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Mule Power's Link
Wolves... maybe not so cute and cuddly!
What a tragedy. No doubt an extremely rare occurrence, but I’m certain the uniqueness of the attack is irrelevant to that girls family....
I know this may be "old news" to some but I'm glad you brought it back up, Mule.
The 42 pages incident report was an interesting -though occasionally tough- read.
Sad stuff and, will happen more often in the future. As I’m certain it’s happened more then we know in the past.
Very sad indeed! I pray her family is doing well!
Sad. The family pets are not so cuddly either:
36 U.S. dog bite-related fatalities occurred in 2018. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 900 U.S. cities, pit bulls contributed to 72% (26) of these deaths. Pit bulls make up about 7% of the total U.S. dog population.
During the 14-year period of 2005 to 2018, canines killed 471 Americans. Two dog breeds, pit bulls (311) and rottweilers (47), contributed to 76% (358) of these deaths. 33 different dog breeds contributed to the remaining fatal dog maulings.
The embedded article copied & pasted below:
At least two wolves chased down and killed a teacher who was jogging on a road last year outside a rural Alaska village, according to a report released Tuesday by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.
The body of Candice Berner, 32, a special education teacher originally from Slippery Rock, Pa., was found March 8, 2010, two miles outside Chignik Lake. The village is 474 miles southwest of Anchorage, on the Alaska Peninsula.
Biologists ruled out reasons for the attack other than aggression. Investigators found no evidence that the wolves had acted defensively or that Berner was carrying food. They found no kill site that wolves may have been defending, no indication that the wolves had become habituated to people and no evidence of rabies.
"This appears to have been an aggressive, predatory attack that was relatively short in duration," the report concluded.
Berner's death by wolves was unprecedented in Alaska but the animals were immediately suspected. The state medical examiner concluded that Berner died from animal mauling. Alaska State Trooper investigators found drag marks and wolf tracks around the body.
Eight wolves were culled in the aftermath. DNA from two wolves was confirmed on Berner's body and clothing, including from one wolf not killed.
Chignik Lake, a village with just 73 residents, including 17 students, is off the road system; primary access is by airplane. Berner, a former gymnast, was hired by the Lake and Peninsula Borough School District to teach in multiple communities. She flew to Chignik Lake on the day of her death and spent time with students.
At 4 foot 10 inches and 115 pounds, Berner was fit and active. After school, she faxed her time sheet to the district, apparently changed into running clothes and jogged down the only road out of the community.
The road runs west along the side of a hill. A witness said her tracks made an abrupt reversal as the road curved, according to the state report.
Those tracks had been wiped out by the time investigators reached the village but they said she may have started running back when she noticed the wolves traveling in the opposite direction or became alarmed at their behavior. The wind was blowing from the west and the wolves may have detected her scent.
One or two wolves gave chase along the edge of the road, while another ran above the road and intercepted her. A depression in the snow with traces of blood on the road showed where Berner was first knocked down or fell. Investigators found a second depression 10 feet away, indicating she was knocked down or fell a second time.
Tracks suggested Berner struggled and crawled away, then was pulled downhill. The amount of blood suggested that by then, she was severely wounded. Investigators concluded she died in a clearing 30 feet from the road at a spot where snow melted in a 3-foot circle and a large bloodstain was found.
"Tracks and markings in the snow indicated that the struggle with the wolves was brief and death occurred quickly," the report said.
Her body was subsequently dragged out of the clearing 83 feet downhill into brush.
Four Chignik Lake residents returning home on snowmobiles saw blood on the road and a man who walked off the road spotted Berner's body. Later that night, a man who went to guard the body spotted a wolf nearby and saw that the body had been dragged 70 more feet downhill and that more of it had been eaten.
Alaska State Troopers told villagers to move the body to the village for safekeeping.
A Fish and Game Department biologist found nine sets of wolf tracks within a 30-foot radius of the body but the department concluded that four or fewer wolves were directly associated with the attack.
After the tragedy, when residents were unable to kill wolves, the Fish and Game Department decided to cull wolves within 30 miles of the village and killed eight. One adult female was killed March 26 within a mile of the village and DNA from that animal, as well as from at least one other wolf, was found on Berner's body and clothing.
"The other wolf is unknown, as it was not one of the wolves culled near Chignik Lake," the report said.
As many as three or four wolves may have left DNA evidence but that could not be confirmed by biologists.
Berner likely was listening to a portable music player as she ran but that was not considered a factor contributing to her death because wolves travel almost silently and wind would have masked sounds.
If she suddenly reversed course after spotting wolves, the report said, a flight response or the appearance of one "could have elicited a predatory response by the wolves."
PDF: Fish and Game report on wolf attack fatality
While researching this topic a while back I found a bunch of reports that suggested that years ago, in Europe and parts of Asia wolves killing humans was not an uncommon occurrence.
It seems as if lots of people want to believe that large predators see humans as somehow less desirable as prey than all the other things they eat. Common sense tells me that a caribou calf is harder to catch than a 5-year-old child. Barring some learned experience that the child is a riskier meal, why the hell wouldn't wolves, or bears, or lions eat people?
Very sad! I see she was from Slippery Rock, Pa. Did you know her or the family Joe?
Thanks for the stats, Bou. This is one reason I carry my pistol in a belly band while jogging and mtn biking.(even in the "neighborhood") I don't trust canines...................................of ANY breed! ;-)
Don't forget the young man killed in Canada. Not too long ago.
Like the mankillers in Africa and India.....once these animals figure out how defenseless, easy prey humans are it can become a problem.
It`s a sad, tragic story but could possibly become the catalyst for more wolf control. Imagine wolves taking down a child in Montana....what do you think the response would be.
No Rut Nut I didn’t know the family but it definitely caught my eye that she was from right up the road from me.
I realize at 8 years old this article isn’t recent. But I posted it in light of all the recent wolf talk because I’ve heard people say there has never been a documented case of a wolf killing a human. Yes there was also the guy in BC.
Coming soon to a neighborhood near you?
What a tragic and unnecessary outcome. Wish I could have given this woman a glock 19. I wonder how long we have till this takes place in Colorado or another state in the intermountian west? Sadly I think society has crossed the threshold where there won't be much public outcry. Conversely, the first person to draw a concealed pistol and drop one of these predators (justifiably so in a defense scenario like this) will likely face a good deal of condemnation in the court of public opinion.
This is where I differ from some here. What is happening concerning society’s love affair with “the natural order of things ” mentality is not a new phenomenon with people. It’s just the latest and greatest fad. Unfortunately, many a livelihood has suffered due to it. That’s not new either. It’s what bored spoiled people do.
You never hear of African tribes or, people in India worship lions and tigers like they are sacred. Just the opposite. They kill everyone they can because they have to live with them. Same will apply here.
Why it has been so accepted and let go to this point in America is beyond me. What I do know is sooner or later, the people that live among these brain fart ideas, will deal with them in a manner that stops the potential problems.
Damn that's a brutal way to die. Says she was only 4'10. Bummer. But they want to reintroduce them and even grizzlies everywhere now.
A woman was killed (slowly) by two coyotes in Cape Breton in 2009 while in a semi remote park. Literally kept chewing at her until she bleed out.
When wolves were common, the people that had to deal with them (ranchers, trappers, explorers and wilderness wanderers) were equipped to deal with them and did so with no fanfare or reporting to newspapers. So few accounts of attacks would have been recorded.
It will have to be city people or their kids getting attacked before any remedial action will be considered. It's amazing how the Vancouver'ites freak out when coyotes are eating THEIR pets and bears are patrolling THEIR alleys. Especially when they have a cougar sitting by THEIR school yard fence watching the kids run around.
Of course so far their response is to have them immediately and gently live trapped and shipped to MY backyard where they belong and I should learn how to live with them.
Thank you Disney..... fantasy indoctrination done so well the masses are brainwashed at a tender age into thinking it is reality......
Here's the thing about cities though. Their size insulates much of the population from wildlife. Have any of you ever been to Los Angeles? The urban basin stretches 60 miles west to east from the coast to where there starts to be some truly wild areas. There's little pockets here and there, but for the most part, large cities have nothing to fear when it comes to wild predators. Some of the hills have a few mountain lions, but you can drive for miles and miles miles and see nothing but houses, commercial centers, and industry.
"Why it has been so accepted and let go to this point in America is beyond me. What I do know is sooner or later, the people that live among these brain fart ideas, will deal with them in a manner that stops the potential problems."
WVM, I link it to comfort. That level of depravity correlates to either tremendous ease or exceptional distress. Given Americans have no common claim to the latter, it must be comfort.
I also find it maddening so many of the 'natural order' folks seem to conclude humankind, the apex predator, can be effectively debarred participation in the natural life cycle(s) without substantive depreciation thereof. Wholly illogical.
Out dated link to support a wolf haters agenda. Would hope you could do better.
Maybe there was a reason the settlers killed the wolves off to start with?
And the Indians, and the bison, and the whitetails. What a ridiculous argument.
Suspect Pig Doc is trolling but I think he brings up an excellent point...even in light of such a terrible event as a death at the hand of wolves, fast forward a few years and these people have advocated for sound wildlife management policies to be set aside (i.e. they keep moving the field goal posts so as to avoid de-listing/proper management, the grizzly being a good example) to appease public outcry. In doing so, this ensures further imbalance in the eco-system despite sound scientific findings. I don't want to eradicate wolves, I want sound wildlife management, which your side clearly does not.
Thanks for sharing, your comment proved our point even further.
Trolling? Please. Just a guy that lives in wolf country and understands they are a part of the ecosystem and a part of what makes the wilderness wild. I want sound wolf management as well. I hope MN opens up wolf hunting again. Posting anti-wolf crap that is 8 years old is trolling IMO.
Ecosystem suggests a balance. Wolf huggers don’t want a balance. Their goal is to push their agenda at the expense of everything else profiting along the way. It doesn’t matter when that incident took place. It’s new news to some people. I never knew about it until a friend from the Yukon posted it on Facebook today. The fact is it happened. If facts bother you you’ve been drinking the Kool Aid. You “hope” MN opens up wolf hunting? A little too late don’t you think. Talk to anyone from there or Wisconsin and they’ll tell you their ecosystem is down the crapper too.
Do you know the best thing you can do for cancer? Catch it early and cut it out!
Not a wolf hugger and not a wolf hater and certainly not drinking any Kool Aid. Just a guy from MN that enjoys hunting and a wilderness experience. I will never forget being on a deer stand 40+ years ago in northern MN and watching a wolf come through, hunting the same deer I was hunting. Made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. We are both apex predators and I'm not afraid to compete.
Minnesota has over 3,000 wolves. Why would I "talk to someone in Wisconsin" when they have less than 900 wolves? We had wolf hunting in MN 2012-2104. I applied every year but was not drawn. As I posted previously, I'm hoping we get more chances to hunt wolves in MN. I will apply and I will hunt if drawn. I live and hike in wolf country every day, as do my kids. I'm not afraid of them, nor do I hate them.
If you want to be a wolf hater posting 8 year old bull crap threads, knock yourself out. doesn't mean I have to agree.
BTW, dogs kill over 35,000 people per year. Wolves kill roughly 10 people per year. Maybe the OP should lighten up on wolves and crusade against dogs. Oh, that would not fit his narrative. Carry on...
Pig. Is that 35k killed by dogs Worldwide?
I've been reading Bowsite for almost 10 years, without ever registering, until now. I've kept up with the wolf issue all this time, and this is the first I've ever heard about this woman being killed by wolves. Just because this didn't happen yesterday doesn't change anything. You still have a bunch of East and West coast Wackjobs trying to force large predators down the throat of other American citizens. Don't those citizens have rights? This kind of crap really hacks me off. Just because they find some liberal judge somewhere to say "Oh, don't hurt the poor wolves!" the folks out west have to live with it. Lets start turning grizzlies loose in their hometown!
Who cares how old that article is Pig Doc?! Point is, it happened. The only one “trolling” here is you. If you don’t agree that’s fine. Your opinion. But calling it “CRAP” just because you don’t agree with it speaks volumes! ;-)
Who cares? I do. Just another wolf hater spouting off.
Most of the wolves in the lower 48 live in MN I don't need any dopes from PA that has no wolves telling us in MN how to manage wolves.
I'll have to echo Pig Doc. I grew up in MN wolf country, moved to Idaho in 1978, and have hunted next to wolves my whole life, including Alaska and Canada.
I won't kill a wolf unless it comes to the point where I will have eat it to survive.
You so called "trophy hunters", take note of where your priorities are.
Pig Doc, don't confuse Wisconsin's "wolf count" with our population estimate. DNR actually counted 900 or so. We probably have several thousand also. I agree with you though that they're a natural part of the landscape and should certainly be managed. We had the same 3 years as Minnesota had and quickly met our quotas each year. I personally had and filled a tag the second year in one day! That is one cool hide to me.
A lot of Wisconsin people believe our northern deer troubles are due to over harvest and not completely a wolf issue.
I also hunt in Michigan's UP and our best years we see a lot of wolf sign, always have and probably always will.
There are some dumb people in this world. And, evidently some ignorant ones among Bowsite. People need to learn to read, listen, absorb, and draw a sound conclusion versus jumping to a conclusion.
First, no one here said they were wolf haters. That only became an issue because it fit YOUR narrative. You claimed that inappropriately and, have latched on to it to make a point. No one but a few of you have suggested anything of the sort. All the while claiming for "sound" wildlife management. I have some news for you arm chair ecologists, sound wildlife management includes appropriate predator control. And harvesting is what all consumers do. Including wolves. So, it is apparent that over harvest is the problem. The only question is how to fix it? Since wolves don't read game laws, it is really pretty simple where the next focus needs to be placed.
Defend it with jabs of how you aren't afraid to compete. With accusations that modern hunting is immoral. Heck, say whatever you want. But, it is apparent who here has a narrative they are hiding. And, it wasn't Joe.
LOL Pig Doc! Keep spouting off........................you’re showing your true colors! I’m not trying to tell you how to do anything.
Uh, Pig Doc, on another thread you said you live in SW Minnesota. No wolves there, just corn fields and very few pheasants left. You just have a cabin in northern Minn. There are wolves there. Some of us live in wolf country up north and worked in the woods through our careers. Your opinions are fine.
Pretty cute and cuddly...
Pretty cute and cuddly...
Watched a huge decline of deer population in a Refuge I hunted when multiple wolf packs moved in 5-6 years ago. What was once a destination for my circle of bowhunting friends in NW part of MN is now a virtual deer wasteland. LAst time I was there only place you saw deer was near the Dept of Wildlife buildings. Wolf scat everywhere. Heard several packs call after dark on night.
Saw plenty on Camp Ripley over the years, including the group that surrounded me and my brother almost 40 years ago. If you don't fear them, you really don't know them.
Pig Doc I’m not a hater of many things. I’ve lived and worked near more wolves than you or anybody who promotes wolf introduction will ever see or hear. You have made an ass-umption that I promote eradicating all of them. Not true at all. When we lost our deer tags, then our elk tags in the 250 unit of western Montana it was a real eye opener. The reality of what was going on became real clear real fast. I was outfitting in the back country when that all happened. People would say to me all the time “Man I bet you hate those bastards!” My answer would be no not at all. To hate would make it personal. I’m smart enough to know that the wolves don’t make it personal. They are just being wolves killing to eat and teach their pups. They didn’t head out every day saying let’s go murder all of Joe’s elk and deer hehehe.
The bastards I hate are the humans who do make it personal. The ones who say to themselves screw those hunters we don’t care if every elk deer and moose in the Rockies gets slaughtered we just hate humans hunting. Yep I hate Fn anti hunters and the judges who grant them their wishes!
I don’t mind competing with wolves when I’m out hunting. But I can’t compete if they’ve wiped out most of what we hunt and so I can’t even buy a license to hunt anymore. If we are all playing fair I wouldn’t have an opinion about wolf introduction in other states. But the track record will show you that it’s anything but fair or logical and the people that push it don’t care about ecosystems. So as the saying goes..... screw me once shame on you. But screw us twice and shame on us. We cannot give an inch to people who we already know want thousands of square miles!
It never ceases to surprise me just how polarizing wolves are to humans. Its not that wolves are trying to polarize us. Its just that humans (usually) choose to polarize ourselves. Most humans seem to either love or hate wolves.
There is plenty of room in the middle (Mule Power said it well). Wolf populations should be managed. I particularly fear for Colorado's because I doubt that they will ever managed due to their political climate, so it makes more sense just to keep them out.
I'm where Mule and Stabber are. Wolves in and of themselves are ok on our Minnesota landscape, but they need to be managed, as in hunting, We've had them here forever, but are now getting to the nuisance level. Definitely have impacted our deer and moose populations here. As others have stated, the political climate is the real problem, not only in wildlife management, but other issues as well. That is why it is worth fighting to prevent further or forced wolf increases in Colorado. There is little chance that wolves would be allowed to be managed there with the political climate.
I try to stay out of the wolf debates but I just have to ask this: How many here are truly concerned about the dangers wolves pose? Really truly concerned about how dangerous wolves are with respect to other dangers? I'd bet rutting buck deer have killed more people than wolves in the last century. I'd wager that bears, moose, and falls from tree stands while hunting have killed far more people. We all take risks when hunting - from falls to facing off large predators with mere sticks and stones in our mitts, to 'get the rush' of the danger. We take the ultimate chances in driving to our hunts - whizzing by two-tons of hurtling iron and steel within three feet at a combined velocity of 120 mph while peering into the darkly lit path in front of us at o-dark thirty with a few hours sleep and a drug induced state of semi consciousness just to go get the 'thrill' of the hunt. No one here is logically concerned about the danger a wolf poses to society, trust me. It is relatively miniscule. What we all wish for is to be left alone in our thinking. We all want this....or that. We want to compete with the other predators for our quarry, or we want to hunt in the absence of them, or we want to be left alone by the ones who want to protect them. Or we (mostly 'they') want to be the ones protecting them. There are many agendas out there, but I for one do not think basing any protection for a predator or lack thereof has any need to be justified by the 'danger' it poses, when almost all of humankind risks life daily just hopping in a car and driving on a busy highway. Hell, look at all the millennial wolf huggers that risked their city little wolf-loving PETA supporting butts to go see the 'Twilight' series featuring the werewolves and otherworldly dangerous creatures of their fantasies - all bloodthirsty killers on the loose (in their minds - not worrying about the dangerous REAL big bad wolf). This wolf debate BS is getting real old. The fact is they exist in nature, and should be dealt with like every other natural critter - manage and hunted, but managed soundly so they remain a viable part of nature, not a cancerous growth that out performs the rest of its competition and surroundings. Wolves have their part, but they need to be hunted, and not given a pass by nature-lover wannabees from the farthest from nature reaches of the cities who have zero concept of reality when it comes to sound wildlife management. These debates bring out the true colors of those debating that's for sure. So far, I've seen only a handful of posts from those who have a handle on what wildlife management really means.
As big a problem as "reintroduction" itself, is the concept of "state management" of wolves.
When the feds grant management authority to states, it is not state management at all. It is allowing the state to PAY FOR management that is dictated by the FWS. The state "management" must be according to federal rules.
That is not state management....
The management plan should be fully developed BEFORE the introduction. Ironclad triggers and counts done by state biologists with no "citizen" input. Take lessons from the other states.
Seriously, who would bring home a bunch of Burmese pythons, set the cardboard box in the driveway, then go to bed thinking, "tomorrow morning I'll go get some stuff to build pens for those cute little buggers" ?
And why is it so many rabid anti-hunters have a hunter (the wolf) that kills savagely, as their Spirit Animal? Hmmm??
There are no wolf haters. No wolf lovers. There are people that want to use them to eliminate hunting, people who want them for the romance, people who don't want them at all, and people who aren't against them as long as the wolves interests aren't put top shelf at the cost of everything else.
With the history of reintroduction, there is little reason why anyone wouldn't be cautious of the wolf getting priority over all other human interests. And, with the money they pro-wolfers have, there is little reason to believe they will not dictate management through legal bribery. No matter who, what or how many things they kill.
Ambush, hard and fast triggers are only as good as the ability to enforce them. There were hard and fast triggers in place across much of the west. The goal posts keep getting moved further and further away by leftist judges. The triggers don't mean crap when you can't ever get them pulled.
Very true Brotsky. And why many on the ground will decide when to pull the trigger handiest to them at the time.
I’ve watched first hand here in BC game populations become decimated by out of control wolves while politicians stand by, frozen by fear of not being (re)elected. They are afraid of the 2/3’s of the voters that occupy only 1/8th of the land mass. And those voters are completely unaffected by the wolf explosion.
The only wolf cull going on right now (and it’s very effective) is because two Indian bands have signed on as paid monitors. Caribou numbers are up.
The “plan” that’s been in place for years is to kill off moose and elk to starve the wolves to death so they don’t kill caribou. The result? No moose, elk OR caribou!!
Do I want the BC wolves eradicated? No.
Do I want them controlled affectively and immediately when required? Absolutely!!
I have said it before on this forum and I 'll say it again. Too many people see wolves as a furry cuddly animal that ultimately represents wildness and should never be managed. The fact they kill by ripping, shredding their prey while they are still alive is passed off as nonsense or just a consequence of keeping wildlife pure. I encourage all to read the book the Hunting Apes. You will see our closest relative Chimpanzees hunt, kill game (generally their fellow primates) by cornering them in the tree canopy or knock them to the ground to be torn to pieces while still very much alive. But if a hunter is ever found to kill a chimpanzee Oh boy here come the Jane Goodall fans!!!
"Sad. The family pets are not so cuddly either: 36 U.S. dog bite-related fatalities occurred in 2018. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 900 U.S. cities, pit bulls contributed to 72% (26) of these deaths. Pit bulls make up about 7% of the total U.S. dog population."
"During the 14-year period of 2005 to 2018, canines killed 471 Americans. Two dog breeds, pit bulls (311) and rottweilers (47), contributed to 76% (358) of these deaths. 33 different dog breeds contributed to the remaining fatal dog maulings."
What a crock of shit.... LOL Pitbull's contributed to 389 killings from 1982 to 2017. Leave that shit to your facebook groups and your bar room buddies, no room for false statistics here Bound.
The biggest danger is certainly not the physical harm to humans that directly comes from a wolf or wolves. But, rest assured there are dangers attached, and if you don't see that then I would at least question some motives.
Who wants to bet that more people will be killed in car wrecks while trying to avoid hitting wolves than will be killed in wolf attacks?
But the statistic about no human fatalities is a joke. When wolves were all but eradicated before anyone started keeping records, what would any thinking person expect???
But Val Geist had a good point in his article about human habituation. If we stop acting like predators, it’s only a matter of time til they start evaluating us as prey.
Slow, weak, inattentive prey!!
I just hope the liberals and leftist judges can can sleep good at night knowing it easier to remove a human from the womb than manage wolves and ill throw in grizzlies. They don't want to be told how to run their life but they don't mind trying to ram there agenda down your throat. Hippocrates!
Was solo elk bowhunt backpacking a few years ago in MT and had a CLOSE wolf pack wake me from a sound sleep at about 2 am. Not ashamed to say my first move was up a tree, and my second was to build a hefty fire. It's all well and good to go anecdotal or philosophical when it's an armchair exercise, but when they are right in your lap it brings up something very primal. Dr. Valerius Geist has documented wolf attacks (including fatal) on humans are far from being as rare as widely reported (see link http://www.vargfakta.se/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Geist-when-do-wolves-become-dangerous-to-humans-pt-1.pdf). Put wolves into a multi-use landscape, and you have a recipe for serous trouble. With efforts to allow wolves to expand their range (which they are doing), it is only a matter of time before there are more problems.
And what's that line they always use when trying to curtail YOUR freedom or ram something unnecessary down YOUR throat? Oh yeah............
"If it can save only ONE life, then it's worth it."
That or along the lines of "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor....."
The ideology doing the ramming are liars of the highest order. They are the ones who justify the knowing lies in their twisted minds.... " it's for your own good...."
I know very few "wolf lovers" that actually have to live, work and make a living around them. (As opposed to making a living OFF them...) The vast majority will never in their lives be within a hundred miles of one much less have to deal with the loss of hounds, calves, horses, livestock.....
Expanding to Florida possibly???
— A pack of dogs mauled a man to death as he walked through a wooded area in Florida, police said. Melvin Olds Jr., 45, was attacked Thursday after he took a shortcut to get home near Lake Placid. His body was found the same day with more than 100 dog bites, according to the Highlands County Sheriff's Office. The county's animal services have set up traps in the area for dogs that may have been involved in the attack. Six dogs have been captured so far and their bite size matches with the wounds on Olds' body, the sheriff's office said.
I respect your opinions,,, however if you do not deal with them on a weekly basis, you have no idea of what you are talking about.... I have no problems with wolves I like wild things in wild country, but there needs to be controls......
Here it is in a nutshell,,,,, These days we deal with those, who make decisions on this issue and others, in the outdoor world, who have the authority, but in no way are even active in the pursuits that we enjoy.....
They work for the state legislature the local dept of natural resources the us fish and game, and the bottom line, is in todays world the old school is gone, most of these experts, spend little time, in the field, enjoying, what they are making decisions on, for us,,,,