Contributors to this thread:
Deliberately adjusting 2 inches low?
I understand the concept but I will keep my first sight pin adjusted to 20 yards and just aim lower when needed, ie, a deer under 20 yards. If I only hunted WTs, I might have a 10 yards pin.
Soooo, you did do that interview with TBM.
I’m in the “just aim where you want to hit” camp. If the deer is alert and you think he may drop more than normal, aim lower.
Nope, I just hold a bit low. I have shot plenty of deer at 20 to 30 yards and have not had them drop. I have also had deer in South Carolina and North Carolina that drop til their chest hits the round at 20 yards. I just adjust to what I feel the deer is going to do. Shawn
I can't argue with the results, nice job Pat! Not to bring an ugly gun topic to the discussion, but I think of this much like dialing in your scope for a rifle shot versus doing some sort of a hold over. It takes away one of the many possible things that could go wrong in the moment of truth.
It sounds good and it is obviously working for you. But why not just aim for the heart? Wouldn't it be a perfect lung shot if the deer does drop? Honestly though, I hit two does high last year and recovered neither. This would have definitely made a difference.
I see Pat's point and there's no doubt it works - heck who who can argue with his success?
I don't want to date myself too much, but I was taught a different process and to use it whether I"m in a tree shooting down, or on the ground shooting uphill. The process consists of Drawing the bow holding it out straight in front of me and beginning to focus on my sight pin (20, 30, 40 etc) I'll be using for the shot scenario. Once drawn, anchored and focused on the pin, I slowly bend from my waist downward (or lean back if shooting uphill) keeping my anchor and sight picture constant. Once the pin settles on the intended impact point (which is typically on the heart or low lungs) I squeeze.
We used to even print the acronym (DABS) on some folks risers to help remind them to draw, anchor, bend, squeeze.
Been doing this for years, didn’t know it was such a big deal.
Good advice, I will give this a try this year.
So then do you have your thirty pin four inches low, etc?
Agree that most deer drop to bolt, at the snap of your bowstring. And from what I've seen, does are more likely to drop than bucks. I think does can drop further faster, as well as recoil backwards and even spin around, more easily than big heavy mature bucks. A doe is more slender and nimble, with less inertia to overcome.
But still, for both does and bucks, I keep my sights dead on, aim for the top of the heart, and hope for the best.
I don't get too excited if I hit a little low when using my 20 yard pin. I prefer to group low than high. I usually aim mid body so it helps. I never have it together long enough to aim low, got enough stuff going on at the time.
I am a numbers/statistics type of person. It is had to argue with Pat's success numbers.
I further think that a pronghorn is wired to drop like a whitetail.
If you shot a quieter bow the animal wouldn’t drop — ha ha!
Is this like those people who set their clocks 10 minutes early so they are not late for work? I like my time to be exact and my arrow to go where I aim and adjust as the situation dictates. That's just me but whatever works for someone is okay with me.
EDIT: Oops, I meant setting time 10 minutes late, not early. Its not setting alarm clock, the actual time.
For some reason when I sight in with my target tips at bulls eye, my broadheads will shoot two inches low anyways so I just leave it there. Most all of my shots on whitetails are less than 20 yards so it works out pretty good for me. If a deer seems extra nervous then I will aim even lower. Oh and I do set my alarm 5 minutes early for when I need to head to work. My brain just works better that way. Heck, I even sight in my gun 1 inch high at a 100 yards.
I think it is akin to sitting your clock 15 minutes fast so you are not late. People that do this always look at their clock and say it says 645 but it's really just 630 so I don't see it accomplishing anything other than making the process more complicated. I Iknow people with target panic will often set up their bows like this because they can't get their pin to the spot they want to hit.
Regardless of what I think, if it works for you have at it.
My top pin is at 25 yards. I aim low all the time - I'm used to it.
I like the idea makes sense
With the equipment as it is. The bows shooting a very flat arrow. Yes, they will react, but not that quick. The deer I took last year never even moved. It was at 15 yards. But, if it helps others and you make good shots, go for it.
Never....Just put the pin on top of the elbow and call it a day.
I have always done this in years I am only hunting whitetail deer. Works great because around here it is so steep it is not uncommon to use a 20 yard pin for 35 yard shots if it is below you. That means it is really easy to shoot over deer that react if they are closer. Sighting in 2 inches low at ranges you have a pin, puts dead on hold. It's nice out of a tree to realize you just put the pin on it and cut drive versus trying to figure out where to hold with the drop definitely coming and, the certainty of hitting high at steep angles. If it weren't so steep, I wouldn't do it.
I’ve done it and it works. I also shoot a pendulum and have for years.
I aim accordingly. If deer is jumpy I aim 1 inch above belly line. Otherwise I aim 1 inch behind the elbow for broadside or inline with the elbow on the body depending on deer position. I never had an arrow fly over but I spined one. The one I spined dropped with the chest into the ground trying to take off and then rolled over as it was paralyzed. A second arrow brought peace and restored the silence quickly.
Pat - I would expect the distance between you and the deer would make a difference. Inside of 10 yards, do they really have enough time to react faster than the time it takes for the speed of sound to travel 10 yards? At 30 yards, the noise of the shot is more quiet and less alarming, but the deer has more time to react. What have your video observations been at various distances?
Must be a Mathews thing.....
I like my arrow to hit exactly where I am aiming on the target. Not that 2.5 inches is a big difference. Just more confident when I know I am dead on.
In theory I support the idea. However, I would have a difficukt time changing my set up for various animals. I try to hunt all year and whitetail are only a few weeks a year.
I applaud the article as many visitors here seem to struggle with the issue of string jump.
Living in the south the issue was always front and center especially on very close shots.
My sighting is contrary to Pats as I try to set my pins so I impact about 2 inches HIGH.
My two main reasons for doing this is
1.I can move my aim point even further down on an animal bringing the brisket line into the sight picture for a better aimpoint reference.
2.Sighting in “Hot “ helps to combat the fact that the rate of fall steadily increases as we move down range so the margin for error is worst for underestimating range vs overestimating.
Moving my aimpoint closer to the brisket using HOT (2-3 yard ) pins seems to work the best for me personally for whiteails.
Other factors are geography,deer in the Midwest simply do not flinch as much
So here is my arrow placement from 5, 10, 15, and 20 yards and shooting off the ground using my 20 yards pin. Not much difference except the 5 yard shot is slightly low.
So I might expect that most of the "high" hits on deer, are coming from tree stand shooting. I agree with Milnrick's reply above, proper bow shooting, bending at the waist, from a tree stand is important compared from shooting off the ground. And then picking a lower spot on the animal. Anyway , interesting info from all. Paul
broad side shot at ground level compared with a "broadside" shot from a tree stand.
broad side shot at ground level compared with a "broadside" shot from a tree stand.
So...according to your reaction video clip we need to sight in 3-4" high if we're trying to hit a squirrel in the head?
Know your anatomy and aim for the center of the heart, not half way up on the deer. The heart sits low in the chest cavity. Spine is much lower from the top line than some realize, lots of backstrap up there.
Interesting, I too adjust my sights for hunting but not in the same manner. I always thought the biggest contributor to missing or bad hits was the 35 yard range because most bow hunters guess closer or further out. Several years ago a started sighting my first pin in at 25 because I know when a deer is closer. The closer he is I just aim lower, 2 to 4 inches lower. But what this gave me is a first pin in the kill zone from 1 to 34, maybe 35 yards. My second pin is dead in at 35, 2 to 3 inches low at 30 and 2 to 3 inches high at 40 but sill in the kill zone out to 45. The third pin works the same, so what I'm saying is I slightly overlap my pins. It works for me, I haven't missed a deer in 20 years though I have had deer dip because they were extra cautious coming in and maybe had 2 to 4% high hits over the years but I'll take 96% to 98% kill ratio. It's not the best when taking the bow out for competition shooting, but it works in hunting situations.
I also agree with milnrick, I too put my arm straight out, choose my pin and center it, then slowly bend at the waist, rotate my upper body and place the pin where I want it. Once there, I never try to see how perfectly I can hold the pin on a exact spot, and release. It's a rhythm thing I've worked on and I always spend time practicing so it becomes my natural aiming method. My first couple weeks of practice is mostly that not caring if my shots are dead in. Usually within a couple times practicing I see the groups getting closer together, that's what lets me know hunting season is on.
I usually aim low chest on deer
Bottom 3rd of lungs. Problem solved.
Very solid advice...that works. highly recommend, especially for treestand hunting whitetails (which is 90%+).
The other technique that helps for tree stands is I try and place the tree stands so the majority of shots can be taken while sitting down.....a lot less movement and makes the downward shot "easier" and thus improving accuracy of the shot.
Won't be long!
Seems like a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if you have reasonable reasoning skills.
Growing up my dad drew a line on top of the bottom 3rd of the 3D target I had to practice shooting at that spot as opposed to the 10 ring and it made a pretty easy transition.
I won't second guess you. You've killed 300+ whitetails in 41 years, I've killed maybe 40 in 21 years. :)
I don't use your system. I can't see myself doing it. I feel like my system works fairly well for me. I always aim really low, and feel like I struggle more with low hits than high ones. I've recovered a couple deer that I shot with high angle shots through the scapula, but most of my recent deer it seem like I hit that front leg bone and skip off it, or break it. If I sighted in low, I just don't think it would work with me.
Your success speaks for itself though. So I can't argue with you :)
So you build in 2" low then make a bad shot and hit anther 3" lower. Not liking the results. I switched to a single pin a few years ago to get away from gapping between yardages. Deer hate my switch:)
One part of the equation that should be considered is the deer's ear position. If the deer's ear is cupped in your direction it might react quicker than than if the ear is rotated away from you. The before the shot in the illustration shows the deer's ear cupped at the archer.
Aim bottom of chest & if drop any 10 ring is not clean miss. been working for 50+ years!
First of all if you've killed over 300 deer u must hunt out of State a lot or poach.2nd thing is I would never adjust my site 2 inches low.. I like a high hit from a treestand.most bowhunter hunt from a treestand.i set one pin at 25 yards.its in the kill zone close and will hang on in the kill zone out to 35 yards.even farther if the deer drops.if you aim low at 20 yards out of a understand your in trouble.dpnt no how you could of shot 300 deer with that tactic.seems fishy to me.just saying
I don't use bow sights but I do sight my shotgun in 2.5' to the right and generally only shoot birds going left to right by aiming right at them. I can make a right to left shot if I have time to turn my shotgun upside down.
Seriously, if you have an issue not being able to aim low, this method could be a good idea. If you don't have an issue with that, it seems like just adding something unnecessary to the mix of things that can cause a bow shot to go bad.
That said, I shoot trad and if I hit within 2" of where I want, the story will probably be "I watched my arrow disappear right at that hair I was looking at" :^)
To each their own, but I think I'd deliberately aim 2" low.
Good advice. I think distance plays a vital role in this. My stands are set up for shots within 25 yards via shooting lanes and not sure if the 2' low would matter, I'd have to see video in "slow mo". Further shots, 30+ I can understand the deer's reaction which is natural (duck and turn before taking off).
I've taken many deer that were almost directly below me. I shoot a 55#recurve and clocked the arrow at 196fps. My aiming point is to the rear of the hump caused by the front legs. Every deer I've shot from this distance drops, with the sometimes result, that there is no exit wound at the bottom of the deer. I switched back from three blade to two blade broadheads and again I am getting bottom exit wounds.
I use a crossbow. I am sitting and usually on a rest. I have the problem of instinctively wanting to drop the bow,,and yes it is a BOW,,,guys and gals,,,I drop the bow to see what is happening. Hard not to. This quick drop of equipment can influence the arrow flight and drop the hit low. You have to tell yourself over and over,,,"Hold Steady",,follow through. Do not drop. so a high hit is not my particular problem. Low hit is. But to each their own...from the loneranger
the bowhunter sounds exactly like the kind of guy I’d want to hang around.
looks like x-man,
is reasonably dead on with his reasoning regarding this issue.
Your deer must be different than ours. I aim where I want to hit at 20 and in and 9 times out of 10 the deer is there when the arrow is. I've had a few suck down at the shot, but never enough to matter. If you aim properly and hit 2.5 inches high it won't matter on a deer sized lung area. My experience is that 30 yards is where things start getting sketchy on whitetails. I had one doe spin so hard at 32 yards that I missed one time on a slightly quartering away shot with her head down feeding.
In some states like NJ, the limit on anterless deer is UNLIMITED. So I'd be careful about throwing around the "poacher" label. I believe that Cn, where Pat is from is the same. TMBB
I believe a great deal of the "ducking" by whitetails depends on the area. In areas with short seasons they are way less likely to duck. In areas with long seasons (more hunting pressure) they are more likely to duck.
There is no doubt that Pat's deer in CT are hunted for a long season and have learned to duck. And, going to a hunting ranch, with a lot of hunters passing through, will also educate the deer so that that they are more skittish. States with long seasons and liberal limits will have the most skittish deer that are programed to duck when they hear a bow.
Also, the bow's noise is a major factor. The last 10 or 15 that I've shot with my recurve never reacted. It's a very quiet bow and heavy arrow. In fact, several of them reacted to the arrow bouncing through the leaves after passing through. But last year I shot 4 with a compound. All were 22-32 yards. The first two ducked down about 3-4". Then I put silencers on my string. The next two never ducked.
How many archers here can say with complete honesty they are good enough shots to be able to CONSISTANTLY take shot after shot and place fixed blade broad heads AT WILL 2.5 inches apart at ranges of 20, 30 and 40 yards and beyond? I'm certainly not among those that can while aiming at a bright high contrasting target dot let alone the featureless bland color of a deer's vital zone. Am I misunderstanding or missing something or are I correct in thinking IMHO sounds like an opportunity to use up more ink and paper than the delineation of practical advise.
You are missing something. If deer react to the shot, it increases the likely hold you are going to hit bad or miss altogether. Let’s get this out there. It’s obvious some here hunt different Behaving animals then others. It’s even obvious some talk more about hunting then they actually do hunt. But, nobody is doing this to be different or to print stories about. They do it because it works and ups their odds tremendously.
A lot of people really have a hard time grasping just how quick a whitetail deer is. And, act as if very successful hunters who have killed a bunch, are full of it when they describe the phenomenon. SMH.
DMT, sounds to me like you need to practice more. I'm far from the best shot around bowsite. Hell I'm sure I'm nowhere near the top 100. However i can do exactly what you're asking without too much effort. I'm sure plenty can't, but no doubt plenty can.
WV, you maybe a classless D but you are dead on in your post above! :) Haha
Pat has killed WAY more whitetails than me so, obviously, he's a poacher! lol!
This is equivalent (IMO) to setting the clock ahead so you are never late. I had a girlfriend that used to set the clock ahead,15 min in the bedroom, 10 min in the kitchen and 5 min in the car. The only thing she did was get used to being wrong all the time. I keep my pin dead on and always aim low accordingly.
"First of all if you've killed over 300 deer u must hunt out of State a lot or poach"
My God man! You mean he actually goes to other states and HUNTS? Rather see somebody be a poacher than cheat like that...... heheheheh...... gotta love the bowsite..... if you stick with it you can expand your horizons.....
TD, some states have pretty liberal bag limits. I used to live in Mn. In the twin cities metro area, you could kill as many does as you want, one or 101, just keep buying tags.
As to theOP question, I do not aim 2” low, but aim for the exit hole.
about 20 years ago, i did this for awhile and it worked fine. sort of.
what i found to be better is what i have done since. i aim 2" below the body line and 2" behind the front leg.
the result is always a clean miss or a clean kill. i have not spined a deer since doing this and i have missed very few. missed 3 to my best recollect.
Yeah, I know..... mine is fairly liberal..... no tags.... either sex... no limit.... 365 day seasons.....
I was taught, from a treestand, to put the pin where you want the arrow to exit and this has worked very well for me.
I always come up from below when aiming, and adjusted my pin housing so it is about 2" higher and now my arrows are all grouping in the 12 ring rather than always being just below... Good tip, its already doing me some good
I’m also in the I want to know where my arrow is going and I’ll make the decision time of if I think the deer is wound
I do what JTV does, almost exactly. But Read something suggesting 27yds, and have done that now for several years. I've been thinking of going to 23, because i've found the distance to be overkill the past 5 -6 years and feel that would work just as well for me. But the end point is knowing you, your gear and adjusting accordingly.
I dont see the controversy though. In essence, you are sighting in for something like 17, 27, 37 vs say 20, 30, 40; because it helps you hit where you want as consistently as possible, and that's the most important thing in bowhunting. So, well done! I'm filing it away as an option for the future. Especially as my kids get old enough to try hunting on their own.
I just hang my stands 2" lower.
I've killed a pile of deer myself. I've found that I want my pins sighted in for my exact range I want it. I usually start at 30 yards for my first pin. I always shoot for the heart. I'll aim lower if the deer is super on edge. I've noticed that the farther away the deer is, the less they react. I'm not sure I've had a deer react over 35 yards. I've also decided to take the first shot I'm 100% comfortable with. I'd rather shoot a totally relaxed deer slightly quartering towards than an alert broadside deer.
Just watched a chasing November episode where Winke shoots just under a giant he calls “Skinny” thinking it would drop. Whoops.
Mentally it’s easier for me to take if a deer does something crazy and dodges the arrow. Then it’s just like hats off to the deer. But if I purposely shoot under a deer expecting it to do something and I miss, yowza that’s a tough one to take.
2” is a weird amount, cause if they drop they drop more than 2, and if they don’t then you need nothing. But I think it depends on geography. If in your neck of the woods you can count on them dropping then have at er
Can’t argue with success, if it workks for you then use it.
Great opinion right there from “the bow hunter” ‘s response, yah right on dude, you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about...
There is no problem doing this if you limit your shots to 20 yds. To move your point of impact at 20yds is a substantial movement up of your housing. By moving your entire sight housing UP to hit 2" low at 20yds, your 30yd pin will be hitting up to 4" low and your 40yd pin will be up to 8" low.
Ever heard of just adjusting one pin at a time? Don’t let this get to complicated. Just use the nugget God gave you man. If you are going to set multiple pins like this, then you have to get the pin location correct. That means you sight in by the pin. SMH
Also. If given the chance, I'll never stop a deer. I'd much rather shoot them walking
Very interesting article. I would have to say after the way you explained it, it seems to me to be a very practical way to approach sighting in a bow.
I agree with sticksender’s post in its entirety... does seem to react more than bucks, however bucks vary greatly depending on the time of the year and what they are doing. I always shoot for the heart now and it seems to work well. I would say 8/10 deer will react under 25 yards... Years ago I shot for the center lung and found myself in a couple of high-hit situations that drove me absolutely nuts. Only bad things happen with high hits, with the exception of the spinal tap.
I do not agree with that. My top pin is 20 yards and I'm usually in tight quarters so most of my shots are around 25 yards. My pin is always placed on the heart! I'm not going to say ive never hit high, because it happens. But I find if the deer reacts and drops I will hit lungs and if the deer doesn't drop it's a heart shot. You really need to study the deer's body language. A deer nice and relaxed may drop but a deer nervous and on alert will almost always drop. It's just their natural reaction to duck before they flee. They are not ducking the arrow! It's just a figure of speech! Happy hunting boys and girls!
Shawn that's a good point if you are using multiple pins!
Through the years I've found that especially out of a treestand It's better for me to be a little low. Deer have a natural instinct to drop 1/3 of their bodies height when they are startled. I call it launch mode... this depends on a lot of variables. Are you on the ground, treestand, still hunting with shots at various angles, quartering shots are they moving, etc..? And depending on equipment I've hunted with long bow/recurve (instinctive), four wheel Jennings early compound, newer speed bows and have had whitetail jump the string inside of 25 yards or "launch mode me" with all of them. So my answer is yes but I've never put a number to it like 2.5" but built it into my shooting mechanics and thoughts through the years.. Oh I'd gladly trade some of the ma-ma-misses for some of my harvests that's for sure..
Our big Canadian deer seem to duck less than others and also have much bigger vitals than eastern or southern deer, so maybe the same thing is happening, but 2" simply is now within the margin for error. I also find that a feeding deer will "duck" much more than a heads up deer. When swinging their head up, the body seems to go lower. I now much prefer to shoot at deer with heads up than heads down. I also find if they are heads up they are almost more likely to simply spin their head to find the sound, whereas a deer with it's head down almost "freaks out" more trying to locate the sound and is more likely to spring to bolt. For these reasons I'd rather shoot at either a walking deer, or a deer with head up, even though a feeding deer seems less "aware of you." Also, simply my personal preference and anecdotal evidence though nowhere near as vast as Pat's.
Either way, being 96% recovery in the last 10 years is impressive, so congrats on that.
I have been bowhunting whitetails w/ a bow since 1985. In all those years I have had two primary hunting bows: High Country Sniper and a Bowtech Commander. On both bows I have had only one pin all those years. High Country Sniper shot flat out to 18yds; the Bowtech Commander is flat to 22 yds. I have always aimed for the lower third of the chest with the thought that if they do "jumps the string" I get a center chest shot, if not, I get a heart shot. My results are much like the authors in successful kills using this method. There is no way I would deliberately adjust my pins to be 2" low. Just aim lower. I practice at 10, 20, and 30 yds. Bow shoots the same POI at 10 & 20 and 3" low at 30. I just hold my pin accordingly up or down the deer's chest to accommodate the yardage. If its 25 -30 just hold pin in center of chest. Easy-peasy!
Ive got the same experience as brwndg. Always, have deliberately aimed low since loosing my best ever deer to a high shot in 1989.
Ok Pat, I'm convinced. I've adjusted my sight, but if I miss......
Always loved your sense of humor. Seriously though. after I read the article I thought of the times where I had a problem, that led to a long track or lost a deer. Most all of them were because I hit high. So I'll give it a whirl.
Good point Pat, I suppose. I dont ever focus on the actual point of impact I want (when hunting) and so I dont have these problems. That said... I can see persons who focus on 3D targets and such being unconscious (as you were in Alberta) of anything but the 10 ring, when excited.
If deer are constantly jumping the string on you then I suspect you may need to upgrade your string dampening system.
A couple of thoughts on this.
First, for me....I used to hit high for a couple of reasons. One of course was nerves/loss of focus but the second was I realized my error of sighting in on the ground and then shooting from the stand. My POI would be high. It could be a form thing but since I've begun to sight in from the tree stand (vs on the ground) years ago I can't think of any deer I've lost (the Rage helps too!). The other correction I realized I needed to make was AFR.....Aim....Focus....Release. I repeat that to myself as soon as the deer comes in and as I draw back looking at the deer/target. It seems to work for me and has become a built in habit now.
""I go back to the 20 yard mark and adjust the entire Black Gold sight housing UP until I am hitting exactly 2” LOW at 20 yards. There is no need to adjust individual pins, I move the entire housing which adjusts the 30 and 40 pins as well.""
Second thought.....putting on my "sighting in the rifle hat"....wouldn't you have to individually adjust the 30 and 40 yard pins to hit 2" low? I have never tried that with a bow, but if all pins are on and you then adjust the sight UP for the 20 yard pin to hit 2" low, you would also have to take into account the longer time-effect of gravity and loss of arrow speed as the distance increases to 30 yards and 40 yards and 50 yards. It might be slight but still would need to be taken into account.....yes....no???
Sighting in 2.5 inches low is just creating a problem to fix a problem. If you intentionally sight in 2.5 inches low and aim for the heart and the deer does not drop, you will shoot under it. Imagine missing the buck of a lifetime because you intentionally sighted in your bow to be inaccurate.
The resolution for this problem is simple. Sight in dead on and aim for the heart. If the deer does not drop, you get a heart shot. If it drops 8-10 inches, you get a double lung shot. Either way, dead deer.
This information came to light in the 1980's. We did that long ago. It is good to reiterate it though, for the new folks. It was first captured in, i think, " Bowhunting October Whitetails." If not that one, it was one of Ben Lee's vids.
@JL - You definitely do not need to move your pins individually. If you move the whole housing then you keep the pin spacing the same. Every distance will change the same amount.
Just my opinion, but I think maybe shooting paper targets on level ground gets us in a mindset or rut where we start thinking of everything we shoot at as a 2D item and then carry over that line of thinking to our game animals. If you switch your way of thinking from shooting the deer as a target to shooting the deer as a walking set of 3D vitals, you can't miss your goal of sticking one at least close to through the boiler room. Thinking like this takes care of elevation, angles, uphill, downhill and quartering shots. Thinking along these lines also reveals when or when not to take a shot. You can judge based on limitations in your equipment or shooting ability because you will know with experience if you're a lower poundage shooter or are shooting at distances where you've lost some energy, or perhaps taking a quartering shot that's passing through too much animal is best to pass up for another day. Or that a very vertical shot down on a big animal is just too much risk of hitting bone or not reaching vitals depending on your setup.
Well said, glad I get to be the 100th post. :)
treestands? for what? i hunt from the ground, aim straight up (higher or lower depending on distance)- sighted in at 25yds dead on, 1 pin.