Good Article About Long Shots
General Topic
IMO....long range shooting in either form takes the "hunting" out of the equation. It then becomes "shooting".
I do admire those that have the ability but I don`t believe it should be used on animals.
Franklin what is a long bow shot
beyond 50 for bow. beyond 400 for rifle.
Some might say beyond 30 for a bow and beyond 200 for a rifle....... And that’s the rub. Lots of personal opinions foisted on others about a very subjective topic.
So now I’m confused. Is it Not 50 and 400?
A long shot is one that I’m not sure I can make. That’s on a game animal. If it’s a pig or a yote, there is no shot too long..........
Some people believe if you can hit a stationary target at 100 yards with a bow, then you the man and you should shoot at sketchy live animals at 100 yards with a bow. I am not on board with that mindset.
This is a topic that is getting old pretty quick. Don't know why I even opened the thread.
It's like porn. Not sure of the definition but I know it when I see it. 92 qualifies.
GF, if you need a range finder, then use it. If you don't 'like' them, then stick to close range shots, please. There are better shots out there than you or I, why handicap *them* because you've chosen to handicap yourself?
I have no problem with a shooter who knows his limitations, and accurate ranging is *difficult*, often more difficult than the actual shot process.
A long shot is a shot... that is long.
A long shot with a bow for ME is over 30 yards. A long shot with a rifle for ME is over 200 yards.
Looooooooooooooooong shooooooooooooooooot
Dana -
I DON’T need a rangefinder, because I hunt within the practical limitations of my weapon of choice - whatever that choice may be on a given day or in a given year.
And I stay within MY limitations with it, rather than choosing to purchase a gizmo that hands me a get-out-of-jail-free card when I can’t close the last 10 or 20 or 40 or whatever number of yards by simply being a Sneaky SOB.
If there is any clearer case of store-bought technology substituting for individually hard-won skills than a laser rangefinder, I don’t know what it is.
“There are better shots out there than you or I, why handicap *them* because you've chosen to handicap yourself?”
When I took Hunter Safety, Archery and ML seasons were set up EXPLICITLY for those wishing to hunt using THROWBACK technology to RE-CREATE a far more elemental hunting experience AS IT HAD EXISTED “back in the day”. “Hunting the HARD WAY” ring any bells?
When I started Bowhunting.... Maximum available let-off was 50%; top-end Compounds were only trivially faster than the best recurves; Releases were deemed to offer such an advantage over fingers that they were not even LEGAL in the states where I lived; Tree-stands were not legal in all 50 states; top-end sight pins were made of solid brass.
But.... HELLO??
It seems rather telling to me that you think that I’m trying to “impose a handicap” by suggesting that a “long” shot is any situation where a laser rangefinder is required.
I’m just playing by the rules as they were (universally) understood when I signed up to join the game.
No. I took the time to understand what the original INTENT of the season was, rather than allowing myself every conceivable “enhancement” not specifically forbidden by the LETTER of a set of laws that couldn’t keep up with the industry’s Product Development teams.
That not Egocentricity, that’s Humility: standing on the shoulders of giants, rather than taking them out at the knees.
When I started Bowhunting, it took ON AVERAGE seven YEARS of effort to fill that first tag. It was called Hunting The Hard Way for good reason. That’s what I signed up for.
If you think it’s Egotistical of me to take some satisfaction in having accepted the challenge for what it was, rather than looking for every possible shortcut, I’m thinkin’ that’s a You Problem.
Don’t find anything “universal” about deciding maximum shooting distance. Very situational. There’s a huge difference in my shooting ability on a relaxed early season Mule Deer in T-shirt weather vs a late season whitetail that’s already been pursued for several months when it’s 10 degrees and I’ve been sitting for hours. Also, have I been practicing shooting long distance under field conditions? Personally, I’d feel more comfortable with a 50+ yard shot on a relaxed early season deer, than a ~40 yard shot on an alert or late season deer.
The original intent? The rules as they were universally understood? One only has to look to the fathers of modern bowhunting to see that is cr@p. Howard Hill killed an elk at 185 yards. Ben Pearson a 70 running polar bear. Fred Bear a tiger at long range. They shot lots and hit little at those ranges, but they were not shy to let arrows fly. You might want to go back to the drawing board in terms of trying to understand the "intent" of "giants" as hunting within the practical limitations of their weapon of choice BS, because it wasn't the case.
What Matt said is dead on!
Not to brag and I don't rifle hunt because it is way to easy, but I am absolutely deadly way past 300 yards with my rifle!! Yet, I have only killed one big game animal with a rifle, and that is because I have only gone on one rifle hunt in the last 30 years. My choice, and I think it's anti-climatic to kill with a rifle! But I don't care if others hunt with a rifle, muzzle loader or whatever... I know my capabilities with bow and rifle and I stay within those limits. I would rather take a 50 yard shot on a deer that is eating or drinking than a 20 yard shot on one that is walking and alert. My perfect zone with a bow is about 30 yards or so, not to close, and not to far. But I do have a 90 yard 3D range at my house, and can shoot that far if I want to...
Just know your limitations and the attitude of the critter you are hunting.
If you want to take satisfaction in accepting the challenge as you see it no one has any issues with that. Problem is you’re trying to impose your methodology and opinion on everyone else, and you are fundamentally wrong. You can keep shaking your fist at the world if you want to, but from what I’m seeing on this post and others that you are constantly pontificating on, it doesn’t look like very many people are buying what you’re selling .
" I’m just playing by the rules as they were (universally) understood when I signed up to join the game. " Most of us are content to play by the rules as they are today. That includes compounds, rifles, scoped modern muzzle-loaders, rifled barrel slug guns etc. If my 7 mm rifle is capable of killing cleanly to 350 yards, and I can make the shot IF I know the range, why should I NOT use a range finder? Very few people are really accurate at estimating ranges, that's why 'known yardage' 3D archery shoots are becoming popular. I'm for anything that improves the chances of a *clean* killing shot.
OK - first let’s get some universal understanding on what was Universally Understood 40 years ago.... which was that Archery season was a long-odds proposition involving weapons which were functionally unchanged over the past thousand years and the PRIMARY LIMITATION of which was their incredibly loopy trajectory.
" Most of us are content to play by the rules as they are today.”
Of course you are - they’re stacked in your favor!
40 years ago I was using a compound bow.
40 years ago you could call in elk with you truck horn. 40 years ago if it took you 7 years to fill a tag that’s fine, but other guys with recurves were filling tags every year. But that was 40 years ago, and now is now.
I can understand not needing to shoot past 30 yards in Connecticut for deer. Try that out west. 40 years ago when Fred Bear went out west he’d shoot 80-100 yards with a recurve...so I’m really not understanding any of your logic.
I've been blessed with 63 years of Bowhunting. I started In 1956 & up until compounds started taking over (mid 70s. I had a shop/lanes from 64 thru 82) most stick bow shooters considered 30 a LONG shot. We didn't have "ethics" police back then & I know almost every bowhunter slung a hail mary out there every now & then. Truth be known, we have lots of hail mary shooters today. In those early years most compounders still considered 30 a long shot.. Gradually, that changed to (a guess) 40 yds.. On a 3-D course I hear shooters constantly saying, oh, that's a long one (30 yds on deer) & oh, that's a "real" long one when its an elk target at 60. When we shoot field we consider our long ones the 65 & 80 yd walk up long & on Target 60 is our long. I shoot regularly with 8 guys from 21 thru 45 & all consider 40 long in actual hunting. They shoot & bowhunt lots. We, as a group consider 25 or less the ideal shot. Now these are things I am exposed to & know. As a rule I shoot lots of tournaments & with a wide variety of people. I also witness MANY that should not even "think" of taking a shot at an animal over 20 yds & that IS a fact also. I have taken 10 Different species of Biggame & close to 150 total (38 with recurves). I kept a log for close to 30 years b/4 loosing it in a move & my average shot/kill is just under 25 yds (that includes 17 animals taken out west). When at tournaments (bullseye) the majority of groups start opening up after 40 yds a little & definitley 50. So, if that's on a target where you have plenty of time & its stationary & no heart pounding adrenalin rush to make it worse, Imagine all the variables hunting. My longest shot/kill was with a recurve at 55 yds on a 6 point buck (Young & Dumb days). My longest Compound was 42 yds on a Cow Buffalo after 4 days of hunting in 90 degree weather. I'm only 1 person but tha t is what I have seen & witnessed in 63 years of bowhunting & 18 years as a shop owner. My opinion-MOST should keep their shots hunting under 40 & closer to 30. Leave the long range for PAPER. The photo is from the NFAA National target championships. One of our ends at 50 yds. Mine are the red feathers (one ran out of gas & is in the red ring). I was 76 at the time so I've slipped a little. I have 3 pins on my hunting sight (20-30-40). Good luck this season.
The willingness of people to take longer shots and brag about it will only lead to less opportunities for archers. The opportunity was probably what brought a lot of people to this sport. The people on this forum probably all practice year round and have a fairly good idea what they are doing. Shooting a bow has become easier and there are a lot of people who may not shoot more than 70-80 shots a year including practice and hunting.
Long shot with a rifle is 200 yards?! I have friends that can hit an 18 inch target with a 9mm pistol farther than that! Most long range guys agree that anything over 600 is long range for rifle. To me, anything over 60 yds with a compound bow is long range.
Saturday morning is our opener for deer. And, if I get one within 45 or so yards of my longbow, I intend to kill it. And, my range finder will be a very important factor in why I will kill it. If the deer moves, it should rather have stood and took it. Its a chance I'm willing to take if it's not alarmed. That is what all hunting is when you intend to kill something. A bargin of sorts. Trying to define that bargin for other hunters is not something that results in anything but disagreement.
You traditional only guys choose what you choose. Let others do the same without the condescending talks of ethics to folks that have different limitations. Lots of things can and do happen when you take it upon yourself to kill something. Trying to make everyone see things the way you do doesn't change that reality. Whether it happens at 12 yards or 38.
Grew up bowhunting whitetails in the Midwest. For more than two decades, never had a need for a rangefinder. In 2002, I started bowhunting Western big game. Would feel completely naked out west without a good angle compensating rangefinder.
A long shot is what you don't practice enough at! A 30'06 is a 400 yard weapon but only if you shoot it enough at 400 yards and know that the target is at 400 yards. If you only have a 200 yard range to shoot at, 400 is probably too far for you, even -with- a range finder. All of this adds up to 'long shot' depends on the shooter.
Those that can't "hunt"... Just "shoot" further.
And the poorest shots brag about their 'hunting' skills (as if shooting wasn't ONE of those skillS.) ;-)
Nothing posted here will change any ones mind. Some people just cannot let a nice buck pass and just enjoy seeing the buck even if it is out of range for them. I know a lot of bow hunters like that and they lose a lot of deer since the odds catch up to them. Most change and lower there range and become very successful. There is one universal truth, we ALL think we shoot better than we really do.
Long range = Hunter's skill/{(Giveashitifhewoundstheanimal)*(Numberanimalswounded)+(Yearssincelastanimalwounded)-(Yearsincekilledatlongrange)}/{(Theperceivedneedtohavetrophyonthewall)*(numberofheadsalreadyonwall)}
There, I put it in a mathematical formula so we can figure this thing out.
“40 years ago you could call in elk with you truck horn. 40 years ago if it took you 7 years to fill a tag that’s fine, but other guys with recurves were filling tags every year. But that was 40 years ago, and now is now.”
Yes, Adam, things have changed. A LOT. And a thoughtful person kinda has to ask how much of that change is a direct result of the massive influx of hunters who were attracted to archery as it became easier and easier and easier to achieve the standard 20-yard, minute-of-pie-plate accuracy.... First at 20, then at 30, and then at 40 or 50 yards.
More later - work awaits....
I'm willing to bet, that folks who grew up bowhunting the east think 30yds is LONG while western folks, and maybe midwestern folks, think 50+ is getting out there and 60 is long.
Some of it, is just what you grew up with and experienced. I was brow beat into me to NEVER take a shot over 30 at a deer because they can move and you are more likely to wound them. I became a better archer, and ultimately have shot one deer at 37, all the others were mid 20's or lower. But that "long" number has flexed. When I made that shot I was routinely shooting 50-80yds very well, 37 seemed close. I'm not sure I'd shoot over 30 this year as my practice, while consistent, has been on my short backyard range, and over 30 I dont think I'd feel good shooting at a deer despite being pretty sure I could hit the "lungs" on my 3d target.
That's the challenge here. Remembering that what "you" believe is ideal, is likely an area within a larger area that can make sense, pending the individual and circumstance.
I do think there is a shot to far. I think it's point is two fold... 1.) Ask a group of hunters what to far is, and it's likely the top end of that range; 2.) Dont assume outliers describe realities. Meaning, if some literal pro tourney archery can shoot a muley at 85 yds very consistently, dont assume that you should do that because you shoot 100 in your backyard. There are fit 6' tall guys like me that play in the NFL. Just because I workout, doesnt mean I could have ever, at any point, played football at that level. EVER. I could practice with my bow 20 hours a week, but I'm not going to out shoot Levi Morgan.
On average, "we" should think about that when we decide to squeeze off our release or relax our fingers to loose and arrow.
None of that clears up the what's to far question. I think because it's not a toggle switch. There is a range, if you took a poll maybe you find it... But then you will have occasional outliers like a Levi Morgan (just using him due to his capabilities as an archer) who perhaps can sensibly shoot a deer at 75 yds, consistently, with competence (not confidence, competence)... Dont base your actions on outliers.
Well put Will. Growing up hunting in the midwest, 30 yards looks like a mile to me in the woods. I don't hunt field edges. So to me 30 is a long shot. In my 30+ years (probably closer to 40 now) of hunting, I've probably only shot a couple deer over 30 yards, and those probably weren't much over 30.
I disagree. Levi, and Lee, and whoever else may be consistent and competent at 75 yards, but the deer are not. The deer/elk/sheep/whatever are a much larger part of the equation than the archers competence.
Well, there you go...
Because (contrary to Adam’s assumption) I grew up on the prairie facing the front range; I shot Judos pretty much every day in the back yard and no tennis ball was Safe within 50 yards. So (in my first season up on the mountain) when I was slipping through a bedding area and a fork Mulie stood up to take a look around, my arrow went exactly where I was looking... at 28 paces. I knew it was longer than I’d been hoping for, but I knew I was good for it.
Up in MN, though, or even here in CT, 20 yards is a long shot with a bow if you haven’t prepped shooting lanes, which I never do. Doesn’t matter, though - I’ve only shot 3 whitetails beyond about 20 yards no matter what I was using at the time. No need for it.
There is alot of, if it's good for me it should be good for you type opinions here.
Anybody have real statistics, such as loss/recovery rates on animals shot over 60 yards vs those shot under 30 yards? Or anything along those lines that provide real facts?
A big problem with the long shots is what happens after you let go of the string. These animals are very quick and speed of sound is 1100 fps, that leaves lots of time for movement. Another rather recent complication is all the grunting and mewing to get them to stop. This GUARANTEES an alert animal with tense muscles just ready to fly.
I read a lot of GF's gruell and it is funny. We go back 50 years or more and Fred and Howard and many other archers were shooting game animals at 100 yds and beyond. I dare say more so back than as opposed to today. A lot of those folks figured get an arrow in them and let their tracking ability find it. That's why Fred invented the pod, hit and get it was his thinking for a time. To me Ethics is what you do when nobody is watching. As for rifle hunting I agree there comes a point when you are just shooting but guys were killing antelope on a regular basis at 1000 yards 60 years ago, so to each his own. I just set up anew 6.5 Creedmore and made it a true 1000 yd gun for under 600 bucks. It is a one gun at 300 yds and the best I have done with it is 7.5"s at 1000. Will I shoot it that far at a deer, maybe this winter when I am filling nuisance permits I will give it a go. We shall see!! Shawn
GF did ya ever think if you prepared better you may kill more critters, whether it is practicing a bit farther shoot, trimming shooting lanes etc. I too have hunted with a recurve for the last 43 years as well as compound. I have killed as many deer at " long range" with my traditional bows as I have with my compound which is out to 50 yds give or take!! Shawn
No reason for all the " out west" talk either. Good hunters still get very close.
“Aggressively arguing for the right is the finest Sport the world allows”, Scoot.
Give ya a nickel of you know what “libberel communist d-bag” said that! ;)
RogBow - "No reason for all the " out west" talk either. Good hunters still get very close."
I get to spend about two weeks/year in the mountains. Forty yard shot at an elk is plenty close enough...but depending on the grade, my 40 yard pin is likely going to wound or miss completely. An angle compensating rangefinder takes out the guesswork and ensures my arrow hits where I want. That's just being an ethical bowhunter in my opinion.
Excellent reminder and point PECO. Levi/Et Al., may have the best of understanding for where they aimed the arrow and where it is going when they release, but no one can determine what the animal will do...
40 yards is indeed plenty close and an angle comp rangefinder is great to have. It's the beyond 60 stuff that makes game departments laugh when we want a season all to ourselves.
OK... Just to settle this.
HERE is what I consider a “long” shot with my RER. Turn up your sound.... and wait for it.. ;)
If you want to know what a long shot to 'You' is then take a 12" diameter target and place it in front of your new truck. Ya miss and the truck gets a hole in it! Any range that you would not shoot ten arrows into that target is 'Your' long range since it's really a personal question. Nobody does this but they should.
Just when I thought you were going to make this enjoyable, you had to go for the lame-ass cheapshot.
The "those who can't hunt just shoot farther" argument is interesting. I hear that Chuck Adams killed a number of animals at long range. Is he a poor hunter?
RD - interesting you brought that up... LOL
Adams HAS killed a lot of animals at long range. Not because he’s a “Good Hunter” or a “Poor Hunter”, but because he’s a Marketing Hunter. If he doesn’t fill a tag or slay another record-book animal, he’s out of a paycheck. Just like the Market Hunters of Old, but where they killed for quantity, the MarketING hunters are after “Quality”.
Other than that, the rules are no different: kill at any cost or you don’t eat.
Fred Bear, Howard Hill and that bunch was no different except that they were the founders of their own Brands, whereas Adams was a hired gun. Or BOW, rather....
Funny, too, how often Howard Hill and Fred Bear get brought up on these conversations as if I (or anyone else) were holding them up as paradigms of Sporting Virtue.
Speaking only for myself, I can say that I sure as hell never said that.
Sport Hunting was supposed to free us all up from that kill-at-all-costs mindset so that we could focus on Fair Chase, the Sporting Ethic and Conservation of the resource, but this generation has chosen its heroes no better than the ones before it....
And for the record, MY hero in all this has always been that Leopold fella. He made sense to me 40 years ago and still does.
And as long as I’m here...
“It's also not surprising that you were finally finding it enjoyable when someone said they in some way agreed with you.”
I get people agreeing with me on a pretty regular basis.... It’s just that most of them have the good sense to contact me via PM here so that they don’t have to deal with the childish personal attacks (of which you have made SEVERAL) in this one thread, despite the fact that the rules of this board specifically forbid such self-indulgence).
And there are plenty here who disagree with me even more genuinely than you do, but they have the sense and the manners to either stick to the topic at hand or ignore my posts.
I love a good debate and I was looking forward to having one with you, but you apparently can’t bring yourself to do it.
So that’s fine. I’ll just do what my Honorable Opposition does and choose not to waste any more of my time.
"unny, too, how often Howard Hill and Fred Bear get brought up on these conversations as if I (or anyone else) were holding them up as paradigms of Sporting Virtue."
Even funnier are people (or more specifically, the person) who pretend(s) to know what the original intent of archery only seasons was and then slams the giants who shoulders he claims to be standing on.
Who again is taking them out at the knees?
I just realized where I know GF from! It’s those commercials.
“Remember when we never killed anything? Pepperidge Farms remembers.”
I know I mentioned Hill - because he was well known and because the title of his book pretty much summed up what Bowhunting was generally perceived to be About at the time. Longbows. Recurves. Not a lot of success.
But when it comes to Giants, I wasn’t thinking about the big-name people you’re so hung up on.
I was thinking about the guys who lobbied the state of Colorado to enact an Archery Season in the first place.
Those were the people who struck a deal with the DOW to allow a (very) few Archery Nutjobs a chance to fill a tag with a stick and string AT THE EXPENSE OF their shot at ANY other tag for that year.
Everybody knew that only a handful would even consider the idea, and nobody expected the success rate to amount to much; that the total kill would be entirely inconsequential to the management plan was a foregone conclusion. But they did at least deliberately exclude crossbows, since you needn’t be a hunter to perceive that their intrinsic advantages put them into a whole different class of weapon which was clearly NOT in keeping with the spirit of the law. So they closed the loophole that might otherwise have negated the whole point of the exercise.
So yeah, it’s blindingly obvious by all but the most self-serving of Logic that the season was conceived as a set-aside for truly PRIMITIVE weapons - a little faster, maybe, and a good bit more durable, but every bit the functional equivalents of exactly what Bows have been for Millennia.
I know that’s not the story of Archery seasons in all of the other states, and really, it’s diametrically opposed to the CURRENT role of Archery seasons in a great many places which are overrun with whitetails.
And where Compound shooters - “hunters” with access to as many tags as they can fill, often while parked over a bait pile - are up in arms over crossbows being allowed into “their” seasons.
Well, not ALL of them are up in arms.... they’re just reaching up to take that new crossbow down off the rack....
The only one I see “up in arms”, is you, GF. Constantly patting yourself on the back with them so much, that it’s taking BOTH arms.
Amazing he can still draw a bow with the damage the back-patting must have caused his shoulders over the years....
Reminds me of the South Park Harley episode.
LOL the South Park Harley episode was awesome!
The only long shots I do is putting in for a NM elk tag...
I'm over this one, new fun on the 2020 Hoyt thread!
WWW... what would Wensel's do?
HDE...now THAT'S a long shot LOL!!!
