doesn't compare his trophies with anyone else. They are his and what others have done have no bearing on him.
Bowfreak makes a good point.
I have 3 animals entered. But not once did it cross my mind about my scores being higher or lower than other peoples scores. For me it was about the challenge and the accomplished goal of getting an animal that was harder to obtain than the average animal.
I want it to be crystal clear that when I posted this question it was not a nock or attack against anyone. I am a proud member of Pope and Young (and other hunting organizations) and will continue to enter my animals when I get them, not because I am comparing them to others but rather to help support the club and its goals and what it stands for. The original question I thought was rather straight forward and clear.
mountain man x2
I personally feel entering an animal is a respectful thing to do. It takes time to recognize the taking of a mature animal. I've never though of it any other way.
I have met and know many of the most famous bow hunters out there and Chuck was one of the friendliest and most down to earth guys I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. Not one word about what he had accomplished. What Chuck and Frank have done is simply astounding and I wish them all the best. And I don't mind a bit when they post the scores of what they shoot.
For the record:
Frank did not ask me to post his record count. I asked him if I could include it since it helped provide context about his amazing accomplishments. The guy is as humble as they come.
Frank is a great guy. Down to earth, a pleasure to talk with, and a hunting machine. As a life member, I'm excited about the news of him taking over as the new president of Alaska Bowhunters Association.
Never in my life have I heard of an individual passing up a large antlered animal to shoot a small antlered animal. Never. Not once. So let's just admit it, even if you are a "meat hunter" you still like them. It represents being able to take a mature animals, smarter than the average.
Record book associations allow us to have community as bowhunters. If you take them away, or say they are useless, where else can you gather bowhunters and also raise money so that someone raises a voice for bowhunters?
Horn porn large antlers are evil > entering scores is dumb and egotistical > take that all away and stop it > lose the organizations > Finally I am happy in my own little world > PETA and all the libtard organizations attack hunting > hunting has no voice falls by the wayside > Why didn't anyone mobilize a group to speak for hunters? > Now I can't hunt. So Sad.
I have zero. Not that it would be very many if I did enter them, just not my thing. Big antlers and skulls are fun. They also have caused plenty of downside to hunting but most everyone likes to see a big buck coming down the trail or a big bull crossing a clear cut responding to a challenge.
Great logic APaul! On the money - literally.
His post was so stupid, I would not even respond..... I thought the interview was great, like to see a dvd on that guy hey,,,,,, how cool would that be..... I met Chuck Adams once, what a nice guy. I am just Joe Shmo, Chuck never once, talked about his accomplishments, he was more interested in our hunting, and excitement, that was about 30 years ago................................
I have the pleasure to know Chuck personally and also have had the pleasure to speak with Frank on a couple of occasions. Both down to earth guys who just love and live bowhunting with everything they have.
To answer njbuck's original question, I wouldn't be surprised if the average club member had between 1-3 animals scored. I would think that having 6 or more different species to be a lot. Some people are blessed to live in an area where they can kill a single species almost yearly that would make book, so its hard to tell if "x" numbers of entries of a single species is an accomplishment or not.
I think it is wonderful that we are allowed to enter animals in the record books. I also think it is just as wonderful we do not have to if we do not want to. Myself I could have 50 and I would only enter one and it most likely will never happen, but I want to enter a 200" whitetail. I can not even imagine having the resources to kill the animals these two guys have killed. To each hi own and I am happy for them as what they have accomplished shows great dedication to our sport! Shawn
I agree with Genesis, Missouribreaks, and Pat.
I’m surprised Big dog waited so long to respond negatively.... Rob ... I think as soon as you typed the title...his post would have actually piggy backed into yours.
Nobody will ever convince me that it is "wrong" or "bad" or "immoral" or "cocky", etc, to be a goal oriented, hard charging hunter.... I'm NOT talking about a win at all costs, cheater, trespasser, poacher, bragging, etc. type of guy! My attitude is if your going to do something in this short life we have, do it with 100 % effort, passion and persistence! If you give anything less than your a complete FRAUD! Like Apuals stated above , I don't know ANY guy that is going after the spike vs the big 150" 10. If you ask me, any guy that says otherwise is more full of himself than the opposite. P@Y and B@C are merely high standards in big game hunting we aspire to achieve as hard core hunters, it's all they are. It is not any different than wanting to run your best marathon time, lifting the heaviest weight or getting your highest score on test, etc! And we all fall short sometimes or in bow hunting most times, its that gray area on whether you can be happy with yourself, your effort and your hunt, not what others are going to define for you....
Mike, excellent comments. It is OK to be above average and strive to be your best!
What most people don't understand about hunters like Frank is, it's not about the numbers. The numbers come because of the drive. Frank goes on every hunt expecting to find and outsmart the biggest specimen in the area. The fact that he is incredibly successful is a testament to hard work and skill. He set himself up to be in a position to hunt more than any of us, in areas that we can only dream about.
Once you get to that point where the numbers start to really means something, then you add them up and see where you stand compared to everyone else. That is nothing more than human nature. Being one of the best in the world in any sport or profession is a major accomplishment. Frank is one of the best.
Every year before the first hunt, I expect to take a P&Y animal on each and every hunt and I add up how many that might be. Being positive and expecting to succeed is the first step.
Last I knew, Chuck had over 170 in the book.
P&Y has nothing to do with "horn porn" or just just killing an animal for score... Pope and Young is waaay better than that .... I respect those that are accomplished as those like Chuck and Frank .. they are doing something I wish I could have done ... they are "living the life" .... yea, Ive got some darn good deer on the wall's that are P&Y "class", but I never entered 'em, just knowing they would be is fine by me ... I'm glad Pope and Young is out there standing up for BOWhunters everywhere.
I hunt for many reasons, yea, I like hunting for big deer or what can be considered such for the area I hunt. I pass on little bucks every season (dink 1.5yr olds), and try for an older age buck.... I dont always get one, I didnt this past season, but I did put a big Doe in the freezer ... I now limit myself to two deer, if things work out a big buck and a decent doe ... If I kill a 180-200lb buck, I may not take a Doe ... for those that are P&Y members, I thank them and respect them ... If I had the money and time and a job that would allow that time, I would love to be like these respected hunters .... Semper Fi ...
I'm of the opinion with the coming of the internet and social media, one result of course was folks can now easily post their animals for everyone to see. I think that created an internet competition of sorts far and wide. If we didn't have the internet, most competition would be local or at least confined to a specific group such as bow hunters, gun hunters, etc. We used to find out about large animals being taken by reading about it in a magazine. Pre-internet I don't think the competitive nature among hunters was all that strong and certainly the fame and money side wasn't so high profile as it currently is. Today big animals mean sponsorship's, tv shows, books, outdoor shows, internet fame, etc. Some folks might see getting their name in a record book as just a stepping stone towards what they define as fame and fortune. Of course not all folks are like that but IMO the internet and fame and fortune can change folks and the sport. I believe the old timey, traditional hunting motivators have been overshadowed.
It may be telling to see how many animals were entered before the internet age and then look at the number...or maybe the rate of entries since the internet age.
Frank is a great asset to our bow hunting family. Great guy makes time for every one he meets He set himself up so he could have a job that pays him well and gives him plenty of time off. He's living the life. That most of us just dream about. To bash him makes you a 100% asshole. He is one of the best guys I have ever meet in my life He loves to hunt and he made the money to do the things that he wants to do. I have 55 myself
I wonder how many entries the nay sayers scare off. What makes the strictly meat hunter any better than a hunter that likes a trophy and the meat?
Money and Time and anyone with 'the passion' could do the same thing! Passion is a very important factor, because that is what drives a person. But for 'some' money and fame do enter into it also.
Yea, why be jealous of any person that does what you dream of doing? Kudos to all that have the time and coin to do what they love. I enjoy living vicariously through the ones that do it. Continued successes to you all!
Adam, well said brother!
I read Chuck Adams autobiography,,,,,,, no one gave him anything, he earned it...... He also paid his dues in life,
I've never seen a truly successful person that wasn't "goal-oriented". Yes luck counts, but a goal was set before any luck may be involved.
Show me a "non goal-oriented" person, and I'll show you a loser, who is most probably a "sorry loser" and a jealous individual.
I had a thought. If someone wants to support an organization, let's say P&Y, I don't believe they would be forced to wait until they kill an animal with certain size headgear to make a contribution. I feel sure P&Y will be happy to accept your donation.
But what I really wonder is how many would pay the fee if the hunter's name was not listed, only the animal's score and when and where killed?
I don't know Frank Noska, never heard of him. Sounds like a nice guy. I do know Chuck, also nice guy. I never much thought how many big, little or medium animals one killed had anything to do with whether or not they were nice guys. It always appeared to me, some were just in better shape financially and professionally to attain such goals providing they had the mental attitude to do so.
The whole record book thing is just a personal choice. But the "because I want to support (supply own initials)," does not hold water in my opinion. It is like passing the plate in church. Trust me, they will accept your donation without a qualifying criteria.
A lot of guys think they could accomplish what Frank and Chuck have done in bowhunting but truth be known most guys have trouble trying to get their wife to agree to them going on a short one week whitetail hunt ( you hear it a lot.... my wife said I could go out of state hunting this year) let alone going all over America hunting year after year. Sometimes they were successful and sometimes they had to go back the next year and try again. Congrats to them.....top of the food chain !!
I thought my original post was a fairly straight forward question, how many entries does the typical member have and what would one consider a lot. How did this turn into an attach on Frank, Chuck or anyone else who has a large number of entries into any club they are in? Only one person answered the actual question.
My guess would be about 10
njbuck. . . .I would GUESS the "typical" P&Y member has a handful of entries. Somewhere between 1-10. Personally, to my mind, a "lot" of entries would be anything over 20. . . That takes a lot of dedication of one sort or another. But, let's keep in mind, that some areas may require a lot of dedication to have just a couple entries too.
I have 4 whitetail entries. Over 20 years of bowhunting this area. I'm immensely proud of those 4 entries, and ego plays a big role for me. I'll just be honest. There's less than 30 entries in my county where I killed these 4 animals. And yes, I'm proud of it. And I don't give a damn about what someone thinks of it. It drives me. It is a part of the fun for me.
My guess is 27. A lot would be 102
To be clear, general membership in P&Y does not require a record book entry. General members must have at least one archery harvest from the NA29 list. The animal does not need to be record book quality. Record book entries do become part of the criteria (one of several hurdles) for P&Y membership advancement down the road. I'm guessing the average P&Y member total entries is a relatively low number. I have four entries...and I'm about as average as it gets!
I'm a fairly new member of a couple years. Never really intended to enter any of my animals. Just wanted to support the club and meet other members at the banquet if it was close enough to home.
Mathematically, if we have 6,000 P&Y members (Jim Willems would know membership accurately) and 108,603 animals in the 2017 record book, you could do some simple math and say 14 animals. However you do not need to be a member to enter an animal in P&Y, nor have a P&Y animal (just a mature bowkilled animal) to be an associate member and three entries minimum to be a regular member. Since the club is over 50 years old and members come and go, and non-members enter animals, I speculate the average is around 5 or 6 entries per present member and less...slightly over one animal for non-club members.
Of course you could make the case that the top 10% of members have way more entries than the others...Chuck, Frank, Bob, Jack, etc, which skews the data higher.
I totally enjoy reading and hearing others tell their stories of how, when and where of their success. I have a couple of Chuck Adams' books and keep reading them over again. When anyone I know kills an animal I always ask for the story. Thanks to Frank and Chuck to being so dedicated to bowhunting, my passion.
I've got a couple whitetails recorded from my home state. I'm a lot like Bake and Midwest, in regards to a few things. I really don't care if others measure by this number, nor do I care what others think about my reasoning for being a member of any bowhunting club that I support. I primarily support the club because it's bowhunting and that's what I like to do, 365. Plus the conventions are fun to be around like minded individuals. Did I just rant? Damn I'm getting old.
Njbuck, I'd say around 3 or 4 is average.
"Of course you could make the case that the top 10% of members have way more entries than the others...Chuck, Frank, Bob, Jack, etc, which skews the data higher."
-The Pareto Distribution applies to almost every endeavor in life. Even bowhunting records.
Buffalo1 is 100% right - what you get out of something is in exact proportion to what you put into it.
I have zero, but I don't think those that do have are any different than me. I think a "lot" is more than 10 animals... I have met Chuck twice and Larry Jones once and few others that have a "lot" of entries. Both chuck and Larry were incredibly nice guys and a joy to talk to. I would think that from what I have heard Frank would be the same way. I also have a good friend that has what I would consider to a "lot" of entries, I believe he has around 19 or 20 now, could be more, he is another great guy. I know I could and do learn a ton from all of them, and would hunt with any of them, just to tag along at the drop of a hat!
"Money and Time and anyone with 'the passion' could do the same thing!"
Herman I couldn't disagree more. Plenty of people spend lots of money and time trying to do the same and they aren't even close. The fact that Frank does 90% of his hunts on his own puts him in a class with only a very few. It is important that he's put himself in the position to do a lot of hunting but seriously, how many guys have 90% success year after year? Very, very few, regardless of their finances.
I'll second that. Frank has a boat load of brown bears and grizzly bears solo. There's a lot of guys that have neither the stomach, nor the desire to even try that.
And if you're 350 lbs, you may be able to stack up a bunch of P&Y white tails, but you're not going to be killing a slew of mountain goats and Dall sheep solo like he has, I don't care how much you want to do it or how much money you have.
There is such thing as ability.
And we've not even touched on hunting skill. I firmly believe that guys like Chuck Adams, Frank Noska, Bob Ameen, and several others who I won't mention, are just flat out better hunters than average. Just like the Wensels are above average white tail hunters, although they haven't focused their hunting efforts the same as the prior three I mentioned.
I'm sorry, but we are just NOT all created equal. Maybe before God and men, but some people are just flat out better at throwing a baseball, jumping over a stick, building a house, painting a picture, driving a car, etc etc, all the way to hunting big game with a bow and arrow. You can try your entire life to be the best at anything and still not be the best due to innate natural ability.
Ike Im blushing, quit ranting about how awesome I am in a public setting...
Sorry you didn't make the short list Trevor. You were a definite #4, but I had to draw the line somewhere...
To me the Pope and Young entries are just a fun part of Bowhunting. Don’t take it too seriously, no one is getting rich off their Pope and Young critters. It’s simply a fun goal to pursue while Bowhunting, maybe it’s your first one maybe your 100th one. If a Booner animal is possible in your area then that too becomes an enjoyable goal, it’s just something to shoot for. I could kill 10 “meat” animals a year with a bow and it would just be boring. To answer the original question I have around 20, whenever I count them up I soon forget what the number is...must not be that important? But my next one is! Can’t wait!!