Continuing Education for Elkpacker1
General Topic
American Capitalism - Where it all started
American Capitalism - Where it all started
shb's Link
Trapping and Fur Harvesting is a wise and sustainable use of renewable natural resource.
It stimulates the economy at local, state, national, and international levels.
What the uninformed don't realize is that wolf/otter/lynx etc, were all reintroduced in their current regions in the lower 48 using foothold traps.
Studies have shown that nesting success, fawn recruitment, bighorn lamb, and almost every other specie experiences exponential reproductive increases in areas where predators, and nest raiders are trapped.
Trapping and fur harvesting is also exponentially kinder than mother nature. Anyone who has seen a coyote that got caught straying into a neighboring territory, and being shredded by his cuddly neighbors knows that. Or, watching a live deer being eaten from the ass end by coyotes, or bald purble yotes struggling through winter with mange, or hit by a car with a broken back, distemper, etc. all way more brutal than legal trapping.
And, all caused by lack of trapping keeping the population numbers in check with the carrying capacity of a given region.
If your a hunter, of any sort, its in your best interest to educate your self about trapping and support trappers, because they support you in the field, and at the ballot box.
enough soap box.
Enjoy the holidays
We’re not very good at it-yet. But my boys and me do our best to catch some critters every fall no matter what thier worth
When I was growing up, there were a bunch of us kids who ran our little muskrat lines. I can remember riding my bike out of town down 2 miles of gravel to run my line. I wish every kid could have that experience. It can lead to a lifetime of learning animal behavior and a love for the natural world. It's not something you do for a couple hrs on the weekend. It's every. single. day. as long as your traps are out.
Great looking bobcats in that pic.
Midwest X2^^
It was like Christmas every morning, checking your traps, not knowing how many or what you were going to catch! Great way to teach a kid responsibility, self reliance, some business sense, among many other positive things, IMO. Checking traps as a youngster are still some of my all time favorite memories.
It is too bad more kids do not grow up with a trap line, lots of good experiences.
I was another 'midwest'. Started when I was 5 with my Dad, running 'rat lines, catching a few mink and coons along the way. I bought an English 3 speed when I was 7 for $44.00 with 'rat money that year..We drove the lines then, and hiked. When I was 12 I got a Rupp Roadster and ran the lines with that, and a Ski-Doo 12.3 the next year, some of which was paid for by trapping $$. A great way to learn responsibility and value for money - you definitely earned that money. I learned to acclimate to cold weather and had my bare hands in ice water all the time, so much that they got all rough and sore some winters. It taught me to handle cold conditions, not be shy about going out in the cold. I love the cold weather now - its much healthier to be out in I think. More kids should be brought up this way, its good all around. I agree with the Christmas morning comparison.
I have absolutely nothing against trapping some of my friends trapped mostly foxes growing up & a friend currently makes a good part time income trapping pests in suburban northern VA. But & I read the op several times nature will regulate itself especially if left alone by man always has always will. As I said I have nothing against trapping but recently I heard of hanging a xtra heavy treble hook from a tree limb with meat on it & when the yotes jump up to grab the meat their left hanging from a treble hook in the mouth. If this is true what a nasty way to trap. Not to mention the hazards to people could you imagine walking through the woods in the dark & losing an eyeball to a fish hook hanging from a tree limb
Yep making $, almost put a few species out of business and why its so regulated. Same with hunting. Traps such as snares are only used as the law requires now. Nothing knew to me. Times have changed and trapping/reg reflects a lot of that change. I read the WA regs, not allowed to consume any trapped animal which makes no sense but what it says.
Timex, man has always been a part of nature and always will be. I don't know were people come up with the idea we are not.
Times, one does that here and they will go to prison. Occasionally, some loser will do the same thing for deer, but use an apple. I found a tree like that hare hunting and the set gun too. The warden knew who it was, set up on him, and he did time at the county jail.
Well said jtv. Elkpacker there is no money to be made in trapping nowadays. This country was built on it though. Beaver was the cash crop when it first started. If not for greed and beaver half the country would be speaking French and the other part would be under a British flag.
I grew up in Iowa trapping muskrat, mink, racoon and a few fox. Nowdays they plow the fields until there dirt and straightin out the creeks if they dont like the way they run. Hog confinements everywhere. Its sad because that kind of childhood teaches hard work, respect for animals and respect for your parents for allowing you to do it. There isnt a video game out there that teaches any of that. My .02
Who said I live in Seattle, I said I have or live on my own ranch. For the record am a die hard Republican. I spend the entire Archery elk season packing in Wilderness chasing elk. That video I could take apart as the Propaganda film it is. Trapping will die, all hunting will die and most of us will be dead when that actually happens. Picking at me is a prime example. Archers pick on rifle hunters, gun hunter pick on Archers saying they kill all the bulls. Compound shooters say trad archers are the worst and just the walking wounded.White hunters hate the Native Americans as they kill everything tht walks under treaty, Never go to Idaho anymore as the wolves killed everything. Mean while well organized anties are surrounding all these yappers.
The well organized antis are thankful to have you on their side Elkpacker.
Only western Washington is a liberal stronghold. Eastern wash is a conservative as any area in the country.
A well organized minority always bully the majority it’s a fatal flaw of democracies. People that work, raise kids never, march or protest or get involved in issues beyond complaining about the results. People trade their votes for a promise from a politician that is only interested in gaining power. Antis will win eventually.
Elkpacker1: "Archers pick on rifle hunters, gun hunter pick on Archers saying they kill all the bulls. Compound shooters say trad archers are the worst and just the walking wounded.White hunters hate the Native Americans as they kill everything tht walks under treaty, Never go to Idaho anymore as the wolves killed everything. Mean while well organized anties are surrounding all these yappers."
Also Elkpacker1: "trapping is not quickly and ethically killing something, nore is it bowhunting"
"Would not bother me if trapping went away."
"Its a slow cruel death for $$"
Pot, meet kettle.
If trappers don’t control the predator population, the eradication of prey will, or in the case of Maine now, a very dangerous rabies outbreak. That is why, at meetings I attend, the antis clearly state that protecting predators such as wolves and coyotes will eliminate the need for hunting as a management tool. One ecologist I worked with attended the sustainability conference, aka Agenda 21, in Rio in the 90’s, and outlined to our department the UN plans to federalize all land with no human access on much of it. No hunting, a huge cutback in personalized transportation, and all population housed in cities. We laughed at him, but the landgrab up here isn’t funny as the feds control more and more. They are working on a 60 mile wide corridor along the Connecticutt River from the border to the Atlantic. 7.2 million acres when they are done. It’s called the Silvio Conte Refuge and will link with a newly started Great Thicket Refuge to the South and the Umbagog Refuge to the North. The plan is to turn all of it into a national park once they complete the acquisitions. They have openly stated that all of Northern Maine, NH, Vermont, NY, will be federalized. A long term plan but it is happening.
It amazes me how quickly a broadhead kills. Who says buwhunting is not quick & ethical
& y'all with all this dem - rep. Conservative - liberal crap you really should have a more open mind. I personally am neither I hated school quit in 9th grade didn't have rent at the end of the month & my dad kicked me out at 16 years old with what I could fit in a pigly wiggly bag. Iv worked (psyicle work) my entire life & never been given nothing. I live in a 24'×24' house & the newest vehicle I own is A 1996 truck ..A friend of mine who claims to be a conservative Republican built a 350.000 house on the 5 acres his dad gave him & struggles every month to pay his bills. Conservative all right...another dingbat I know carries a pocket version of the constitution always. Thinks rush Limbaugh is God. has 2 ar's for each family member (5) 10 magazines for each ar & ten containers of ball ammo for each ar. You see his family at wall Mart & they move around like a covey of quail ready to draw their ppc at the drop of a hat. He's scary.
Someone has a different opinion & they get blasted with both barrels of liberal dummycrat. How stupid.
If someone advocates the outlawing of legal hunting or trapping methods here then prepare to get blasted.
When you remove dessenting opinion you might as well sit in front of a mirror and talk with yourself. One side keeps the other side in check.
True... But when the dissenting opinions that advocate for the outlawing of legal trapping or hunting methods comes from a hunter.... it’s pretty disheartening.
Just a quick question. But before I ask it, I would like to that I love to trap, hunt and fish. So with that being said. How is putting a treble hook thru the back of a perch and then throwing it out there waiting on a big ol catfish to come along and swallow it so you can eat it any different than putting a piece of meat on one to catch a coyote. I have never done that to catch a coyote, but I dont think it's any different than fishing. Think about this. In fishing you are supposed to ram a hook through his mouth to catch it. But you are not allowed to put out a basket to catch him alive. I'm not saying people should do it but using a trouble hope to catch a coyote doesn't seem all that out of line to me when you think about it in the scheme of things. I don't look at any of it as being cruel or inhumane. I look at it as it is just a part of life.
Really Ks? Not 100% sure, but I don't think fish have as many nerves in the mouth. Probably doesn't feel pain like a coyote would. I'd rather my dog get a trap on his paw, than a hook in his mouth. And stories I've heard about hooks, the hooks are hanging so the coyote has to jump up, then dangle alive for who knows how long. That's just wrong to do to any animal. Don't care how much you hate coyotes, have some respect for the animal.
Brian, yes really. Think about the perch that has a treble hook through his back and a lead weight holding him down. He is trying to swim off and jerking at the hook the whole time. And then when the big old cat fish comes along and swallows him. Then the catfish has a trouble hook down in his guts and the someone jerking on the line ripping his guts out as he is trying to swim away. Like I said though I have not a problem with trapping and fishing. I just think sometimes people need to think about other scenarios as well
KS
It's pretty simple. The further up the perceived food chain rules and opinions change
Example. Very few people have a problem with setting a snap rat trap. Cheese on pan mouse or rat comes up. Takes a bite. Kapoweee crushed rodent
But think of the outcry if the trap was much bigger and the trap had corn for bait and a deer comes up and takes a bite and kapoweee. Dead deer
Really the same thing except for the victim. LOL!!
RK, yes I agree. It's all about perception. But when it comes down to to it, I just dont see a difference. I just thought guys on here would be able to throw perception out the window and see it's the same thing. But that's just my opinion.
KS.
You are expecting to much
Hunting, trapping, or by other natural causes doesn't really matter how an animal dies. Dead is dead.
I've been trapping coyotes for two weeks so far this year and haven't caught one yet. But, last night one ran out in front of my truck about a mile from my farm and he got himself run over. I would say that he got himself run over because I was driving 55 mph and he darted back and forth quickly onto the road. There was no chance to avoid it. It died on the road so I backed up and threw it off the road so it wouldn't get run over any more.
Does it matter if the coyote got run over or caught and dispatched in a trap? Not to me it doesn't. Dead is dead. Some people worry about how animals die. They must not have much to worry about.
eslkstabber, if you are trapping them why didn't you throw the coyote into the back of your truck and take it home to skin? Just wondering.
As iv gotten older iv developed a conchese for lack of a better word when I was younger I was a hunting machine through my 20s &30s we drove deer & iv killed so many during those days. Then I got into duck & goose hunting & again we piled em up. & now a few of the places I hunt I'm required to kill a certain # of doe's to keep my exclusive rights on the farm & in my older years I just don't enjoy killing for entertainment anymore. For those that make money trapping or just trap for entertainment or hobby go for it it's just not for me. I do agree & especially in more urban areas it's almost a nessity. To keep predators in check
Same Bowsite purity elitests jump on anyone who dont concur their ideaology.
Use get to many Coyote they must be thinned. If we could still use poison would that be any better? Some of those old poisons the feds used killed seven or eight times after target pest died.
I like to shoot them, trap them in the end I do my part to control them.
K
TrapperKayak, I live in southeastern Virginia and the coyote fur isn't thick enough to have any value. I case skinned a coyote once and decided that I didn't care to do it again. I typically just leave the carcasses out in my field because I like watching the eagles eat them.
“doesn't really matter how an animal dies. Dead is dead.”
Disagree. A few states have adopted Right to Hunt/Fish/Trap legislation, but the exercise all of those “rights” is subject to other legislation and Sound Management.
Antis will not be satisfied until the predators have exhausted their forage base and have moved into suburbia, only instead of dining on ornamental trees and shrubs, they’ll be into the garbage and such cats, dogs, small children and elderly folks as they can snap up or pull down. And even then a lot of the ARA types will insist that the predators are just doing what they were made to do and it’s our fault for moving into “their” territory.
But an awful lot of people who DO NOT hunt or fish or trap are the people who will decide for the rest of us Whether and How we are permitted to go about it. These folks DO have their own standards and we ignore them at our own peril.
Fortunately, most non-hunters are actually pretty reasonable about it; they understand that death by predation, starvation and roadkill are all rather slow processes involving a considerable amount of suffering. Most of them really DON’T relish the thought of any predators in THEIR neighborhoods, either.
And FWIW, I don’t buy the false equivalence of coyotes and catfish either.
This one bought it because it has been fearless and did not,run from me or the,dog last winter and two other times,over the years. Large Alpha female pack,leader. It is the same one for sure, can tell by the bottle brush tail. Now,they need a new leader of the pack.
I’ll throw this out there for those that are pragmatic and prefer to approach the source f the problem and not chase the symptoms, If you have a coyote problem you have a man made imbalance. You have too much coyote food so they over populate to exploit the resource. There is a biological theory that explains why we have more coyotes today than we did 300 years ago in spite of poisoning, trapping and shooting every one we see. That theory suggests that killing the mature animals in the pack causes the population to increase its avg. litter size , shorten it’s gestation period and multiply it’s normal breeding cycle to exceed its rate of predation. The only known predator to do this. In short, if an area of X square miles is intended to have 10 coyotes and you trap 5 of them you may end up with have 30 or 30 over the next few years cycle based on the predation rate. So you are actually making the problem worse. When I first moved onto my farm the coyotes, bobcats raccoons etc. ran rough should over my chickens, cats, turkeys etc. I trapped and shot everyone I saw. Over the years I started to notice we had very few fawns , the grouse and quail disappeared and the rabbit , squirrel and mouse populations exploded. Most nights the howling coyotes were so loud it would wake you up. I read the study and stopped killing the coyotes. I convinced my neighbors to do the same. I secured the chickens and turkeys etc and kept the family pets indoors unless we were outside. After about 7 years the balance returned. I started to see does with two fawns. The rabbits were in check ,I have only seen a handful of raccoons. My traps are stacked in the barn and have been for the past 15 or so years. Mono culture farms and large livestock operations are creating their own problems because they are out of balance and not natural. We still have coyotes but they are in balance. This one used to run with my border collie. I’m sure it started out trying to lure him into the timber for the pack to eat but Jack was too smart and too fast to be fooled and never once strayed outside the fence line. They started out running along the fence line parallel to each other and eventually it turned into a game and they started playing with each other in the pasture. It went in for about 5 years until my dog died but this coyote would show up in the middle of the day and yip at the house to get the dog to play for about a year.
Whitey I'm sure many will disagree with your logic but iv been hunting a cattle farm in loudin County VA for 25 years every nite the totes yip & carry on your not allowed to kill em & they have never lost a calf to them & the deer population is unbelievable. Carl's therie is that the coyote pack that resides on his farm has no interest in cattle & killing them would envite other packs into the area that may target the calves ??? It's his farm his rules & I'm blessed to be able to hunt there is a very exclusive place to hunt.
"There is a biological theory that explains why we have more coyotes today than we did 300 years ago in spite of poisoning, trapping and shooting every one we see. That theory suggests that killing the mature animals in the pack causes the population to increase its avg. litter size , shorten it’s gestation period and multiply it’s normal breeding cycle to exceed its rate of predation. The only known predator to do this. "
Coyotes do NOT have more than one litter each year, and the gestation period stays very much the same from one year to the next. Hunting and trapping do nothing to change that fact.
JTV, it’s a symptom of an ecosystem being out of balance there are a variety of causes. Hunters and trappers may be to blame just as Mono crop intensive farming , intensive ranching.
TR, that used to be the belief what research is showing is the Coyotes are the most adaptive predator known. They never used to live east of the Great Plains until they started breeding with wolves. That created the eastern coyote. It is generally accepted now that the next adaptation is interbreeding with domestic dogs. It’s already happening in the west. This leads biologists to suggest that females are capable of up to four litters a year of up to as many as 20 pups each litter. They also suggest that the only way to reduce coyote numbers is to increase wolf numbers. Lots of studies online if you want to study it.
The things you can learn on the BS are never ending
Mentally challenged Yote? When you hand feed em for two years they het fat.
Why ya kill your pet?
K
Timex, I wouldn’t argue with him I don’t get the hate for them. They are just doing their job.
Why would I argue with a farmer that has let me hunt for 25 years in fact the conversation usually starts with please come kill some of these doe's around my house. Most that hunt there are horn hunters. Carl doesn't hunt but we've been offshore fishing together for 25 years. His logic is just that his & never losing a calf to yotes speaks for itself
Have I earned my degree yet
You only earn a degree when you think like the teacher wants you too in the US and A!
Yeah I know I flunked here but did Ok with my other BS/Masters.
it is not new, coyotes breeding with dogs, they are called coy-dogs. Been happening for a long time, BUT someone needs to tell me how a litter of pups is going to survive in the winter, when low food supply is the determining factor for pup survival. 20 pups, show me a study showing where a coyote had 20 pups, and all of them survived, in the winter. Ain't happening. There's a reason pups are born in the spring. It's called food availability.
Tr winters are mild on the entire west cost. California and Az have nice weather all winter. Coyotes near urban areas have a nearly unlimited food supply. Like I said search the web lots of answers to questions you haven’t even considered.
Very sure, I think a lot of folks only read what they want to or simply cant. I also think that most who attend these stings have very little hours in the woods per year and other social issues.
Whitey, show me one study that found litter sizes to be 20 pups. And then show me one study that says hunting and trapping have affects on gestation periods. And then show me one study where it's been found that coyotes are having more than one litter per year. Mild winter or not, there's a reason mother nature has coyotes only having one litter per year across this entire nation.
If coyotes are having more than one litter per year, why is it then that hunters aren't killing little tiny pups just out of the den in the winter?
