One tag and too many helpers
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
altitude sick 20-Jan-19
cnelk 20-Jan-19
altitude sick 20-Jan-19
BULELK1 20-Jan-19
ELKMAN 20-Jan-19
DanaC 20-Jan-19
Trial153 20-Jan-19
1boonr 20-Jan-19
Surfbow 20-Jan-19
JL 20-Jan-19
DanaC 20-Jan-19
cath8r 20-Jan-19
Topgun 30-06 20-Jan-19
Trial153 20-Jan-19
WV Mountaineer 20-Jan-19
LBshooter 20-Jan-19
Ziek 20-Jan-19
gobbler 20-Jan-19
Trial153 20-Jan-19
Ucsdryder 20-Jan-19
JSW 20-Jan-19
Trial153 20-Jan-19
HDE 20-Jan-19
Lee 20-Jan-19
Ambush 20-Jan-19
Hans 1 20-Jan-19
APauls 20-Jan-19
ElkNut1 20-Jan-19
TXHunter 20-Jan-19
Owl 20-Jan-19
Ambush 20-Jan-19
Shaft 20-Jan-19
Quinn @work 20-Jan-19
crankn101 21-Jan-19
Mossyhorn 21-Jan-19
Zim 21-Jan-19
ki-ke 21-Jan-19
Mule Power 21-Jan-19
Ambush 21-Jan-19
YZF-88 21-Jan-19
skookumjt 21-Jan-19
Kurt 21-Jan-19
Ziek 21-Jan-19
coelker 21-Jan-19
Rick 3 21-Jan-19
sdkhunter 21-Jan-19
Ollie 21-Jan-19
jdee 21-Jan-19
JSW 21-Jan-19
Ziek 21-Jan-19
Dikndirt 21-Jan-19
Aces11 21-Jan-19
20-Jan-19
Just reading a hunting article where the hunter had 8 relatives and friends helping to find and keep tabs on a specific animal. Where do you draw the line on fair chase. Also, it seems to degrade the experience for the actual tag holders with so many people running around and perched on every peak glassing. Should states limit how many people can assist. Possibly issue helper tags each tag holder could then give to friends. This isn’t a guided vs DIY issue. I see more DIY with a gang of people in camp and in the hills than guided.

From: cnelk
20-Jan-19
Sounds like someone is butthurt because they dont have any friends

20-Jan-19
:^) good one.

From: BULELK1
20-Jan-19
Play nice Brad!! haha

I think it is more about how hard it is to draw a tag and when ya do, a lot of friends and family want to tag along for the experience and to be part of the overall success.

Not for me as I enjoy Solo or maybe 1 other person with me...…...more of a she than a he-------->

Good luck, Robb

From: ELKMAN
20-Jan-19
Depends on the species somewhat, but for me I would never want more 1-3 cooks in the kitchen so to speak at any one given time. To many people pulling in to many directions con volutes the experience and dilutes the hunt. On Elk I hunt with one person. Period

From: DanaC
20-Jan-19
If you've got 8 helpers you can only claim one ninth of the credit for a successful hunt. Hope your ego is tough enough!

From: Trial153
20-Jan-19
Buddy of mine seen this on a good tag in AZ last year. Said it was the biggest cluster he has ever witnessed, said every tag holder had gang of people spread out glassing for them. Said it was big disappoint drawing the tag after many years. He said it Nothing to do with the quality of the animals of the hunt but it the quantity of the hunt suck.

From: 1boonr
20-Jan-19
Wouldn’t these hunts with helpers be called dio. “Do it ourselves “

From: Surfbow
20-Jan-19
Hey Trial, how many beers did you have before you typed that? :)

From: JL
20-Jan-19
That sounds like the situation with that real big elk shot a few years back called "spider".

From: DanaC
20-Jan-19
Not sure this differs much from having twenty-five trail cameras out monitoring one deer.

From: cath8r
20-Jan-19
Excellent point DanaC!

From: Topgun 30-06
20-Jan-19
From: Surfbow 20-Jan-19 Hey Trial, how many beers did you have before you typed that? :)

***That was exactly what I thought when I read that mess of a post, LOL!

From: Trial153
20-Jan-19
Surfbow lol, I need a few beers !!!fat fingers on my phone and cold hands because I am out in the storm all morning trying to catch up a lost hound.

20-Jan-19
I’d want the right friends there. As far as numbers, don’t know because if the friends were right, they’d understand their role and would be a huge plus to experience it with.

I’ve had several people invite me on hunts off this board. All are very accomplished hunters. I’d imagine any or all would fit that mold. As far as my buds from here, not sure as we just don’t have the experience like guys that do this type stuff a lot.

FWIaw, my dream hunt is anything but white tails. :^)

From: LBshooter
20-Jan-19
This is just the way "hunting" has evolved. Get the biggest and best animal by all means possible. If you have 20 people out looking for the best and you are called over to shoot it, did you hunt it? I would say that you were on a canned hunt, in the sense that someone pointed at the animal and said shoot it. Now, the tag holder/hunter, should have the courage to tell everyone to take a hike elsewhere and that he/she would do the scouting and hunting.

From: Ziek
20-Jan-19
It can be a real problem, especially on those hard to draw areas. It's another form of "slob" hunting. Someone who's only concern is for his own "success". Most of us expect that when we draw that limited tag, available for a handful of hunters, after applying for 15 or more years, the area won't be overrun by other "hunters". Unfortunately, that's not usually the case.

From: gobbler
20-Jan-19
On the other hand, if someone has waited 20 years to get a tag and only had x number of days to hunt due to season length wouldn’t they do all they could legally to be successful?

However, it has become a problem in many areas because of the limited number of tags and has the very real potential of interfering with other hunters that have the tag as well. I’m not sure what the answer is because most of it is public land and people have a right to be there. I got kinda screwed up on my Bighorn hunt in WY by a group of hikers.

In WV for dog bear hunting everyone in the “party of hunters” have to be licensed and have a bear tag. But they are otc , so that’s comparing apples to oranges.

From: Trial153
20-Jan-19
Mike your thinking? Thats a first for you, did you fall out of your walker and hit your head?

From: Ucsdryder
20-Jan-19
I’ve never been in a position where someone has said go up .8 miles into that canyon, look across to the other side, and behind the 2nd tree is a big whatever animal. Arm chair quarterback...I’m out. I’ll do it myself.

From: JSW
20-Jan-19
It's legal but I'm disgusted with it. Every time I see a picture of a dead animal with 8 guys lined up behind it, I automatically have less respect for the hunter. That's just the way I feel. Sure, every one of the guys friends was excited to help out but does it really take a village to outsmart a single animal? I understand why, but at what point does it degrade the hunt and disrespect the animal and everyone else who has a tag. It is everywhere in Utah and Arizona.

While hunting bison this year, there were probably an average of 6 people with each hunter. One guy had 8 buddies and 4 razors helping him out. Most people had at least 3 groups scouting during the hunt. It was survival of the fittest.

I was getting ready to start a stalk and a guy drove up on his razor. He said "My friend is already on those bison". I was the first one down that road after it snowed and he came in behind me. He had spotted the herd from the main road and tried to get me to go away while his buddy drove up from where ever he was at the time. I just laughed, said "nice try buddy" and started my stalk. It's all about sportsmanship and fair chase. This practice has lost sight of that.

It was also an issue on my AZ elk hunt this year. Some guys wouldn't attempt a stalk without a radio in their ear and a couple of guys guiding them in. You get a once in a lifetime tag and you have to worry about non hunters more than other hunters and you will feel the same way. What happened to the concept of hunting???? For me, the hunt is way more important than killing the biggest one out there.

From: Trial153
20-Jan-19
Well, Jim and I are in agreement about something. This is at the point of absurdity. Where the hell does this end?

From: HDE
20-Jan-19
"That sounds like the situation with that real big elk shot a few years back called "spider"."

Anything associated with Mossback is a cluster...

The new 'party hunting' today is filled with flat-brim-Insta-hero-hunters.

From: Lee
20-Jan-19
Certainly don’t like it. You draw a limited entry tag and there are more guys without tags than with? The whole reason we apply for LE hunts is fewer people and better hunting - pretty much defeats the purpose.

Lee

From: Ambush
20-Jan-19
I can understand the holder of a good tag wants make every effort to fill it. I also see where the hunter and family/close friends would want to share the experience.

But then the rule should be that every helper has to be within line of sight or shouting distance of the tag holder at all times. I would walk right past a "scout" that wasn't with the hunter, whether he was keeping tabs on an animal or not. You wouldn't be interfering with his hunt, because he's not hunting. It all comes down to the hunt party's sense of fair play. No respect given, none returned.

From: Hans 1
20-Jan-19
Really no chance of regulating this on public land. I have spent a ton of time helping on AZ hunts always guys scouting for later hunts during the early archery season. If the terrain/area is suitable to glassing than the party style hunt will occur. If some one wants a different experience the find country that doesn’t lend itself to glassing. It is getting crazy when there are other groups so close on the glassing hill that you have to text instead of using the radio.

From: APauls
20-Jan-19
I like Ambush’s line of reasoning. Except I’d change the whole shouting/line of sight thing to 100 yards. Next thing is you’ve got guys on mountain peaks “in line of sight” from each other.

There was a time when I was upset when I didn’t shoot the biggest racked deer I saw that year. When I got over that hunting became a lot more fun. I feel for guys that have that need for the biggest animal and nothing but. It’s weird because I’d still consider myself a trophy hunter in all reality but I don’t have that “stop at nothing to get it” attitude anymore.

From: ElkNut1
20-Jan-19
X2 Usc, DIY or nothing, let the cards fall where they may!

ElkNut/Paul

From: TXHunter
20-Jan-19
The “DIY or nothing” crowd is simply the mirror image of the “I’m bringing 35 guys to scour the unit” crowd.

Both are extremists looking to salve their egos.

From: Owl
20-Jan-19
I'd be worried about the meat split with so many contributors. :)

From: Ambush
20-Jan-19
APuals, how about we change to “ the helper must be within the tag holders affective bow range and can be required to prove it by shooting at the helper”.

If he misses, they get fined. If he is successful, the hunt may continue after the ambulance has left.

From: Shaft
20-Jan-19
I lived this nightmare this year on my LE deer hunt. I had another bowhunter show up in the same 3 canyons that I had pinpointed for my hunts only he showed up with 8 spotters. They ruined 4 different stalks of mine where I was closing in for a shot and then here comes one of his spotters tromping over the hill. They all had their binoculars and spotting scopes along with their radios walking him into his bedded deer. I know that he had 6 different shots that they told me about that he missed. Additionally there were multiple mornings where either he or his spotters walked through the area that I was hunting and who knows what they kicked out that I otherwise could have made a move on. It was so frustrating. They camped next door to me and were quite friendly and I tried to reciprocate sociality but honestly the last straw was when they asked me to stay out of a particular canyon because they were working a big buck. After I obliged only to have one of his spotters blow a deer out that I was working and for him to march right up to me and say, "Sorry, I guess I messed you up huh!" By the end of the hunt, it was all that I could do to not be uncivilized towards them. On the last day of my hunt I was moving in on a respectable buck just minutes from possibly closing the deal when all of a sudden 5 deer came sprinting from the bottom of the canyon taking my targeted buck with them. Sure enough here came my "favorite hunter" (comment is dripping with sarcasm) who was frustrated because he either missed for the 7th time or couldn't find his targeted buck - I don't know for sure but if I would have spoken to him I might have done something that I would have regretted for the rest of my life- I ended up heading back to camp, packing up and getting out of there. Mind you this all took place over the course of a 4 week season and he was there most of it. On weekends he had the full crew and during the week he had 1 or 2 guys. Anyhow, I like to hunt alone and normally prefer the remote back country but due to work schedule and distances that was not an option on this particular tag. I have issue with what I witnessed and experienced. The whole thought of having that many spotters and the footprint that they left that spilled over to affect my hunt was absolutely thoughtless towards their fellow sportsmen. Truly very self-serving and selfish. Not what you might think of when you define a "Bowhunter" or "Sportsman". Being nice, or kind back at camp isn't enough to balance out the thoughtlessness of your actions in the field.

From: Quinn @work
20-Jan-19
Shaft you definitely got shafted. Sorry to hear about your hunt.

I get a good laugh out of all the trophy photos with 8 camo'd up dudes sitting 5 feet behind the "shooters" 160" muley trying to make it look like a 180" deer.

From: crankn101
21-Jan-19
The lines between fair chase and not fair chase are getting more blurred every year.

From: Mossyhorn
21-Jan-19
It seems like most states use to have laws that prohibited the practice of guiding hunters into animals with the use of radios? Seems now that it's common practice! I agree though, the posse hunting is taking opportunity away from other tag holders.

From: Zim
21-Jan-19
This makes me recall my 2nd elk hunt ever, solo in the Utah Book Cliffs 1997. I was not aware of these big troupes at the time. That hunt I followed a good bull w/6 cows out of their bedding area chased them up 3 ridges until they stopped to feed. Crawled into range and made my shot. Within an hour I had like ~10 locals interrogating me, including two who glassed my entire stalk from 3 miles across the canyon, from two locations. Said I shot their bull. Luckily I sealed the deal so quick, my actual hunt was unaffected. Had I not been in great physical shape that would not have been the case.

Since that time I have run into many such posses. Very annoying especially the spotters that drive right in front of me, up on a wide open ridge top, or in closed access areas and glass without even removing their arses off their ATV's. The more premium the unit, the better the chance the folks I run into have no tag.

These days I am older & slower but as Hans recommended, I try to hunt thicker or wilderness areas to overcome this obstacle. I also use tree stands over water more instead of running-n-gunning, and get to my setups very early to beat the competition. Has worked well.

From: ki-ke
21-Jan-19
How the H could you legislate and regulate what constitutes a "spotter" ? I am in full agreement that radio assistance should and could be regulated.

Personally, I would not apply in units where this is common practice. I would have extreme difficulty maintaining my good neighbor image...

From: Mule Power
21-Jan-19
To each his own. If that’s what a guy wants to do it’s his buyas far as I’m concerned.

From: Ambush
21-Jan-19
Mule, it's his business until it interferes with someone else's business. That's the rub.

From: YZF-88
21-Jan-19
Watch any YouTube video of Utah deer hunts. You'll always see an ear piece on the guys stalking. Wish it was illegal. I run into them every year. As long as we're wishing for things that won't happen, I wish YouTube would die or people would stop posting videos of the deer I chase (complete with scenery showing the world where to go)!!! Found some more videos last night!

From: skookumjt
21-Jan-19
When I started hunting using radios was very closely regulated. They couldn't be used for anything to do with the hunt. When and why did that change? I never agreed with it and now people are taking it to the extreme.

From: Kurt
21-Jan-19
As Jim W said above, more of an issue in UT (bison and deer) and AZ (elk) than anywhere else I have hunted, with up to 15 in a party with one bison tag. NV (desert bighorn) had big crews as well.

In general I found the people pretty friendly, courteous and helpful (maybe felt sorry for a bowhunter out there in rifle season....bison and desert sheep).

Anyway, I didn’t care for all the people around but most were gone after the first few days of season in my limited experience.

From: Ziek
21-Jan-19
With everyone using smart phones, and coverage improving all the time, banning radios wouldn't help much, and enforcement for phones would be impossible. This is more an ethics issue, than a lawful issue. Problem is, too many think that if it's legal it's OK. If more hunters made good ethical decisions, we wouldn't have (need) so many regulations.

From: coelker
21-Jan-19
This is an absolute non issue. There is nothing wrong with people helping others out, it does not matter at all. Who cares and why does it matter if I have a tag and I have friends helping? Why does it matter if my daughter draws a great tag if her grandfather, mother, brother, father and her 2 uncles all come to enjoy camp and look?

There is a line at paying for scouting services etc. But I can bet you that when I cash in my 20+ points on a trophy unit I will not be alone flying solo. I do that all the time in OTC units, when the tag is special the hunt should be special. What is more special than sharing a camp with extended family and good friends?

From: Rick 3
21-Jan-19
The problem is that you think you just have "friends helping you" but in reality they are screwing up hunts for others that have been hunting just as hard and waiting just as long to get a tag as you have.

Your "friends" are what we call in NM hunter harrasment. Being in a unit without a tag durong hunting season and disturbing game is illegal. I don't care what you call it you are WRONG!

Get your people to stay with you and help you and that is fine, but when they are "Scouting", i.e. walking through a game rich area screwing everyone up you and your "friends" are harrasing game and screwing other hunters.

From: sdkhunter
21-Jan-19
Rick3 x2!

It’s a huge problem in some areas for sure - there is nothing more frustrating than having a stalk/setup messed up and then finding out they are just scouting for there buddy... you think about it, someone brings 8 people that’s ridiculous really - especially if they are out in the field. imagine if every one brought an average of 3 extra for a 500 tag unit - that’s 1500 extra people out wandering around... I don’t have a problem with bringing along some friends/extras - but people need to make sure they are being curtious to others....

From: Ollie
21-Jan-19
Most guys will never draw a tag like this. Being part of the hunt "team" allows them to participate in the hunt to a limited extent. From the tag drawer's point of view, this is likely a once in a lifetime hunt and they want to maximize their chance for success with extra spotters/camp help. I can understand the frustration of hunting solo and having to deal with a "team" that is hunting the same area.

From: jdee
21-Jan-19
Some guys seem to want the critter filmed , followed and pin pointed before they ever get there, then they just shoot it . Never seemed like real hunting to me. No interest in hunting like that if you can even call it hunting.

From: JSW
21-Jan-19
It's fairly obvious that those who have benefited from this type of hunting are all for it while those of us who have been screwed over by it are not. It really is all about sportsmanship and respect. I've seen instances where non hunters sit at a water hole, pretending to be hunting, in order to keep other hunters away. They even go as far as chasing a big buck away while another hunter is making a stalk. They always say, "sorry, I didn't realize you were hunting here". That is hunter harassment. Sadly, it's impossible to legislate morality and ethics.

From: Ziek
21-Jan-19
I don't think we have a problem with friends/family SHARING your hunt. They can help tend camp, or ACCOMPANY you in any number you like. If you want to stalk with a dozen people, have at it. What is not appropriate is having them fan out to scout the entire area, and then call you in for the final stalk/shot. And worse, warning other hunters away until you arrive on the scene.

From: Dikndirt
21-Jan-19
I can relate to this problem in a very personal way. I used to bow hunt a popular Utah area in the 70"s. There were no elk to speak of back then so it was a very productive deer unit....world famous even. Slowly the Elk moved in and the deer herd began to go down hill. Utah DWR made it a trophy draw area and kept the number of Elk permits low. as the trophy Elk hunting got better and better, permit holders started bringing the Posse with them and many people were exposed to the unit and would see some nice bucks in their pursuit of Wapiti. Remote parts of the unit became crowded with archery and dedicated hunters {thats a whole nother story} I got disgusted and changed units, starting over in another area where the cycle started again. Elk tags became a once in a lifetime hunt so permit holders would hire guides who scoured the units with spotters, or the permit holder would bring a dozen or more family and friends to help. It has become a huge problem for guys like me who detest this type of hunting. I am now starting over again in a unit that has a very low number of Elk. I wish there was something that could be done but it is what it is and I will adjust.

From: Aces11
21-Jan-19
To each their own. I would never have a crew helping me, but I also prefer to hunt alone. I do think it wrong when your crew of people start effecting someone else's hunt, like some of the examples that have been given so far.

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