New eBike regulations for hunters
General Topic
Some good news on the use of ebikes on certain land.
August 29th , the Department of Interior released a Secretarial Order relating to the use of electric bicycles, or e-bikes, on all Department lands, including lands under the management of the National Park Service, the Bureau of Land Management, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Reclamation. Effective Immediately.
The Secretarial Order directs those agencies to conform to the policy that e-bikes shall be allowed where other types of bicycles are allowed, to the extent existing regulations allow. This is a positive development for the use of electric bicycles, and will ultimately enable the Department to provide better bicycling experiences for more Americans.
Here's the link to the order..
I suspect the forest service, which is under the department of agriculture, will follow suit.
Great until ebikes become more efficient and powerful. They will be as good as a motorized vehicle in our lifetime so.......
This is a mistake. E bikes are not bicycles and access should be limited to human powered bikes. Why does everyone think easier is better and won't be a negative impact?
Hi Skkoumjt, ebikes have the same footprint on the environment as human powered bikes. Plus some guys just need a little assistance to reach far spots that once was reachable unassisted. Hunters on ebikes are not going around tearing up the ground skidding down hills like the adrenaline junkie downhill bikers do. I don't see any issue
There was a demonstration here recently saying that a more powerful E-bike was in the works that would need almost no pedaling and runs 30 mph, that's a motorcycle.
Keepemsharp, They already exist. ebikes generally come in 750 or 1000 watt motors. the 1000 watt motor runs 28mph. since 2016 Conservation Officers from the Michigan dept. of Natural Resources (and now not only those guys) have been using 1000 watt ebikes for patrolling and citing wildlife violations. If it was negative for the environment and land itself they would be against it.
If the unfair advantage is the reason for not allowing ebikes on biked roads, then that's personal opinion.
I need a little assistance too, maybe they should blacktop every road and trail in the national forests and every national park across the country.
At some point you just have to say I’m sorry for your bad luck you’re gonna have to find someplace else to go.
right on wapatibob. I just drove down the hill from Cloudcroft more trucks pulling up 4 wheelers and dirt bikes than you can imagine. keep'im out of the forest no motorized anything
I am on the fence on this issue. Not a fan of bikes motorized or not in the back country. I had a couple of issue were guys on bikes were riding the trails and ridges in the country I was sheep hunt. One guy really screwed up one hunt. I could see how they could help a guy really get a ways back.
The reason people want to "get farther" is because people can't/won't work hard enough so it's generally a better experience with better opportunities.
I have spent my life going to the places others didn't. I'm 50 now and am not able to go all the places I used to and that's fine. Someone younger and stronger can go have the chance to go experience what I have.
Making it easier isn't the answer. That's a slippery slope that we can't go down. The wild country should stay that way.
How far can an ebike go on a charge? Sure you can get out there, but can you get back? Can you get back enough times to get your elk out? How long does it take to charge the thing on your generator back at the truck? I love bicycles, pedal bicycles. I'm not excited about e-bikes, or those e-scooters in the city. And what if, e-bikes are just another way to revive the biking industry and it's really all about $$$$$? E-bikes are not a fad, they are here for good, and they will become a problem in the back country.
I'm 54 and choose not to access areas as often as I did when I was 30 something. I acknowledge there is a time to "get off the stage" and that time is partially here for me. Allow those willing to put forth the effort to access the spots I enjoyed .
ebikeJohn, you don't see an issue because you don't want to. The point you make regarding damage to the environment is a red herring.
PECO, the range on a battery can be anything from 20 miles to 60 miles and it can fully charge on a generator in about 6 hrs.
elkster, it really depends on the issue. ebikes were not allowed go anywhere except motorized trails because the laws surrounding them where before ebikes were a thing, and vehicles in general would have a negative physical impact on the land. An ebike has the same physical impact a a push bike so I don't see why the they should be treated differently (if the argument is impact on the environment). Then there is a separate discussion about whether or not someone has an unfair advantage because up until now if you were unable to reach a spot you didn't go, then that's a whole different debate that the Department of Interior get to choose.
Some guys are physically forced to retire early due to injury or other and an ebike can help them to keep hunting when otherwise they might have to give it up.
Definitely an advantage to aid in the harvest.
They will have an environmental greater than a push bike. Because they will be in addition to push bikes and they will allow people to go further than they could go on a push bike. If you spend any time on trails that push bikes are used you can see they are harder on trails that foot traffic. As ebikes popularity increases there is no way you can argue they do not have an environmental impact on trails or anywhere they are driven. Most people find what they are looking for in the back country because it is hard to access and allows for some level of solitude. Hard to argue for them to deal with ebikes because it easier for others.
If you're concerned that ebikes might led to problems now, just wait until they really start perfecting them. Ebikes today are relatively heavy and with limited range. As more and more money goes into that market they will no doubt evolve into far more efficient machines. I can only imagine what they will look like 10 years from now.
There is really no practical way to regulate the power on them. Enforcement officers aren't going to have any way to test them in the field.
And remember, it's not only hunters that will be using them either. As they evolve to become electric motorcycles there will be scads of hot shots bombing around the back country. ATVs were not really a problem until everybody had one. Now tons of formerly open roads have had to be closed because they were being abused. Ebikes will certainly evolve to become very efficient 2 wheel ATVs.
I'm with those that realize my time in the back country is limited, and when it is over I wish I could leave it to be enjoyed by those that still can.
This is a huge mistake for our public lands.
I’ll leave the debate over whether it’s going to ruin public ground hunting to you guys. It sure is fantastic on my private ground. Not because of laziness, I can walk it just fine. It’s just fast, scent free, and I no longer get all sweated up getting to my far stands. I imagine the hills out in elk country would burn that battery up pretty fast so I can’t imagine you guys in the mountains will see many e-bikes at all.
How is this good news? It’s a bunch of BS. Past generations all took their turns being able to work hard to access remote areas and the solitude they provide. Now, as it’s getting tougher for the current generation, they decide to change the rules and treat a motorized bike as an unmotorized vehicle even though the only read they’re buying them is because they have a motor. Blatantly selfish.
I have been under the impression that we are just talking about bikes that are 750 watts or less. Because they are officially classified as “non motorized”. 1000 watts bikes are officially designated as motorized. So if they stick to that limit, I don’t see “bigger and faster”. Just easier access to some areas by some. Never going to have a consensus on this. I am still on the fence but lean toward allowing them up to 750 watt. JMO
And remember guys. They will NEVER be allowed in wilderness areas.
battery charging isn't a problem. Just take in a spare battery. Or with todays solar chargers, can they charge a bike battery??
In my opinion this is great news. Up until this point a lot of harder to access areas were only accessible to those who could afford to own horses or those who could afford to hire outfitters with horses. Of course there are still going to be lots of areas off limits to any kind of bike, and where horses are still allowed. At least the e.bikes won't be leaving huge piles of horse crap all over the road.
Also, I see people talking about how in the past no one used bikes to access a lot of these areas. A lot of areas that I plan on taking a bike, are roads that in the past people took their trucks, because the roads were not gated.
"Or with todays solar chargers, can they charge a bike battery??"
He said it takes 6 hours to charge with a generator. I don't know what kind of solar charger can equal or better that.
This 200 watt solar panel charges as fast as a household outlet.
I think they’re great for anywhere that gas-powered vehicles regularly go.
But anyone who thinks this is good news should go read that post about the Elk herd near Vail. Twice if necessary to see why this ruling truly SUCKS for backcountry enthusiasts who enjoy some solitude.
If they are so destructive and bad for hunting then so are horses, pack animals and al the outfitter camps in the back country. A limited wattage ebike would be helpful. I see no issue. The REAL issue is shrinking opportunities to hunt and access to public lands.
Why not just build roads through all of the USFS forest then people can drive their Prius to a wallow , with little side roads to any meadows in the forest and pull off’s for e-vaping ?
Just remember, fellas - Ethical means doing the right thing even when it doesn’t favor your own interests.
Just sayin’.
Where I hunt gives me a different perspective. It has logging roads all over that were open to ATV travel for as long as I can remember until a couple of years ago. For the most part closing them has been a good thing because there’s nothing more frustrating than being in a good place and finding some animals and hearing a ATV coming down the trail. Even so many people want them opened back up. However silent low power eBikes seem to me to be a good compromise between keeping the roads closed an opening them back up. Someone silently slipping up the trail on an ebike won’t bother me near as much. So I would definitely prefer it to opening it back up to ATVs
My thoughts on legality on public, NO.
My main reason is keeping things simple. We already have way too many rules making hunting (and other outdoor activities) complicated. Why don't we take the opportunity to nip a new technology in the bud. If it isn't entirely human driven, it's not a bike. Why leave the door open to further complicated rules about wattage, pedal assist, speed limits, battery capacity, etc ...
Private land is not even in the discussion. Do whatever you want on land that you own. Ebikes would make a lot of sense there. The only one you affect is you. Knock yourself out, and I would probably do the same.
My favorite public land elk hunting spot is a lot of work to get into. I work my tail off when I hunt it and the reason I like it so much is I don't see many people when I get there. It's too far in for a day hunt and there just aren't many backpack hunters that are willing to put in the effort. The elk are always there and unpressured. Yet it would be a relatively easy four mile ride on an established trail with an ebike. I've ridden them, I know what they can do.
If people with an ebike discover "my spot", and I'm certain they will, my "honey hole" will never be the same. Yes, someone could ride a conventional bike in there now legally. But they don't, because it is simply too difficult for most to peddle uphill that far. The difficulty keeps them out. I do a lot of mountain biking, but don't attempt it in this spot. Put a battery on it though and anyone that can balance on two wheels could do it, run back to base camp to recharge overnight, and buzz back in the next morning. And again, what the bikes of today are capable of is just a fraction of what they will be able to do in the future as this industry explodes and manufacturers pour money into better, lighter and more efficient bikes.
I suppose some would say I should be happy because at my age it is getting tougher every year to make it into places like this. I guess I could just break down and buy an ebike myself and continue going to my spot on into my golden years. But if I can't enjoy the solitude that I've had in the past, what good is it? I'd rather pass the spot on to someone else that will have to work just as hard as I did and to find unpressured elk when they get there.
I don't see the big issue with this. The times someone has invaded my "solitude", their means of getting there was irrelevant. It was the fact I knowingly had a stand near a trail (or hiked in from a different direction). I've had snowmobilers, horse riders, bikers and loud-mouthed hikers come by. If I was concerned that much about it, I'd set up or go where there were no trails or roads. I can say it didn't affect the deer that were around there as they were use to it. I suppose hikers can still walk in on you if you're in the bush....but that's how it works on public land.
Same debate as a crossbow when you can't physically use a bow.
Yep, isn’t tech wonderful?!
I personally feel when the law says motorized traffic prohibited, then its real easy to say where they don’t belong. And any other justification is self serving. That’s ok too. But, there is no need hiding that rationalization behind hypothetical scenarios. It is what it is.
No one can do what they could in their 20’s and 30’s. It’s calked life. Adapt or, push movements to change a law best suited for all generations. That’s the issue here. And, to me the answer is very clear.
Skooumjt , well said... "The reason people want to "get farther" is because people can't/won't work hard enough so it's generally a better experience with better opportunities." I think this is the valid point of the debate. The hunters that dedicate the effort and press on far from the trail head deserve the better opportunities because they trained, prepared and worked hard for it..
" Deserved has nothing to do with it " lol
“I don't see the big issue with this. The times someone has invaded my ‘solitude’, their means of getting there was irrelevant. It was the fact I knowingly had a stand near a trail (or hiked in from a different direction)...... If I was concerned that much about it, I'd set up or go where there were no trails or roads.”
And what will you do when e-bikers have created a trails network through areas where none had been created before because motors were not permitted and bikers chose not to go because it was too demanding to be enjoyable?
What will you do when there are no quiet places left?
JMO, if you grew up out west where there has always been plenty of access to solitude for those willing to work for it, you’d see this differently.
20-some years ago, I was splitting my time between Denver and Dillon; I was biking a couple hundred miles a week. Resting heart rate in Denver was a hair under 40, and out on the trail I was a freakin’ HAMMER. I rode all the summit county routes the Hard Way; climbing the descents and bombing down the climbs. Local bike shop folks knew me on sight (out on the trail) and thought I was nuts.
And once I hit 11,000 feet, I could pedal about 100 yards up a moderate grade before I’d need to get off and push or just sit down and get some water.
Now they’re talking about technology that would allow a hunter to haul a camp’s worth of gear faster, farther and higher than I could have gone on my best day, carrying nothing more than a camelback and a tool kit... and the hunter need hardly break a sweat.
I now live at sea-level and I can’t hammer the hills like I used to. Choices. Life gets in the way. But I had my shot. Someone else’s turn. Thanks for the memories.
“If they are so destructive and bad for hunting then so are horses, pack animals and all the outfitter camps in the back country.”
Wrong.
A horse passing through does no more (or different) damage to a trail than a couple of Elk. A llama probably does less.
A bike passing through creates a continuous depression that concentrates runoff and with repeated use can become a trench that will cut through a hillside.
And if your position is that outfitter camps are destructive, then consider what happens when you multiply the numbers and the participants know less and care less about keeping their impacts to a minimum. A non-res hunter can show up for a week and pressure the hell out of animals he won’t have another shot at for a year, but an outfitter who has booked clients from now through Thanksgiving is going to have to be a lot more careful if he’s going to have any happy clients after archery ends.
Totally different scenarios, and if you can’t see it, it’s because you don’t give a rip about anyone but yourself... You think Bowhunting is getting a raw deal now in places like CO... just wait until there are no seasonal refuge areas left and the herds face 100-yards-from-the-road pressure even well back into the Wilderness areas.... because you know there will be plenty of those Silent, Stealthy e-bikes “accidentally” straying over those boundary lines....
The technology is ALREADY here folks! If you have enough $$.................,,.
Top speed of 60 mph AND a range of 100 miles.................doesn’t sound like a BICYCLE to me! ;-)
Well, technically speaking, those are too powerful to slip in through the 750 or 1000-watt loophole....
I will say though, that I’ve never seen a horse or a llama peel out and leave trench like that. Although a pedal-powered mountain bike will do it EVERY TIME if you lock up your brakes on a descent.
If 1000 watt is the threshold to be considered 'motorized' you can bet that there will soon be 990's.
Before I give my 2¢ I don't own an ebike. But I find it interesting how each new advancement in technology gets so blasted by us cause its new and "not the way I used to do it". You didn't shoot a 350 fps high tech carbon fiber bow with carbon arrows either. Your gps on your phone and your OnXmaps didn't exist either. All tools to help the hunter get further and kill better than your grandfather did. This is simply one more step in the evolution of hunting. We can all b*tch about it, but eventually it'll be something else and we'll remember the good old days you had to half pedal an ebike to our spots instead of the guys flying to them in human carrying Edrones. That's coming to, bet your hat on it.
bikes are not allowed in wilderness areas, Everytime I pack in with my horse and mule I see plenty of bikes in the wilderness and they mostly show no respect or thought that I am on a living 1,000 pound animal with a brain the size of a walnut. Just last month a good friend was thrown and dragged from her horse when bikes showed up and speeding past. 21 broken bones and one collapse lunge. Still recovering. they will be in the wilderness where a power saw is stricken and should be
GF, I lived out west for a while. I think you might be looking at it from a worst case scenario and adding in some maybe's and what if's. I can see them being more of a headache than an asset for the owner.
I would hate this if I was one of those guys who was in good enough shape to hunt way back in crap usually by myself but I would like it if I wasn’t in that good of shape and could now hunt way back there
I don't like it. Lots of them M on the streets and sidewalks where I live and I see near missed with cars, and people walking almost every day. And to me walk in areas that are non motorized NES to stay that way. There is a problem in the walk in/non motorized unit I hunt and people walking on the trails have been hit by people on e bikes. If it is a walk in/non motorized area it needs to stay that way.
if its the same argument as crossbows vs. bows. then if i cant pedal a bike i should be able to use my four wheel drive truck and a chainsaw to widen the road if necessary. maybe even take in a dozer since i cant run a chainsaw from carpal tunnel. Also, since i have a hard time staying awake sometimes i should be able to build a cabin back in there along my dozer trail to sleep in as i need rest because i cant pedal a bike and run a chainsaw. also, since it's inhumane for someone to starve, i should be able to use my dozer to clear some land and plant crops and put up a fence for some livestock so i can have meat. all because i cant pedal a bike.
I think it is good when game has some safer havens. Why do hunters feel the need to populate the wilderness for personal gain?
I don't think it really matters one way or another. As the original settlers in this country learned, you can't stop progress. In thirty years or less, hunting as you know it will be nothing more than a memory here in Colorado.
Not to change the subject, but 30 years? I give it half that at best.
I think some of you are getting carried away with how much of a difference an e.bike will make. I nearly always hunt on foot, but occasionally use a regular bike. The bike is pretty much only useful when hunting a long way up a gated road, it basically just allows me to get out of there quicker in the dark. For me, all an e.bike would do, would be make it a little easier to get up hill on the way in, and make it a little quicker to make the trips in and out with a dead elk. It wouldn't open up any new areas for me to hunt, as most places that are worth getting to don't have roads or trails through them. Also, bringing a bike in to hunt elk, isn't really that handy, as you never know where an elk is going to bugle and lead you to, and you always have to come back to where you left the bike. As far as e.bike owners being lazy - I personally would be fine with everyone having to use traditional archery equipment, and having to hike everywhere to hunt - no e.bikes, no regular bikes, no horses. Actually, I rarely ever see anyone bow-hunting with horses, they typically take their horses in to where they can rifle hunt during the rut in Montana.
Rut Nut
Those kind of bikes have nothing to do with this discussion. With a 750 watt limit those kind of bikes will never be allowed.
And they will never carry a full camp up a steep hill to remote locations. Not enough battery power.
That is assuming they do not progress, like compounds and scoped crossbows have.
Like anything else, responsible use isn't the issue as much as irresponsible use. I'm torn on access issues. Sometimes I'm on the side of more, sometimes on the side of less.
The real impact may be when technology/demand advances and although not much more capable, the price drops.
a) e-bikes are expensive b )somebody is making money c) somebody making money is donating to 'political victory funds' d) if you ain't spreading money you're spreading manure. Questions?
This is the same as the crossgun issue, if the people selling and making them spend enough money in the right places they are in.
Yup, same as when the compound came out. Lots of money to make and plenty of able bodied stick bow shooters to buy them.
Even with the 750-1000 watt limit these things are very capable. But how will that limit be enforced? LEOs will carry watt meters and stop every biker to test their machines? I don't think so. Of course nobody will ever think to slap a different sticker on top of their 1500 watt machine.
I don't know much about ebike motors and how wattage is measured. But a quick Google search took me to a site that talks about how manufacturers currently have purposely mislabeled bikes to get around European wattage restrictions. And it also mentioned a couple of aftermarket hacks that change a 1000 watt motor to 3000 watts.
The watt limit restriction is a farce. It will go out the window faster than this new rule got put into place. Ebikes are set to affect the Backcountry in ways ATV manufacturers have only dreamed of.
eBike John, Bad reference when you throw out The Michigan DNR! They can't manage a deer herd let alone telling the people what is good for the environment.
The issue around making it to easy has been stated for years. There is nothing difficult about sitting in a tree stand. Nothing difficult about sitting in a ground blind at water. Millions of hunters do it annually. Who are you to define the difficulty level for others. It is a free country.
Now, where trails should be is entirely a nother matter. They should not be in critical wildlife habitat, winter or calving.
“Who are you to define the difficulty level for others.”
A sure sign of someone who has never done it the hard way. The difficulty has always been there, limiting access to the self-selected few who had the gumption to get the hell out there even though it was Hard, because they believed it would be worth it.
There are only two ways to limit the pressure on a resource: make it difficult enough that while open to all, only a few will partake.... or limit the participation by reducing the tags to where a lottery is required.
Seems like everybody is OK with lowering the bar until it costs them a tag.
And FWIW, it wasn’t that long ago that tree stands were illegal in many states. Now THERE is a reg I wouldn’t mind seeing make a comeback....
You guys know that NONE of this matters, don't you?
The WOLVES are coming. It's over boys!!
Tell you what. Let’s ban both bikes and trail cameras.
One mans like is another mans dislike.
BTW, by all means limit them to established trails ONLY.
Let's ban the use of horses for hunting, they make it way to easy. We should all only be allowed walk in, pack it out on your back.
Also let's ban outfitters.
Ridiculous.
Very few things in real life ever reach the level of negativism that they achieve on internet forum speculation.
Seems a little silly to be complaining about technology ruining ones experience, while technology is oozing out of every pocket of our own hunting gear. For me and my 62 yr old butt, you'll see me pulling up to the public parking in my F250 Diesel, donning my Goretex gear, grabbing my Carbon element, loading my Summit Viper in my little tubular trailer, then head down the trail on my E-bike. I'll be mindful though that I can only go as deep as a half charge will allow. I just hope while hunting there, I don't run into guys with crossbows with scopes or 325 fps speed bows with GPS sights, camping in those little lightweight dome tents the city boys driving Subaru's like to sleep in. Sometimes you just have to draw a line. But then, who am I to say.
And this is WHY the wolves will be here. Because hunters fight each other and the antis unite over and over again. We’ll never understand that we are are own worst enemy. Technology be damned, we are the worst for hunting. Period. All the infighting is what will be the end of us.
Looked in the mirror lately Dave. Probably shouldn't.
If you have an opinion, give it, but name calling has no valid purpose in an adult conversation.
why not let people use high powered rifles during the whole season, you know technology does not hurt hunting. nice long range 300 ultra mag and an ebike from september 1 to Christmas.
All you Ebike haters act like these bikes are going to drive up the face of a cliff while you sit there eating a cheeseburger and a Coke. You all realize they are still a bike, the same guys that are in shape enough to hike into the back country will be the same guys using these ebikes. Fat Albert isn't going to get on an ebike and ride it up a horse trail into the back country. Those of you whining should go give one a test ride, they are far from a motor bike and these exaggerations are laughable.
Im gonna get me an ebike, use my compound, mechanical BHs, my range finder, my inreach, OnX, and go shoot me some elks and deers
To me you can talk about all different kinds of technology but making access to more remote country easier is THE worst thing for the resource and for user conflict. All of the new fangled crap on the market won’t affect other people’s experience if they can’t pack it into the areas where we bust our balls to have peace of mind.
Regardless of what it runs on, gas, electric, farts..... an e-bike has a motor. For that reason it should only be permitted where motorized travel is allowed. Period!!!
Footprint my a$$. It is unfair to people who wish to put forth some effort to leave motorized travelers behind.
I’m glad to know that if you attempted to use any wheeled device motorized or not where I hunt you would likely die.
Have a nice day.
From: txhunter58 01-Sep-19
Rut Nut Those kind of bikes have nothing to do with this discussion. With a 750 watt limit those kind of bikes will never be allowed.
And they will never carry a full camp up a steep hill to remote locations. Not enough battery power.
SOme of my ice-fishing buddies said the same thing when guys started using their cordless drills to power their ice-augers. Now I am using my Milwaukee cordless drill to turn my 8" Mora (used to be) hand auger, drilling almost 100 holes in 12" of ice(or 50 in 20"+) That's on a single 5.0 ah battery. Since then they have come out with 9.0 and 12.0 ah batteries. ;-)
ROFLMAO, MulePower!
Nice to know it AIN’T just me....
Tickler - you know better than that. We’re not talking about Fat Albert; we’re talking about guys who currently use Motorized vehicles (or would, if they could afford one) who will switch to an e-bike to expand their range into areas which are simply too much work right now. It won’t be all of them, but it’ll be plenty enough that the guys who already hunt those areas under human/llama/horse/mule power will notice an appreciable degradation of their hunting experience.
Those areas are ALREADY OPEN to anyone willing to do the work, and fortunately, not many are.
Laws making it less work to get back there WILL result in additional hunting pressure. Same as Compounds spurred growth in Bowhunter numbers and cow-only archery tags turned a lot of people into two-season Elk hunters.... not all of which are honest enough to pass up a big bull if they get a shot at one with only a cow tag in their pockets.
Ya I do know better than that, i own an ebike and yes they do assist, but it's still work. Much easier to sit on a horse and not have to do any work. A 750 watt ebike still requires a lot of man power to get up a trail with a decent grade. Someone that is lazy now will not effectively use an ebike to get back into the back country. They may try it once and realize it's still work and be done with it. They are fun and can be effective, but a horse or mule is what needs to be regulated if you are whining about more people in the back country. An ebike doesnt make it a cake walk by any means. A string of pack mules taking a shiz every quarter mile on a trail is much more annoying to me than somebody on a bike. To each their own, but until you have experience on one you wont understand. The arguement this will increase bowhunters in the woods is asinine, a guy isn't going to buy an ebike then a bow then end up in your honey hole. A guy will hire a guide, pay to ride his fat azz into your back country basin and blow your hunt up is much more likely than a guy on an ebike ruining your hunt. C'mon you all know better than that.....
Right on Twinetickler - there sure are some narrow minded, NIMBY people around.
An assisted bike is one step closer to assisted living.
Haha I'll give you that Mark I do have a sense of humor!
FrenchTickler have you ever gotten up at 3:30 am to catch/feed/water/saddle horses? And I’m here to tell you that if you are just sitting on one you don’t know how to ride and he won’t last very long. Riding is work before during AND after. You don’t just push a button to go and drop the kickstand when you are done. Furthermore livestock doesn’t make ruts which cause erosion. There are many reasons why the US Forest Service prefers hoofed travel over anything with wheels. Clueless!
Point to ponder: If two guys, that normally hunt within a couple miles of the parking lot, now ride bikes in 4 miles and hunt, they just reduced pressure at their old spot by 2 guys. :^)
Only one thing in your post is correct, clueless. Livestock and overgrazing is one of the main culprits to why our mule deer and elk herds are hurting. The Cattlemans association is only worried about one thing putting money in their pockets and doing it as cheap as possible. Haha to say an ebike causes more damage than a string of pack mules just furthers my point that most on this thread are completely ignorant to what a 750 watt ebike is. Dont get your panties in a knot Mule that you may not own the trail on your ass like most horsemen think they do. You may actually have to yield to somebody else for a change. See ya on the trail I'll be the old fart blazing by your horses at 60 mph on my motorized crotch rocket! Just make sure to give me enough room to pass on the right! Green Acres is the place to be!
Ah yes, finally a reason to buy an electric KTM dirt bike instead of a stupid ebike. Loopholes, boys. Loopholes.
At least e bikes won't shit all over the trails. LOL
Ah... and a horse terd on your path to success is unacceptable. I can tell you one thing for sure. If there is good hunting 5 miles in and you open it up to motorized travel the good hunting will be 10 miles in. You will be doing yourself no favor because nothing in this world worth having especially hunting goals is free or easy.
But that’s all besides the point. The point is it goes when you quit pedaling because it’s MOTORIZED. So it should be subject to regs for motorized travel. I don’t really see how that’s debatable.
Go ride one you might change your mind, hell Backcountry named one after you. You might like it and avoid the hassle of your horses you mentioned. Good luck this fall however you get to your spot. Go put a hole in one!
"If there is good hunting 5 miles in and you open it up to motorized travel the good hunting will be 10 miles in."
The problem with that, is that there's a lot less territory in the lower 48 that's 10 miles in than there is that's 5 miles in. The good hunting will now be in the private land on the other side or in the cliff on the other side of the mountain that's 5 miles in... which is often times the case now.
Good point above by Glunt though. More guys going in further means better hunting closer to the road... which is often times the case as well. Honestly, the good hunting starts a mile (and sometimes less) from where all the people are at, whether that be road, trail, ATV accessible or not, etc.
“Much easier to sit on a horse and not have to do any work. ”
You ever hear the term Saddle Sore??? It has NOTHING to do with friction. ROFLMAO
And seriously - bikes contribute disproportionately to erosion because they leave a continuous track which can channel water. Add in skid-marks from locked brakes or overeager acceleration or over-enthusiastic cornering, and they can raise all kinds of hell that individual foot or hoofprints simply don’t.
And c’mon... you’re claiming that horseback hunters are the cause of widespread overgrazing???
Glunt has a point though.... the only people who stand to gain as much as the people who are lazy enough to use these are the people who are too lazy to use them!
But I thought the sky was falling because hunter numbers were dropping? Where is all this perceived pressure going to come from? The millenials just don't leave their nintendos, The millenials don't bowhunt, the millenials don't even know how to read sign - they couldn't find an elk if you gave them a week in Yellowstone!
Brad - please don't tell me you've succumbed to using mech bh's, I hope you are shooting CNC lasered fixed heads so they are more accurate ;)
Though in all seriousness, selfishly I'd love to ban OnX, Google earth, trail cameras, and motorized things. Because I feel like it would give me an edge and let me enjoy nature the way I like to enjoy it.
Well, this is just in time , far as im concerned. Working on borrowing another ebike so me and EMG will have them on our NM trip in just over a week. We plan to come on fat and sassy from not having to hike a fraction of what we usually do.
" let me enjoy nature the way I like to enjoy it." Nuff said!!
Back in the day, they called them mopeds.
Matt
And they bragged about what powerful motors Mopeds had. Now they want to pretend they don’t have a motor. Interesting how the world changes.
You guys all kill me! This is the site of the pessimist’s. I have been on here for years and been hunting for over 40 years, starting out shooting waterfowl with lead and upland birds with dogs. The guys who couldn’t afford the 10 or 12 gauge said they were unfair, and the guys who didn’t have a dog complained that the dogs destroyed the environment, chased deer, and those hunters too were cheating and there would be no birds left soon. Then I started hunting deer with a recurve that my father had, which was great, no sights, crappy mismatched arrows, and lots of wounded deer for me, but the compound was unfair and those guys were going to kill all of the deer! Then the crossbows came out, and we all determined that the deer not killed by compounds would be killed by these bows that enable the weak and lazy and there would be no deer left by 1990. Then as the whitetail population exploded in the US and we had seen more growth than ever anticipated with World Records being broken year after year. More powerful archery equipment, better muzzleloaders, better range finders, better optics, better gps, better apps, better phones, better satellite systems, better tents, better sleeping bags, better clothing, better game management and just plain better hunting year after year. BTW, I agree with Pat, I use my Quiet Kat for effectively hunting my private farms and it does exactly what Pat described. As I write this, I am on a flight from Indianapolis to Cody, Wyoming to hunt bighorn sheep the easy way! I applied for a tag for 19 years and put my hard earned money in every year to only get a refund and Dear John letter a few months later. No, I did not choose to walk, take a horse and buggy, or even drive a car to get to Cody, I am simply too busy, too old, too broken, and I have a family. Not to mention, the multitude of people who rely on me everyday to provide jobs so that they can provide for their families as well as providing my tax dollars to support all of those who don’t want to work! Oh, and I forgot to mention that I am going guided with one of the most regarded outfitters in Wyoming, who will be using horses in a unit that they know very well. My roots of bowhunting have been plagued with injury the last few years, I have had surgery on each elbow, labrum tear in my left shoulder, full tricep tear on my right arm, broke my back, crushed my femur, shattered my Tibia and Fibia, broke both ankles multiple times, knee surgery on my left knee 2X, several broken ribs, fingers and toes. I don’t use those excused to quit, I continue to look for a way to keep pursuing my dream of completing my slam! As I received a text 2 days ago from my guide that read, “my first hunter killed his sheep on day 1 and we are riding out, when can you get here?” Of course, I responded now, booked the flight, cancelled my hernia surgery for today and ran down to the orthopedic surgeon to get a shot of cortisone and steroids in my knee so I could attempt to climb the mountains without excruciating pain. I brought my sat phone, solar charger, Swarovski spotting scope, Leica BRF binos with range finder and angle compensation, oh yea, and the one thing that will really make all you guys happy, MY RIFLE! I need one more sheep for my Grand Slam, and only need 4 more species for my Super Slam and over half of those were taken with a bow. I love bow hunting but my injuries have hindered the ability for me to complete my slam with only archer equipment. All of this and I am only a young 48, and I hope to heal up enough to complete my slam and start working on going after the species that I killed with a rifle using my bow next go around. I am going to hunt any way that I can, hunt the best spots and enjoy my life my way! Now, some of you may want to re-evaluate your opinionated ego and determine how you can help to conserve our sport for the future instead of just bitching about the technology that brought all of you to the place that you are in life. God Bless You All!
Great post redman!, good luck on your sheep hunt!
Technology also brought us limited draws, quota seasons, point creep, fish slotting , minimum size, sanctuaries, and a host of other laws to help limit the killing of certain species. There has to be a balance.
Yeah... well I have no problem with people using what they need to to overcome limitations. More power to you. I have no problem with permit to hunt from a vehicle if that’s what a person needs to be able to enjoy hunting.
But this site is made up of bowhunters who choose to limit themselves by using more primitive weapons. So to me not hiking if you have the ability to is just a sign of the times. Times when people want instant easy everything. The age of millennials.
Why do some of you even bother using a motorized vehicle to get closer when you can just sit right where you are and use a .50 cal rifle to get over there?
Just to clarify I’m usually referring to elk hunting. A passion where hard work in wild places is at least half the attraction.
Yep some of us were born a hundred years too late. I doubt I would have watched Jeremiah Johnson more than once if he used a Moped instead of a horse.
Are those of us who share this opinion crying or are the ones who don’t crying about our opinions. Go look into the mirror and see.
I have to agree with mule power.
It also seems one minute hunters are complaining of fewer places to hunt and too many vehicles at the trail heads, next minute they cry we need more hunter recruitment. Seems they support more hunters,...IF, they hunt somewhere they do not.
Do we need more places to hunt, or more hunter recruitment and technology to hunt the places we have? Just a simple question which may help clarify so many threads I have seen on the subjects.
This isn't really a matter of advancing technology, it's the introduction of new technology. Drawing a line about advancing technology is tough, and leads to all kinds of arguments. Drawing a line before a new technology has a chance to get a grip saves us all from constant bitching about what's acceptable here or there, and what's fair chase.
Sure, bikes have been around forever, but this battery powered technology is mostly new.
To me, hunting on foot on the way in and out is a better way to self-educate on current animal distribution and increases the opportunity to take an animal while 'getting there'. I have spent many 1000s of miles hiking and I would much rather do it hat way than drive or ride all the way to a destination and find vehicles already there. Look at all the stuff you pass up on the way in and out! Most of what I've killed was in between where I started out and where I was 'going to', because I was hunting all that time, not riding on a set of wheels or two. If I want to get to a specific spot and not hunt in between, I'll ride my bike or drive, but I'm never going to use some 'e-bike', or 4 wheeler, unless I am crippled and have no choice. I still take pride in staying in shape enough to get there under my own power. I even prefer it to horses because horses almost always spell trouble in some capacity, at least that has been my experience, and I've ridden a lot of horses while hunting. Trust me, most of the time I'd rather walk.
To me, hunting on foot on the way in and out is a better way to self-educate on current animal distribution and increases the opportunity to take an animal while 'getting there'. I have spent many 1000s of miles hiking and I would much rather do it hat way than drive or ride all the way to a destination and find vehicles already there. Look at all the stuff you pass up on the way in and out! Most of what I've killed was in between where I started out and where I was 'going to', because I was hunting all that time, not riding on a set of wheels or two. If I want to get to a specific spot and not hunt in between, I'll ride my bike or drive, but I'm never going to use some 'e-bike', or 4 wheeler, unless I am crippled and have no choice. I still take pride in staying in shape enough to get there under my own power. I even prefer it to horses because horses almost always spell trouble in some capacity, at least that has been my experience, and I've ridden a lot of horses while hunting. Trust me, most of the time I'd rather walk.
But... when something becomes legal hunters can say " I am okay with it as long as it is legal ". Hunters are an odd group.
I think hunters are bipolar. They say it is okay if legal, but if someone is doing it legally in their area, its not okay. Double standards.
Guys, it's the classic Hunter juxtaposition. We want to be the only person on the hill, but, we also need good recruitment for the future of our passion. Or better put, it's our desire vs practical reality.
Is an even playing field practical reality? We’ve talked about hunters who have limitations or disabilities. Fish and Game departments have always had special regs for those people as well as youth hunters. But what about people who for one reason or another are unable to ride a bike? I don’t see some older hunters pounding trails on 2 wheels. What if they are on a fixed income and could never afford a bike with an electric motor? Then it becomes a situation where people with more money have an advantage.
I don’t think anyone here would want to see money as a factor in who can or cannot hunt somewhere. We already have that in the form of private land costs whether outfitted or trespass/lease fees.
“Some of you guys are unbelievable. The first guy who hunts only with a homemade recurve and broadheads made of obsidian and navigates and sleeps under the stars in a sleeping bag made of animal hyde can talk. Otherwise, every single one of you is total whining hypocrite. Not a single one of you doesn't take advantage of technology in one way or another--be it modern bows, GPS, internet scouting, high-tech gear, etc. All of a sudden, somebody gets some technology that might give them an edge over YOU and you're all up in arms. This isn't about the advantage over wildlife and game. It's not about destroying trails or the environment. It's about the advantage over YOU! ”
Rant much?
LOL
Funny thing, but you're sounding so bent out of shape that I don’t think that you even realize that you agree with me.
"I don’t think anyone here would want to see money as a factor in who can or cannot hunt somewhere..."
Oh but many here do. They think that prices of tags should increase significantly so that only the "serious" guys will put up the money to hunt. I've read it time and time again.
"ebikes have the same footprint on the environment as human powered bikes. Plus some guys just need a little assistance to reach far spots that once was reachable unassisted. "
Same argument could be made for electric trolling motors in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, yet they are not allowed...nor are sails or any other "mechanized" propulsion such as foot pedals like Hobie kayaks utilize. With RARE exception (certain motorized designated lakes on the edge of the wilderness) if you aren't paddling via your own effort you aren't allowed. I can see a discrimanation lawsuit coming on that premise.
All legalities aside, technology is a double edged sword. Human nature is to want to make life easier, but in that never-ending pursuit for making life easier we overlook the fact that in doing so we degrade the very essence of what true wilderness, or the great outdoors in general, can provide us. If things keep going the way they are, constantly redefining acceptable methods of access, rather than accepting the REALITY that eventually we all become old or physically unable to reach certain places unaided, we'll probably have an escalator to the moon...becasue "Hey, I want to go there and who are you to stop me?!".
Bikes, or any other form of mechanized transportation, aren't allowed in wilderness areas. This includes wheeled game carts. That said, there are many against wilderness areas since they're unable or unwilling to do what's physically necessary to hunt within their boundaries. This is one of the few issues I'll side with Libs and Dems on since I personally like wilderness areas even when I'm not hunting within them.
"My roots of bowhunting have been plagued with injury the last few years, I have had surgery on each elbow, labrum tear in my left shoulder, full tricep tear on my right arm, broke my back, crushed my femur, shattered my Tibia and Fibia, broke both ankles multiple times, knee surgery on my left knee 2X, several broken ribs, fingers and toes." Crikey, Redman, was it a semi, a train, or a fall from K2? Sorry to hear of all that, hope you are not in terminal pain, seriously. God Bless. TK
